Capturing demand in affiliate marketing with Chris Walker from Refine Labs

got a little secret for everybody uh got a little secret for everybody uh maybe a hundred years ago people bought

maybe a hundred years ago people bought maybe a hundred years ago people bought through word of mouth and referrals and

through word of mouth and referrals and through word of mouth and referrals and guess what today it still happens just

guess what today it still happens just guess what today it still happens just it still happens and it's the biggest it still happens and it's the biggest it still happens and it's the biggest driver of business growth and it's the driver of business growth and it's the driver of business growth and it's the biggest driver of lowering customer biggest driver of lowering customer biggest driver of lowering customer acquisition costs and it's a signal that

acquisition costs and it's a signal that acquisition costs and it's a signal that you're doing a lot of things right the

you're doing a lot of things right the you're doing a lot of things right the difference is that word of mouth has

difference is that word of mouth has difference is that word of mouth has fundamentally changed over the past 20

fundamentally changed over the past 20 fundamentally changed over the past 20 years especially over the past five with

years especially over the past five with years especially over the past five with the dramatic scale and maturity of the

the dramatic scale and maturity of the the dramatic scale and maturity of the internet so in 1995 you could just tell

internet so in 1995 you could just tell internet so in 1995 you could just tell your kids your your kids friends parents

your kids your your kids friends parents your kids your your kids friends parents about the thing that you like at the about the thing that you like at the about the thing that you like at the t-ball game um and now 25 years later

t-ball game um and now 25 years later t-ball game um and now 25 years later you could post it on LinkedIn and a

you could post it on LinkedIn and a you could post it on LinkedIn and a 100,000 people are going to see it 100,000 people are going to see it 100,000 people are going to see it within the next hour you go viral on Tik

within the next hour you go viral on Tik within the next hour you go viral on Tik Tok and 8 million people see it and Tok and 8 million people see it and Tok and 8 million people see it and drives incredible business growth and drives incredible business growth and drives incredible business growth and that's happened over and over

that's happened over and over that's happened over and over again I'm John Wright and you're

again I'm John Wright and you're again I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

podcast brought to you by podcast brought to you by ststone welcome to the affiliate VI

ststone welcome to the affiliate VI ststone welcome to the affiliate VI podcast I'm chatting with Chris Walker

podcast I'm chatting with Chris Walker podcast I'm chatting with Chris Walker who's the CEO and founder of refine labs

who's the CEO and founder of refine labs who's the CEO and founder of refine labs and he's also the host of the revenue

and he's also the host of the revenue and he's also the host of the revenue vitals podcast which I'm an avid

vitals podcast which I'm an avid vitals podcast which I'm an avid listener of he's got over 100,000

listener of he's got over 100,000 listener of he's got over 100,000 followers on LinkedIn and Chris uh

followers on LinkedIn and Chris uh followers on LinkedIn and Chris uh welcome to the show John thanks for

welcome to the show John thanks for welcome to the show John thanks for having me an interesting topic here so

having me an interesting topic here so having me an interesting topic here so looking forward to uh seeing where this

looking forward to uh seeing where this looking forward to uh seeing where this takes us awesome me too uh first

takes us awesome me too uh first takes us awesome me too uh first question uh for people that are in phet

question uh for people that are in phet question uh for people that are in phet marketing that don't know you too well

marketing that don't know you too well marketing that don't know you too well what do you do at refin labs and tell us

what do you do at refin labs and tell us what do you do at refin labs and tell us about your company

about your company about your company uh hey everyone my name is Chris Walker uh hey everyone my name is Chris Walker uh hey everyone my name is Chris Walker for those of you that don't know me I'm for those of you that don't know me I'm for those of you that don't know me I'm an entrepreneur a business owner a

an entrepreneur a business owner a an entrepreneur a business owner a marketer A salesperson when you own a

marketer A salesperson when you own a marketer A salesperson when you own a business you kind of do all the jobs um

business you kind of do all the jobs um business you kind of do all the jobs um and so I find myself to be just a and so I find myself to be just a and so I find myself to be just a well-rounded entrepreneur and business well-rounded entrepreneur and business well-rounded entrepreneur and business person the way that I've come up to that

person the way that I've come up to that person the way that I've come up to that stage is through product management and

stage is through product management and stage is through product management and marketing and operations um and so

marketing and operations um and so marketing and operations um and so that's sort of where my background leads

that's sort of where my background leads that's sort of where my background leads but uh in general I've built an eight

but uh in general I've built an eight but uh in general I've built an eight figure company we have a large team we

figure company we have a large team we figure company we have a large team we work with more than 250 B2B SAS

work with more than 250 B2B SAS work with more than 250 B2B SAS companies we've been in business for

companies we've been in business for companies we've been in business for about four and a half years um and now

about four and a half years um and now about four and a half years um and now we're moving into the next phase where

we're moving into the next phase where we're moving into the next phase where instead of just like seeing the pattern

instead of just like seeing the pattern instead of just like seeing the pattern at 10 companies in a row and meating

at 10 companies in a row and meating at 10 companies in a row and meating that back which is why my message that back which is why my message that back which is why my message resonates so much with the market is resonates so much with the market is resonates so much with the market is because I'm not making this stuff up I because I'm not making this stuff up I because I'm not making this stuff up I just see it in real life see the just see it in real life see the just see it in real life see the patterns and then recognize that it

patterns and then recognize that it patterns and then recognize that it applies to a lot of people um and now

applies to a lot of people um and now applies to a lot of people um and now taking that to the next level by

taking that to the next level by taking that to the next level by leveraging uh scientific principles and

leveraging uh scientific principles and leveraging uh scientific principles and data to actually demonstrate these

data to actually demonstrate these data to actually demonstrate these things to Executives and investors and

things to Executives and investors and things to Executives and investors and leaders in a datab backed scientific way

leaders in a datab backed scientific way leaders in a datab backed scientific way that hasn't been done before that gives

that hasn't been done before that gives that hasn't been done before that gives people confidence and Clarity in what

people confidence and Clarity in what people confidence and Clarity in what they should be doing in their go to they should be doing in their go to they should be doing in their go to market okay that's going to set up a

market okay that's going to set up a market okay that's going to set up a future question uh but I'm going to jump

future question uh but I'm going to jump future question uh but I'm going to jump into the next one which is in the B2B

into the next one which is in the B2B into the next one which is in the B2B space you're credited with coining the

space you're credited with coining the space you're credited with coining the term self attribution as a smarter means

term self attribution as a smarter means term self attribution as a smarter means of tracking leads and sales do you think

of tracking leads and sales do you think of tracking leads and sales do you think this concept could be applied to the b2c

this concept could be applied to the b2c this concept could be applied to the b2c affiliate marketing space where the

affiliate marketing space where the affiliate marketing space where the majority of the industry heavily relies

majority of the industry heavily relies majority of the industry heavily relies on the cookies and last click

on the cookies and last click on the cookies and last click attribution

models um so just to be clear I didn't models um so just to be clear I didn't like invent this concept uh companies

like invent this concept uh companies like invent this concept uh companies both B2B and b2c have been doing this

both B2B and b2c have been doing this both B2B and b2c have been doing this for decades um asking how did you hear

for decades um asking how did you hear for decades um asking how did you hear about us collecting information uh

about us collecting information uh about us collecting information uh directly from their Target customers to

directly from their Target customers to directly from their Target customers to determine or at least have another input

determine or at least have another input determine or at least have another input of data to determine uh what's working

of data to determine uh what's working of data to determine uh what's working and what's not and how to allocate

and what's not and how to allocate and what's not and how to allocate Investments um I don't believe that this

Investments um I don't believe that this Investments um I don't believe that this is necessarily a better way than using

is necessarily a better way than using is necessarily a better way than using digital touchpoint attribution I just

digital touchpoint attribution I just digital touchpoint attribution I just think that it's a different way that think that it's a different way that think that it's a different way that gives you an entirely different view um

gives you an entirely different view um gives you an entirely different view um and when we think about driving our

and when we think about driving our and when we think about driving our Market strategy I think we need two Market strategy I think we need two Market strategy I think we need two things we need inputs based on

things we need inputs based on things we need inputs based on standardized data that everyone in the

standardized data that everyone in the standardized data that everyone in the executive team can look at and everyone

executive team can look at and everyone executive team can look at and everyone on the downstream team can look at and

on the downstream team can look at and on the downstream team can look at and say we all agree on these numbers just

say we all agree on these numbers just say we all agree on these numbers just like we all agree on our p&l um and then

like we all agree on our p&l um and then like we all agree on our p&l um and then we need customer data we need direct

we need customer data we need direct we need customer data we need direct information from customers through information from customers through information from customers through primary market research through

primary market research through primary market research through self-reported attribution through win

self-reported attribution through win self-reported attribution through win loss analysis through asking uh on the

loss analysis through asking uh on the loss analysis through asking uh on the first call in sales meetings and other

first call in sales meetings and other first call in sales meetings and other fors of primary market research where

fors of primary market research where fors of primary market research where your customers feed you data about

your customers feed you data about your customers feed you data about what's working and what's not and I'm what's working and what's not and I'm what's working and what's not and I'm just calling out out to all the B2B just calling out out to all the B2B just calling out out to all the B2B companies that this idea of primary

companies that this idea of primary companies that this idea of primary customer data and using it to drive your

customer data and using it to drive your customer data and using it to drive your go to market is basically not happening

go to market is basically not happening go to market is basically not happening right now companies use customer

right now companies use customer right now companies use customer insights to build their product to

insights to build their product to insights to build their product to determine the product road map but they

determine the product road map but they determine the product road map but they don't do it to dictate how they make go

don't do it to dictate how they make go don't do it to dictate how they make go to market decisions which I think is a to market decisions which I think is a to market decisions which I think is a huge Miss um and another reason why a

huge Miss um and another reason why a huge Miss um and another reason why a lot of B2B companies all do the same

lot of B2B companies all do the same lot of B2B companies all do the same dumb [ __ ] because it all revolves around

dumb [ __ ] because it all revolves around dumb [ __ ] because it all revolves around the one sort of myopic measurement model

the one sort of myopic measurement model the one sort of myopic measurement model that they use using digital touch Point

that they use using digital touch Point that they use using digital touch Point attribution whether they use multi-touch attribution whether they use multi-touch attribution whether they use multi-touch or a u shape or a w shape or first touch

or a u shape or a w shape or first touch or a u shape or a w shape or first touch it doesn't really matter it's just it doesn't really matter it's just it doesn't really matter it's just missing a lot of key elements that don't

missing a lot of key elements that don't missing a lot of key elements that don't come directly from your come directly from your come directly from your customers um and so could you use this

customers um and so could you use this customers um and so could you use this in the affiliate space like I think yeah

in the affiliate space like I think yeah in the affiliate space like I think yeah you could I think traditionally people

you could I think traditionally people you could I think traditionally people use either coupon codes La last click

use either coupon codes La last click use either coupon codes La last click attribution things like that um I think

attribution things like that um I think attribution things like that um I think that you could do it but I also believe

that you could do it but I also believe that you could do it but I also believe that um self-reported attribution or how

that um self-reported attribution or how that um self-reported attribution or how you hear about us is typically going to

you hear about us is typically going to you hear about us is typically going to tell you what created the demand not

tell you what created the demand not tell you what created the demand not what captured the demand and so what captured the demand and so what captured the demand and so Affiliates I find to be you know they

Affiliates I find to be you know they Affiliates I find to be you know they can create demand but a lot of

can create demand but a lot of can create demand but a lot of Affiliates are are more in the demand

Affiliates are are more in the demand Affiliates are are more in the demand capture game um and so uh depending on

capture game um and so uh depending on capture game um and so uh depending on sort of where you play in that space sort of where you play in that space sort of where you play in that space like influence I think if you did

like influence I think if you did like influence I think if you did influencers on Tik Tok and Instagram you

influencers on Tik Tok and Instagram you influencers on Tik Tok and Instagram you would get that stuff in self-reported

would get that stuff in self-reported would get that stuff in self-reported attribution for B Toc I'm not sure you

attribution for B Toc I'm not sure you attribution for B Toc I'm not sure you would get it from an affiliate blog would get it from an affiliate blog would get it from an affiliate blog that's linking out to get an affiliate

that's linking out to get an affiliate that's linking out to get an affiliate commission so it really depends on your commission so it really depends on your commission so it really depends on your use case I I think you articulated

use case I I think you articulated use case I I think you articulated perfectly it's actually Affiliates are

perfectly it's actually Affiliates are perfectly it's actually Affiliates are part of the demand capture um and maybe

part of the demand capture um and maybe part of the demand capture um and maybe that's why might be helpful for

that's why might be helpful for that's why might be helpful for companies to actually put that field in companies to actually put that field in companies to actually put that field in their place where it's like we know the their place where it's like we know the their place where it's like we know the coupon code is going to say you came coupon code is going to say you came coupon code is going to say you came from the affiliate but what was the

from the affiliate but what was the from the affiliate but what was the leading driver was it your friend saying

leading driver was it your friend saying leading driver was it your friend saying hey I heard about this coupon code and I

hey I heard about this coupon code and I hey I heard about this coupon code and I actually believe this is um completely

actually believe this is um completely actually believe this is um completely missing in affiliate marketing I know

missing in affiliate marketing I know missing in affiliate marketing I know for a lot of the tracking tools that

for a lot of the tracking tools that for a lot of the tracking tools that exist I can't think of a single one that

exist I can't think of a single one that exist I can't think of a single one that that really has these things built into

that really has these things built into that really has these things built into it unless it's the the operator side

it unless it's the the operator side it unless it's the the operator side actually putting that in

actually putting that in actually putting that in there yeah I mean uh affiliate by

there yeah I mean uh affiliate by there yeah I mean uh affiliate by definition is highly transaction

definition is highly transaction definition is highly transaction um and so in a transactional model you

um and so in a transactional model you um and so in a transactional model you typically use a transactional typically use a transactional typically use a transactional measurement model which is like hey I measurement model which is like hey I measurement model which is like hey I referred you this customer you use my

referred you this customer you use my referred you this customer you use my coupon code or different things like

coupon code or different things like coupon code or different things like that and if uh like a mtech let's just

that and if uh like a mtech let's just that and if uh like a mtech let's just say like six cents hired me to do that

say like six cents hired me to do that say like six cents hired me to do that [ __ ] for them um I would I wouldn't uh

[ __ ] for them um I would I wouldn't uh [ __ ] for them um I would I wouldn't uh none of my stuff would ever show up none

none of my stuff would ever show up none none of my stuff would ever show up none of my stuff ever shows up on last click

of my stuff ever shows up on last click of my stuff ever shows up on last click attribution or through a coupon code or

attribution or through a coupon code or attribution or through a coupon code or something like that because I don't something like that because I don't something like that because I don't operate operate operate transactionally um and so all of stuff

transactionally um and so all of stuff transactionally um and so all of stuff would be more equivalent to an would be more equivalent to an would be more equivalent to an influencer or a key opinion leader that influencer or a key opinion leader that influencer or a key opinion leader that you're going to need a different you're going to need a different you're going to need a different measurement model to use um which is why

measurement model to use um which is why measurement model to use um which is why companies struggle with a partner companies struggle with a partner companies struggle with a partner Channel Affiliates could be considered

Channel Affiliates could be considered Channel Affiliates could be considered one stream of a partner or a near bound

one stream of a partner or a near bound one stream of a partner or a near bound motion um and B2B companies struggle

motion um and B2B companies struggle motion um and B2B companies struggle with it a lot because the measurement with it a lot because the measurement with it a lot because the measurement model was only Built across like

model was only Built across like model was only Built across like transactional demand

transactional demand transactional demand capture that makes sense uh do you think

capture that makes sense uh do you think capture that makes sense uh do you think there's maybe a way um like my thought

there's maybe a way um like my thought there's maybe a way um like my thought process on this is that there's a lot of process on this is that there's a lot of process on this is that there's a lot of companies that when they're dealing with companies that when they're dealing with companies that when they're dealing with millions and millions of customers or

millions and millions of customers or millions and millions of customers or signups that having that single field is

signups that having that single field is signups that having that single field is kind of cumbersome like you're asking

kind of cumbersome like you're asking kind of cumbersome like you're asking for data that's not going to be

for data that's not going to be for data that's not going to be consistent but I remember listening to

consistent but I remember listening to consistent but I remember listening to um some other podcasts where uh the

um some other podcasts where uh the um some other podcasts where uh the company lavender where they're talking company lavender where they're talking company lavender where they're talking about what were some of the common about what were some of the common about what were some of the common attribution answers and a lot of them

attribution answers and a lot of them attribution answers and a lot of them had the word will in it uh for will aen

had the word will in it uh for will aen had the word will in it uh for will aen so I'm just wondering if you think maybe

so I'm just wondering if you think maybe so I'm just wondering if you think maybe we're already at the place where AI

we're already at the place where AI we're already at the place where AI tools could possibly sipped out like

tools could possibly sipped out like tools could possibly sipped out like millions and millions of rows of data

millions and millions of rows of data millions and millions of rows of data and maybe actually come up with better

and maybe actually come up with better and maybe actually come up with better insights than what we can do like we

insights than what we can do like we insights than what we can do like we don't want to do that

don't want to do that don't want to do that manually of course yeah like as a rep

manually of course yeah like as a rep manually of course yeah like as a rep one before AI was on the scene in 2021

one before AI was on the scene in 2021 one before AI was on the scene in 2021 middle of 2021 we started doing it we

middle of 2021 we started doing it we middle of 2021 we started doing it we used automation that looked at and if it

used automation that looked at and if it used automation that looked at and if it Rec if it said Chris for Chris Walker in

Rec if it said Chris for Chris Walker in Rec if it said Chris for Chris Walker in it it would automatically categorize it

it it would automatically categorize it it it would automatically categorize it in that area and so we had like manual

in that area and so we had like manual in that area and so we had like manual automation or automation doing this in

automation or automation doing this in automation or automation doing this in 2021 and all the way through till now

2021 and all the way through till now 2021 and all the way through till now now with the rise of AI the ability to

now with the rise of AI the ability to now with the rise of AI the ability to analyze all that data and conduct analyze all that data and conduct analyze all that data and conduct sentiment analysis and things like that

sentiment analysis and things like that sentiment analysis and things like that and not maybe presented in a way that

and not maybe presented in a way that and not maybe presented in a way that Executives feel is equivalent or at

Executives feel is equivalent or at Executives feel is equivalent or at least believable um as the same way they

least believable um as the same way they least believable um as the same way they look at their visible report which is in

look at their visible report which is in look at their visible report which is in other ways flawed um and so yeah I do

other ways flawed um and so yeah I do other ways flawed um and so yeah I do think that uh AI will easily be able to

think that uh AI will easily be able to think that uh AI will easily be able to do do do this one of your podcasts I remember

this one of your podcasts I remember this one of your podcasts I remember listening to a story how you said uh

listening to a story how you said uh listening to a story how you said uh like hundreds of years ago people bought

like hundreds of years ago people bought like hundreds of years ago people bought from each other through referrals Word

from each other through referrals Word from each other through referrals Word of Mouth um and I'm just wondering if

of Mouth um and I'm just wondering if of Mouth um and I'm just wondering if maybe you think people today are maybe you think people today are maybe you think people today are distracted on the tech side I know in

distracted on the tech side I know in distracted on the tech side I know in B2B uh everyone's kind of jumped towards

B2B uh everyone's kind of jumped towards B2B uh everyone's kind of jumped towards the tools where they've ignored that

the tools where they've ignored that the tools where they've ignored that Personal Touch of like where did you Personal Touch of like where did you Personal Touch of like where did you really hear about us I'm just wondering

really hear about us I'm just wondering really hear about us I'm just wondering if you think um maybe affiliate sites

if you think um maybe affiliate sites if you think um maybe affiliate sites kind of have a bit of that problem where

kind of have a bit of that problem where kind of have a bit of that problem where some of their sites are maybe too

some of their sites are maybe too some of their sites are maybe too corporate or too soulless and they're corporate or too soulless and they're corporate or too soulless and they're not really putting a person or um

not really putting a person or um not really putting a person or um something meaningful behind

something meaningful behind something meaningful behind it got a little secret for everybody uh

it got a little secret for everybody uh it got a little secret for everybody uh maybe a hundred years ago people bought

maybe a hundred years ago people bought maybe a hundred years ago people bought through word of mouth and referrals and

through word of mouth and referrals and through word of mouth and referrals and guess what today it still happens

guess what today it still happens guess what today it still happens just it still happens and it's the

just it still happens and it's the just it still happens and it's the biggest driver of business growth and

biggest driver of business growth and biggest driver of business growth and it's the biggest driver of lowering it's the biggest driver of lowering it's the biggest driver of lowering customer acquisition cost and it's a

customer acquisition cost and it's a customer acquisition cost and it's a signal that you're doing a lot of things

signal that you're doing a lot of things signal that you're doing a lot of things right the difference is that word of

right the difference is that word of right the difference is that word of mouth has fundamentally changed over the

mouth has fundamentally changed over the mouth has fundamentally changed over the past 20 years especially over the past

past 20 years especially over the past past 20 years especially over the past five with the dramatic scale and

five with the dramatic scale and five with the dramatic scale and maturity of the internet so in 1995 you

maturity of the internet so in 1995 you maturity of the internet so in 1995 you could just tell your kids P your your

could just tell your kids P your your could just tell your kids P your your kids friends parents about the thing

kids friends parents about the thing kids friends parents about the thing that you like at the t-ball game um and

that you like at the t-ball game um and that you like at the t-ball game um and now 25 years later you could post it on

now 25 years later you could post it on now 25 years later you could post it on LinkedIn and 100,000 people are going to

LinkedIn and 100,000 people are going to LinkedIn and 100,000 people are going to see it within the next hour you go viral

see it within the next hour you go viral see it within the next hour you go viral on Tik Tok and 8 million people see it

on Tik Tok and 8 million people see it on Tik Tok and 8 million people see it and it drives incredible business growth

and it drives incredible business growth and it drives incredible business growth and that's happened over and over again

and that's happened over and over again and that's happened over and over again or you post a podcast and people listen

or you post a podcast and people listen or you post a podcast and people listen to that podcast for two years and over

to that podcast for two years and over to that podcast for two years and over time start to really believe and trust

time start to really believe and trust time start to really believe and trust you um and so the idea of Word of Mouth

you um and so the idea of Word of Mouth you um and so the idea of Word of Mouth has fundamentally changed over the past

has fundamentally changed over the past has fundamentally changed over the past 20 years which is the core difference um

20 years which is the core difference um 20 years which is the core difference um I really think that we need to make a I really think that we need to make a I really think that we need to make a split here when we talk about this

split here when we talk about this split here when we talk about this between influencers or key opinion

between influencers or key opinion between influencers or key opinion leaders leaders and Affiliates they're leaders leaders and Affiliates they're leaders leaders and Affiliates they're really two very different things with

really two very different things with really two very different things with different motions that require different

different motions that require different different motions that require different ways of measuring success um Affiliates

ways of measuring success um Affiliates ways of measuring success um Affiliates play at the bottom of the funnel and try

play at the bottom of the funnel and try play at the bottom of the funnel and try and make a small transaction fee for a

and make a small transaction fee for a and make a small transaction fee for a referral um influencers start at the top

referral um influencers start at the top referral um influencers start at the top and create the demand that drives

and create the demand that drives and create the demand that drives accelerated business growth and accelerated business growth and accelerated business growth and accelerated Word of Mouth Affiliates are

accelerated Word of Mouth Affiliates are accelerated Word of Mouth Affiliates are not driving Word of Mouth they're not uh

not driving Word of Mouth they're not uh not driving Word of Mouth they're not uh you might get you might get a byproduct

you might get you might get a byproduct you might get you might get a byproduct of word of mouth when they go through of word of mouth when they go through of word of mouth when they go through and affiliate buy the product have and affiliate buy the product have and affiliate buy the product have success when they talk about it but

success when they talk about it but success when they talk about it but you'll rarely get the scale of Word of

you'll rarely get the scale of Word of you'll rarely get the scale of Word of Mouth that an influencer or key opinion

Mouth that an influencer or key opinion Mouth that an influencer or key opinion Le a key opinion leader creates um that

Le a key opinion leader creates um that Le a key opinion leader creates um that ultimately creates demand and drives ultimately creates demand and drives ultimately creates demand and drives business growth so I think for uh for

business growth so I think for uh for business growth so I think for uh for the affiliate game I think that you have

the affiliate game I think that you have the affiliate game I think that you have to be thinking about do I need do I need

to be thinking about do I need do I need to be thinking about do I need do I need business expansion do I need to expand

business expansion do I need to expand business expansion do I need to expand my capabilities and services in order to

my capabilities and services in order to my capabilities and services in order to not just play at the bottom of the not just play at the bottom of the not just play at the bottom of the funnel when someone searches this funnel when someone searches this funnel when someone searches this category and I'm going to continue to

category and I'm going to continue to category and I'm going to continue to try and win on Google being a top three

try and win on Google being a top three try and win on Google being a top three results so they can click my link and I results so they can click my link and I results so they can click my link and I can get 10% of the sale and instead of

can get 10% of the sale and instead of can get 10% of the sale and instead of playing that game which overtime SEO is

playing that game which overtime SEO is playing that game which overtime SEO is going to change and it's going to leave going to change and it's going to leave going to change and it's going to leave your business your business your business vulnerable um and so knowing that do I

vulnerable um and so knowing that do I vulnerable um and so knowing that do I need to shift to a add a different

need to shift to a add a different need to shift to a add a different service or add a different layer to my

service or add a different layer to my service or add a different layer to my service that includes demand creation

service that includes demand creation service that includes demand creation and influencing people before they're

and influencing people before they're and influencing people before they're considering buying before they're going

considering buying before they're going considering buying before they're going to Google um that would be if I was in

to Google um that would be if I was in to Google um that would be if I was in the affiliate space that would be my

the affiliate space that would be my the affiliate space that would be my game right game right game right now awesome uh next question is kind of

now awesome uh next question is kind of now awesome uh next question is kind of going in a different direction and I've

going in a different direction and I've going in a different direction and I've got an engineering background so I like got an engineering background so I like got an engineering background so I like to ask this one where you've gone to to ask this one where you've gone to to ask this one where you've gone to school for engineering and you've

school for engineering and you've school for engineering and you've pivoted in your career a few times where

pivoted in your career a few times where pivoted in your career a few times where I think you've realized what you were I think you've realized what you were I think you've realized what you were good at and what you like to do and you

good at and what you like to do and you good at and what you like to do and you moved away from engineering and I'm kind

moved away from engineering and I'm kind moved away from engineering and I'm kind of wanting to ask what advice would you

of wanting to ask what advice would you of wanting to ask what advice would you have for people that kind of struggle to

have for people that kind of struggle to have for people that kind of struggle to find their purpose or find their mission

find their purpose or find their mission find their purpose or find their mission statement or find something else of you

statement or find something else of you statement or find something else of you know what they think they want to

know what they think they want to know what they think they want to do um yeah so first off I believe that I

do um yeah so first off I believe that I do um yeah so first off I believe that I continue to use my engineering skills

continue to use my engineering skills continue to use my engineering skills and degree every day right now I'm

and degree every day right now I'm and degree every day right now I'm looking at statistics I'm re-engineering

looking at statistics I'm re-engineering looking at statistics I'm re-engineering how companies think about their data how companies think about their data how companies think about their data model inside of their CRM how we use

model inside of their CRM how we use model inside of their CRM how we use that to create large scale statistics

that to create large scale statistics that to create large scale statistics that create data back insights that help

that create data back insights that help that create data back insights that help us make better decisions and so I still

us make better decisions and so I still us make better decisions and so I still think that all those things that I think that all those things that I think that all those things that I learned are directly applicable to the

learned are directly applicable to the learned are directly applicable to the things that I'm doing I'm just applying

things that I'm doing I'm just applying things that I'm doing I'm just applying them in in a new or untraditional way to

them in in a new or untraditional way to them in in a new or untraditional way to the B2B go to market

the B2B go to market the B2B go to market space um and uh what was and then it was

space um and uh what was and then it was space um and uh what was and then it was what was the second part of the question

what was the second part of the question what was the second part of the question it's just like how people kind of

it's just like how people kind of it's just like how people kind of navigate like uh like in my experience I

navigate like uh like in my experience I navigate like uh like in my experience I mean I've been an engineer but I've done

mean I've been an engineer but I've done mean I've been an engineer but I've done non-engineering stuff for about 20 years

non-engineering stuff for about 20 years non-engineering stuff for about 20 years and I'm now going back into it with my

and I'm now going back into it with my and I'm now going back into it with my own company and you know when I listen

own company and you know when I listen own company and you know when I listen to your story I Mike I wish I kind of

to your story I Mike I wish I kind of to your story I Mike I wish I kind of figured that out sooner than later and I figured that out sooner than later and I figured that out sooner than later and I think there's a lot of people that just think there's a lot of people that just think there's a lot of people that just go through life struggling to to find

go through life struggling to to find go through life struggling to to find what they really want to do and they what they really want to do and they what they really want to do and they just stay unhappy but they can't really

just stay unhappy but they can't really just stay unhappy but they can't really get out of their own head and focus on

get out of their own head and focus on get out of their own head and focus on uh just kind of look at the big picture uh just kind of look at the big picture uh just kind of look at the big picture and go what what else should I be

and go what what else should I be and go what what else should I be doing yeah I think this is uh this is a

doing yeah I think this is uh this is a doing yeah I think this is uh this is a multifaceted question

multifaceted question multifaceted question um a couple things that I'll say here I

um a couple things that I'll say here I um a couple things that I'll say here I think that uh your like mindset and your

think that uh your like mindset and your think that uh your like mindset and your perspective across the world drives or

perspective across the world drives or perspective across the world drives or influences the amount of opportunity

influences the amount of opportunity influences the amount of opportunity that you see around yourself um and so

that you see around yourself um and so that you see around yourself um and so when I started to like break out and

when I started to like break out and when I started to like break out and really get into like my own my own space

really get into like my own my own space really get into like my own my own space where I felt very comfortable and where

where I felt very comfortable and where where I felt very comfortable and where I think my talents aligned with a really

I think my talents aligned with a really I think my talents aligned with a really important business problem was when I uh

important business problem was when I uh important business problem was when I uh when I stopped taking or stopped

when I stopped taking or stopped when I stopped taking or stopped thinking about my life traditionally

thinking about my life traditionally thinking about my life traditionally like I need to go through this my career

like I need to go through this my career like I need to go through this my career ladder must be like linear where I go

ladder must be like linear where I go ladder must be like linear where I go from manager to senior manager to

from manager to senior manager to from manager to senior manager to director to senior director to VP to

director to senior director to VP to director to senior director to VP to senior VP and then 20 years later I'm a

senior VP and then 20 years later I'm a senior VP and then 20 years later I'm a CMO um and that's just like not the path

CMO um and that's just like not the path CMO um and that's just like not the path that I would take and if people look at that I would take and if people look at that I would take and if people look at my career path they would literally be my career path they would literally be my career path they would literally be like I like what is this guy doing this

like I like what is this guy doing this like I like what is this guy doing this this career path doesn't make sense this career path doesn't make sense this career path doesn't make sense first he's in manufacturing then he's first he's in manufacturing then he's first he's in manufacturing then he's over here doing product management now over here doing product management now over here doing product management now he's doing demand gen now he runs a he's doing demand gen now he runs a he's doing demand gen now he runs a company what does this guy think he's company what does this guy think he's company what does this guy think he's doing um and in reality those multitude

doing um and in reality those multitude doing um and in reality those multitude of exper experiences in different

of exper experiences in different of exper experiences in different Industries doing different jobs sets you

Industries doing different jobs sets you Industries doing different jobs sets you up to be a much better business leader a

up to be a much better business leader a up to be a much better business leader a much better executive a much better

much better executive a much better much better executive a much better leader than someone that goes through

leader than someone that goes through leader than someone that goes through that traditional career path it could

that traditional career path it could that traditional career path it could specialize and tries to grow my my own

specialize and tries to grow my my own specialize and tries to grow my my own perspective I also think that you get perspective I also think that you get perspective I also think that you get there a lot faster um and so I think one

there a lot faster um and so I think one there a lot faster um and so I think one is about uh not following what the

is about uh not following what the is about uh not following what the societal Norms tell you to do and start

societal Norms tell you to do and start societal Norms tell you to do and start leaning in a lot to the things that you

leaning in a lot to the things that you leaning in a lot to the things that you think are right or the things that you

think are right or the things that you think are right or the things that you um believe in um so that's one I think

um believe in um so that's one I think um believe in um so that's one I think another another thing is that uh like I

another another thing is that uh like I another another thing is that uh like I I knew what I wanted to do from the

I knew what I wanted to do from the I knew what I wanted to do from the beginning when I was 22 I was like I

beginning when I was 22 I was like I beginning when I was 22 I was like I want to own my own company by 35 I ended

want to own my own company by 35 I ended want to own my own company by 35 I ended up doing it at 28 so I did it much

up doing it at 28 so I did it much up doing it at 28 so I did it much faster than I originally expected which faster than I originally expected which faster than I originally expected which was probably another learning but I knew

was probably another learning but I knew was probably another learning but I knew what I wanted to do um and so my when I

what I wanted to do um and so my when I what I wanted to do um and so my when I was intentional when I worked at the

was intentional when I worked at the was intentional when I worked at the companies about the things that I was companies about the things that I was companies about the things that I was doing and what I wanted to learn and how

doing and what I wanted to learn and how doing and what I wanted to learn and how I could get those different skills and I could get those different skills and I could get those different skills and how I could find my way into executive

how I could find my way into executive how I could find my way into executive meetings when I was 23 years old and

meetings when I was 23 years old and meetings when I was 23 years old and start to observe how people are making start to observe how people are making start to observe how people are making decisions and understand Finance I built

decisions and understand Finance I built decisions and understand Finance I built a couple of e-commerce companies on the

a couple of e-commerce companies on the a couple of e-commerce companies on the side between 2012 and

side between 2012 and side between 2012 and 2018 um that created a lot more

2018 um that created a lot more 2018 um that created a lot more experience in being an actual experience in being an actual experience in being an actual entrepreneur where you make like

entrepreneur where you make like entrepreneur where you make like fundamental mistakes in the business and

fundamental mistakes in the business and fundamental mistakes in the business and then you learn from them that you when

then you learn from them that you when then you learn from them that you when you start your real business like I did

you start your real business like I did you start your real business like I did at refin Labs you don't make fundamental

at refin Labs you don't make fundamental at refin Labs you don't make fundamental simple mistakes like cash flow simple mistakes like cash flow simple mistakes like cash flow management and other things um and I

management and other things um and I management and other things um and I think it's about having that like having

think it's about having that like having think it's about having that like having that drive and having that Vision what

that drive and having that Vision what that drive and having that Vision what do you want what do you want the your

do you want what do you want the your do you want what do you want the your life to look like and then knowing that

life to look like and then knowing that life to look like and then knowing that and being intentional about the

and being intentional about the and being intentional about the professional situations that you put professional situations that you put professional situations that you put yourself in what you do on the side as a

yourself in what you do on the side as a yourself in what you do on the side as a quote unquote side hustle you can start

quote unquote side hustle you can start quote unquote side hustle you can start your own business you can watch Netflix your own business you can watch Netflix your own business you can watch Netflix for six hours every night you decide um

for six hours every night you decide um for six hours every night you decide um and neither one is right or wrong for and neither one is right or wrong for and neither one is right or wrong for that matter it's just about doing what that matter it's just about doing what that matter it's just about doing what you think is right for you um so those

you think is right for you um so those you think is right for you um so those are some of the the things that I would

are some of the the things that I would are some of the the things that I would say that's awesome uh in my experience I

say that's awesome uh in my experience I say that's awesome uh in my experience I mean I graduated from engineering and

mean I graduated from engineering and mean I graduated from engineering and then I got into professional gambling so

then I got into professional gambling so then I got into professional gambling so you want to talk about going off on a

you want to talk about going off on a you want to talk about going off on a tangent and everything you said is uh

tangent and everything you said is uh tangent and everything you said is uh pretty interesting and uh I can reflect

pretty interesting and uh I can reflect pretty interesting and uh I can reflect on that of taking you know a good 20

on that of taking you know a good 20 on that of taking you know a good 20 years of doing different jobs and going

years of doing different jobs and going years of doing different jobs and going I know the skill is helpful doing SEO

I know the skill is helpful doing SEO I know the skill is helpful doing SEO doing design doing conversion rate

doing design doing conversion rate doing design doing conversion rate optimization but it was uh luckily for

optimization but it was uh luckily for optimization but it was uh luckily for me I kind of found a a passion project

me I kind of found a a passion project me I kind of found a a passion project that took that experience and said I

that took that experience and said I that took that experience and said I don't want to do these things full-time don't want to do these things full-time don't want to do these things full-time but uh I do think they're valuable and

but uh I do think they're valuable and but uh I do think they're valuable and things that I can build upon along the

things that I can build upon along the things that I can build upon along the way yeah and and having the um the

way yeah and and having the um the way yeah and and having the um the confidence I think is what it is having confidence I think is what it is having confidence I think is what it is having the confidence to go and do different

the confidence to go and do different the confidence to go and do different things that you've never done before

things that you've never done before things that you've never done before like figuring out how to do lean Six like figuring out how to do lean Six like figuring out how to do lean Six Sigma when I was 23 years old or how

Sigma when I was 23 years old or how Sigma when I was 23 years old or how figuring out how to launch a product

figuring out how to launch a product figuring out how to launch a product when I was 25 when I'd never done it

when I was 25 when I'd never done it when I was 25 when I'd never done it before and being able to do that get the

before and being able to do that get the before and being able to do that get the learnings know that you can do it and learnings know that you can do it and learnings know that you can do it and figure it out um I think that having

figure it out um I think that having figure it out um I think that having that uh resiliency and openness to new

that uh resiliency and openness to new that uh resiliency and openness to new things is really important I think a lot things is really important I think a lot things is really important I think a lot of people think that when uh they go and

of people think that when uh they go and of people think that when uh they go and do something new that immediately

do something new that immediately do something new that immediately they're going to be good at it or that

they're going to be good at it or that they're going to be good at it or that or that if they're not good at it that

or that if they're not good at it that or that if they're not good at it that it's not meant for them everybody sucks

it's not meant for them everybody sucks it's not meant for them everybody sucks at everything the first time they do it

at everything the first time they do it at everything the first time they do it sure people have natural talent and size

sure people have natural talent and size sure people have natural talent and size and skills and things like that but

and skills and things like that but and skills and things like that but everybody sucks the first time they do a

everybody sucks the first time they do a everybody sucks the first time they do a lot of things um and so being able to

lot of things um and so being able to lot of things um and so being able to have that mindset that I can go out and

have that mindset that I can go out and have that mindset that I can go out and do this I'm going to suck at the do this I'm going to suck at the do this I'm going to suck at the beginning but if I stay at it I'm going

beginning but if I stay at it I'm going beginning but if I stay at it I'm going to be able to figure it out um I think

to be able to figure it out um I think to be able to figure it out um I think that that having that mindset is that that having that mindset is that that having that mindset is critically important I use that in all

critically important I use that in all critically important I use that in all different areas of my life currently as

different areas of my life currently as different areas of my life currently as I try new things recognizing that I

I try new things recognizing that I I try new things recognizing that I don't have it figured out yet things

don't have it figured out yet things don't have it figured out yet things aren't going to go my way sometimes I'm

aren't going to go my way sometimes I'm aren't going to go my way sometimes I'm going to quote unquote fail AKA do

going to quote unquote fail AKA do going to quote unquote fail AKA do something and get a result and learn um

something and get a result and learn um something and get a result and learn um so again it all comes back to mindset

so again it all comes back to mindset so again it all comes back to mindset and and and perspective I've heard you push back on

perspective I've heard you push back on perspective I've heard you push back on people questioning if sh if you should

people questioning if sh if you should people questioning if sh if you should have like an owned audience say over a

have like an owned audience say over a have like an owned audience say over a LinkedIn audience where I've heard you

LinkedIn audience where I've heard you LinkedIn audience where I've heard you say something along the lines like you say something along the lines like you say something along the lines like you wouldn't be as well known on LinkedIn if

wouldn't be as well known on LinkedIn if wouldn't be as well known on LinkedIn if you hadn't have uh made that risk so I

you hadn't have uh made that risk so I you hadn't have uh made that risk so I kind of want to get your take on own

kind of want to get your take on own kind of want to get your take on own audiences for both B2B and what what do

audiences for both B2B and what what do audiences for both B2B and what what do you think about B Toc yeah just to be

you think about B Toc yeah just to be you think about B Toc yeah just to be clear the people saying like don't rent

clear the people saying like don't rent clear the people saying like don't rent your audience from LinkedIn build an

your audience from LinkedIn build an your audience from LinkedIn build an owned audience are the same people that

owned audience are the same people that owned audience are the same people that own the platforms that you build your

own the platforms that you build your own the platforms that you build your own audience on and therefore their

own audience on and therefore their own audience on and therefore their position is clearly biased the real

position is clearly biased the real position is clearly biased the real answer is both the real answer is both

answer is both the real answer is both answer is both the real answer is both um I have 130,000 followers on LinkedIn

um I have 130,000 followers on LinkedIn um I have 130,000 followers on LinkedIn probably more than that now I have

probably more than that now I have probably more than that now I have uh two million downloads on our podcast

uh two million downloads on our podcast uh two million downloads on our podcast over the past four years um and the

over the past four years um and the over the past four years um and the reality is that the people listening to

reality is that the people listening to reality is that the people listening to this podcast that know me would never

this podcast that know me would never this podcast that know me would never know me if I just built a [ __ ] email

know me if I just built a [ __ ] email know me if I just built a [ __ ] email list and wrote blogs you would have

list and wrote blogs you would have list and wrote blogs you would have never discovered me and it's a whole

never discovered me and it's a whole never discovered me and it's a whole different game and so and so all those

different game and so and so all those different game and so and so all those followers on the quote unquote rented

followers on the quote unquote rented followers on the quote unquote rented channels which are not rented um they're

channels which are not rented um they're channels which are not rented um they're owned I own my LinkedIn profile um just

owned I own my LinkedIn profile um just owned I own my LinkedIn profile um just like like an email database and on the

like like an email database and on the like like an email database and on the email database side we have 50,000

email database side we have 50,000 email database side we have 50,000 person email dat database and we use

person email dat database and we use person email dat database and we use that to get people to events and send that to get people to events and send that to get people to events and send out new information keep people up to out new information keep people up to out new information keep people up to date and things like that email just date and things like that email just date and things like that email just becomes another distribution Channel

becomes another distribution Channel becomes another distribution Channel just like LinkedIn is for Content those

just like LinkedIn is for Content those just like LinkedIn is for Content those distribution channels have different distribution channels have different distribution channels have different Dynamics emails changing just like

Dynamics emails changing just like Dynamics emails changing just like linkedin's algorithm's changing like

linkedin's algorithm's changing like linkedin's algorithm's changing like email open rates continue to decline so

email open rates continue to decline so email open rates continue to decline so much spam coming out of sales engagement

much spam coming out of sales engagement much spam coming out of sales engagement platforms that like reply rates and

platforms that like reply rates and platforms that like reply rates and response rates and all those things are response rates and all those things are response rates and all those things are going down more things are hitting spam

going down more things are hitting spam going down more things are hitting spam the algorithms in email are getting the algorithms in email are getting the algorithms in email are getting better it's the exact same [ __ ] thing

better it's the exact same [ __ ] thing better it's the exact same [ __ ] thing as a LinkedIn audience except that you

as a LinkedIn audience except that you as a LinkedIn audience except that you can track whether they opened your email

can track whether they opened your email can track whether they opened your email or not personally so I feel pretty

or not personally so I feel pretty or not personally so I feel pretty passionately about this that the the

passionately about this that the the passionately about this that the the real answer is both it's not either or

real answer is both it's not either or real answer is both it's not either or um but you'll never get the like big

um but you'll never get the like big um but you'll never get the like big successful email audience if you don't

successful email audience if you don't successful email audience if you don't use the other channels to create

use the other channels to create use the other channels to create attenion where there's significant reach

attenion where there's significant reach attenion where there's significant reach the difference between email and the difference between email and the difference between email and Linkedin is that in 2019 when I posted

Linkedin is that in 2019 when I posted Linkedin is that in 2019 when I posted on LinkedIn a million people saw my post

on LinkedIn a million people saw my post on LinkedIn a million people saw my post and that doesn't happen in email I don't

and that doesn't happen in email I don't and that doesn't happen in email I don't send one email and then people when I

send one email and then people when I send one email and then people when I have no followers they forward it to a

have no followers they forward it to a have no followers they forward it to a million people it doesn't work like that

million people it doesn't work like that million people it doesn't work like that and so you need to understand the

and so you need to understand the and so you need to understand the different use cases for for these two

different use cases for for these two different use cases for for these two different mediums and understand that different mediums and understand that different mediums and understand that they're just they're simply both just they're just they're simply both just they're just they're simply both just distribution channels so that's what I

distribution channels so that's what I distribution channels so that's what I would say there that's a very compressed

would say there that's a very compressed would say there that's a very compressed uh personal branding master class right

there uh on the topics of LinkedIn there uh on the topics of LinkedIn YouTube video and podcast do you think

YouTube video and podcast do you think YouTube video and podcast do you think these channels are going to have more

these channels are going to have more these channels are going to have more power in affiliate

power in affiliate power in affiliate marketing

um yeah maybe like uh I I think it's um yeah maybe like uh I I think it's hard to say let me say let me talk about

hard to say let me say let me talk about hard to say let me say let me talk about some of the things that I would say um

some of the things that I would say um some of the things that I would say um so YouTube shorts is becoming a powerful

so YouTube shorts is becoming a powerful so YouTube shorts is becoming a powerful SEO engine uh Google is showing YouTube

SEO engine uh Google is showing YouTube SEO engine uh Google is showing YouTube shorts at the top of search rankings to

shorts at the top of search rankings to shorts at the top of search rankings to the level where we do zero SEO at my

the level where we do zero SEO at my the level where we do zero SEO at my company and I'm showing up number one on

company and I'm showing up number one on company and I'm showing up number one on key terms like sales velocity versus

key terms like sales velocity versus key terms like sales velocity versus sales cycle length um do using and the

sales cycle length um do using and the sales cycle length um do using and the what shows up is a YouTube shorts video

what shows up is a YouTube shorts video what shows up is a YouTube shorts video and YouTube owns shorts which is owned

and YouTube owns shorts which is owned and YouTube owns shorts which is owned by Google who owns the the

by Google who owns the the by Google who owns the the SEO um and so that's one thing to be

SEO um and so that's one thing to be SEO um and so that's one thing to be aware of is that YouTube shorts become

aware of is that YouTube shorts become aware of is that YouTube shorts become getting more put into search less it's

getting more put into search less it's getting more put into search less it's not all blogs anymore it's a lot more

not all blogs anymore it's a lot more not all blogs anymore it's a lot more content coming from other owned content coming from other owned content coming from other owned properties that Google

properties that Google properties that Google owns um I think that uh YouTube uh as a

owns um I think that uh YouTube uh as a owns um I think that uh YouTube uh as a regular regular channel landscape

regular regular channel landscape regular regular channel landscape YouTube desktop version more than shorts

YouTube desktop version more than shorts YouTube desktop version more than shorts mobile version is a strong affiliate

mobile version is a strong affiliate mobile version is a strong affiliate Channel and always has been you can get

Channel and always has been you can get Channel and always has been you can get that you can do like sort of product

that you can do like sort of product that you can do like sort of product features you can do call to action at

features you can do call to action at features you can do call to action at the end you can get a lot of people to

the end you can get a lot of people to the end you can get a lot of people to to watch a video and then link out

to watch a video and then link out to watch a video and then link out that's a core uh part of an affiliate

that's a core uh part of an affiliate that's a core uh part of an affiliate motion um Tik Tok can be an interest

motion um Tik Tok can be an interest motion um Tik Tok can be an interest like all these different social media

like all these different social media like all these different social media platforms with like uh content based

platforms with like uh content based platforms with like uh content based algorithms so content based on the

algorithms so content based on the algorithms so content based on the interests of the content rather than the

interests of the content rather than the interests of the content rather than the followers can all be great mediums to

followers can all be great mediums to followers can all be great mediums to get reach and get reach and get reach and awareness um and the fact that it's now

awareness um and the fact that it's now awareness um and the fact that it's now based on the content that you publish

based on the content that you publish based on the content that you publish not the followers that you have means

not the followers that you have means not the followers that you have means the people that see the content are the people that see the content are the people that see the content are actually interested in it um and so I

actually interested in it um and so I actually interested in it um and so I think that's a really uh a really

think that's a really uh a really think that's a really uh a really interesting development in how social interesting development in how social interesting development in how social media Works traditional platform like

media Works traditional platform like media Works traditional platform like LinkedIn hasn't adopted that yet but if

LinkedIn hasn't adopted that yet but if LinkedIn hasn't adopted that yet but if you watch Tik Talk's doing it reals is

you watch Tik Talk's doing it reals is you watch Tik Talk's doing it reals is already in there um shorts is getting

already in there um shorts is getting already in there um shorts is getting there if not there already um LinkedIn

there if not there already um LinkedIn there if not there already um LinkedIn will have to make adjustments to their

will have to make adjustments to their will have to make adjustments to their algorithm just based on how all the

algorithm just based on how all the algorithm just based on how all the other platforms follow they'll probably other platforms follow they'll probably other platforms follow they'll probably be two three 5 years behind so people

be two three 5 years behind so people be two three 5 years behind so people don't need to rush out and try and solve

don't need to rush out and try and solve don't need to rush out and try and solve this right this right this right now uh coming towards the end in

now uh coming towards the end in now uh coming towards the end in affiliate marketing there's a lot of

affiliate marketing there's a lot of affiliate marketing there's a lot of people on the affiliate side or people on the affiliate side or people on the affiliate side or Publishers as well as the operators and

Publishers as well as the operators and Publishers as well as the operators and the affiliate programs that I believe

the affiliate programs that I believe the affiliate programs that I believe are not using data to their advantage uh

are not using data to their advantage uh are not using data to their advantage uh they're not looking at things like they're not looking at things like they're not looking at things like earnings per click they're not looking

earnings per click they're not looking earnings per click they're not looking at conversion rates and they're not

at conversion rates and they're not at conversion rates and they're not looking at like data in a detailed way

looking at like data in a detailed way looking at like data in a detailed way especially from an attribution point of especially from an attribution point of especially from an attribution point of view I'm assuming you see the same thing

view I'm assuming you see the same thing view I'm assuming you see the same thing on the B2B side and I'm just wondering

on the B2B side and I'm just wondering on the B2B side and I'm just wondering what's your take on how how to get

what's your take on how how to get what's your take on how how to get people kind of looking at data in the

people kind of looking at data in the people kind of looking at data in the right way um and stop them from having

right way um and stop them from having right way um and stop them from having just analysis

just analysis just analysis paralysis um so I would say that

paralysis um so I would say that paralysis um so I would say that everybody's looking at data in some way

everybody's looking at data in some way everybody's looking at data in some way like I I think that people listening to like I I think that people listening to like I I think that people listening to the podcast uh at least the people that

the podcast uh at least the people that the podcast uh at least the people that I interact with in B2B like if you said

I interact with in B2B like if you said I interact with in B2B like if you said you're not looking at data they would be you're not looking at data they would be you're not looking at data they would be like you're wrong I look at data all the like you're wrong I look at data all the like you're wrong I look at data all the time the question is what data are you

time the question is what data are you time the question is what data are you looking at and how are you looking at it

looking at and how are you looking at it looking at and how are you looking at it um the big difference between B2B and B

um the big difference between B2B and B um the big difference between B2B and B to C for the most part is that in B Toc

to C for the most part is that in B Toc to C for the most part is that in B Toc a conversion is a sale Somebody went in

a conversion is a sale Somebody went in a conversion is a sale Somebody went in there put their credit card in checked

there put their credit card in checked there put their credit card in checked out and you received money in B2B a

out and you received money in B2B a out and you received money in B2B a conversion is a form fill it's intent

conversion is a form fill it's intent conversion is a form fill it's intent data coming from an ABM platform it's

data coming from an ABM platform it's data coming from an ABM platform it's somebody registered for your event it

somebody registered for your event it somebody registered for your event it has it's so far away from an actual

has it's so far away from an actual has it's so far away from an actual transaction in B2B that people over

transaction in B2B that people over transaction in B2B that people over optimize for the event registration or

optimize for the event registration or optimize for the event registration or the form fill not the actual and result

the form fill not the actual and result the form fill not the actual and result um and so that's the core the core issue

um and so that's the core the core issue um and so that's the core the core issue that a lot of B2B companies have is that

that a lot of B2B companies have is that that a lot of B2B companies have is that they use models and Frameworks and ways

they use models and Frameworks and ways they use models and Frameworks and ways of thinking that come from affiliate

of thinking that come from affiliate of thinking that come from affiliate marketing or media and publishing

marketing or media and publishing marketing or media and publishing companies that make money based on companies that make money based on companies that make money based on Impressions and add revenue and B Toc

Impressions and add revenue and B Toc Impressions and add revenue and B Toc companies that sell $60 shoes and then

companies that sell $60 shoes and then companies that sell $60 shoes and then take those best practices and try and do

take those best practices and try and do take those best practices and try and do that for their 100K ACV cyber security

that for their 100K ACV cyber security that for their 100K ACV cyber security platform and no [ __ ] it doesn't work

platform and no [ __ ] it doesn't work platform and no [ __ ] it doesn't work because buying $60 shoes as one person

because buying $60 shoes as one person because buying $60 shoes as one person versus buying a $100,000 cybercity

versus buying a $100,000 cybercity versus buying a $100,000 cybercity platform across an Enterprise with you

platform across an Enterprise with you platform across an Enterprise with you know five s 10 different influencers and

know five s 10 different influencers and know five s 10 different influencers and decision makers in that sale it's an

decision makers in that sale it's an decision makers in that sale it's an entirely different motion and we need entirely different motion and we need entirely different motion and we need entirely different quote we need entirely different quote we need entirely different quote we need entirely different best practices when

entirely different best practices when entirely different best practices when we think about

we think about we think about that last question is what do you see as

that last question is what do you see as that last question is what do you see as the future of affiliate marketing as it

the future of affiliate marketing as it the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business

intelligence um I think there will intelligence um I think there will always be a place for affiliate

always be a place for affiliate always be a place for affiliate marketing but I think the more powerful

marketing but I think the more powerful marketing but I think the more powerful of uh of that would be influencer and

of uh of that would be influencer and of uh of that would be influencer and key opinion leader marketing at this key opinion leader marketing at this key opinion leader marketing at this point I think that like affiliate

point I think that like affiliate point I think that like affiliate marketing's super uh and still people

marketing's super uh and still people marketing's super uh and still people are making money on it today but like

are making money on it today but like are making money on it today but like crushed in the early 2010's Google ER

crushed in the early 2010's Google ER crushed in the early 2010's Google ER Google SEO era where you just rank you

Google SEO era where you just rank you Google SEO era where you just rank you make a list of the top five things you

make a list of the top five things you make a list of the top five things you link out with affiliate links and you

link out with affiliate links and you link out with affiliate links and you make that Revenue as people get their

make that Revenue as people get their make that Revenue as people get their information in different places other

information in different places other information in different places other than search which is the same thing than search which is the same thing than search which is the same thing that's happening in B2B right now is

that's happening in B2B right now is that's happening in B2B right now is that B2B strategies are all built around

that B2B strategies are all built around that B2B strategies are all built around how just built around Google from a

how just built around Google from a how just built around Google from a digital standpoint um where all people

digital standpoint um where all people digital standpoint um where all people are actually getting their information are actually getting their information are actually getting their information not going to Google and saying what not going to Google and saying what not going to Google and saying what should I buy for this anymore top five

should I buy for this anymore top five should I buy for this anymore top five things for this like when I make that

things for this like when I make that things for this like when I make that search now I go to Tik Tok and I search

search now I go to Tik Tok and I search search now I go to Tik Tok and I search that best top restaurants in

that best top restaurants in that best top restaurants in Austin um be best pairs of shoes for you

Austin um be best pairs of shoes for you Austin um be best pairs of shoes for you CrossFit stuff like that I make searches

CrossFit stuff like that I make searches CrossFit stuff like that I make searches on that on Instagram and Tik Tok now and

on that on Instagram and Tik Tok now and on that on Instagram and Tik Tok now and I'm not the only one um and the reason

I'm not the only one um and the reason I'm not the only one um and the reason is because the content is better and

is because the content is better and is because the content is better and it's more accurate and it's more it's

it's more accurate and it's more it's it's more accurate and it's more it's more informative than the blog and a lot

more informative than the blog and a lot more informative than the blog and a lot of the people that are on Tik Tok doing

of the people that are on Tik Tok doing of the people that are on Tik Tok doing those things are not making 10% when

those things are not making 10% when those things are not making 10% when they sell it to you so it's more

they sell it to you so it's more they sell it to you so it's more honest um and so I think that there I

honest um and so I think that there I honest um and so I think that there I think that's what I see in the in the

think that's what I see in the in the think that's what I see in the in the space is that there's based on the

space is that there's based on the space is that there's based on the movement of how people get information

movement of how people get information movement of how people get information to make all types of different purchases

to make all types of different purchases to make all types of different purchases and that move moving away from search

and that move moving away from search and that move moving away from search and becoming less transactional I think

and becoming less transactional I think and becoming less transactional I think that we as quote unquote I'm not of an

that we as quote unquote I'm not of an that we as quote unquote I'm not of an affiliate marketer as affiliate affiliate marketer as affiliate affiliate marketer as affiliate marketers need to think about how they

marketers need to think about how they marketers need to think about how they move that transition to continue to be

move that transition to continue to be move that transition to continue to be at the place that that is the critical

at the place that that is the critical at the place that that is the critical part of a buying decision which happens

part of a buying decision which happens part of a buying decision which happens other than Google most people that get other than Google most people that get other than Google most people that get to Google Now have already made their

to Google Now have already made their to Google Now have already made their decision they use Google for decision they use Google for decision they use Google for navigational search how do I pass

navigational search how do I pass navigational search how do I pass through Google to get to this website through Google to get to this website through Google to get to this website that I already wanted to get to um and

that I already wanted to get to um and that I already wanted to get to um and so I think people need to understand and

so I think people need to understand and so I think people need to understand and recognize the Dynamics of that of where

recognize the Dynamics of that of where recognize the Dynamics of that of where the information come from comes from and

the information come from comes from and the information come from comes from and try to be the most value part most

try to be the most value part most try to be the most value part most valuable part of the value chain

valuable part of the value chain valuable part of the value chain um which is more further Upstream now so

um which is more further Upstream now so um which is more further Upstream now so you might not be in affiliate marketing

you might not be in affiliate marketing you might not be in affiliate marketing but if you ever come over to this side

but if you ever come over to this side but if you ever come over to this side I'm pretty sure you're going to do I'm pretty sure you're going to do I'm pretty sure you're going to do extremely well uh Chris thank you so

extremely well uh Chris thank you so extremely well uh Chris thank you so much for joining the podcast how can much for joining the podcast how can much for joining the podcast how can people get a hold of you uh you can

people get a hold of you uh you can people get a hold of you uh you can follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram Chris

follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram Chris follow me on LinkedIn or Instagram Chris Walker 171 you can also follow the B2B

Walker 171 you can also follow the B2B Walker 171 you can also follow the B2B Revenue vitals podcast on Apple Spotify

Revenue vitals podcast on Apple Spotify Revenue vitals podcast on Apple Spotify or anywhere else the podcasts are or anywhere else the podcasts are or anywhere else the podcasts are published awesome I listen to that

published awesome I listen to that published awesome I listen to that podcast all the time Chris you uh thank

podcast all the time Chris you uh thank podcast all the time Chris you uh thank you so much for this thanks thanks for

you so much for this thanks thanks for you so much for this thanks thanks for having me okay

having me okay having me okay thank you for tuning in to the affiliate

thank you for tuning in to the affiliate thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to

bi podcast I'd like to take this time to bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a Reading

ask for a small favor to leave a Reading ask for a small favor to leave a Reading and Review wherever you listen to your

and Review wherever you listen to your and Review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach

podcast that helps us expand our reach podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories

to rank higher in podcast directories to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more

and reach more and reach more listeners