Affiliate Management Tracking & Tools Podcast with Clemence Dujardin

Show: Revenue Optimization with StatsDrone
Episode: Affiliate Management Tracking & Tools Podcast with Clemence Dujardin
Host: John Wright
Guest: Clemence Dujardin
Published: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:35:00 +0000
Duration: 27:14

Speaker labels are a two-speaker split from pauses (host vs guest). Timestamps are `[HH:MM:SS]` from the episode audio. Light ASR; names and brands may need a pass.

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[00:00:00] John Wright: There are access in the industry that are very advanced and others that have thought over the years that throwing money at problems are problems. And I think this is what you were discussing a little bit before, right? If you need traffic, you're going to throw millions of thousands to campaigns that are going to generate nothing but clicks and are not going to convey.

[00:00:23] John Wright: Now, if people don't ask them, then tell the question, why am I spending so much money and not converting anything? Then, you know, there is a problem. People by now should have been educated, right? And with tools like ours, like you, like others, you know, they have the visibility, they have the knowledge in their hand, the power in their hand.

[00:00:47] Clemence Dujardin: I'm Jon Wright, and you're listening to Affiliate BI, the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by Statstrom.

[00:00:57] John Wright: Welcome to the Affiliate BI podcast. Today, we're speaking with Clements Dujardin. She is the group CEO of My Affiliates and has extensive background in iGaming and affiliate marketing. I'm always enjoyed chatting with Clements because she's got a lot of insight, and I'm very happy to have you on the show. Thank you, Jon. I'm really, really happy to be here.

[00:01:17] Clemence Dujardin: So let's get started by talking about what is your story of how you ended up in the B2B space that led you to become the CEO of My Affiliates. Goodness, it's a long story. It's a very long story. I started in the iGaming industry a bit more than 15 years ago, probably 17 years ago, and I started in a poker company.

[00:01:40] John Wright: I knew nothing about iGaming. I was in Malta, I worked in tourism, worked for our government entity, and I said, okay, I need the change of career, I need to find something new. So there I go, and I applied for a job. It was an online poker. It used to target the states at the time, running on my for gaming. And I started at support, right? Because that's where you start. And when you know nothing, and not many people knew anything, so that's where we all started from.

[00:02:10] John Wright: And I started there, and I quickly enjoyed it. I quickly enjoyed it because it was fun, dynamic, things changed every day, I was learning a lot.

[00:02:24] Clemence Dujardin: So I stayed there for a year or so, and then the owner decided to pack up his bag, go back to wherever he came from, with the money of the company, whatever. So that was my first... At the time, it happened. It still happened today, but it happened more at the time. So not when other companies had the lack of stability and things like that, I was growing up myself on my own at the time. So I said, okay, this instability can't keep going, but I don't want to leave the industry. And over the years, I had been exposed to affiliate marketing because I had been an affiliate manager.

[00:03:01] Clemence Dujardin: And I said, okay, let me try to jump on the other side. Let me try to go on the software side of it. And that's where I worked. I was employed by NetEFA at the time, which is still on and still doing well.

[00:03:15] John Wright: And that's where I started in B2B. I started in B2B with NetEFA and Internet, and then moved on to Ampinix, and the rest is history basically. And when you think about B2B, it's kind of got a maybe a bad name of being boring to boring. When do you think everything started to change where people started to have interest in what you do not only as a company, but understanding that there's a lot of power behind the data? Well, let's make it clear, there are still type men in gray suits with their very polished shoes that are lingering around.

[00:03:53] John Wright: It's not all fun. There are still those people. But I think it started becoming less boring when people started understanding the power of data, making a decision based on data, on understanding where the markets were going.

[00:04:11] Clemence Dujardin: Also when innovation came in, when automation came in, there were a lot of things that started making our B2B business more fun because it's easier to sell a product. And the minute it's easier to sell a product because you know where you're going and you can make predictions, then you become more relaxed. Your message starts changing, you address people in a different way, you look for the outside world. So you start addressing your audience with different. I think that's when it started.

[00:04:47] Clemence Dujardin: And before jumping on this call, we had a quick chat just talking about a lot of different things about industry nuances. And I wanted to ask what kind of pain points do you think operators experience of running their business and maybe share some insights where people have all the valuable tools at their hands, but they don't always make use of them and they don't always make use of the data. So I just want to know if you can share some insights as to why our industry maybe isn't as advanced as where it needs to be and what needs to change.

[00:05:19] Clemence Dujardin: I think there are there are actors in the industry that are very advanced and others that have that have thought over the years that throwing money at problems or problems, you know, and I think this is what you were discussing a little bit before, right? Is that if you need traffic, you're going to throw millions of thousands to campaigns that are going to generate nothing but clicks and are not going to convey. Now, if people don't ask them, then tell the question is why am I spending so much money and not converting anything, then, you know, there is a problem.

[00:05:55] Clemence Dujardin: People by now should have been educated, right? And with tools like ours, like you, like others, you know, they have the visibility, they have the knowledge in their hands, the power in their hands. So it is difficult to see why it's happening. I think competition is fierce, right? And entering new markets in particular is very, very difficult.

[00:06:20] Clemence Dujardin: And there is the pressure of always being at the top, which is not always easy. And you have the companies that, you know, rather than thinking, thinking with data, so thinking, looking at what they're doing and say, okay, this is, you know, this is where we invested. We didn't make that much money when we changed this and this. They just keep throwing money at the problem, which we know that it doesn't work. Do you think things are going to change where throwing money at the problem is not just going to be normal, where there's a lot of casinos or online gambling operations or even affiliates that just by existing, they make money.

[00:06:58] Clemence Dujardin: But do you think there's going to be a big separation where because the more advanced companies are using data, using tools, do you think this is going to be a change where the status quo is not going to be what we've always known it to be? Well, I would say I was hoping for that, right? But with the US markets, I've been slapped in the face, okay? Because actually, the US market should have learned from everything that has happened over the last 20 years, right? And they should have known that they were skilled people and people that understood online gaming and how to run marketing campaigns and how to do this and the other.

[00:07:37] Clemence Dujardin: And they should have gone and talked to these knowledgeable people. What we've seen so far, what I've analyzed so far of the US market is that, yes, it's a giant market. Not many people understand much about it. A lot of money has been spent, you know, and there is a lot of major acquisitions because they're trying to pick up the money. Because they're trying to pick up each other from, you know, losing everything they have invested so far, above all, two or three, okay? So I was hoping that globally it would, but I'm not completely convinced, you know, that it's actually happening.

[00:08:12] Clemence Dujardin: I agree. I think we've maybe, it feels like we've taken a step back where we thought it was obvious. Like, I think from our experience in the industry, we just felt like you wouldn't do this, but it did happen. So I think you're right. It's kind of a weird insight that we've taken a couple of steps back. But I think at the end of the day, you know, with the mergers and acquisitions that kind of finds a way to fix all problems. Doesn't? Maybe. Well, we'll get into that. That's another question coming up very soon. But I want to go into talking about affiliate programs that like going back into the problem of people not looking at their data.

[00:08:50] John Wright: What are some of the ways you think in a program could improve their conversion rate? And what do you think the operators should do to try to just basically not just get more affiliates to solve a problem, but look at their current data and go, you know what? There are ways of solving this and maybe they just don't have the ability to compare themselves versus other operators. I think there is always the problem of not being able to understand what and how the competition is doing really. And you can't get that inside data. So it's always very difficult to know how you're doing compared to the other. Or how the company is doing.

[00:09:30] John Wright: So affiliates have the luxury and the benefits of having that information because they know that on an operator, this campaign works.

[00:09:40] Clemence Dujardin: On the other one, it doesn't. And so they have a much better insight than operators have. Now, how do we make that information circulate? Is there an interest for affiliates to actually circulate that information? I don't know. Now, operators have a major problem, I think. And I think within the affiliate marketing team, there is a knowledge issue.

[00:10:08] John Wright: There is a problem of human resources. The good affiliate managers that were there 10 years ago have grown, have taken more responsibilities, have taken different positions. And right now, there is a struggle of finding people that understand the business. We haven't done much about it because there are courses here and there. There are online, but there is nothing in depth. There is nothing that is really focusing on how do we make an affiliate manager being a profession rather than something that you learn on an eight-hour course. Because that's not the way it works.

[00:10:47] John Wright: So operators have problems. And I think it's going to get a little bit worse before it gets better. Before these new affiliate managers actually understand the cost of data. They understand that everything is there at their fingertips. They just need to look at it and say, okay. And they also need to communicate more with their affiliates. Very often, I feel that it's a bit of a bad thing. It's the affiliate manager against affiliates. And there is always that trust issue where one thing is that they are going to steal the other one.

[00:11:24] John Wright: And that trust isn't there. After all these years, you haven't managed to sit down altogether, open the book and discuss all these open issues. And the only thing that needs to happen is actually trust and exchange of information. So that everybody gains from it and everybody learns and makes more money, makes their operations much easier. But how do we get that? That's a very good question. Yeah, I know we've had some of these chats at conferences talking about what needs to change.

[00:11:59] John Wright: And I think not to pick on the entire affiliate management community, but I think you're right. There are some great courses out there, but there are only, like you said, up to eight hours. And I think no one goes to school for affiliate management. You don't really have a path. And I'm not even sure if there's too many communities that support affiliate management. And I think you're right. It's probably going to get worse before it gets better because what I see on the ground of having like 2000 affiliate accounts is they're more focused on sales than they are trying to build a relationship. And even when we had our sites, which we sold recently, affiliate managers would approach us.

[00:12:37] John Wright: It's the same mindset. I want the number one spot, but they don't use data. They don't know how to use tools like Ahrefs or similar web or maybe even deep CI to analyze. Like maybe there's other parts of our website and our traffic that would actually be more beneficial for them to ask for. And to ask for it, you need to build a relationship. And it's just all these things are thrown out the window. Relationship building plus knowing what to actually look for. Absolutely. So let's talk into mergers and acquisitions.

[00:13:08] John Wright: So recently in the iGaming space, we had better collective acquire Playmaker for I think was 176 million euros and gig acquired cafe rocks for 35 million. Do you think the big affiliates are only going to get bigger? And I'll leave it at that question. And I've got two more follow ups. Yes, the definitely are only going to get bigger. And I think it's a bit part of a natural cycle. It's how organizations go.

[00:13:44] John Wright: And it's by buying others that are doing way and so then they can generate more cash. So yes, and it's also part of the cycle of the centennial of the industry. We saw these three operators. We're still seeing it with operators. It was a 10 living. And we saw that with Katina Media. Katina was one of the ones that started this, you know, this major in the position of affiliate site.

[00:14:10] Clemence Dujardin: And I think the model towards seven point and successful, you know, they decided to go and break this business in a way. But it was a successful business. But then I can be the did it quite well with it. So a second part to follow up on kind of the same theme is how do smaller affiliates compete? And do you think all this consolidates or some of the operators in the sense that if they have less pool of affiliates to deal with, then it's the bigger ones.

[00:14:39] John Wright: The assumption is that the bigger affiliates, the margins get smaller because they're commanding larger commission deals like higher rev share, higher CPA or higher flat fee, higher flat fees.

[00:14:50] John Wright: I personally, I can't say how if it continues like this, small affiliates can can keep competing, right?

[00:14:59] Clemence Dujardin: If you look at the landscape, the regulation, the competition, the cost and demand of more and more plus the heat, you know, small affiliates as much as bigger affiliates when operator close down don't get paid, you know, many vanishes. You know, there is so much this small athletes can take, you know, and I don't think it's being very easy on them.

[00:15:28] John Wright: But is it the law of the jungle? Is it the way it works in any honestly, is that, you know, if you're small and you have the power and the guts and the way to make whatever you're creating better and bigger, then you're going to be up there.

[00:15:47] Clemence Dujardin: But then, if you just want to do this, just like this, then you're going to remain as you are. I don't think it's possible to our industry. It's everywhere. You're always going to have industry leaders and you're always going to have these little, you know, companies that are still there that are happy, that are living with what they want, you know, that living with what they're making. But that's it.

[00:16:10] John Wright: Yeah, I think it's that situation of, you know, gone are the days when you could just create an affiliate site ranked without even trying. I think you got to put more effort into it. And I think it's kind of what we expect. It's you got to put in a quality effort if you want to, you know, have a chance at, you know, being an affiliate rather than, you know, maybe 15, 20 years ago. I remember being an affiliate manager and just seeing like these accounts. I'm like, I could create that same.

[00:16:35] Clemence Dujardin: Absolutely. WordPress website. I'm like, this is way too easy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, now it is investment, right? You need to invest from the get go. You need to invest in your SEO. You need to invest, you know, in your Google ads. You need to invest in your content. You need to invest in your own research, you know, to be there and understand it. So it's not anymore. I have a website and put some links and if I'm lucky, I get for his this month, you know, make some pocket money and I'm done. It doesn't happen like this anymore.

[00:17:09] Clemence Dujardin: So I want to talk about my affiliates and the growth it's had over the history of the company. And it's been quite an impressive one where, you know, just standing back as an affiliate, you see my affiliates everywhere. I'm just wondering if you're able to share what my affiliates is working on for 2024 and beyond. Okay. So that's interesting because, you know, we want to share a lot, but we can't share much. Right.

[00:17:32] Clemence Dujardin: You know, you know, is that is anything kind of thing. So anyone that has been working with the products as understood that we have invested a lot over the last past three to four years into moving from being a system which is a finite center to being a system that is player centered. Right. Because when the product was created 15 years ago, we needed to know or you needed to know how much it was anything. Okay. And that's it. Now, how much affiliate is earning is really the bottom line. But everyone is to understand how the earning is becoming.

[00:18:10] John Wright: Okay. So we need the people operators need to understand players, the player journey, the players market. They need to understand also, you know, the difference in the channels. So where the traffic comes from and which channels because they also have a lot more to report into your addiction, different taxes and so on and so forth. So we've invested a lot in that. So now what we're doing here is strengthening. So there are the sentences that we're missing, you know, and this is going to be, you know, already closed by the end of the year.

[00:18:47] John Wright: And we're also going to focus on having a future to be more independent of the system, you know, so more automated automization investing probably a bit more in the eye, probably investing a little bit more in the front end itself. So what I feel it's asking and what they're able to do. So we have a long journey ahead. We don't where we're going. Unfortunately, I'd love to share my attention.

[00:19:17] John Wright: I'd love to share my turn on board. And this is what you're going to see next year. I totally understand how it is. I mean, for what we do, we have a few competitors and we're considering being a what's the word. It's where you're a bit more build in public. So I don't think any affiliate software is brave enough to do building in public, but I think you've got too much fierce competition.

[00:19:41] John Wright: Yes, yes, I know. I know. We wouldn't jump into it. I mean, I know we wouldn't, you know, and because it's also because you raise expectations like very often when when when you start developing some something you plan, you have a timeline. But when you're building on codes that has that is getting older and you also have to go and rebuild the order of codes to build on top of something.

[00:20:06] John Wright: Those timelines run away. So the more information you give, then the more difficult it is to, you know, to deal with the clients and expectation, whatever. So staying in the bad ground and, you know, announcing things when they're out makes our life easier. So how do you think operators and affiliates could use AI to make better use of their data? Or is this another question that you don't want to answer because it also gives too much insight to what you're working on?

[00:20:34] Clemence Dujardin: I think AI can help. Affiliates, definitely understanding much more, you know, than their own traffic, right? Very often, affiliates have webpages, they have links, but it's a bit of a closed box, you know, they're understanding there are clues that are going to show you where the player came from or whatever.

[00:21:01] Clemence Dujardin: But you can actually start doing player behaviors with all this. So I think AI can be absolutely a tool. I mean, if you look at sports, I mean, if you have AI generated owns that can give you live owns on the spot, you know, on the next five seconds, this is brilliant. You know, it's something that is used and is going to be used more.

[00:21:27] John Wright: Weapons aren't identifying AI very, very, I mean, high value players, you know, and how do you target those players? How do you make them play? How do you how do you cross send them? How do you keep them? So all this, I think, our thing is that AI is going to change our lives because now you need to put many, many reports to put all that together. So AI probably is going to, you know, once you have put all these reports into your chat dbt and is going to expect the answer for you. So it's going to save you a long, you know, analyze and analyze what exists as well.

[00:22:06] John Wright: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think when you start looking at the different companies that exists on the sports betting side, it's easier for us to visualize what's happening. And I know companies that I follow in the gaming space that I think are interesting that I know relate to data and AI will be able to be applied our companies like Greco that helped with bonus abuse. And there's another company Golden Whale, which looks to see how they can optimize player values. So I think you're right that these are tools that maybe it's going to accelerate, you know, this MNA growth and maybe it's going to accelerate the top companies getting even stronger.

[00:22:42] John Wright: Yeah, but and then there are simplest way, right. I mean, I think I was speaking to a client here yesterday and he said, you know, can we use your manual and your FAQ to upload it in our chat dbt so that our own, you know, our own support people stop asking us questions but actually ask chat dbt and we feed those information.

[00:23:06] John Wright: So, even in terms of support, our support is going to become better and more efficient, you know, well, so, and, and when you have business like I was done that don't necessarily have a support agent after 10 o'clock in the evening but you know you have a president client that still have a question, you know, if you have this kind of tools, the client is still going to be saved to a certain extent without needing a new man, there will always be the need of a human at the end.

[00:23:36] John Wright: But it bridges a lot of gaps that right now we're not we're not reaching. Right. That makes sense. I'm hearing these, these discussions with companies like intercom where they're looking to build, you know, just smarter chat gbt powered type of customer support as just one of many things we can do. So, what do you see as the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence.

[00:24:00] John Wright: It has always been intersecting right I made eyes on that I can remember, or maybe not as long as I can remember, but I, it is the, they have to industry that complements each other. Right. And affiliate marketing cannot happen with business intelligence and business intelligence cannot can leave without affiliate marketing but not in the sector.

[00:24:25] John Wright: I mean, we do different things, we, I mean, of course we try as affiliate marketing software to give more business intelligence, and we will always try to give more insight, but of course we have part of the cycle that is missing for us, right, because we only get a limited email information about the players for example, so that needs to happen outside our system.

[00:24:52] John Wright: Same for the operator the operator has a limited access to them all day and then in hours to be put into a BI system to, to actually leave and give insightful information, but in that complimentary and I'm thinking, we need to be personal in BI BI I need to speak to more to us more in terms of what are the needs so that actually the industry can keep growing with intelligence so if we're complaining that there isn't enough intelligence into the industry and we were saying what are the managers and whatever.

[00:25:26] John Wright: It's only if we actually in improve our tools by complementing each other by speaking to each other and giving, maybe, you know what we're giving is not a simple, maybe we need to simplify it, and, you know, and collaborate more so that we actually give things that are always in your face when it's easier to make decisions.

[00:25:45] John Wright: No, I agree. I think, you know, business intelligence has been touching everything for the last 20 years, if not longer, and it's always been in affiliate marketing, but I think, you know, the one reason why I wanted to do this podcast was to take these conversations that are happening at the conference and kind of bring them out where, okay, yes, it's going to be on video and audio but eventually it's going to be transcribed and hopefully, you know, discussions like this end up in the hands of those affiliate managers and those operators that need to be look at their business in a different way and also the data. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:18] John Wright: Clements, it was a pleasure chatting with you. I'm looking forward to seeing you next week and Malta. How can people get a hold of you and tell us, you know, where they can get a hold of my affiliates as well. I'm also looking forward to have you at dinner next week. So to get into to us sales at my affiliates.com that's as easy as that. And we have brilliant people that get into it. And we can include that information in the show notes, including maybe a couple LinkedIn profiles and accounts. Absolutely. Clements, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you, John. It was a pleasure.

[00:27:01] Clemence Dujardin: I hope this time to ask for small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. That helps us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more listeners.