Conversion Rate Optimization in Affiliate Marketing with Oliver Kenyon

I think affiliate marketing and lead I think affiliate marketing and lead generation are two huge markets that are

generation are two huge markets that are generation are two huge markets that are very untapped when it comes to cro uh

very untapped when it comes to cro uh very untapped when it comes to cro uh and I say this from someone who who runs

and I say this from someone who who runs and I say this from someone who who runs a large C agency we primary focus on

a large C agency we primary focus on a large C agency we primary focus on Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just

Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just knows that above a certain volume you

knows that above a certain volume you knows that above a certain volume you should be doing tests because more tests

should be doing tests because more tests should be doing tests because more tests will lose than win but those winning

will lose than win but those winning will lose than win but those winning tests on large volume of data can cover

tests on large volume of data can cover tests on large volume of data can cover the losses of the of the losing test and

the losses of the of the losing test and the losses of the of the losing test and they can be like literally life-changing

they can be like literally life-changing they can be like literally life-changing game changing for your business but I I

game changing for your business but I I game changing for your business but I I feel like affiliate marketing think it's

feel like affiliate marketing think it's feel like affiliate marketing think it's hugely hugely untapped in the affiliate

hugely hugely untapped in the affiliate hugely hugely untapped in the affiliate space for sure I'm John R and you're

space for sure I'm John R and you're space for sure I'm John R and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by statr welcome

podcast brought to you by statr welcome podcast brought to you by statr welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today I'm

to the affiliate bi podcast today I'm to the affiliate bi podcast today I'm very happy to speak with Oliver Kenyan

very happy to speak with Oliver Kenyan very happy to speak with Oliver Kenyan he is the co-founder of conversion wise

he is the co-founder of conversion wise he is the co-founder of conversion wise which is an agency specialing in

which is an agency specialing in which is an agency specialing in conversion rate optimization and he's

conversion rate optimization and he's conversion rate optimization and he's also the founder of affiliate fix which

also the founder of affiliate fix which also the founder of affiliate fix which is one of the largest affiliate for

is one of the largest affiliate for is one of the largest affiliate for forums um Oliver welcome to the show

forums um Oliver welcome to the show forums um Oliver welcome to the show thank you so much for having me I'm thank you so much for having me I'm thank you so much for having me I'm excited to be here all right let's go to

excited to be here all right let's go to excited to be here all right let's go to the very beginning of how you got the very beginning of how you got the very beginning of how you got started in affiliate marketing I want to

started in affiliate marketing I want to started in affiliate marketing I want to hear your story I love telling the story

hear your story I love telling the story hear your story I love telling the story because if I told you it was uh Eminem

because if I told you it was uh Eminem because if I told you it was uh Eminem and Hip Hop that got me into affiliate

and Hip Hop that got me into affiliate and Hip Hop that got me into affiliate marketing would you believe me possibly

marketing would you believe me possibly marketing would you believe me possibly not but uh that's that's the truth so um

not but uh that's that's the truth so um not but uh that's that's the truth so um I was I was actually a a full-time Chef

I was I was actually a a full-time Chef I was I was actually a a full-time Chef so I went to college so I did my chefing

so I went to college so I did my chefing so I went to college so I did my chefing kind of degree and I was a full-time

kind of degree and I was a full-time kind of degree and I was a full-time chef but on the side I was always

chef but on the side I was always chef but on the side I was always obsessed with uh hip-hop I loved hip-hop

obsessed with uh hip-hop I loved hip-hop obsessed with uh hip-hop I loved hip-hop and rap and it the days of kind of eight

and rap and it the days of kind of eight and rap and it the days of kind of eight eight mile and Eminem When the film came

eight mile and Eminem When the film came eight mile and Eminem When the film came out rap battles and it kind of is what

out rap battles and it kind of is what out rap battles and it kind of is what really brought me to the online space um

really brought me to the online space um really brought me to the online space um as like a passion like I just used to

as like a passion like I just used to as like a passion like I just used to love going on all the back in the day

love going on all the back in the day love going on all the back in the day all the forums and the communities that

all the forums and the communities that all the forums and the communities that basically discussed all hip hop rap

basically discussed all hip hop rap basically discussed all hip hop rap battles Etc and uh yeah I was obsessed

battles Etc and uh yeah I was obsessed battles Etc and uh yeah I was obsessed with like Eminem and all that good stuff with like Eminem and all that good stuff with like Eminem and all that good stuff and through communities as we kind of

and through communities as we kind of and through communities as we kind of now know this is before the days of like

now know this is before the days of like now know this is before the days of like Facebook groups and Discord and all that

Facebook groups and Discord and all that Facebook groups and Discord and all that kind of good stuff stuff um it it was

kind of good stuff stuff um it it was kind of good stuff stuff um it it was still functioning the same like still functioning the same like still functioning the same like communities were all about networking communities were all about networking communities were all about networking and meeting people and I was lucky and meeting people and I was lucky and meeting people and I was lucky enough to meet a guy in Wales I'm from

enough to meet a guy in Wales I'm from enough to meet a guy in Wales I'm from the UK um who basically showed me uh

the UK um who basically showed me uh the UK um who basically showed me uh what affiliate marketing was it was back

what affiliate marketing was it was back what affiliate marketing was it was back in a day of kind of CBA marketing so

in a day of kind of CBA marketing so in a day of kind of CBA marketing so cost by action marketing um incentivized

cost by action marketing um incentivized cost by action marketing um incentivized marketing uh and he was making some good

marketing uh and he was making some good marketing uh and he was making some good money using kind of like gateways and

money using kind of like gateways and money using kind of like gateways and this is going to show how kind of long this is going to show how kind of long this is going to show how kind of long I've been in the space but this was when I've been in the space but this was when I've been in the space but this was when like you could get like any likes on

like you could get like any likes on like you could get like any likes on Facebook pages uh You' then run like

Facebook pages uh You' then run like Facebook pages uh You' then run like viral scripts uh around kind of

viral scripts uh around kind of viral scripts uh around kind of clickbait videos and people would have clickbait videos and people would have clickbait videos and people would have to fill in the gateways and you get paid

to fill in the gateways and you get paid to fill in the gateways and you get paid uh every time someone field in the uh every time someone field in the uh every time someone field in the Gateway so me and him ran this kind of a

Gateway so me and him ran this kind of a Gateway so me and him ran this kind of a co- project I think it was like around co- project I think it was like around co- project I think it was like around the Euros or the World Cup in the the Euros or the World Cup in the the Euros or the World Cup in the football and we basically gave away uh

football and we basically gave away uh football and we basically gave away uh an England shirt sign signed an England

an England shirt sign signed an England an England shirt sign signed an England shirt that we bought from eBay we gave

shirt that we bought from eBay we gave shirt that we bought from eBay we gave it away and to enter you had to fill in

it away and to enter you had to fill in it away and to enter you had to fill in one of these gateways every time the one of these gateways every time the one of these gateways every time the gate was filled in we'd get money uh and

gate was filled in we'd get money uh and gate was filled in we'd get money uh and we'd run these kind of viral scripts

we'd run these kind of viral scripts we'd run these kind of viral scripts through it and um that was my first

through it and um that was my first through it and um that was my first first kind of introduction to affiliate

first kind of introduction to affiliate first kind of introduction to affiliate marketing a side of affiliate marketing

marketing a side of affiliate marketing marketing a side of affiliate marketing mainly CPA um and the issue back then

mainly CPA um and the issue back then mainly CPA um and the issue back then was we had like things like the warrior

was we had like things like the warrior was we had like things like the warrior Forum you had digital Forum a digital

Forum you had digital Forum a digital Forum you had digital Forum a digital point Forum um and several other uh kind

point Forum um and several other uh kind point Forum um and several other uh kind of forums but Wicked fire but no one

of forums but Wicked fire but no one of forums but Wicked fire but no one really shared anything it was all kind

really shared anything it was all kind really shared anything it was all kind of very secretive these days we live in

of very secretive these days we live in of very secretive these days we live in a in a generation where like everything

a in a generation where like everything a in a generation where like everything is shared like everything is open people

is shared like everything is open people is shared like everything is open people just give everything away for free and just give everything away for free and just give everything away for free and that's the way you should be doing that's the way you should be doing that's the way you should be doing marketing but back then it was very marketing but back then it was very marketing but back then it was very secretive so no one was really just

secretive so no one was really just secretive so no one was really just discussing how they were making uh money

discussing how they were making uh money discussing how they were making uh money through marketing and the the the

through marketing and the the the through marketing and the the the amazing thing about this network I

amazing thing about this network I amazing thing about this network I joined again it's going to show my age

joined again it's going to show my age joined again it's going to show my age here called CPA Le was it had like a a

here called CPA Le was it had like a a here called CPA Le was it had like a a live chat feature on the on the on the

live chat feature on the on the on the live chat feature on the on the on the dashboard of the affiliate network but

dashboard of the affiliate network but dashboard of the affiliate network but the ingenious thing they did is you

the ingenious thing they did is you the ingenious thing they did is you could put like forward slash today or

could put like forward slash today or could put like forward slash today or for slash this month or forall time and

for slash this month or forall time and for slash this month or forall time and it would share your earnings within the

it would share your earnings within the it would share your earnings within the channel so for cloud everyone was in

channel so for cloud everyone was in channel so for cloud everyone was in there every day going like for SL today

there every day going like for SL today there every day going like for SL today and it would come up like John has made

and it would come up like John has made and it would come up like John has made $6,000 today back then I was like for

$6,000 today back then I was like for $6,000 today back then I was like for slash today it was like Oliver has made

slash today it was like Oliver has made slash today it was like Oliver has made 50p today like I wasn't earning too much

50p today like I wasn't earning too much 50p today like I wasn't earning too much but I I got really fixated like how are

but I I got really fixated like how are but I I got really fixated like how are these guys earning all this money but no these guys earning all this money but no these guys earning all this money but no one was sharing it so because I'd been

one was sharing it so because I'd been one was sharing it so because I'd been on these affiliate uh sorry these rap

on these affiliate uh sorry these rap on these affiliate uh sorry these rap and hip-hop communities I knew exactly

and hip-hop communities I knew exactly and hip-hop communities I knew exactly what like a forum was um and I always

what like a forum was um and I always what like a forum was um and I always remember I must have been maybe 16 17 at

remember I must have been maybe 16 17 at remember I must have been maybe 16 17 at the time was at College doing my chefing

the time was at College doing my chefing the time was at College doing my chefing I didn't have any money and I sat down

I didn't have any money and I sat down I didn't have any money and I sat down with my father and my grandfather and I

with my father and my grandfather and I with my father and my grandfather and I did the whole kind of like Dragon's Den

did the whole kind of like Dragon's Den did the whole kind of like Dragon's Den pitch so like the Shark Tank kind of

pitch so like the Shark Tank kind of pitch so like the Shark Tank kind of pitch and I said uh if you give me

pitch and I said uh if you give me pitch and I said uh if you give me £140 uh I can I can uh buy a v bulletin

£140 uh I can I can uh buy a v bulletin £140 uh I can I can uh buy a v bulletin license which was the Forum software I

license which was the Forum software I license which was the Forum software I can buy a domain some hosting and I can

can buy a domain some hosting and I can can buy a domain some hosting and I can set up this affiliate Community where we

set up this affiliate Community where we set up this affiliate Community where we can discuss more openly how people make

can discuss more openly how people make can discuss more openly how people make money through affiliate marketing and uh

money through affiliate marketing and uh money through affiliate marketing and uh I always remember my dad and grandfather

I always remember my dad and grandfather I always remember my dad and grandfather agreed they in return they were going to

agreed they in return they were going to agreed they in return they were going to get 40% of the business um and believe

get 40% of the business um and believe get 40% of the business um and believe it or not that was the the beginning of

it or not that was the the beginning of it or not that was the the beginning of CPA fix which turned to affiliate bit

CPA fix which turned to affiliate bit CPA fix which turned to affiliate bit which became the largest affiliate

which became the largest affiliate which became the largest affiliate Community online and uh the rest is kind

Community online and uh the rest is kind Community online and uh the rest is kind of history as they say and my dad still

of history as they say and my dad still of history as they say and my dad still to this day reminds me that he owns 40%

to this day reminds me that he owns 40% to this day reminds me that he owns 40% of that business yeah well good thing

of that business yeah well good thing of that business yeah well good thing he's got a recording of this so if he

he's got a recording of this so if he he's got a recording of this so if he ever needs to take it a

ever needs to take it a ever needs to take it a court before no we'll just we'll just

court before no we'll just we'll just court before no we'll just we'll just beep that out um yeah that's really cool

beep that out um yeah that's really cool beep that out um yeah that's really cool um I think you highlighted something

um I think you highlighted something um I think you highlighted something that um if you did that back in the day

that um if you did that back in the day that um if you did that back in the day with with like affiliate fix in those

with with like affiliate fix in those with with like affiliate fix in those other forums you're right people back

other forums you're right people back other forums you're right people back then weren't really sharing but people

then weren't really sharing but people then weren't really sharing but people gravitated towards it Like Pat Flynn

gravitated towards it Like Pat Flynn gravitated towards it Like Pat Flynn where he's like here's my monthly income

where he's like here's my monthly income where he's like here's my monthly income and it's kind of weird you know building

and it's kind of weird you know building and it's kind of weird you know building in public is is talked about as if it's

in public is is talked about as if it's in public is is talked about as if it's a new thing but people still don't

a new thing but people still don't a new thing but people still don't really like he was the guy right like

really like he was the guy right like really like he was the guy right like back in the day I used to I used to love

back in the day I used to I used to love back in the day I used to I used to love that monthly drop that he did to like that monthly drop that he did to like that monthly drop that he did to like showing that breaking down his income I showing that breaking down his income I showing that breaking down his income I think it was um what's the hosting uh by

think it was um what's the hosting uh by think it was um what's the hosting uh by that he was like number one affiliate

that he was like number one affiliate that he was like number one affiliate conversion kit was it conversion kit but

conversion kit was it conversion kit but conversion kit was it conversion kit but there was a blue blue host I think it

there was a blue blue host I think it there was a blue blue host I think it was one of them he was like doing

was one of them he was like doing was one of them he was like doing hundreds of thousands in that yeah I

hundreds of thousands in that yeah I hundreds of thousands in that yeah I actually I started a YouTube channel

actually I started a YouTube channel actually I started a YouTube channel back when I had like CPA fix and managed

back when I had like CPA fix and managed back when I had like CPA fix and managed to get a very early on interview with

to get a very early on interview with to get a very early on interview with Pat Flynn I watch it now and I literally

Pat Flynn I watch it now and I literally Pat Flynn I watch it now and I literally cringe because it was it was quite funny

cringe because it was it was quite funny cringe because it was it was quite funny of the how naive I was but yeah he was

of the how naive I was but yeah he was of the how naive I was but yeah he was like he was like the the kind of going

like he was like the the kind of going like he was like the the kind of going with that back in the day like sharing with that back in the day like sharing with that back in the day like sharing with his stuff yeah it's a good thing

with his stuff yeah it's a good thing with his stuff yeah it's a good thing where I I think people you know why they

where I I think people you know why they where I I think people you know why they don't get into videos I think they're

don't get into videos I think they're don't get into videos I think they're worried about their first video being

worried about their first video being worried about their first video being horrible but uh go to listen to Pat

horrible but uh go to listen to Pat horrible but uh go to listen to Pat Flynn's very first episode and it's like

Flynn's very first episode and it's like Flynn's very first episode and it's like night and day of what he is like now in

night and day of what he is like now in night and day of what he is like now in terms of how professional he is but he

terms of how professional he is but he terms of how professional he is but he doesn't get that good unless he he uh

doesn't get that good unless he he uh doesn't get that good unless he he uh you know puts himself through the meat you know puts himself through the meat you know puts himself through the meat grinder and does that day one grinder and does that day one grinder and does that day one competition absolutely so let's fast

competition absolutely so let's fast competition absolutely so let's fast forward to conversion rate optimization

forward to conversion rate optimization forward to conversion rate optimization it's uh it's one of my favorite topics

it's uh it's one of my favorite topics it's uh it's one of my favorite topics uh I got first introduced to it by uh at

uh I got first introduced to it by uh at uh I got first introduced to it by uh at a conference with Tim Ash doing a

a conference with Tim Ash doing a a conference with Tim Ash doing a presentation on cro and he did a live

presentation on cro and he did a live presentation on cro and he did a live take on of people's websites and I'm take on of people's websites and I'm take on of people's websites and I'm like wow I me screw SEO like just double

like wow I me screw SEO like just double like wow I me screw SEO like just double your traffic with cro so how did you

your traffic with cro so how did you your traffic with cro so how did you stumble into this I mean it's probably

stumble into this I mean it's probably stumble into this I mean it's probably through affiliate marketing yeah

through affiliate marketing yeah through affiliate marketing yeah absolutely so when we launched affiliate

absolutely so when we launched affiliate absolutely so when we launched affiliate fix well it's called CPA fix I kind of

fix well it's called CPA fix I kind of fix well it's called CPA fix I kind of bought a few of the code following from

bought a few of the code following from bought a few of the code following from CPA lead over and like I never knew that

CPA lead over and like I never knew that CPA lead over and like I never knew that affiliate fix was going to be the

affiliate fix was going to be the affiliate fix was going to be the business it turned into the uh I never

business it turned into the uh I never business it turned into the uh I never knew that people were going to join but

knew that people were going to join but knew that people were going to join but all of a sudden loads of people just all of a sudden loads of people just all of a sudden loads of people just started joining things like they just

started joining things like they just started joining things like they just had somewhere centralized to discuss

had somewhere centralized to discuss had somewhere centralized to discuss marketing um and we were really lucky I

marketing um and we were really lucky I marketing um and we were really lucky I still uh I'm still very um in debt to

still uh I'm still very um in debt to still uh I'm still very um in debt to this guy to this day but one of our

this guy to this day but one of our this guy to this day but one of our first members was a guy called Tim bird

first members was a guy called Tim bird first members was a guy called Tim bird may have heard of him may not um your

may have heard of him may not um your may have heard of him may not um your audience may have heard him may not he

audience may have heard him may not he audience may have heard him may not he was uh kind of proclaimed as the

was uh kind of proclaimed as the was uh kind of proclaimed as the Godfather of Facebook marketing um and

Godfather of Facebook marketing um and Godfather of Facebook marketing um and back then before he was sort of really

back then before he was sort of really back then before he was sort of really big into Facebook ads he had an

big into Facebook ads he had an big into Facebook ads he had an affiliate Network PLO and Tim and

affiliate Network PLO and Tim and affiliate Network PLO and Tim and another old friend of mine BTO glazers

another old friend of mine BTO glazers another old friend of mine BTO glazers who owns CPA tank

who owns CPA tank who owns CPA tank uh basically came over onto the Forum

uh basically came over onto the Forum uh basically came over onto the Forum and asked me if they could put banners

and asked me if they could put banners and asked me if they could put banners on the Forum i what does that even mean

on the Forum i what does that even mean on the Forum i what does that even mean and they were like oh like dude we'll and they were like oh like dude we'll and they were like oh like dude we'll give you some money I was like make

give you some money I was like make give you some money I was like make money from this like this is just may be

money from this like this is just may be money from this like this is just may be somewhere where me and my friends could somewhere where me and my friends could somewhere where me and my friends could discuss like trying to make money online

discuss like trying to make money online discuss like trying to make money online all of a sudden Tim and beer are all of a sudden Tim and beer are all of a sudden Tim and beer are offering me like four or500 a month to

offering me like four or500 a month to offering me like four or500 a month to serve their banners and I was like this

serve their banners and I was like this serve their banners and I was like this is this is crazy so um I was really

is this is crazy so um I was really is this is crazy so um I was really luckyy to form a relationship with Tim

luckyy to form a relationship with Tim luckyy to form a relationship with Tim very very early on and he really loved

very very early on and he really loved very very early on and he really loved the Aesthetics of the Forum it looked

the Aesthetics of the Forum it looked the Aesthetics of the Forum it looked very nice I was like I'm not a designer

very nice I was like I'm not a designer very nice I was like I'm not a designer at heart but I love creativity I like

at heart but I love creativity I like at heart but I love creativity I like things to look nice um and I'd found

things to look nice um and I'd found things to look nice um and I'd found this designer who designed the Forum um

this designer who designed the Forum um this designer who designed the Forum um CPA 6 and Tim said can I use your

CPA 6 and Tim said can I use your CPA 6 and Tim said can I use your designer and I kind of I guess maybe the

designer and I kind of I guess maybe the designer and I kind of I guess maybe the entrepreneurial bug has always been in

entrepreneurial bug has always been in entrepreneurial bug has always been in me I don't know I I didn't intro him I

me I don't know I I didn't intro him I me I don't know I I didn't intro him I said yeah but I'm going to do this as

said yeah but I'm going to do this as said yeah but I'm going to do this as kind of like an Arbitrage thing so I

kind of like an Arbitrage thing so I kind of like an Arbitrage thing so I will get the brief from Tim I will send

will get the brief from Tim I will send will get the brief from Tim I will send it to my designer SB SB will be the

it to my designer SB SB will be the it to my designer SB SB will be the design I will charge Tim X I will pay s

design I will charge Tim X I will pay s design I will charge Tim X I will pay s y and make a bit of money on top um and

y and make a bit of money on top um and y and make a bit of money on top um and that's kind of how it started as silly

that's kind of how it started as silly that's kind of how it started as silly as it sounds like we started just

as it sounds like we started just as it sounds like we started just building some landing pages for Tim and

building some landing pages for Tim and building some landing pages for Tim and Tim then uh won a contract with a

Tim then uh won a contract with a Tim then uh won a contract with a company called debt.org who are one of

company called debt.org who are one of company called debt.org who are one of the largest lead generation companies in

the largest lead generation companies in the largest lead generation companies in the states um they were very big into

the states um they were very big into the states um they were very big into like Social Security uh disability

like Social Security uh disability like Social Security uh disability benefits etc etc and I was still a chef

benefits etc etc and I was still a chef benefits etc etc and I was still a chef still a full-time chef and Tim

still a full-time chef and Tim still a full-time chef and Tim approached me and said said I will pay approached me and said said I will pay approached me and said said I will pay you x amount per month I can't remember

you x amount per month I can't remember you x amount per month I can't remember what it was I think it was like $6,000

what it was I think it was like $6,000 what it was I think it was like $6,000 which is like more money than I would

which is like more money than I would which is like more money than I would have ever had in my bank he said I'll

have ever had in my bank he said I'll have ever had in my bank he said I'll pay you like $6,000 per month to

pay you like $6,000 per month to pay you like $6,000 per month to generate I think it was like maybe three

generate I think it was like maybe three generate I think it was like maybe three or four landing pages per week um so I

or four landing pages per week um so I or four landing pages per week um so I kind of again I was more like an X

kind of again I was more like an X kind of again I was more like an X manager I I kind of went to S and said

manager I I kind of went to S and said manager I I kind of went to S and said right we've got to do this we found a right we've got to do this we found a right we've got to do this we found a developer uh we started producing these

developer uh we started producing these developer uh we started producing these pages to Tim with really good results

pages to Tim with really good results pages to Tim with really good results and I I must admit like I didn't really

and I I must admit like I didn't really and I I must admit like I didn't really know too much what I was doing about you

know too much what I was doing about you know too much what I was doing about you know conversion elements and principles

know conversion elements and principles know conversion elements and principles and um luckily we had Tim on our side

and um luckily we had Tim on our side and um luckily we had Tim on our side and we used zwo back in the day doing

and we used zwo back in the day doing and we used zwo back in the day doing multivariate testing so we quickly got

multivariate testing so we quickly got multivariate testing so we quickly got results and I became honestly absolutely

results and I became honestly absolutely results and I became honestly absolutely fixated with like how some subtle change

fixated with like how some subtle change fixated with like how some subtle change can make such a big difference and we

can make such a big difference and we can make such a big difference and we started building out these Frameworks

started building out these Frameworks started building out these Frameworks like literally building out like this is

like literally building out like this is like literally building out like this is what a perfect lead gen page looks like

what a perfect lead gen page looks like what a perfect lead gen page looks like we then got into doing multi-step lead

we then got into doing multi-step lead we then got into doing multi-step lead gen Pages because the offers were were

gen Pages because the offers were were gen Pages because the offers were were like asking more questions we then

like asking more questions we then like asking more questions we then started to introduce advertorials they

started to introduce advertorials they started to introduce advertorials they called pre-sell back in the day so we called pre-sell back in the day so we called pre-sell back in the day so we were then coming obsessed with like what

were then coming obsessed with like what were then coming obsessed with like what how an advertorial was written and then

how an advertorial was written and then how an advertorial was written and then he just grew from them Tim again Tim has

he just grew from them Tim again Tim has he just grew from them Tim again Tim has been huge influence on our kind of

been huge influence on our kind of been huge influence on our kind of career but he then uh started doing some

career but he then uh started doing some career but he then uh started doing some Ecom stuff so very early in the day we

Ecom stuff so very early in the day we Ecom stuff so very early in the day we started doing Ecom he would introduce started doing Ecom he would introduce started doing Ecom he would introduce you to another person and we were doing

you to another person and we were doing you to another person and we were doing all the kind of like Rush my trial pages

all the kind of like Rush my trial pages all the kind of like Rush my trial pages and all the kind of aggressive affiliate

and all the kind of aggressive affiliate and all the kind of aggressive affiliate Landers back in the day and honestly it

Landers back in the day and honestly it Landers back in the day and honestly it just grew from there the more people we

just grew from there the more people we just grew from there the more people we did we then created a business around it

did we then created a business around it did we then created a business around it people from the the community wanted to

people from the the community wanted to people from the the community wanted to utilize it because all Affiliates need

utilize it because all Affiliates need utilize it because all Affiliates need landing pages or they're doing host and

landing pages or they're doing host and landing pages or they're doing host and post on leg gen or they're selling their

post on leg gen or they're selling their post on leg gen or they're selling their own products um and L I was lucky enough

own products um and L I was lucky enough own products um and L I was lucky enough to find my co-founder inside the

to find my co-founder inside the to find my co-founder inside the community as well which is just nuts

community as well which is just nuts community as well which is just nuts that he joined my CPA fix forum and he

that he joined my CPA fix forum and he that he joined my CPA fix forum and he actually lives 30 minutes away from me

actually lives 30 minutes away from me actually lives 30 minutes away from me which is just crazy met up with him

which is just crazy met up with him which is just crazy met up with him formed a partnership and uh yeah I think

formed a partnership and uh yeah I think formed a partnership and uh yeah I think 11 years on we're still good that's

11 years on we're still good that's 11 years on we're still good that's crazy uh I'm going to jump right into

crazy uh I'm going to jump right into crazy uh I'm going to jump right into the cro stuff yeah uh how small of a

the cro stuff yeah uh how small of a the cro stuff yeah uh how small of a sample size of Dad do you need to run a

sample size of Dad do you need to run a sample size of Dad do you need to run a good ab split test to to get those early

good ab split test to to get those early good ab split test to to get those early wins yeah so when it comes to like

wins yeah so when it comes to like wins yeah so when it comes to like ongoing C I split CR into two two

ongoing C I split CR into two two ongoing C I split CR into two two categories really one is like landing

categories really one is like landing categories really one is like landing page design so that is like building a

page design so that is like building a page design so that is like building a landing page around best practices and

landing page around best practices and landing page around best practices and best Frameworks which we have kind of best Frameworks which we have kind of best Frameworks which we have kind of pioneered over the last 10 years to say

pioneered over the last 10 years to say pioneered over the last 10 years to say like if you put x y and Zed in this

like if you put x y and Zed in this like if you put x y and Zed in this order and this layout it should convert

order and this layout it should convert order and this layout it should convert better than if you just got a random

better than if you just got a random better than if you just got a random good-looking design of 99 designs for

good-looking design of 99 designs for good-looking design of 99 designs for example you then have the other side

example you then have the other side example you then have the other side which is when you have a certain amount

which is when you have a certain amount which is when you have a certain amount of volume of data and traffic per month

of volume of data and traffic per month of volume of data and traffic per month you can start running exactly as you you can start running exactly as you you can start running exactly as you said these kind of ab tests and for

said these kind of ab tests and for said these kind of ab tests and for those of you who don't know what that is those of you who don't know what that is those of you who don't know what that is it's literally where you hypothesize

it's literally where you hypothesize it's literally where you hypothesize that like this would convert better than

that like this would convert better than that like this would convert better than this use a bit of software that spins

this use a bit of software that spins this use a bit of software that spins 50% of your audience towards version a

50% of your audience towards version a 50% of your audience towards version a 50% towards B and you soon find out

50% towards B and you soon find out 50% towards B and you soon find out which one converts now it's a good

which one converts now it's a good which one converts now it's a good question it's a question we get asked a

question it's a question we get asked a question it's a question we get asked a lot it's like what volume of data do you

lot it's like what volume of data do you lot it's like what volume of data do you need we suggest that anyone below 50 to

need we suggest that anyone below 50 to need we suggest that anyone below 50 to 100,000 hits per month sticks to landing

100,000 hits per month sticks to landing 100,000 hits per month sticks to landing page design you can take bigger swings

page design you can take bigger swings page design you can take bigger swings because you haven't got enough data

because you haven't got enough data because you haven't got enough data going through uh the test you can afford

going through uh the test you can afford going through uh the test you can afford to take bigger swings bigger changes uh

to take bigger swings bigger changes uh to take bigger swings bigger changes uh and you can you can you can build and you can you can you can build and you can you can you can build something that based on a clay converion

something that based on a clay converion something that based on a clay converion framework if you have over 50 to

framework if you have over 50 to framework if you have over 50 to 7,500,000 per month uh that's when you

7,500,000 per month uh that's when you 7,500,000 per month uh that's when you can kind of unlock AB testing

can kind of unlock AB testing can kind of unlock AB testing effectively and quickly because

effectively and quickly because effectively and quickly because basically you need you need at least two

basically you need you need at least two basically you need you need at least two weeks to run for a test and the reason

weeks to run for a test and the reason weeks to run for a test and the reason that is is because external factors can

that is is because external factors can that is is because external factors can sometimes um contradict your test for

sometimes um contradict your test for sometimes um contradict your test for example if on a Monday There's a bit of

example if on a Monday There's a bit of example if on a Monday There's a bit of news about the product that you're news about the product that you're news about the product that you're selling in the market there's probably

selling in the market there's probably selling in the market there's probably going to be more people who are trending going to be more people who are trending going to be more people who are trending going to your pages and buying your going to your pages and buying your going to your pages and buying your product there might be something uh you

product there might be something uh you product there might be something uh you know external again that kind of affects

know external again that kind of affects know external again that kind of affects it like a sale or uh Prime day or

it like a sale or uh Prime day or it like a sale or uh Prime day or something you know something on that

something you know something on that something you know something on that specific Monday May alter your test so

specific Monday May alter your test so specific Monday May alter your test so you need to let it run two Mondays just

you need to let it run two Mondays just you need to let it run two Mondays just so you can kind of counterbalance that

so you can kind of counterbalance that so you can kind of counterbalance that and say okay it wasn't just a sluke on and say okay it wasn't just a sluke on and say okay it wasn't just a sluke on that Monday um as far as sample size of

that Monday um as far as sample size of that Monday um as far as sample size of volume you'll really looking at around

volume you'll really looking at around volume you'll really looking at around about at least 100,000 hits uh at least

about at least 100,000 hits uh at least about at least 100,000 hits uh at least kind of yeah sort of 50 to 100, thousand

kind of yeah sort of 50 to 100, thousand kind of yeah sort of 50 to 100, thousand hits but also you need to look for

hits but also you need to look for hits but also you need to look for statistical significance so you can

statistical significance so you can statistical significance so you can actually become statistic a lot shorter

actually become statistic a lot shorter actually become statistic a lot shorter uh time of volume but you need to make

uh time of volume but you need to make uh time of volume but you need to make sure that it is kind of like that 85 90%

sure that it is kind of like that 85 90% sure that it is kind of like that 85 90% up on okay this one is statistically

up on okay this one is statistically up on okay this one is statistically proven to convert better and sometimes

proven to convert better and sometimes proven to convert better and sometimes you can actually make a bit more of a

you can actually make a bit more of a you can actually make a bit more of a quicker decision if a test should win

quicker decision if a test should win quicker decision if a test should win you can do AB testing on any volume of

you can do AB testing on any volume of you can do AB testing on any volume of of traffic it's just going to take you of traffic it's just going to take you of traffic it's just going to take you longer you know to get to that 50

longer you know to get to that 50 longer you know to get to that 50 100,000 hits if you're only doing 20,000

100,000 hits if you're only doing 20,000 100,000 hits if you're only doing 20,000 hits per month is going to take five six

hits per month is going to take five six hits per month is going to take five six months whereas if you're doing over that

months whereas if you're doing over that months whereas if you're doing over that 100,000 hits you can just get

100,000 hits you can just get 100,000 hits you can just get statistically significant a lot

statistically significant a lot statistically significant a lot quicker and then you can make a decision

quicker and then you can make a decision quicker and then you can make a decision on whether the test one or lost and on whether the test one or lost and on whether the test one or lost and implement it on your store but I would

implement it on your store but I would implement it on your store but I would always run it over two weeks just so you

always run it over two weeks just so you always run it over two weeks just so you have like two Mondays two Tuesdays two

have like two Mondays two Tuesdays two have like two Mondays two Tuesdays two Wednesdays two Wednesdays two Wednesdays two Thursdays and let's assume that we don't

Thursdays and let's assume that we don't Thursdays and let's assume that we don't have an agency like conversion wise to

have an agency like conversion wise to have an agency like conversion wise to help us what sort of tools in the

help us what sort of tools in the help us what sort of tools in the toolbox would you use to run these AB

toolbox would you use to run these AB toolbox would you use to run these AB split tests to improve your conversion

split tests to improve your conversion split tests to improve your conversion rate let's say on an affiliate website

rate let's say on an affiliate website rate let's say on an affiliate website yeah absolutely so I think you have to

yeah absolutely so I think you have to yeah absolutely so I think you have to educate yourself on um how to create

educate yourself on um how to create educate yourself on um how to create hypothesis uh and and why why um you

hypothesis uh and and why why um you hypothesis uh and and why why um you know effectively all all AB testing is

know effectively all all AB testing is know effectively all all AB testing is is like guess work it's it's a sort of

is like guess work it's it's a sort of is like guess work it's it's a sort of stab in the dark of this I think this

stab in the dark of this I think this stab in the dark of this I think this will convert better than this but if you

will convert better than this but if you will convert better than this but if you if you have the education on on um why

if you have the education on on um why if you have the education on on um why it should and you you have the education

it should and you you have the education it should and you you have the education around how to look into analytics how to

around how to look into analytics how to around how to look into analytics how to look into reporting how to install heat

look into reporting how to install heat look into reporting how to install heat maps and and analyze scroll and heat

maps and and analyze scroll and heat maps and and analyze scroll and heat Maps um then I think that's really

Maps um then I think that's really Maps um then I think that's really important so two resources that I think

important so two resources that I think important so two resources that I think lean that way one that's affordable uh

lean that way one that's affordable uh lean that way one that's affordable uh if you don't have budget is our if you don't have budget is our if you don't have budget is our conversion rate Academy not just to plug

conversion rate Academy not just to plug conversion rate Academy not just to plug our stuff but is very good bit less than

our stuff but is very good bit less than our stuff but is very good bit less than $50 per month but if you do have um

$50 per month but if you do have um $50 per month but if you do have um enough money like I think it's $1,000

enough money like I think it's $1,000 enough money like I think it's $1,000 then cxls uh course is is bar none

then cxls uh course is is bar none then cxls uh course is is bar none probably the best on the market it's

probably the best on the market it's probably the best on the market it's fantastic it's goingon to go a lot more

fantastic it's goingon to go a lot more fantastic it's goingon to go a lot more into in depth about kind of analytics

into in depth about kind of analytics into in depth about kind of analytics and uh and kind of reports and how to

and uh and kind of reports and how to and uh and kind of reports and how to read them but getting a basic

read them but getting a basic read them but getting a basic understanding of conversion design is understanding of conversion design is understanding of conversion design is crucial as far as like software to run

crucial as far as like software to run crucial as far as like software to run the tests um there's not obviously now

the tests um there's not obviously now the tests um there's not obviously now that optimizes sunset Google opiz Sun

that optimizes sunset Google opiz Sun that optimizes sunset Google opiz Sun been sunsetted there's not too many that

been sunsetted there's not too many that been sunsetted there's not too many that are like really Mass Market affordable

are like really Mass Market affordable are like really Mass Market affordable uh however convert.com is what we use

uh however convert.com is what we use uh however convert.com is what we use and we find that's a very very good bit

and we find that's a very very good bit and we find that's a very very good bit fit to kind of run those actual AB tests

fit to kind of run those actual AB tests fit to kind of run those actual AB tests as well I think understanding while

as well I think understanding while as well I think understanding while you're running the test instead of just

you're running the test instead of just you're running the test instead of just kind of like stabbing in the dark is a

kind of like stabbing in the dark is a kind of like stabbing in the dark is a very important first very important first very important first step and for all the different types of

step and for all the different types of step and for all the different types of AB testing you can do or the heat map

AB testing you can do or the heat map AB testing you can do or the heat map tools uh what is your guess on the

tools uh what is your guess on the tools uh what is your guess on the percentage of Affiliates or affiliate

percentage of Affiliates or affiliate percentage of Affiliates or affiliate programs that actually do conversion

programs that actually do conversion programs that actually do conversion rate optimization in my experience

rate optimization in my experience rate optimization in my experience minimal I think I think um affiliate

minimal I think I think um affiliate minimal I think I think um affiliate marketing and lead generation are two

marketing and lead generation are two marketing and lead generation are two huge markets that are very untapped when

huge markets that are very untapped when huge markets that are very untapped when it comes to cro uh and I say this from

it comes to cro uh and I say this from it comes to cro uh and I say this from someone who who runs a large C agency we

someone who who runs a large C agency we someone who who runs a large C agency we primarily focus on Ecom I think Ecom

primarily focus on Ecom I think Ecom primarily focus on Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just knows that above a

gets it Ecom just knows that above a gets it Ecom just knows that above a certain volume you should be doing tests

certain volume you should be doing tests certain volume you should be doing tests because the and and I'm going to say

because the and and I'm going to say because the and and I'm going to say this outright more tests will lose than

this outright more tests will lose than this outright more tests will lose than win but those winning tests on large

win but those winning tests on large win but those winning tests on large volume of data can cover the losses of

volume of data can cover the losses of volume of data can cover the losses of the of the losing tests and they can be

the of the losing tests and they can be the of the losing tests and they can be like literally lifechanging gamechanging

like literally lifechanging gamechanging like literally lifechanging gamechanging for your business um but I I feel like

for your business um but I I feel like for your business um but I I feel like affiliate marketing in my experience is

affiliate marketing in my experience is affiliate marketing in my experience is a is a little bit more um let's just get

a is a little bit more um let's just get a is a little bit more um let's just get out there and and put all pressure on

out there and and put all pressure on out there and and put all pressure on Affiliates as opposed to like taking

Affiliates as opposed to like taking Affiliates as opposed to like taking responsibility of actually does this

responsibility of actually does this responsibility of actually does this convert will let the affiliate worry

convert will let the affiliate worry convert will let the affiliate worry about it so again even if you're using

about it so again even if you're using about it so again even if you're using advertisers Pages um or you're allowed

advertisers Pages um or you're allowed advertisers Pages um or you're allowed to use your own pages I think it's

to use your own pages I think it's to use your own pages I think it's hugely hugely untapped in the affin

hugely hugely untapped in the affin hugely hugely untapped in the affin space for sure next question I've got is

space for sure next question I've got is space for sure next question I've got is kind of what I believe to be true and I

kind of what I believe to be true and I kind of what I believe to be true and I kind of want to see if you agree or

kind of want to see if you agree or kind of want to see if you agree or would correct me I just believe like you

would correct me I just believe like you would correct me I just believe like you know for all the like the topic of

know for all the like the topic of know for all the like the topic of conversion rate optimization for how conversion rate optimization for how conversion rate optimization for how long it's been around I feel that people

long it's been around I feel that people long it's been around I feel that people gravitate more towards SEO and as if

gravitate more towards SEO and as if gravitate more towards SEO and as if like C's been kind of neglected do you

like C's been kind of neglected do you like C's been kind of neglected do you believe that to be true uh I I'm going

believe that to be true uh I I'm going believe that to be true uh I I'm going to go one step further here and I'm

to go one step further here and I'm to go one step further here and I'm going to say that I think media like

going to say that I think media like going to say that I think media like paid Media or acquisition traffic is is

paid Media or acquisition traffic is is paid Media or acquisition traffic is is 100% um Shadows kind of cro I think

100% um Shadows kind of cro I think 100% um Shadows kind of cro I think everyone is fixated you know I'm lucky

everyone is fixated you know I'm lucky everyone is fixated you know I'm lucky enough to have spoken on some like this

enough to have spoken on some like this enough to have spoken on some like this some incredible podcasts and and and

some incredible podcasts and and and some incredible podcasts and and and some of the biggest kind of affiliate

some of the biggest kind of affiliate some of the biggest kind of affiliate and and events in the world and 90% of

and and events in the world and 90% of and and events in the world and 90% of the talks are all about acquisition it's

the talks are all about acquisition it's the talks are all about acquisition it's about traffic it's about how can we get

about traffic it's about how can we get about traffic it's about how can we get more people to your site whether that's

more people to your site whether that's more people to your site whether that's bya search whether that's bya Facebook

bya search whether that's bya Facebook bya search whether that's bya Facebook Instagram snap it doesn't matter like

Instagram snap it doesn't matter like Instagram snap it doesn't matter like it's all about how can we just get

it's all about how can we just get it's all about how can we just get cheaper clicks and more people to our

cheaper clicks and more people to our cheaper clicks and more people to our site to scale and what gets neglected is

site to scale and what gets neglected is site to scale and what gets neglected is actually turning more of those clicks

actually turning more of those clicks actually turning more of those clicks into customers you are sending you are

into customers you are sending you are into customers you are sending you are paying for the exact same this is this

paying for the exact same this is this paying for the exact same this is this is a if someone asked me like how do you

is a if someone asked me like how do you is a if someone asked me like how do you explain cro to your like Grandma or

explain cro to your like Grandma or explain cro to your like Grandma or someone who has no idea what what it is

someone who has no idea what what it is someone who has no idea what what it is which I have to do a lot by the way my

which I have to do a lot by the way my which I have to do a lot by the way my parents do even understand it um I use

parents do even understand it um I use parents do even understand it um I use this analogy you are paying for 100,000

this analogy you are paying for 100,000 this analogy you are paying for 100,000 people to go to a website now you are

people to go to a website now you are people to go to a website now you are still paying the exact same amount and

still paying the exact same amount and still paying the exact same amount and the exact same 100,000 people to go to

the exact same 100,000 people to go to the exact same 100,000 people to go to an optimized website now the unoptimized

an optimized website now the unoptimized an optimized website now the unoptimized website may make you a thousand sales

website may make you a thousand sales website may make you a thousand sales the exact same amount of people that you

the exact same amount of people that you the exact same amount of people that you paying the exact same amount for go to

paying the exact same amount for go to paying the exact same amount for go to uh site B that's optimized and then that

uh site B that's optimized and then that uh site B that's optimized and then that might make you 3,000 sales so like

might make you 3,000 sales so like might make you 3,000 sales so like you'll literally double oping your you'll literally double oping your you'll literally double oping your business just by optimizing traffic that

business just by optimizing traffic that business just by optimizing traffic that is always going I think to go back to

is always going I think to go back to is always going I think to go back to your search and SEO related question I

your search and SEO related question I your search and SEO related question I think it's the same you know if you have

think it's the same you know if you have think it's the same you know if you have a good amount of traffic coming to your

a good amount of traffic coming to your a good amount of traffic coming to your website yeah you want to get more of

website yeah you want to get more of website yeah you want to get more of course you do but first and foremost

course you do but first and foremost course you do but first and foremost make sure that website is so fine-tuned

make sure that website is so fine-tuned make sure that website is so fine-tuned that let's say the 10,000 of people who

that let's say the 10,000 of people who that let's say the 10,000 of people who are coming through search uh every

are coming through search uh every are coming through search uh every single month are turning into a thousand

single month are turning into a thousand single month are turning into a thousand customers instead of 500 customers and I

customers instead of 500 customers and I customers instead of 500 customers and I think that's that's what that as you

think that's that's what that as you think that's that's what that as you said often gets kind of forgetted and

said often gets kind of forgetted and said often gets kind of forgetted and neglected because people just they want

neglected because people just they want neglected because people just they want to scale with acquisition instead of

to scale with acquisition instead of to scale with acquisition instead of okay we can actually double our business okay we can actually double our business okay we can actually double our business from the same amount of traffic by

from the same amount of traffic by from the same amount of traffic by focusing on c yeah I I believe this to

focusing on c yeah I I believe this to focusing on c yeah I I believe this to be true on the affiliate uh program or

be true on the affiliate uh program or be true on the affiliate uh program or operator side of business where uh I've

operator side of business where uh I've operator side of business where uh I've got thousands of affiliate accounts and

got thousands of affiliate accounts and got thousands of affiliate accounts and I've never ever ever had one affiliate

I've never ever ever had one affiliate I've never ever ever had one affiliate manager approached me and said John you

manager approached me and said John you manager approached me and said John you know the tracking link you're using we

know the tracking link you're using we know the tracking link you're using we have one that converts at two and a half

have one that converts at two and a half have one that converts at two and a half times better performance would you like

times better performance would you like times better performance would you like to switch it just never happens and I

to switch it just never happens and I to switch it just never happens and I ask these affiliate managers and

ask these affiliate managers and ask these affiliate managers and operators do you know the conversion

operators do you know the conversion operators do you know the conversion rate of your of all your tracking links

rate of your of all your tracking links rate of your of all your tracking links they say yes and then when I ask them

they say yes and then when I ask them they say yes and then when I ask them the next question would you like an the next question would you like an the next question would you like an audit they also say yes and it's like

audit they also say yes and it's like audit they also say yes and it's like you wouldn't say yes to both questions

you wouldn't say yes to both questions you wouldn't say yes to both questions if you really knew what you guys were

if you really knew what you guys were if you really knew what you guys were doing yeah I I think I think it's uh the

doing yeah I I think I think it's uh the doing yeah I I think I think it's uh the amount of advertisers or Affiliates that

amount of advertisers or Affiliates that amount of advertisers or Affiliates that we work with versus like Ecom on on

we work with versus like Ecom on on we work with versus like Ecom on on product owners is is yeah probably 95%

product owners is is yeah probably 95% product owners is is yeah probably 95% in the favor of Ecom so we we do work

in the favor of Ecom so we we do work in the favor of Ecom so we we do work with the occasion affiliate offer um and

with the occasion affiliate offer um and with the occasion affiliate offer um and there are some people that put value on

there are some people that put value on there are some people that put value on cro or good good highly performing

cro or good good highly performing cro or good good highly performing landing pages when it comes to affiliate

landing pages when it comes to affiliate landing pages when it comes to affiliate marketing but I think that's that's a

marketing but I think that's that's a marketing but I think that's that's a very you know small sector of the market

very you know small sector of the market very you know small sector of the market and I think affiliate marketing in my

and I think affiliate marketing in my and I think affiliate marketing in my opinion in my experience and I've been

opinion in my experience and I've been opinion in my experience and I've been in this industry for a long time is a

in this industry for a long time is a in this industry for a long time is a lot more like set foret just check it

lot more like set foret just check it lot more like set foret just check it out how quickly can we get a page out

out how quickly can we get a page out out how quickly can we get a page out how quickly can we get some Affiliates how quickly can we get some Affiliates how quickly can we get some Affiliates to send some traffic how can we scrub a

to send some traffic how can we scrub a to send some traffic how can we scrub a bit of that that that that that money

bit of that that that that that money bit of that that that that that money that's coming in and how can we move on

that's coming in and how can we move on that's coming in and how can we move on to the next shiny object and get a page

to the next shiny object and get a page to the next shiny object and get a page out and you know it's it's uh I think

out and you know it's it's uh I think out and you know it's it's uh I think you can build a really big sustainable

you can build a really big sustainable you can build a really big sustainable uh business around affiliate marketing

uh business around affiliate marketing uh business around affiliate marketing if you actually take the time to you

if you actually take the time to you if you actually take the time to you know believe in things like building know believe in things like building know believe in things like building actually a real good page that's branded

actually a real good page that's branded actually a real good page that's branded and uh is is you know very much white

and uh is is you know very much white and uh is is you know very much white hat but also focuses a lot on kind of c

hat but also focuses a lot on kind of c hat but also focuses a lot on kind of c and optimization so yeah I think it's

and optimization so yeah I think it's and optimization so yeah I think it's huge down to and how how does conversion

huge down to and how how does conversion huge down to and how how does conversion rate optimization help and influence

rate optimization help and influence rate optimization help and influence search engine

search engine search engine optimization it can so definitely can

optimization it can so definitely can optimization it can so definitely can because when it comes to like web design

because when it comes to like web design because when it comes to like web design so search is a is a unique beast and and

so search is a is a unique beast and and so search is a is a unique beast and and I say that by if you are getting a very

I say that by if you are getting a very I say that by if you are getting a very good amount of traffic via search the

good amount of traffic via search the good amount of traffic via search the argument is always okay well we

argument is always okay well we argument is always okay well we shouldn't really change our website

shouldn't really change our website shouldn't really change our website because you know that can affect the the

because you know that can affect the the because you know that can affect the the kind of algorithms if you remove text

kind of algorithms if you remove text kind of algorithms if you remove text orve around that obviously Google likes

orve around that obviously Google likes orve around that obviously Google likes and ranks um it can have a negative

and ranks um it can have a negative and ranks um it can have a negative effect and I don't disagree but what

effect and I don't disagree but what effect and I don't disagree but what you're doing with uh cro is you're not

you're doing with uh cro is you're not you're doing with uh cro is you're not playing with like especially when you're playing with like especially when you're playing with like especially when you're doing ad testing you're not playing with

doing ad testing you're not playing with doing ad testing you're not playing with like a completely different website

like a completely different website like a completely different website you're not replacing the back end you're

you're not replacing the back end you're you're not replacing the back end you're not facing the content layout you are

not facing the content layout you are not facing the content layout you are you're testing individual elements that

you're testing individual elements that you're testing individual elements that you know can we get more people from the

you know can we get more people from the you know can we get more people from the homepage through to collection page or

homepage through to collection page or homepage through to collection page or can we get more people uh into our lead

can we get more people uh into our lead can we get more people uh into our lead funnels because we're getting paid per funnels because we're getting paid per funnels because we're getting paid per lead on our website and that's not

lead on our website and that's not lead on our website and that's not necessarily always like okay let's look

necessarily always like okay let's look necessarily always like okay let's look at rebuilding the whole site which would

at rebuilding the whole site which would at rebuilding the whole site which would then obviously maybe potentially affect

then obviously maybe potentially affect then obviously maybe potentially affect your search uh search results it's

your search uh search results it's your search uh search results it's instead saying okay can we add this

instead saying okay can we add this instead saying okay can we add this section above the fold that has a

section above the fold that has a section above the fold that has a directional Quee uh and has some social

directional Quee uh and has some social directional Quee uh and has some social proof that encourage people more people

proof that encourage people more people proof that encourage people more people to click through to your lead form uh

to click through to your lead form uh to click through to your lead form uh that's going to generate you more that's going to generate you more that's going to generate you more revenue and get more people into your revenue and get more people into your revenue and get more people into your flow um and I think that's that's uh

flow um and I think that's that's uh flow um and I think that's that's uh almost like myth is like you can't

almost like myth is like you can't almost like myth is like you can't really PIR C CEO SEO and cro because you

really PIR C CEO SEO and cro because you really PIR C CEO SEO and cro because you know it's going to be huge changes to my

know it's going to be huge changes to my know it's going to be huge changes to my site that are detrimental to my rankings

site that are detrimental to my rankings site that are detrimental to my rankings it's not often the case especially if it's not often the case especially if it's not often the case especially if you have a lot of data you can certainly

you have a lot of data you can certainly you have a lot of data you can certainly play the two games at once um you just

play the two games at once um you just play the two games at once um you just have to use an agency that knows they

have to use an agency that knows they have to use an agency that knows they can't change the whole website because can't change the whole website because can't change the whole website because it's going to affect your ranking and

it's going to affect your ranking and it's going to affect your ranking and given your experience in building given your experience in building given your experience in building communities do you think communities are communities do you think communities are communities do you think communities are going to just get stronger as we're now

going to just get stronger as we're now going to just get stronger as we're now in the the era of AI content where I

in the the era of AI content where I in the the era of AI content where I mean Google's getting blasted with

mean Google's getting blasted with mean Google's getting blasted with content left right and center and I

content left right and center and I content left right and center and I think the the two channels that maybe

think the the two channels that maybe think the the two channels that maybe are where people will gravitate towards

are where people will gravitate towards are where people will gravitate towards will be video because it you can't quite

will be video because it you can't quite will be video because it you can't quite fake video and communities where you're

fake video and communities where you're fake video and communities where you're basically connecting with real people I

basically connecting with real people I basically connecting with real people I I think that last statement is crucial

I think that last statement is crucial I think that last statement is crucial it's that like real connection um and

it's that like real connection um and it's that like real connection um and that's that's really what I've yeah I

that's that's really what I've yeah I that's that's really what I've yeah I have a a cro agency yeah I built an

have a a cro agency yeah I built an have a a cro agency yeah I built an affiliate Community but effectively it

affiliate Community but effectively it affiliate Community but effectively it was always a community behind it even

was always a community behind it even was always a community behind it even with our cro agency everything we do is

with our cro agency everything we do is with our cro agency everything we do is organic uh I am the face of the business

organic uh I am the face of the business organic uh I am the face of the business uh years ago I read a book called by an

uh years ago I read a book called by an uh years ago I read a book called by an English artist called um hey person of

English artist called um hey person of English artist called um hey person of influence a guy called Daniel priesty

influence a guy called Daniel priesty influence a guy called Daniel priesty and I just became fixated on this like

and I just became fixated on this like and I just became fixated on this like being a key person of influence within

being a key person of influence within being a key person of influence within whatever you do and that's all about

whatever you do and that's all about whatever you do and that's all about Community you know you can actually put

Community you know you can actually put Community you know you can actually put Community into so many different uh Wars

Community into so many different uh Wars Community into so many different uh Wars of life you know an email list a

of life you know an email list a of life you know an email list a newsletter a Facebook group Discord a

newsletter a Facebook group Discord a newsletter a Facebook group Discord a YouTube channel it's all about like

YouTube channel it's all about like YouTube channel it's all about like having that connection and that Network

having that connection and that Network having that connection and that Network and that direct t point with people that

and that direct t point with people that and that direct t point with people that I think is never going to go away it it

I think is never going to go away it it I think is never going to go away it it evolves of course it does you know uh

evolves of course it does you know uh evolves of course it does you know uh back when I started as I said you know back when I started as I said you know back when I started as I said you know Facebook groups would have play forums

Facebook groups would have play forums Facebook groups would have play forums would thing there was not no such thing

would thing there was not no such thing would thing there was not no such thing as a Facebook group we were on like V

as a Facebook group we were on like V as a Facebook group we were on like V bulletins Zen Bor like these actual

bulletins Zen Bor like these actual bulletins Zen Bor like these actual hardcore forums that you've had to sign

hardcore forums that you've had to sign hardcore forums that you've had to sign up for physically typing I mean I've

up for physically typing I mean I've up for physically typing I mean I've still own one I we have one for our

still own one I we have one for our still own one I we have one for our conversion right Academy is built on conversion right Academy is built on conversion right Academy is built on zenor because I'm a community geek at

zenor because I'm a community geek at zenor because I'm a community geek at heart um but but now you know you have

heart um but but now you know you have heart um but but now you know you have Facebook groups that evolved then you've

Facebook groups that evolved then you've Facebook groups that evolved then you've had sort of Discord telegram WhatsApp um

had sort of Discord telegram WhatsApp um had sort of Discord telegram WhatsApp um it's get a startop I I think what is

it's get a startop I I think what is it's get a startop I I think what is really important is having that direct

really important is having that direct really important is having that direct connection you know even in the world of

connection you know even in the world of connection you know even in the world of AI you can kind of tell you you might

AI you can kind of tell you you might AI you can kind of tell you you might not be able to tell like when people are

not be able to tell like when people are not be able to tell like when people are uh kind of using AI to ghost right for

uh kind of using AI to ghost right for uh kind of using AI to ghost right for them or come up with content but you can

them or come up with content but you can them or come up with content but you can tell when someone's not getting on video

tell when someone's not getting on video tell when someone's not getting on video or not doing podcasts like this or not

or not doing podcasts like this or not or not doing podcasts like this or not directly connecting with their netw

directly connecting with their netw directly connecting with their netw worth I think the connection part that

worth I think the connection part that worth I think the connection part that you mentioned is is the bit that's just

you mentioned is is the bit that's just you mentioned is is the bit that's just going to go on and those who continue to

going to go on and those who continue to going to go on and those who continue to connect and actually show up and show

connect and actually show up and show connect and actually show up and show that a real person um are going to be

that a real person um are going to be that a real person um are going to be way way way more followable if that's the word or

more followable if that's the word or more followable if that's the word or you know connectable than someone who's

you know connectable than someone who's you know connectable than someone who's just kind of spinning out all this AI

just kind of spinning out all this AI just kind of spinning out all this AI fake content for sure and what do you

fake content for sure and what do you fake content for sure and what do you think about AI heat maps and do you

think about AI heat maps and do you think about AI heat maps and do you think C is going to be more automated

think C is going to be more automated think C is going to be more automated with AI yes uh I think I I don't think

with AI yes uh I think I I don't think with AI yes uh I think I I don't think excuse me I don't think the

excuse me I don't think the excuse me I don't think the actual testing of C is going to be more

actual testing of C is going to be more actual testing of C is going to be more automated but I think AI makes reporting

automated but I think AI makes reporting automated but I think AI makes reporting a lot easier so I have a very good

a lot easier so I have a very good a lot easier so I have a very good friend a guy called Dylan Ander um and

friend a guy called Dylan Ander um and friend a guy called Dylan Ander um and he recently launched heat map.com I

he recently launched heat map.com I he recently launched heat map.com I don't know if youve seen it uh for those

don't know if youve seen it uh for those don't know if youve seen it uh for those of you who haven't seen it this is the

of you who haven't seen it this is the of you who haven't seen it this is the only heat map you should be using the

only heat map you should be using the only heat map you should be using the reason I say it it's the first ever

reason I say it it's the first ever reason I say it it's the first ever Revenue back te so Dylan had this genius

Revenue back te so Dylan had this genius Revenue back te so Dylan had this genius idea of like okay things like um hot jar

idea of like okay things like um hot jar idea of like okay things like um hot jar Etc will tell you where people click

Etc will tell you where people click Etc will tell you where people click that's cool you can see where people

that's cool you can see where people that's cool you can see where people click but a click doesn't always add up

click but a click doesn't always add up click but a click doesn't always add up to a sale whereas what heat map does is

to a sale whereas what heat map does is to a sale whereas what heat map does is it attributes the click to the sale so

it attributes the click to the sale so it attributes the click to the sale so you might actually have an element on you might actually have an element on you might actually have an element on the site that gets fewer clicks that

the site that gets fewer clicks that the site that gets fewer clicks that heat that hot jar for example would say

heat that hot jar for example would say heat that hot jar for example would say that's sure that's sure get rid of that

that's sure that's sure get rid of that that's sure that's sure get rid of that that's getting fewer clicks that button

that's getting fewer clicks that button that's getting fewer clicks that button actually might be the one that's actually might be the one that's actually might be the one that's generating you the checkouts of the generating you the checkouts of the generating you the checkouts of the revenue so um heat map.com for sure

revenue so um heat map.com for sure revenue so um heat map.com for sure check it out that is uh that's a game

check it out that is uh that's a game check it out that is uh that's a game changer as far as the kind of heat map changer as far as the kind of heat map changer as far as the kind of heat map industry they are building in some

industry they are building in some industry they are building in some really cool AI Automation in there uh

really cool AI Automation in there uh really cool AI Automation in there uh that's going to kind of again it's not

that's going to kind of again it's not that's going to kind of again it's not going to it's not going to do the work

going to it's not going to do the work going to it's not going to do the work for you but it's going to make the for you but it's going to make the for you but it's going to make the reporting and the understanding of the

reporting and the understanding of the reporting and the understanding of the actual software a lot easier so it's

actual software a lot easier so it's actual software a lot easier so it's going to make suggestions based on your

going to make suggestions based on your going to make suggestions based on your data so you know it's going to come up

data so you know it's going to come up data so you know it's going to come up and say have you looked at this and

and say have you looked at this and and say have you looked at this and doing this because of this button for

doing this because of this button for doing this because of this button for example so you know it might suggest

example so you know it might suggest example so you know it might suggest that uh you know have you have you

that uh you know have you have you that uh you know have you have you noticed that the the button below the

noticed that the the button below the noticed that the the button below the fold is actually generating you most of

fold is actually generating you most of fold is actually generating you most of the revenue why not change the content

the revenue why not change the content the revenue why not change the content above the fold to follow the say um so

above the fold to follow the say um so above the fold to follow the say um so it will definitely be more of a it will definitely be more of a it will definitely be more of a suggested approach and I think reporting

suggested approach and I think reporting suggested approach and I think reporting and kind of analytic analytical side of

and kind of analytic analytical side of and kind of analytic analytical side of things is going to get easier and

things is going to get easier and things is going to get easier and information is going to be made more

information is going to be made more information is going to be made more abundance through Ai and more kind of

abundance through Ai and more kind of abundance through Ai and more kind of accurate but I don't know necessarily if

accurate but I don't know necessarily if accurate but I don't know necessarily if creating the actual hypothesis and

creating the actual hypothesis and creating the actual hypothesis and testing uh is going to be automated I

testing uh is going to be automated I testing uh is going to be automated I still believe you need um someone with a

still believe you need um someone with a still believe you need um someone with a bit of knowledge on the kind of bit of knowledge on the kind of bit of knowledge on the kind of Frameworks and because it's not landing

Frameworks and because it's not landing Frameworks and because it's not landing page design is very much you can very

page design is very much you can very page design is very much you can very much wireframe it and you can kind of

much wireframe it and you can kind of much wireframe it and you can kind of hit hit those high high conversion rates

hit hit those high high conversion rates hit hit those high high conversion rates 90% of the time when it comes to mass

90% of the time when it comes to mass 90% of the time when it comes to mass volume of data where audiences and

volume of data where audiences and volume of data where audiences and demographics are so different based on

demographics are so different based on demographics are so different based on different products different offers it

different products different offers it different products different offers it needs some form of human um uh

needs some form of human um uh needs some form of human um uh interaction and and knowledge to know

interaction and and knowledge to know interaction and and knowledge to know what to test and again a lot tests lose

what to test and again a lot tests lose what to test and again a lot tests lose they do even if they humans doing it but

they do even if they humans doing it but they do even if they humans doing it but I think AI will advance as far as

I think AI will advance as far as I think AI will advance as far as software and Reporting but I still think

software and Reporting but I still think software and Reporting but I still think you need uh conversion wise do the

you need uh conversion wise do the you need uh conversion wise do the testing for you exactly so so given your

testing for you exactly so so given your testing for you exactly so so given your experience uh I want to ask this is kind

experience uh I want to ask this is kind experience uh I want to ask this is kind of like uh your chance to show about uh

of like uh your chance to show about uh of like uh your chance to show about uh I'm going to give you let's say 100

I'm going to give you let's say 100 I'm going to give you let's say 100 hypothetical uh landing pages and going

hypothetical uh landing pages and going hypothetical uh landing pages and going to ask you to optimize them without

to ask you to optimize them without to ask you to optimize them without using any of your tools just your

using any of your tools just your using any of your tools just your experience what would you say your score

experience what would you say your score experience what would you say your score would be in terms of always getting uh

would be in terms of always getting uh would be in terms of always getting uh an improvement in an improvement in an improvement in score Improvement I would say eight to

score Improvement I would say eight to score Improvement I would say eight to nine times out of 10 um you can with

nine times out of 10 um you can with nine times out of 10 um you can with landing pages as I said you can follow

landing pages as I said you can follow landing pages as I said you can follow specific Frameworks that we have kind of

specific Frameworks that we have kind of specific Frameworks that we have kind of pioneered and built uh over the last

pioneered and built uh over the last pioneered and built uh over the last decade uh and nine times out of 10

decade uh and nine times out of 10 decade uh and nine times out of 10 depending on your Niche and I'll go into

depending on your Niche and I'll go into depending on your Niche and I'll go into a little bit more about that um they

a little bit more about that um they a little bit more about that um they will convert better than probably what

will convert better than probably what will convert better than probably what you have already um where there are

you have already um where there are you have already um where there are discrepancies and where there are um I

discrepancies and where there are um I discrepancies and where there are um I guess differences uh in that very

guess differences uh in that very guess differences uh in that very specific niches for example if you own a

specific niches for example if you own a specific niches for example if you own a apparel brand that is a luxury apparel

apparel brand that is a luxury apparel apparel brand that is a luxury apparel brand it's highly branded it's more

brand it's highly branded it's more brand it's highly branded it's more about the kind of Aesthetics it's more

about the kind of Aesthetics it's more about the kind of Aesthetics it's more about the look The Brand um the colors

about the look The Brand um the colors about the look The Brand um the colors used you know we may suggest on other

used you know we may suggest on other used you know we may suggest on other brands to use a specific colored button

brands to use a specific colored button brands to use a specific colored button that stands out against your your normal

that stands out against your your normal that stands out against your your normal brand so it gets more clicks however on

brand so it gets more clicks however on brand so it gets more clicks however on an apparel brand that can actually play

an apparel brand that can actually play an apparel brand that can actually play a negative effect on certain things uh

a negative effect on certain things uh a negative effect on certain things uh we might suggest using inventory uh

we might suggest using inventory uh we might suggest using inventory uh stock alert icons that say like only

stock alert icons that say like only stock alert icons that say like only four left in stock or 10 were bought

four left in stock or 10 were bought four left in stock or 10 were bought today on some particular luxury or um

today on some particular luxury or um today on some particular luxury or um high-end kind of brands that can high-end kind of brands that can high-end kind of brands that can actually have a negative effect so there

actually have a negative effect so there actually have a negative effect so there are definitely computations where it's

are definitely computations where it's are definitely computations where it's not a one-size fitel 100% and that also

not a one-size fitel 100% and that also not a one-size fitel 100% and that also is um way more uh easy to find out what

is um way more uh easy to find out what is um way more uh easy to find out what they are when you get to a high level of

they are when you get to a high level of they are when you get to a high level of of traffic but if you are under that

of traffic but if you are under that of traffic but if you are under that kind of like 50,000 hits per month there

kind of like 50,000 hits per month there kind of like 50,000 hits per month there is definitely a framework to follow

is definitely a framework to follow is definitely a framework to follow where you tip conversion principal boxes

where you tip conversion principal boxes where you tip conversion principal boxes and just very quickly there are things and just very quickly there are things and just very quickly there are things like trust credibility social proofs

like trust credibility social proofs like trust credibility social proofs desire um you know correct layouts uh

desire um you know correct layouts uh desire um you know correct layouts uh having a strong value proposition

having a strong value proposition having a strong value proposition handling objections using FS to to

handling objections using FS to to handling objections using FS to to handle those objections using uh reviews

handle those objections using uh reviews handle those objections using uh reviews with uh objection handling statements

with uh objection handling statements with uh objection handling statements within them to then remove friction from

within them to then remove friction from within them to then remove friction from your customers usability is huge so

your customers usability is huge so your customers usability is huge so actually having a site that's actually actually having a site that's actually actually having a site that's actually really easy to use and doesn't have really easy to use and doesn't have really easy to use and doesn't have bottlenecks where people drop up if

bottlenecks where people drop up if bottlenecks where people drop up if they're in the car the check out or

they're in the car the check out or they're in the car the check out or they're going down a multi-step form on

they're going down a multi-step form on they're going down a multi-step form on the leaden side form on the lead gen

the leaden side form on the lead gen the leaden side form on the lead gen side but they don't have a progress bar side but they don't have a progress bar side but they don't have a progress bar so they don't know where they are within

so they don't know where they are within so they don't know where they are within the within the funnel like there's all

the within the funnel like there's all the within the funnel like there's all these little things that depending on

these little things that depending on these little things that depending on what you're trying to do if you're doing what you're trying to do if you're doing what you're trying to do if you're doing coaching if you're doing uh digital

coaching if you're doing uh digital coaching if you're doing uh digital products physical products Ecom Leen

products physical products Ecom Leen products physical products Ecom Leen vsls aatori like all these different

vsls aatori like all these different vsls aatori like all these different wireframes that have a different layout

wireframes that have a different layout wireframes that have a different layout that work best and we're just lucky that

that work best and we're just lucky that that work best and we're just lucky that we work with like 3,500 plus brands that

we work with like 3,500 plus brands that we work with like 3,500 plus brands that we have been able to build Frameworks

we have been able to build Frameworks we have been able to build Frameworks based on their data so we've kind of

based on their data so we've kind of based on their data so we've kind of used them as guinea pigs obviously more

used them as guinea pigs obviously more used them as guinea pigs obviously more so eight nine years ago when like Tim

so eight nine years ago when like Tim so eight nine years ago when like Tim was kind of running offers and we were

was kind of running offers and we were was kind of running offers and we were using bwa to build these Frameworks now

using bwa to build these Frameworks now using bwa to build these Frameworks now we kind of pretty much have it nailed we kind of pretty much have it nailed we kind of pretty much have it nailed down but doesn't always work it doesn't

down but doesn't always work it doesn't down but doesn't always work it doesn't but eight nine times out and it will so

but eight nine times out and it will so but eight nine times out and it will so on the opposite side I believe most

on the opposite side I believe most on the opposite side I believe most designers they don't really understand

designers they don't really understand designers they don't really understand or study user experience design or

or study user experience design or or study user experience design or conversion rate optimization so how

conversion rate optimization so how conversion rate optimization so how often do you run into clients that say

often do you run into clients that say often do you run into clients that say hey I have a new web design and it's

hey I have a new web design and it's hey I have a new web design and it's actually converting worse what happened

actually converting worse what happened actually converting worse what happened yeah a lot and typically that is uh

yeah a lot and typically that is uh yeah a lot and typically that is uh you've kind of summed up in your

you've kind of summed up in your you've kind of summed up in your question typically that will happen

question typically that will happen question typically that will happen where people employ designers that make

where people employ designers that make where people employ designers that make beautiful websites and they may look

beautiful websites and they may look beautiful websites and they may look aesthetically amazing you look at it and

aesthetically amazing you look at it and aesthetically amazing you look at it and you just think wow that's really nicely

you just think wow that's really nicely you just think wow that's really nicely designed from a Brands perspective or

designed from a Brands perspective or designed from a Brands perspective or you know all these visual effects and

you know all these visual effects and you know all these visual effects and colors and blah blah blah but ultimately

colors and blah blah blah but ultimately colors and blah blah blah but ultimately the the question I always pour my team

the the question I always pour my team the the question I always pour my team to ask people is like do you want

to ask people is like do you want to ask people is like do you want something that looks nice or something something that looks nice or something something that looks nice or something that makes you money and the end goal

that makes you money and the end goal that makes you money and the end goal for me is always Revenue it's Revenue

for me is always Revenue it's Revenue for me is always Revenue it's Revenue per visitor conversion rates are per visitor conversion rates are per visitor conversion rates are actually a bit of a skew metric you actually a bit of a skew metric you actually a bit of a skew metric you shouldn't really focus on conversion

shouldn't really focus on conversion shouldn't really focus on conversion rate what you should focus on is revenue

rate what you should focus on is revenue rate what you should focus on is revenue per visitor because aov and conversion

per visitor because aov and conversion per visitor because aov and conversion rate can sometimes Clash um and you can

rate can sometimes Clash um and you can rate can sometimes Clash um and you can actually get a lower conversion rate but

actually get a lower conversion rate but actually get a lower conversion rate but your aov is up and it you think that

your aov is up and it you think that your aov is up and it you think that conversion rate is down you get higher conversion rate is down you get higher conversion rate is down you get higher conversion rate areas down and you think conversion rate areas down and you think conversion rate areas down and you think you've done a good job you're actually

you've done a good job you're actually you've done a good job you're actually losing money um but it is that whole

losing money um but it is that whole losing money um but it is that whole kind of age-old thing of like yeah I

kind of age-old thing of like yeah I kind of age-old thing of like yeah I agree I convert and it does but also you

agree I convert and it does but also you agree I convert and it does but also you can have a fine mix of branded design

can have a fine mix of branded design can have a fine mix of branded design with c with c with c that um it's going to it's going to work

that um it's going to it's going to work that um it's going to it's going to work but you you're you're right we see it a

but you you're you're right we see it a but you you're you're right we see it a lot and it typically is when people

lot and it typically is when people lot and it typically is when people employ a

employ a employ a nonperformance related designer for

nonperformance related designer for nonperformance related designer for performance related

performance related performance related business perfect way to summarize it and

business perfect way to summarize it and business perfect way to summarize it and last question what do you see as the

last question what do you see as the last question what do you see as the future of affiliate marketing as it

future of affiliate marketing as it future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business

intersects with business intersects with business intelligence future of affiliate

intelligence future of affiliate intelligence future of affiliate marketing I I don't see affiliate

marketing I I don't see affiliate marketing I I don't see affiliate marketing going anywhere I think uh the

marketing going anywhere I think uh the marketing going anywhere I think uh the way I've seen it is the way seen

way I've seen it is the way seen way I've seen it is the way seen affiliate marketing in my sort of small

affiliate marketing in my sort of small affiliate marketing in my sort of small bubble and space over the last few years

bubble and space over the last few years bubble and space over the last few years is it's gone more uh led into

is it's gone more uh led into is it's gone more uh led into Partnerships as opposed to affiliate so

Partnerships as opposed to affiliate so Partnerships as opposed to affiliate so like it's more partnership driven

like it's more partnership driven like it's more partnership driven obviously I work a lot with agency to

obviously I work a lot with agency to obviously I work a lot with agency to agency it's less now about kind of

agency it's less now about kind of agency it's less now about kind of affiliate links and it's more like uh

affiliate links and it's more like uh affiliate links and it's more like uh kind of direct intros Etc but on the on

kind of direct intros Etc but on the on kind of direct intros Etc but on the on the affiliate side where you kind of you

the affiliate side where you kind of you the affiliate side where you kind of you know you have Affiliates running your know you have Affiliates running your know you have Affiliates running your traffic and you have lots of traffic traffic and you have lots of traffic traffic and you have lots of traffic going um the way I've seen it evolve

going um the way I've seen it evolve going um the way I've seen it evolve over the years is just it's just becomes

over the years is just it's just becomes over the years is just it's just becomes a little bit more kind of compliant it

a little bit more kind of compliant it a little bit more kind of compliant it probably becomes a little bit harder to

probably becomes a little bit harder to probably becomes a little bit harder to do things that you used to be able to do do things that you used to be able to do do things that you used to be able to do that we were maybe doing 10 years ago uh

that we were maybe doing 10 years ago uh that we were maybe doing 10 years ago uh but I think that's all for the for the

but I think that's all for the for the but I think that's all for the for the benefit of the industry and I just think

benefit of the industry and I just think benefit of the industry and I just think Affiliates is just a very still a very

Affiliates is just a very still a very Affiliates is just a very still a very kind of like untapped and huge space

kind of like untapped and huge space kind of like untapped and huge space that again we work primarily now of Ecom

that again we work primarily now of Ecom that again we work primarily now of Ecom Brands and the percentage of Ecom brands

Brands and the percentage of Ecom brands Brands and the percentage of Ecom brands that actually have affiliate programs is

that actually have affiliate programs is that actually have affiliate programs is is minuscule and I think there is again

is minuscule and I think there is again is minuscule and I think there is again a huge opportunity for people to open up

a huge opportunity for people to open up a huge opportunity for people to open up affiliate programs yes you have to vet

affiliate programs yes you have to vet affiliate programs yes you have to vet your Affiliates yes I would

your Affiliates yes I would your Affiliates yes I would uh provide them with landing pages that

uh provide them with landing pages that uh provide them with landing pages that are approved by you guys and kind of

are approved by you guys and kind of are approved by you guys and kind of make sure the CR optimized but I don't

make sure the CR optimized but I don't make sure the CR optimized but I don't see it I don't see it going anywhere see it I don't see it going anywhere see it I don't see it going anywhere it's a brilliant model um you know you

it's a brilliant model um you know you it's a brilliant model um you know you get a slice of the pie they get a slice

get a slice of the pie they get a slice get a slice of the pie they get a slice of the pie and the customer should end

of the pie and the customer should end of the pie and the customer should end up with a good end result um I I I don't

up with a good end result um I I I don't up with a good end result um I I I don't see it fading any anytime soon

see it fading any anytime soon see it fading any anytime soon absolutely and Oliver thanks for doing

absolutely and Oliver thanks for doing absolutely and Oliver thanks for doing this where can people get a hold of you

this where can people get a hold of you this where can people get a hold of you really appreciate it yeah if you want to really appreciate it yeah if you want to really appreciate it yeah if you want to kind of get some more tips and tricks kind of get some more tips and tricks kind of get some more tips and tricks about C and kind of General Marketing in

about C and kind of General Marketing in about C and kind of General Marketing in Ecom then you can follow me um Oliver

Ecom then you can follow me um Oliver Ecom then you can follow me um Oliver Kenyan on Twitter or X as they call it

Kenyan on Twitter or X as they call it Kenyan on Twitter or X as they call it these days uh or if you want to just

these days uh or if you want to just these days uh or if you want to just learn a little bit more about what we

learn a little bit more about what we learn a little bit more about what we can do for you as a company um we can

can do for you as a company um we can can do for you as a company um we can build landing pages we can run your build landing pages we can run your build landing pages we can run your ongoing cro you can find us at

ongoing cro you can find us at ongoing cro you can find us at conversion conversion conversion wise and I'll put all those links in the

wise and I'll put all those links in the wise and I'll put all those links in the show note including the conversion

show note including the conversion show note including the conversion Academy that's a great place if you want

Academy that's a great place if you want Academy that's a great place if you want to learn yeah absolutely thanks a lot

to learn yeah absolutely thanks a lot to learn yeah absolutely thanks a lot thank you so much me John CH appreciate

thank you so much me John CH appreciate thank you so much me John CH appreciate it thank you for tuning in to the

it thank you for tuning in to the it thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take

affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for small favor to

this time to ask for small favor to this time to ask for small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you

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