The online bingo industry with Sue Dawson

It's all about being getting as much data as possible from analytics, from search console, from looker studio. So getting a looker studio report where we can see for each click out, where did that come in on? And what was the the channel? Was it Google? Was it Bing? Was it direct or something else? And knowing all of that can really help you shape your content, your strategy, everything really.

and the deals that you can cut and the offers, the exclusive offers that you can get operators to give you. The more information you've got about player behavior and intent, the better. I'm John Wright and you're listening to AffiliateBI, the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by Stats. Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast. Today we're chatting with Sue Dawson, who's the operations director at FTD Digital.

She started off as head of content where I think she still does that today and I know where she wears an SEO hat in the company. So Sue, very happy to have you on the show. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. So you're part of an affiliate group that's winning a ton of awards, especially in the bingo space. And I want to know I want to ask what is ETD Digital doing right in your opinion?

So, we're a very small organization and that means you can have people wearing multiple hats and doing bits of things that they're really good at and collaborating with other people very closely. We can also be agile. So that's onboarding people quickly and responding to changes quickly and agreeing what we're going to do based on what we think is going to be happening in a year's time in five years time without having to go through multiple levels of an organization to get things signed off.

So that's a huge advantage for us. And another thing is that we are very hot on making connections. So inside the industry, from all areas of the industry and from outside the industry to get as much information as we can and different angles as we can as to what's going to happen and maybe other projects we could be working on and of course lastly we actually know a huge amount about bingo and a lot of people who are trying to do affiliation in bingo don't.

That makes a lot of sense. what you're saying sounds obvious, but I think we're definitely going to go in into content because it's one of my favorite topics in affiliate marketing where a lot of people are just doing bingo content for the sake of it where it's it's the boring SEO playbook and write about bingo. I'm going to do bingo reviews and bingo news and I'm just going to rank for it.

And I think we're finally at a at an age where Google's saying, "Okay, we had enough." It's it's looking for authority in bingo. That's right. authority and content that actually engages. So in the real world, real money bingo world, users are definitely interested in reading about new bingo games in detail because sometimes when you go to a site and there's a new bingo game, the documentation on how to play it isn't very comprehensive or isn't easy to find.

So people will actually come to us for a big lowdown on it. And do you think the content game has changed a bit with how Google ranks websites today and probably how it'll keep changing? Oh, completely. So, first of all, you've got the helpful content updates and the reviews update. reviews update. And what that has meant is that we've had to take a look at a lot of our old content, content, revise it, update it so it's properly current, expand it to make it genuinely helpful

to people, and remove some old content that we felt was not useful, that was a bit thin, just to make it a better experience for people. So this is because of where Google says they're going. So John Müller has repeatedly said that what content should do is to provide unique value to the web. And I've personally heard him say that about four times. But But what Google says and what Google does at the moment there is a massive disconnect because because I think it's obvious to

anyone who's been looking at the SERs over the last couple of years that the algorithm is struggling to deal with certain things. So, parasite SEO aka site reputation abuse, hacked sites, hacked sites, and poor quality AI generated content. And clearly, Google is trying to get on top of all of that, but who knows when it'll actually happen. So, while we have to bear in mind what Google has said about what content should be like, what you may actually see in a search can be quite different.

quite different. Yeah, I agree. I think the one thing that I've been trying to focus on a bit more over the last year is going how can you create or become the source of a new data set. So I think in your example you just gave one which is like no game documentation at least in theory Google's able to look at your sites and go what is unique here or what is something that someone else could copy you and then when they do copy you it's

like they they at least know who wrote that first. that first. Absolutely. And in the case of a new bingo game, I can play it and add a personal take, which I think is adding unique value. unique value. Yeah. And do you think affiliate sites need to look at content differently from marketing channels, especially beyond written content? Absolutely. Partly because of what I just said about the algorithm being so up and down at the moment, but also because Google's dominance of the search space is just

going down. There's in the 2020s there's lots of other ways for people to engage with content. with content. So what we've done, we have interactive tools on our websites. WDW Bingo has a bingo caller and best bingo site has a bingo card generator and we found that those are getting a lot of traffic and engagement. Some of it not from Google, some of it from other websites or from social media.

And we've also got instructional videos on them which have been viewed hundreds of times. And that's just with a link from our website. Watch this video to learn more. And I think that sort of content interactive and engaging is a channel that people should be pursuing. pursuing. UGC in gambling affiliation is very difficult to do because people only tend to want to have something to say about a gambling site if it's bad.

So if you try to run us generated reviews, you'll get a lot of one star reviews. So we wanted to do something different which people could interact with and we think it's been pretty successful. In fact, we're building a third interactive tool for another website that we're launching soon. More news on that in a while. Cool. So, what is your take of what's going to be around the corner?

We know Google is currently dominant today. I think we're seeing that chat GPT is becoming a bigger I forget. I looked in the top 10 of most visited websites and chat GPT is already in the top 10. And we already know that they are basically now a search engine in my opinion with search GPT. So what do you think is going to be the the future of of channels?

channels? AI has got to play a role. Absolutely. Because people are going to move away from the sort of search that people my age are used to doing, which is three keywords strung together to asking much more natural questions and questions that lead on from each other. So now, for example, if someone wants to look for bingo sites, first of all, they'll type in bingo sites, then they'll see the results and go, "No, that's not what I want because those are all Canadian or something." I'll

put UK on the end. Bingo sites UK. And then maybe bingo sites UK with welcome bonus. But But with AI, that can be much more of a conversation. And that's why AI searches will eventually take over. It could take quite a while though. Yeah. Actually, you probably have changed my mind on it cuz I actually I was thinking about this last night where I think AI answers and overviews are like, can I trust them?

And then I think what we're seeing is Google's relying on a lot of different UGC type of content like Reddit to give you those answers. I think if Google does that, then it's going to become a trusted source to ask it a question. But I think we know the old Google today, which is like, do does anyone trust like best online casinos? And then you type that into Google and you get your old results.

I think that those days of trust are are slowly disappearing. So I think the way people interact with search engines is going to be different. And yeah, actually I think you might be right that Google is going to be forced to do the right thing. And if they don't, we know what's going to happen. happen. happen. is gonna do it for them. But it's also an age thing.

So Gen Z don't search the way that I search. Yeah. Same for me. It's I'm used to Google, but I've read that this was like a joke 5 years ago that Facebook's for old people. Now we're looking at this going Google's for old people. Hurts to read that, but it's true. We're seeing look at the ways you look for a restaurant. It could start with Google, but it could also start with Ship Advisor.

It could start with Reddit. Yes. And both tripadvisor and Reddit are all about find somebody who knows about restaurants in that area and ask them and the somebody is actually a person. Yeah, I agree. Not an AI and not a website that could have been built with AI. Yeah. And I think it goes the same as another context where it's okay, I'm looking for an SEO consultant or I'm looking for a lawyer in this city.

It's I think people want they don't just want like the directory. They want okay, now I want trust. It's going from yellow pages where it's just a total directory and you got to figure out who you're going to work with and now it's I expect trust to to be come with it. Absolutely. And when you click on something in the search results and you go to a website, the website needs to scream you can trust us and why immediately because some websites you look at them

you go oh no people are getting much more discerning I think. Yeah. So, we had a proper catchup in Brighton SEO and I was uh surprised to see you there, but I'm like that tells me you know your SEO stuff. So, why are SEO events important for you to attend? And would you say this something you think others should consider too and adding to their schedule? It was quite interesting that were quite a few people from the eye gaming industry there at this time which I

hadn't seen before. Normally, you don't really see anyone and and this is partly because the eye gaming industry is different. So, some of the techniques that you'll hear people in general SEO talking about just don't work. For example, there's a thing called the skyscraper technique where you contact lots of websites and you say, "I see you've got a link to this article, but our article about the same thing is much better.

Would you link to us instead?" If you try that with I gaming, the answer will be no because the original link is a paid link. Yes. So, that doesn't work. But it's really important to hear what's going on in the industry at large, to hear what people think the next big thing is going to be. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. You remember when voice search was going to be the next big thing.

thing. But just knowing what people are interested in, what people are doing, where it's all going, and also you do get to hear from people like John Buller, which is really interesting. Yeah, it's as much as we can argue for and against listening to Google, I came away from Brighton SEO going, "Wow, I took so many notes from so many of the panels." And for me, it was night and day.

I gaming uh conferences, you go there and it's it's chat, habit, talk about business. And here, this was like, what are you working on? What's around the corner? And I was really shocked at some of the presentations going, "Wow, people are taking things to the next level. They're working on things without a playbook. It's not like they're just copying someone." And I feel like I gaming SEO that is how it's been done for 1015 years.

It's copy someone and here's the recipe and just there's no innovation. And I think the very fact that we saw so many people from the eye gaming industry there this time shows that no longer works and that you really do need to get these perspectives from outside the eye gaming industry. Yeah, I agree. I I think there's some affiliates that they're already stuck and I wonder what is in their SEO strategy for not just this year but what do they have for 2025 and I think

if they're not going to these events or not networking with some of these interesting SEOs and for me in particular I think outside of high gaming I think that's where you can really learn a lot and people are more willing to share when it's like oh this is what we do in this industry and you can learn from each other without feeling like you're giving away secrets.

learned so much from someone who's got a slightly different perspective. Yeah. So, I want to talk about the bingo niche. Is it shrinking or growing or is it shrinking in certain markets and growing in other markets? What's the whole landscape of bingo today? Okay. It's it is and it isn't. So, traditionally, traditionally, say 15 years ago, you'd have your traditional bingo site which was built around the bingo products with a huge community and some slot games on the side.

And that is over. The reason that it's over is because changes in player behavior because they're moving from big screen devices, keyboards to mobile phones. So where people used to think that a huge thing about the bingo was you'd meet people and you chat to people, a lot of that has just gone away because you're on a mobile, you're out and about doing something else. You've got a tiny screen, you're doing this when you're trying to reply to the chats, you might only speak in emojis

or not at all. And that means that the whole community side of it has become a niche. less than 20% of people participate in the chat. That was the last estimate we heard from a bingo software supplier. software supplier. The big operators, People at Heart, Bingo, Buzz Bingo, Paddyy Power are still doing the whole community and chat thing with lots of bingo promotions, hosted chats, hosted chats, exclusive bingo rooms, but they are doing it alongside all of the other products too.

not just this few little slot games on the side anymore. And the other side of the coin is that for all those people who aren't particularly interested in community and chat, but just want to play bingo as another game, there's a lot of sites that offer that now. And that's thanks to Pragmatic Play because Pragmatic Play made it possible for casino operators to add bingo as a plug-in without having to do all that work with bingo promotions, hiring chat hosts, all that expensive stuff.

If anything, the game itself has got more penetration, but bingo as a primary interest is definitely shrinking in the UK. Okay. But is it picking up in Asia, for example? for example? Latam, I believe, is where there's most interest in bingo. But there are so many cultural differences around a game like that. We don't have any plans to expand bingo into other geos. Casino, yes, bingo, no.

But it sounds if it's got this community aspect. I think I gaming sometimes suffers from that. Poker community aspect. Sports, I think people are trying to make it more community- based going how do we connect players into groups? That's what fantasy sports is. I actually think bingo might have a potential for it to be a product that you can do better marketing with. So rather than relying on the demand like casino, it's actually you can actually create the demand.

Yes, absolutely. But it's going to be a smaller niche than it was. You're not going to have this fanatic search for bingo sites that you had in say 2015. But just because it's a smaller niche doesn't mean that you shouldn't do anything with it. Exactly. It means you can anything. It means you can do more with it. True, but then they you're competing with FTD digital and that that's no easy task.

Quite why do bingo and slots go hand in hand? I know this answer, but I think this would be educational for people to understand the connectivity where it's like you got games here and bingo like how's this working? So remember what I said about these traditional bingo sites which did have a few slot games on the side. Now, the reason that they had slot games is that when you're playing a game of bingo, it can take quite a while to play and you can also have

to wait a while for the next game. So, if you don't feel like chatting, like chatting, what are you going to do? Operators put slot games in the bingo rooms so that people would have something to do while they're waiting for the next game if they don't feel like talking. And once a bingo player has actually tried slots, they really quite like you to carry on playing slots.

And there's a couple of reasons for this. One is how often you win. Bingo, unless you're playing at a bingo site with pathetically quiet bingo rooms and tiny prizes, is an extremely high variance game. You could win big, but you might have to play hundreds of games before you win anything. And that that can get players down. So when they start playing slots, they win more often.

And even if it's a high variance game like Fluffy Favorites, which is a very popular game amongst bingo players and has been for over 10 years, that's high variance, but you'll still win more often. And they don't mind that it's high variance because they're coming from a super high variance game. variance game. And the other thing is instant gratification because again because a bingo game takes a while to play.

Slot game two and a half seconds for the spin to resolve itself. And then the bonus round with all the bells and whistles and everything. So that is the same thing happens when people start buying scratch cards along with a lottery ticket. And would you say that the there's a good healthy rev share or revenue that comes from the slot games compared to bingo? What's the mix?

Um, I I believe that most of the actual revenue comes from the slot games because to do bingo properly, I don't know about pragmatic play bingo because they're not doing any of the overheads like chat or promotions or anything. But with things like playtech bingo where you've got hosted chat, those are quite expensive to do. So I would imagine that they're probably not making the money on the bingo, but they're making the money on the other games that the bingo players play and that the bingo

is a acquisition and retention tool. Yeah. Because I I've heard the same when it comes to sports betting that most of the revenue from a sports book actually comes through the casino part. And the other thing the other interesting thing about bingo players and slot games is that bingo players very often do not consider themselves to be gamblers. soap, bingo, traditional game, social game, not gambling. And if you give a bingo player the right kind of slot games to play, they will start playing slot games

and they won't consider those to be gambling either. But it has to be these very lightweight looking, looking, visually exciting games. So, a game like Gemix, which is all about falling jewels, or Fluffy Favorites, which is all about cuddly toys and a fairground grabber, grabber, they can transition to those kind of games without having to make the transition to from not gambling to gambling. gambling. So, there's that, too.

Whereas a casino game, that's obviously gambling, and they don't want to go there without changing their mindset. All right. So we have high variance with slots where it's like you could win more often but not big bingo which to me it sounds almost like a a lottery ticket where it's like when you're winning big. So would you say there's a connectivity with lot uh lottery players as well?

Certainly with the really big money bingo games, you'll get some sites, for example, Buzz Bingo, have a monthly game with £100,000 prize. That is definitely pushing the same buttons as the lottery. And even you have to wait a month. You buy your tickets in advance. So that's that same super high variance, tiny chance of winning a huge amount of money. Okay. And then the next question I've got is I wrote it down, but I'm just going to rewrite rewrite it.

Is it Do you think there could be a streamer for bingo games where they're playing the slot games on the side, but they're basically they're streaming and they're talking about bingo? about bingo? I don't really think that would work. So, as I said, you know, how I said that we had some YouTube videos that have got hundreds of views. Most bingo videos on YouTube haven't even got tens of views.

People just don't seem to be interested in watching bingo content there. And I think it is because even if you're playing a bingo game can be quite boring unless you're playing slots or chatting on the side. I don't think you could show the chat in streaming because of privacy. Yeah. Yeah. So, it'll come back to slots again. Okay. Uh if any of the big slot streamers wanted to play slots in a bingo room and maybe get a big bingo win as well, that would be quite

interesting. But I think you'd be looking at mostly a slots audience there. I I think there could be a market for it and I think someone would have to test it to know if it works. And this is what I believe to be true without knowing if I'm right in the bingo space in the B2B space as what we have to do as a company is sometimes we'll have videos that they actually will have that low engagement like it'll be like 10 likes but then I'll

actually get an email from it. So, I'm wondering if the concentrated engagement could be an actual player ready to go. Okay. So, if I was going to try to make bingo streaming work, I would try to do a deal with someone like Buzz Bingo because actually the big operators often put video content in their bingo rooms. Um, usually it's a pre-recorded show, but Buzz Bingo actually have live presenters who are actually watching the game, commenting on the game, running bonus games for people to play.

I try and do a deal with them to stream that. Yeah. Because that's plainly working for them in terms of engaging their own player. It must be working because they started off with two hours a day of it and now it's all day. That to me is this that's the signal right there. That's the answer. The answer is I think there is a market for it. So maybe that's to be determined.

So we'll leave it at that one. Okay. So the last question is, what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence? And I'm pretty sure this is going to be an SEO answer. For years, it's all about being getting as much data as possible from analytics, from search console, from look studio. So getting a looker studio report where we can see for each click out where did that come in on and what was the the channel?

Was it Google? Was it Bing? Was it direct or something else? And knowing all of that can really help you shape your content, your strategy, everything really, and the deals that you can cut and the offers, the exclusive offers that you can get operators to give you. The more information you've got about player behavior and intent, the better. Do you sometimes do this where you ask an operator going, "Hey, could I actually get a bit more data that's not in the current backends and go, look,

I'm looking for player reports, player engagement reports, like what games are they playing?" So, not me personally, but I know Chris is constantly badgering operators for more information because it's all about the data. It's all about getting as much data as possible. And are are you playing with the tools like Looker Studio to blend data or take data and build your own custom dashboards when it comes to let's say search console and analytics?

Oh, definitely. Yes, we've got a a custom dashboard actually. Okay. This I'd like to see, but obviously it's not something you could just share, but it's something that we kick out as it's our secret source. Yeah, keep it at that. Sue, thank you so much for doing this. I want to pass it back to you to share how people can get a hold of you if you want them to get a get a hold of you.

So, I'm on LinkedIn. Just search for Bingo Fairy. Bingoofairy. And we'll include the link and and yeah, that LinkedIn link in the show notes. Fantastic. Thank you very much for having me. It's been great. Thanks so much. And looking forward to seeing you next. And we'll be chatting definitely more SEO in person. Great. See you soon. Thank you for tuning in to the AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to

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