Affiliate Manager Training & Tools with Dustin Howes

Show: Revenue Optimization with StatsDrone
Episode: Affiliate Manager Training & Tools with Dustin Howes
Host: John Wright
Guest: Dustin Howes
Published: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:51:00 +0000
Duration: 41:14

Speaker labels are a two-speaker split from pauses (host vs guest). Timestamps are `[HH:MM:SS]` from the episode audio. Light ASR; names and brands may need a pass.

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[00:00:00] John Wright: And if I was going to go any avenue right now, it would be the A.I. Avenue.

[00:00:06] Dustin Howes: Now, courses in A.I. are already outdated after a year that they are created, right? Like I A.I. is growing so fast. But the point is like if you get into the A.I. game and you start building stuff with it, you're going to be so valuable to a company in the next couple of years. It's going to be an incredible boost to your resume when you put things of like automating this with A.I.

[00:00:38] John Wright: It's going to it's going to go a long way.

[00:00:41] Dustin Howes: I'm John Wright, and you're listening to Affiliate BI, the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by Statstron. Welcome to the Affiliate BI podcast. Today, we're talking with Dustin Howes, who is the host of the affiliate nerd podcast, which I listen to and love it. He's also the co-founder of Afistash, which we're going to have to talk about very soon.

[00:01:07] Dustin Howes: He's also set up performance marketing manager. And when I think about affiliate marketing, Dustin's the number one guy that comes to mind. Dustin, welcome to the show. Oh, that's high praise there, John. Thanks for having me. That's true. So, I mean, obviously, with all the things that you're working on in affiliate marketing, how did this all happen? How did you get started? Was this purely accidental? I want to say everybody's tour in affiliate marketing came from an accident in some kind of capacity. So 14 years ago, I was playing poker for a living and not using my college degree.

[00:01:45] Dustin Howes: And then I had a I went dead broke playing poker because wasn't good enough. And I needed a job at the real career. And I got my first job at CJ in Santa Barbara when a friend hooked me up and got me an interview. So I went into compliance and then I found out cool. That's an alien world is and I decided, hey, I want to make this my career. So I worked for publishers, I worked for merchants, I worked for agencies and built my own agency. And then one day I was trying to figure out how to get more education. And I didn't see a lot of online opportunities out there.

[00:02:24] Dustin Howes: So I created Performance Marketing Manager, which is the only online course that teaches how to be a good affiliate manager and maximize value of your program. So I've been doing that for like six years, selling that online. And then I had some other really cool opportunities come up. And most of it is due to this podcast, like my reach over the last year because of affiliate nerd out has increased dramatically. And it's through hard work in a year, I'm almost up to 100 episodes. So I've been working hard at it. Yeah, congrats on that. It's you're doing two per week. I'm doing one per week.

[00:03:04] Dustin Howes: So you're definitely doubling the output, but it's not like you're filling it with a filler, it's like I jump on a bunch of random ones when you, when you go live and I'm like, wow, amazing. Yes. And yeah, it's a great work and you're definitely doing some pretty serious networking.

[00:03:19] Dustin Howes: Yeah. The networking is the great part about it. And I get to pick and choose the folks that come on. Like I don't take everybody on and I especially don't take on sponsors that I don't believe in. There's, there's been some folks that approached me trying to be a sponsor. I'm like, not a fit or I don't like your product and I will be blunt with them. And, uh, it's, I, the greatest part about having the podcast is having that freedom of picking and choosing the folks that you want to talk with. Just why you were such a great guests. I know you're such an affiliate nerd yourself. And I was happy. I loved our episode together and getting to know you a little bit more. Yeah. Thank you.

[00:03:59] Dustin Howes: Uh, so how do you, uh, politely let down the people that you don't want on the podcast?

[00:04:05] John Wright: Boy. Um, I, I hate ghosting people. I, I always give some kind of polite response like, Hey, I appreciate your interest, but I don't think this is a fit and I might give them an answer. I might give them a reason, but, uh, nobody's like coming back and, you know, throwing tomatoes at me for, for any particular reason they understand. Uh, and it's my brand. What are they going to do about it? Exactly. So you mentioned that you worked for CJ and obviously you would have seen the company back in its early days. And I think when I look back in time of like 10 to 15 years of first

[00:04:43] John Wright: hearing about like share sale and a win and CJ and click bank, like what do you see now, like at how massive these companies are? They're almost like household names in some aspects.

[00:04:55] Dustin Howes: Well, like marketing's come a long way, man. It's, um, it's grown. CJ was one of those OGs in the industry that, that dominated the market for affiliate tracking. They used to be one of the only names in the game and then share a sale. And some others came along and then impact, I think is doing the most incredible work in the industry right now and pushing the needle forward for the industry altogether. And then you've got others. I mean, there's at least 50 platforms that I couldn't name off the top of my head nowadays and people see the revenue model it's, it's incredible.

[00:05:32] Dustin Howes: Like if you get a client, uh, the, the turn rate is super low. And, uh, as long as you have a good product, you can keep that customer for a very, very long time. And it's just recurring revenue and it based on how much they're making as a company, which I love that model as well. But, um, yeah, so many great players in this industry as this, uh, economy just continues to grow. Now I've asked some of these software providers that do affiliate network software, like how many affiliate networks are there? And the numbers I keep hearing are in the five to 7,000 range. Do you think affiliate networks are going to get stronger as time goes

[00:06:12] Dustin Howes: on and become kind of like, uh, I don't want to call it a necessary evil, but almost like they're just essential.

[00:06:20] John Wright: Uh, I, I would argue that they would become less essential in the future. Um, and the reason being is I think.

[00:06:33] Dustin Howes: Builds within a company are going to be all inclusive.

[00:06:37] Dustin Howes: So affiliate tracking today on platforms like a keep or a, a click funnels or go high level. They all have these marketing tools that are doing all these things, but they're not doing any of the things necessarily great. I think there's going to be a trend where, uh, a company like a, a, a Karcher is a good example. I think they're making great acquisitions and great moves in the industry.

[00:07:06] John Wright: Putting on new tech stacks that are going to compliment their services existing. And I think companies like that are going to start acquiring, uh, tracking solutions to make their product a better fit because today, if I go and find a client that's on go high level or click funnels, I instantly say, you cannot build your affiliate program on this. Don't do it. It is just not dynamic enough, uh, for reporting and tracking reasons. You need to get on a third party and I, you know, in five to 10 years, I think that problem will be alleviated.

[00:07:45] Dustin Howes: I would agree with that. And I'd want to take it a step further and wish I could actually take that clip and put that into my pitch deck. Uh, you would have made my life a lot easier. Um, moving on to, um, lack of education. It's interesting that you said that your story of creating, um, it's a performance marketing manager was a lack of education and I believe it's so true. Um, what do we do about this aside from telling more people that to sign up to your program?

[00:08:13] John Wright: Uh, that's a great question. I've, I've been selling this course for six years now and I've just been banging my head up against the wall, trying to convince people that they need it. Um, and everybody that takes my course goes through the exact same statement of this is great. I wish I would have found this earlier. There's so much value out of this, this course. Um, but I can't talk people into that without them seeing it in real life. And I think that was my main motivation when I started affiliate nerd out is to gain trust with the folks and say, Hey, this is the free information.

[00:08:50] John Wright: What's the back behind the curtain information look like? I want to go see that. And that's been a generator for me, but overall, like it is a very odd place where kids that are two to three years into marketing and an affiliate management role think that they know everything about this industry. After like three years. And I remember myself thinking that I was a good affiliate manager. I don't need any more training. I can figure this out on my own. And then you get to this five, six, seven year mark, and you realize how little you know about this industry.

[00:09:28] Dustin Howes: Then you get to 10 years and 14 years and you realize I'm still an idiot. Like I could absolutely use additional information. So I don't know why people, I can't convey enough information in my marketing materials to make this a viable product that people absolutely need. But I can, I can learn from you, John, like you've got a lot of information that I don't know about and vice versa. And if I can go to a simple course that costs $300 and learn everything, you know, I would buy that every single day. Thanks.

[00:10:07] Dustin Howes: And I would say like, just to double down on the value of what your course can do. We have probably something like two to 3000 accounts. So we need an account for testing every program. And I can say like the messages that we get from most affiliate managers is just horrendous. It's I just want to scream at them and be like, you need a course. But of course me saying that is going to come off as a little condescending.

[00:10:31] Dustin Howes: But I think we're going to have to talk behind the scenes of going, how do we get these messages across? Because my opinion, affiliate marketing is going to double over in a short period of time and there's a massive opportunity. You take one of these courses and it's like, you know, don't just be average. Like there's so much opportunity. Just take the lead.

[00:10:50] John Wright: Oh yeah. The partnership marketing isn't going anywhere for the next five to 10 years where there are other marketing disciplines that are already suffering and dying in this industry. For example, SEOs are struggling more and more. It's a more competitive eye is taking care of a lot of their tasks that they get done. Now the, the, the good ones, the ones that have 10 plus years in, they're not struggling because they have insight that junior SEOs just don't have that experience with and have seen all the algorithm changes and can predict

[00:11:25] John Wright: the future a little bit better than juniors, but in affiliate marketing, partnership marketing, there's always going to be this aspect of talking to another person and AI is not going to be able to adapt to them in five years.

[00:11:41] John Wright: Yeah, fully agree. Um, so I already mentioned that, you know, something about the affiliate marketing doubling over, and I think I've read a stat that it's expected to double over in something like 20, 36. And aside from my belief that, uh, having better affiliate managers is going to actually increase, uh, make more money for the whole industry. What are other things you think are going to contribute to not just hitting this target, but maybe, um, making it happen a lot sooner than 2036. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the respect level for affiliate marketing is skyrocketing right now.

[00:12:19] John Wright: People are really understanding the value of referral partnerships and influencers preaching a brand because the company themselves and their marketing campaigns internally are trying to talk to people from the perspective of their product and how good it is. And that just doesn't do enough needle moving in my opinion. And influencers that have firsthand experience with your product are such a better closer in the long run for what companies are trying to do. And people are realizing the power of this channel, but where we have failed

[00:12:59] John Wright: in the past is affiliate marketing has been taking credit away from other channels, but never getting the credit. So what I mean by that is, uh, within most companies that I've ever worked with.

[00:13:18] Dustin Howes: Their internal marketing will say, Hey, this last touch was from PPC. We're going to give it credit over there. But what happened to the like three affiliates that touch this thing early on in that funnel? Now, sorry, you don't get any credit. So I think as marketing evolves and AI is getting better at tracking attribution and helping us be better marketers altogether, I think really we're going to get much more credit when we bucket all of the Mark assets and say, Hey, you had to touch point in this marketing, uh, affiliate marketing gets a touch point. Oh, PPC hit this.

[00:13:58] Dustin Howes: They get a portion of this as well. And the more dynamic we see that happening, the more credit affiliate is going to get, and the bigger this industry is going to rise from that. I think you're spot on in a sense that, I mean, a touch point could be they're seeing the affiliate ads. So it's there on a website and then they end up on the PPC channel. And I wouldn't be surprised if we can actually do some data studies in the near future, where you can actually say, what does a program look like when it does have this, like you're going to have so many touch points where there's no click activity, but that top of mind, um, exposure is going to

[00:14:35] Dustin Howes: lead to a higher click rate in on the PPC side where that's capturing the demand, but it's, um, no one's really understanding the demand gen side of things. Great, great points. And, and I think as the marketing teams evolve as well is, is where we're going to stop fighting with each other. Uh, I always talk about the affiliate channel is everybody else in the marketing team sees them as an enemy and taking away the, the credit that they were due. And once companies start to realize that we need to be a complete team and this

[00:15:12] Dustin Howes: needs to be a team effort and everybody's working together, that's, that's when this, that's when you're really going to click as a company is when you embrace rather than, then find the affiliate team as an enemy.

[00:15:31] John Wright: I want to totally pivot here and just throw like a curve ball your way, knowing that you're a big baseball fan. Um, so there's obviously a lot of talk that, you know, education in America and in Canada, maybe even different parts of the world is becoming expensive and out of reach. Like there's a lot of complaints that even housing is becoming, uh, unaffordable. And we work in a space where you wouldn't necessarily go to college or university for affiliate marketing degree, because things are just changing so often. Um, so what would you say about like, uh, this opportunity that exists for students that, you know, they're kind of thinking, maybe I should get this

[00:16:11] John Wright: degree in marketing, or maybe I should just go to affiliate marketing. Like, what would you describe the path, um, in doing it, whether it's, uh, figuring it on your own, just creating a website or finding some courses that don't take four years and, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

[00:16:30] Dustin Howes: Yes, absolutely. And, uh, first off, I will never devalue the necessity of going to college in four years, not for necessarily the education portion of it, or getting a certificate that says you're smart, but like the life experience that I gained in college was never going to be replaced. I still have friends from that crew. Uh, and, and like that life experience is something you absolutely need to be a better professional once you do start your real career. So, um, having that degree is a door opener on every resume that you have.

[00:17:09] Dustin Howes: And they don't see a four year degree. You're in a tougher spot unless you have some kind of great background. Now, that being said, uh, getting a regular marketing degree is probably the, one of the only avenues you have at this point. If you're going to be an entrepreneur and being an affiliate, um, you can go that route or you can go the marketing route, but to my knowledge, I don't know anybody that's really teaching affiliate marketing today. Um, but the great news is you can get your general degree and then you go out on the internet and start getting certificates from anywhere and everywhere that you can.

[00:17:45] Dustin Howes: LinkedIn has a ton of courses that you can get certified on a digital marketer.com used to have these courses that I took back in the day and I put certificates on my resumes so that I could show that I was a full stack marketer. Right. And that helps me not only in regular marketing for my own business, but affiliate marketing, when I go to clients and I talk about all these other aspects like SEO and PPC and, and my connections throughout this industry that helps me keep those clients close to me. And they recognize that I know what I'm talking about here and I can make

[00:18:23] Dustin Howes: other suggestions beyond just the affiliate channel, which will help the overall company to, so there are places to get education, but go get your college degree is something I always preach. Yeah. And just speaking to some of these newer online education platforms, I mean, I'm starting to sign up to more of them like Coursera. I did a data visualization course and a company called elevator. And I'm now looking at the rest of this year going, okay, what do I want to learn? And for me personally, it's a bit of Python and AI, and I'm going to be looking to these platforms to say, okay, how can I, how can I chip away and do like, you

[00:19:01] Dustin Howes: know, five to 10 hours a week and compliment. And I agree. I think there's a strong value in being able to put those little trophies on LinkedIn saying you've got them. I think they, I think they, they subconsciously help people trust you a bit more. For sure. And if I was going to go any avenue right now, it would be the AI avenue. Um, now courses in AI are already.

[00:19:28] John Wright: Outdated after a year that they were created, right? Like AI is growing so fast, but the, the, the point is like, if you get into the AI game and you start building stuff with it, you're going to be so valuable to a company in the next couple of years, it's going to be an incredible boost to your resume. When you put things of like automating this with AI, um, it's gonna, it's going to go a long way.

[00:19:57] John Wright: Yeah. That was one of my questions, uh, talking about AI and I kind of look at it as a skill that it should be the number one skill I think people should pay attention to and as time goes on, it's, uh, I start getting almost weirded out. Maybe this is your experience. And having a podcast where you get to ask people questions like AI comes up all the time and I'm taking notes from every person I chat with, so I kind of wanted to hear your, what's your ear to the ground in affiliate marketing and in AI.

[00:20:28] Dustin Howes: Uh, there are a slew of AI tools that are coming out on a, like a daily basis. It seems like that are helping the automates processes for affiliates and affiliate managers. And I just had a guy on the other day, his name was Jonathan green. And he's this AI, uh, powerhouse who goes and builds four businesses. He will go and save them an hour a day just by like consulting with them and, and like taking what their pain points are and what is slowing them down and

[00:21:03] Dustin Howes: making automations, uh, incredible service for companies out there. But the biggest takeaway that I had from that conversation is I asked him, Hey,

[00:21:14] John Wright: affiliate managers, biggest hurdle right now is fighting AI bots that are coming in and applying to their affiliate programs. How do we counteract this? How do I train AI to go and do my, um, my everyday application processing? Because that could take an hour of somebody's day if they'd have a hundred of those and he's like, gave me the steps. Hey, here's what you do. And I need to go and build that video so that I can teach the masses how to do this, because I think that's going to be a really powerful motivator to somebody.

[00:21:53] John Wright: And like today, if you were to go and buy this tool, it doesn't exist. But if I could make build that out and sell it for $5 a month subscription, I've got a new business. Like AI can make a business for you out of absolutely nothing. If you can convey that this is going to save you time, people will come.

[00:22:15] Dustin Howes: So speaking of new businesses, you have Appy Stash and I wanted you to tell us exactly how it works and, uh, what was the idea behind it?

[00:22:24] Dustin Howes: So, uh, it goes back to my business partner, Victor. He is, uh, this guy out of Romania that is, uh, incredible with, with the tool that he created. So, uh, I constantly get LinkedIn messages, but this guy was very consistent. He's like, Hey, I would like to be on your podcast. I've got this tool, like, come check it out. Here's a free account. And I was like, yeah, sure. I'll get to this when I get to it. And like a month went by and this kid just kept on poking me. And I'm like, fine, let's check this out. And I got, it was the best tool on the internet.

[00:23:04] Dustin Howes: Like I, I've been using tool after tool after tool that gets acquired by other companies like impact and, um, agencies like acceleration partners in the past. And, uh, every new tool comes out every couple of years and is pretty good. But I looked at this tool and I'm like, he has done everything right here. Like the results that are showing up in the AI partner finder functionality were incredible and would give anybody value who would, who would turn this thing on. So I had them on the podcast and I was like, Hey, how are you marketing?

[00:23:41] Dustin Howes: This is like, well, not really marketing that like I'll come on and I will, I will be your advisor. I will be your CMO. And he's like, yes, come on in Dustin. So that's how we got started. And now we're taking this tool that is already outstanding and I'm, uh, you did utilizing my internal network for of affiliate managers to get feedback on making this product even better and filling the gaps that it isn't right now. And we're going to make this the best product on the market in 2024.

[00:24:15] Dustin Howes: And really our entire goal is to help affiliate managers workflow.

[00:24:24] John Wright: Throughout the day, because if I'm going to save you an hour with this tool every day, um, that's going to be super valuable as well. Yeah. And smart for him to target you as like, you know, the good networking guy where you've, like you said, done a hundred plus episodes and just networked, um, you know, the hell that affiliate affiliate marketing. So this is a, this is a great synergy.

[00:24:46] Dustin Howes: Yeah. And it started off as an affiliate partnership too, which is the great part about it, like I, I looked at this product and I'm like, Hey, I'll be an affiliate. Uh, let's, let's get you on my podcast. Let's, let's spread the good word about what you guys are doing here. And, uh, you know, that evolved into something else, which is happening. Um, and you never know until you get into a partnership with somebody, how you're going to work with them. So an affiliate marketing and a JV partnership is always a great way to dip your toes into the water to see if you're going to mesh well with that person on the other end. Yeah.

[00:25:24] Dustin Howes: And it's interesting that, you know, this, uh, this partner looked at you as not just an affiliate marketer, but an influencer, and it's kind of interesting talking about influencers and affiliate marketing where, um, you know, being on another podcast, talking to some, uh, B2B guy, Chris Walker, he said, influencers create demand and affiliate marketers capture demand. And I think in your case, you're able to do both.

[00:25:49] John Wright: Yeah. I'm working with, uh, what I like to call a double-edged sword where I'm, I'm doing both ends of this business. And my ultimate dream is to become a creator and live that affiliate dream one day, but as I grow, they still got to pay bills with clients. I, uh, and now I've acquired a SaaS product that is going to, to help my income as well and help me live that dream one day, because honestly, I love nothing more to come on podcasts and, uh, tell people about the cool tools that are out there. Uh, what, what's your end goal here, John? What are you doing with this podcast? Good question.

[00:26:28] John Wright: I mean, the podcast was, um, kind of like a bit of a hope and pray for building our SaaS company. It's like, I believed it was actually going to be very helpful and influential in getting signups and users, but I didn't quite know where it was going with the exception that I did know that I wanted to connect with a lot of people and I wanted to push myself to be a thought leader in affiliate marketing. So it's, it's been 10 times better than what I could have imagined. I think you, you, you know how this is. It's, um, I think the networking is the single most valuable point. Like if I could discard all the other benefits, like actually getting

[00:27:05] John Wright: signups from it and everything at like the SEO value of the traffic value. I would say I would have done this just for the, the networking. It just opened up, uh, bigger doors, um, more people and my knowledge in affiliate marketing has just leveled up because I get a chance to ask like challenging questions. Like I get to take, you know, your perspective and your experience. And I kind of joke where some of these people are interviewing Mike. If I had to pay for their time for one-on-one, some of these people do charge thousands of dollars per hour. So if you just think of everyone as being worth $500 an hour and look at how many hours you've added up.

[00:27:43] John Wright: Like that's beyond valuable. I also look at that as being a superpower where I feel like from by doing this, my, my perception of the future of affiliate marketing has been really shaped by having the luxury of, you know, having chats like this. Yeah, absolutely. And 100% agree in, in every avenue there. And I didn't even realize recognize the power of doing this podcast and asking people until I ran into Amber Spears. I, uh, she was a, an old friend in the industry, but I hadn't talked to her in years and, um, we struck up a conversation.

[00:28:22] John Wright: I gave her a compliment or something. And then, um, I asked her, Hey, you want to be on my podcasts and, and, and talk about what you're doing right now? And she said, yeah, absolutely. And that sparked, uh, a really good conversation between us. And then she asked me to come do some business coaching for her. And then I kicked ass at that. And then, uh, she asked me to do some other things and now we're doing a lot more business together. And she's been one of my biggest clients so far, uh, because of this, because I started branching out and reaching out on this podcast, but she weren't, she

[00:28:57] John Wright: off, she told me a little bit later, like if I would have approached her and said, Hey, uh, I would love to buy an hour of your time, or I, I'd like some advice, she wouldn't have said yes. But since I asked her to be on my podcast and she's going to get additional exposure, she was more than willing to do so. And I find that the guests I asked are willing to come on because of that. Yeah. I mean, it goes without saying, we know that they get a benefit too. And our job is to grow the audience and give them something. I mean, the exposure, there's SEO value in the links. So, uh, I know we're, we're both happy to, to, uh, do our part. Yeah.

[00:29:39] Dustin Howes: Oh, you were going to say something. I was going to say you and I met because I found an article from you. Oh, that was ranking well for my course. You were linking directly to me and I'm like, Hey, John, thanks for that. Really appreciate it. How do I get to the top list list here, sir?

[00:29:56] Dustin Howes: Yeah. And I, I still think I haven't actually got the tracking link for your affiliate program, ironically enough. So gotta, gotta guess that I've done.

[00:30:06] John Wright: I wanted to talk cause we're talking about our podcast, which is a B2B podcast. And I believe that audio video is going to be a powerful channel as AI content just becomes everywhere. And I actually think, um, podcasting is going to be kind of like another thing that people can do in the B2C space to be an actual affiliate marketer. What's your take on that for using podcast and video as a channel for being able to drive sales? Oh man. Podcasting is, is going to be evolving into affiliate marketing more than ever. And this is a very specific category of folks that I'm, I'm connecting with

[00:30:46] John Wright: right now in this podcast area. Cause I have a hundred episodes under my belt. I can talk to podcasters a whole lot better now because I can reach out and I say, Hey, what's your affiliate strategy going on? Like I have none. Like, let me hook you up. This is the tech stack you need. Let's look at your, uh, what you're doing on your past and who could be a possible sponsor in the future or a possible affiliate relationship. Because if you don't have a certain level of traffic or downloads coming through, you can't ask for sponsorships. So what are you doing in the meantime to make some scratch? You'd take products that you believe in that you like talking about, and then

[00:31:24] John Wright: you'd put them in mid-rolls, uh, while you're on these episodes and you can make some money on affiliate marketing. And the way you do it, it could be two ways. I do short links. I say go to dustinhounds.com slash. Affy stash. And people will go through my affiliate link, which redirects to that website. Right. That's an easy way for podcasters to do it or go to, go to dustinhounds.com slash checklist, and that goes straight to my course where you can get the checklist for what affiliate managers need to do with their program, right? Uh, or you can do it.

[00:32:01] John Wright: The other way is vanity code tracking. So you find a product that you believe in and ask their affiliate manager for a vanity code for 10% off the coupon. Doesn't have to be super dramatic by any means, but just give me Dustin 10 for 10% off of that product. And when people go to that website directly, then they use that code and you're going to get credit for that. That's a very good way to do the podcast as well. And those are the two options. I always suggest.

[00:32:33] Dustin Howes: Um, we're almost coming towards the end and I wanted to ask you what you think. Cause I know you've got your ear to the ground on tracking and we've obviously heard that, you know, Google wants to push cookies out the door and I'm not sure if we had this chat before, but you think that these vanity URLs or custom or co-branded URLs are going to become more popular where rather than getting a tracking link and rather than having you actually do the, the Dustin house.com slash app and staff that you'd get like, let's say for example, Dustin 10 dot app is dash. Do you think this is going to become a bit more, a bit more normal in affiliate marketing?

[00:33:11] Dustin Howes: I think so. Everything you can do to cut out the middleman of, of Google, you're going to need to, because Google is going to become one of the biggest affiliates in the world over the next couple of years, and they are already a monster in this space with like airline tickets. They're, they're always up at the top. They own all the space. Like they can do whatever one and put whoever they want up at the top and they're going to put themselves first if they're going to make commission. So getting away from any kind of search engine is, is your best key to success in affiliate marketing coming up.

[00:33:47] Dustin Howes: So getting these vanity codes and putting them all over the internet somewhere is, is going to help you and, and promoting these products via a podcast is a very powerful message when people are talking through the microphone. Instead of typing it out, everybody consumes their content and their perceptions of a product and a different kind of way. So taking that vanity code is, is one route, but also the video aspect of it is going to be super important. And, uh, your social media should be tightened up with your link tree.

[00:34:25] Dustin Howes: Like you only get one link, make sure that link is going to the products that you believe in. And, and I think the future holds those links that you just recently put up. We're going to get to the top of that list on that link tree. So people that came to one certain video were going to get targeted with the right link instead of having to look through your whole link tree, but there's, there's a lot of growth opportunities here. Um, but yeah, I would say staying away from like sending traffic to Google might be your best bet in the future here. And I think one way of thinking about that as having it top of mind is if you're creating something of value, then you can kind of not completely

[00:35:04] Dustin Howes: sidetrack or sidestep, uh, Google, but it goes to the same when you have value.

[00:35:09] Dustin Howes: That amplifies your, your social influence and your ability to drive traffic without needing to rely on Google.

[00:35:18] John Wright: Agreed. I, and I don't have much input besides that, but, uh, what are you doing to diversify?

[00:35:24] Dustin Howes: Oh, that's a tough one.

[00:35:27] John Wright: Uh, I'll give you my marketing strategy. And of course, if any of my, uh, competitors are listening, they're like, Oh, that's a great idea. Let's do that. So for us, I mean, we've always done affiliate program reviews. So we know that this is a channel for affiliates finding these affiliate program reviews and then discovering that we've been exists. I believe our customers that exist, like the whole affiliate marketing world, they are problem aware, but not solution aware in terms of us being a stats provider. So I think that's 1% of the industry. So my job, uh, moving forward is not just to create these reviews, but to go, what can we do from a partnership perspective, not necessarily affiliate

[00:36:04] John Wright: management or affiliate program, but an affiliate partnership that we can say, how do we get connected with these affiliate programs where they find any type of way to recommend what we do to their affiliates? Because if we look at the whole affiliate world audience, they all live inside of a database of affiliate programs. So they're always wanting more affiliates, but at the same time, we know they all live there. Like they all, they live on YouTube, they live in Google, they're on TikTok. They're on these podcasts, but they always have a home in a database of an affiliate program. So it's, it's one thing that if we can do a lot of back and

[00:36:41] Dustin Howes: forth partnerships where we help each other, that's, that's our go-to-market strategy and hopefully, uh, hopefully no one's made it to the, this, uh, 35 minute mark that's that's better. They're listening.

[00:36:52] John Wright: Boom. Hilarious. Uh, I hope they are because that's a good tidbit and, uh, the more exposure you can get onto your affiliate program, the better, like, yes, the quality of the affiliates that come through an article of that may or may not be amazing, but it doesn't hurt. I can guarantee that. And you might find a monster come through one of those channels. You never know. Brand awareness is very difficult to value. Um, at least it's a hidden metric that you really don't know how much of affiliate marketing is really brand marketing at some times.

[00:37:33] Dustin Howes: I agree. I'll, I'll give you a comment, uh, after the show, but the last question is what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence?

[00:37:44] John Wright: Oh, man. Such a tough question. I am not a, a crystal ball kind of guy. Um, but in terms of, I think reporting is going to be more automated and the teaching about reporting is going to be even better. I would love to have somebody teach me the methodology of really getting my nose deep into BI because that is not my strength. My strength is partnership development and making friends and outreach.

[00:38:20] John Wright: But when it comes to reporting, I get anxious about it a lot of the times. And I wish somebody could just automate the reports for me, or at least teach me how to make this automation a thing, um, because that'll save me a lot of anxiety and a lot of time, uh, of trying to pound, you know, beat my head against the wall, trying to do it myself. It's interesting you say that because we're trying to do that as well for all affiliates and we think for affiliate programs, it's also going to become a thing as well, but it's something that, like I said, when I said earlier, I want to learn, uh, you know, more Python and AI. It's kind of part of that collection.

[00:38:57] John Wright: It's also power BI, you know, uh, Microsoft products and also Google Looker Studio. So I have the luxury of having a chance to work with some of our customers that they use that our app to pull the data in, but then it gets exported as an API and they're basically going, we want to put this into Tableau, Looker Studio, Power BI, and there's all these numerous, uh, programs, whatever they're comfortable with. Then, um, I get an opportunity to see what kind of dashboards they like to build or how they even create the workflow or what else is coming inside these things. So, um, I think the next couple of years, it's a, we're not the only ones doing this, but I think this is going to be an interesting part where.

[00:39:37] John Wright: Companies like us. And I know like even our competitors and other ones that are kind of on the perimeter says not competitors, they're going to be helping make affiliate marketing a bit more data driven. Yeah. And if there's anybody out there that is a nerd at this stuff that has some kind of business or AI or product, whatever it may be, I want to interview you on affiliate nerd out because I need help in the situation and, um, anybody that has a solution that could be easy for companies. I want to promote you guys on, um, all my, all my way.

[00:40:13] John Wright: So, uh, I'd be interested in finding somebody that can really do this kind of thing. Uh, I'll, I'll get a couple, uh, invites after the show. Okay. Awesome. Uh, Dustin, thank you so much for doing this. Um, let's give an opportunity for her to help people can find you, including some of your, uh, products and websites.

[00:40:34] Dustin Howes: Yeah, sure. Uh, I'm very easy to get ahold of on LinkedIn, but you can always email me at Dustin house.com is the easiest way to get ahold of me. My products are at face stash.com performance marketing manager.com and Dustin house.com. So, uh, that's it. Thanks, John. Thank you. All right. We'll see you.

[00:40:56] John Wright: Thank you for tuning in to the affiliate BI podcast. I'd like to take this time to ask for small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. That helps us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more listeners.