B2B SEO with Jamie I.F. from Endorsely

and I'm not trying to buy customs I'm and I'm not trying to buy customs I'm trying to buy utter cult-like devotion

trying to buy utter cult-like devotion trying to buy utter cult-like devotion here and so I'll only ever buy an ad to

here and so I'll only ever buy an ad to here and so I'll only ever buy an ad to like a lead magnet that will make you

like a lead magnet that will make you like a lead magnet that will make you absolutely fall in romantic love with

absolutely fall in romantic love with absolutely fall in romantic love with the brand and and the podcast are the

the brand and and the podcast are the the brand and and the podcast are the same way the level of FaceTime to get to

same way the level of FaceTime to get to same way the level of FaceTime to get to the level of reading a blog post that's the level of reading a blog post that's the level of reading a blog post that's top of funnel is like a 100x people

top of funnel is like a 100x people top of funnel is like a 100x people think it's like you know three times think it's like you know three times think it's like you know three times more it's exponential and everything in

more it's exponential and everything in more it's exponential and everything in this stuff with and same reason we

this stuff with and same reason we this stuff with and same reason we started a community page views are going started a community page views are going started a community page views are going to get harder and harder to drive to get harder and harder to drive to get harder and harder to drive impressions are going to get more and impressions are going to get more and impressions are going to get more and more fickle but if you within an orbit

more fickle but if you within an orbit more fickle but if you within an orbit that is the highest level of devotion

that is the highest level of devotion that is the highest level of devotion and engagement and you have and podcast

and engagement and you have and podcast and engagement and you have and podcast is so Central to that as well and most

is so Central to that as well and most is so Central to that as well and most people just think about real numbers people just think about real numbers people just think about real numbers rather than like how much devotion did rather than like how much devotion did rather than like how much devotion did that buy that intangible like EA that

that buy that intangible like EA that that buy that intangible like EA that you can get from that level of contact

you can get from that level of contact you can get from that level of contact with someone I'm John wght and you're

with someone I'm John wght and you're with someone I'm John wght and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

podcast brought to you by podcast brought to you by sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast

sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Jamie if and

today we're chatting with Jamie if and today we're chatting with Jamie if and he's the founder of endorsi which is a

he's the founder of endorsi which is a he's the founder of endorsi which is a sass affiliate program So Jamie welcome

sass affiliate program So Jamie welcome sass affiliate program So Jamie welcome to the show thank you very much for

to the show thank you very much for to the show thank you very much for having me I appreciate it so I want to

having me I appreciate it so I want to having me I appreciate it so I want to start off with endorsi because we have a

start off with endorsi because we have a start off with endorsi because we have a SAS product and anytime I see any sort

SAS product and anytime I see any sort SAS product and anytime I see any sort of affiliate program software I'm

of affiliate program software I'm of affiliate program software I'm interested I geek out on it but tell us

interested I geek out on it but tell us interested I geek out on it but tell us uh what Endor Le is and I know you've

uh what Endor Le is and I know you've uh what Endor Le is and I know you've got some cool stuff uh from the agency

got some cool stuff uh from the agency got some cool stuff uh from the agency side of things yes my history and

side of things yes my history and side of things yes my history and affiliate marketing to a recap up to the

affiliate marketing to a recap up to the affiliate marketing to a recap up to the point of deciding to create the software

point of deciding to create the software point of deciding to create the software is that I graduated from uni and I Tred

is that I graduated from uni and I Tred is that I graduated from uni and I Tred to start a social Enterprise which is

to start a social Enterprise which is to start a social Enterprise which is like a a a business that helps but and

like a a a business that helps but and like a a a business that helps but and can B profit not like a charity but like

can B profit not like a charity but like can B profit not like a charity but like a quasi half charity I think they call B

a quasi half charity I think they call B a quasi half charity I think they call B Corps or something in in the state or

Corps or something in in the state or Corps or something in in the state or something like that and they can help something like that and they can help something like that and they can help but they also State because like when Co

but they also State because like when Co but they also State because like when Co hit off I was really annoyed that as hit off I was really annoyed that as hit off I was really annoyed that as soon as an economic downturn would soon as an economic downturn would soon as an economic downturn would happen like it was really difficult

happen like it was really difficult happen like it was really difficult because Charities that rely on donations

because Charities that rely on donations because Charities that rely on donations would suddenly be like three weeks away

would suddenly be like three weeks away would suddenly be like three weeks away from having to shut their doors and I from having to shut their doors and I from having to shut their doors and I hated the idea of something that hated the idea of something that hated the idea of something that wouldn't be self- sustaining so my whole

wouldn't be self- sustaining so my whole wouldn't be self- sustaining so my whole thing was creating like a Soup company

thing was creating like a Soup company thing was creating like a Soup company just it does lead into affiliate

just it does lead into affiliate just it does lead into affiliate marketing eventually it's a funny ironic

marketing eventually it's a funny ironic marketing eventually it's a funny ironic twist and turn into it right and so I

twist and turn into it right and so I twist and turn into it right and so I was I got really into this idea of was I got really into this idea of was I got really into this idea of social Enterprise and so we built like

social Enterprise and so we built like social Enterprise and so we built like this I used all my 2,000 that was to my

this I used all my 2,000 that was to my this I used all my 2,000 that was to my name at the time built the packaging the

name at the time built the packaging the name at the time built the packaging the the flavors the recipes and we go to the

the flavors the recipes and we go to the the flavors the recipes and we go to the Sunday markets no one cared and then

Sunday markets no one cared and then Sunday markets no one cared and then worst industry ever low profit margins

worst industry ever low profit margins worst industry ever low profit margins the good spoil in five days and to get

the good spoil in five days and to get the good spoil in five days and to get the economies to scale to be able to do

the economies to scale to be able to do the economies to scale to be able to do that the level where it can self that the level where it can self that the level where it can self sustained to be able to give one away to

sustained to be able to give one away to sustained to be able to give one away to a soup kitchen for everyone we sold you

a soup kitchen for everyone we sold you a soup kitchen for everyone we sold you needed the economies of scale which

needed the economies of scale which needed the economies of scale which required millions and millions of required millions and millions of required millions and millions of dollars that I didn't have so I was like

dollars that I didn't have so I was like dollars that I didn't have so I was like how do I do this I discovered SEO online

how do I do this I discovered SEO online how do I do this I discovered SEO online because I'd been doing SEO for a French

because I'd been doing SEO for a French because I'd been doing SEO for a French publisher when I lived in France back publisher when I lived in France back publisher when I lived in France back during my industry year I was like all

during my industry year I was like all during my industry year I was like all right I'll give this a guy created the

right I'll give this a guy created the right I'll give this a guy created the first like Niche affiliate site and the

first like Niche affiliate site and the first like Niche affiliate site and the ads came through from Google ads at that

ads came through from Google ads at that ads came through from Google ads at that before like the aoic and AD thrives were

before like the aoic and AD thrives were before like the aoic and AD thrives were thing and it got a dollar or a pound in

thing and it got a dollar or a pound in thing and it got a dollar or a pound in a day and I was like oh this is awesome

a day and I was like oh this is awesome a day and I was like oh this is awesome and then I put an Amazon affiliate link and then I put an Amazon affiliate link and then I put an Amazon affiliate link on there at the end and the first day

on there at the end and the first day on there at the end and the first day made made made $15 okay maybe this could actually pay

$15 okay maybe this could actually pay $15 okay maybe this could actually pay itself off because I needed a way to itself off because I needed a way to itself off because I needed a way to make a lot of the money and I was make a lot of the money and I was make a lot of the money and I was experimenting and Googling how to make

experimenting and Googling how to make experimenting and Googling how to make money and all this stuff really luckily

money and all this stuff really luckily money and all this stuff really luckily by luck not really skilled it grew this

by luck not really skilled it grew this by luck not really skilled it grew this portfolio through in 2022 and 23 we did

portfolio through in 2022 and 23 we did portfolio through in 2022 and 23 we did over a million dollars in profit over

over a million dollars in profit over over a million dollars in profit over those two years just about only just and

those two years just about only just and those two years just about only just and peaked about $80,000 in December 2022 I

peaked about $80,000 in December 2022 I peaked about $80,000 in December 2022 I think was when we did the most $81,000

think was when we did the most $81,000 think was when we did the most $81,000 in profit from that on we've been hit by

in profit from that on we've been hit by in profit from that on we've been hit by hcu since like they're on the back hcu since like they're on the back hcu since like they're on the back burner I can't really go below 20 30k

burner I can't really go below 20 30k burner I can't really go below 20 30k because of being like being love a bit

because of being like being love a bit because of being like being love a bit of being traffic that doesn't go down of being traffic that doesn't go down of being traffic that doesn't go down like Google does so they mostly sit on

like Google does so they mostly sit on like Google does so they mostly sit on the back burner but in doing that I

the back burner but in doing that I the back burner but in doing that I started to tweet about it and talk about

started to tweet about it and talk about started to tweet about it and talk about it and then as a result of sort of

it and then as a result of sort of it and then as a result of sort of growing a personal brand on Twitter

growing a personal brand on Twitter growing a personal brand on Twitter within affiliate marketing got talking

within affiliate marketing got talking within affiliate marketing got talking to a company called lasso and I joined

to a company called lasso and I joined to a company called lasso and I joined and headed up the marketing from in 2022

and headed up the marketing from in 2022 and headed up the marketing from in 2022 of December the when they were their

of December the when they were their of December the when they were their Peak I left the KN size in to to do four

Peak I left the KN size in to to do four Peak I left the KN size in to to do four days a week at lasto so headed up the

days a week at lasto so headed up the days a week at lasto so headed up the marketing there I'm really happy with marketing there I'm really happy with marketing there I'm really happy with what happened there but when I was we

what happened there but when I was we what happened there but when I was we were growing the affiliate like Channel

were growing the affiliate like Channel were growing the affiliate like Channel and we did we did a good job in my and we did we did a good job in my and we did we did a good job in my opinion we've got the full case study on opinion we've got the full case study on opinion we've got the full case study on the endorsing website if anyone wants to the endorsing website if anyone wants to the endorsing website if anyone wants to read exactly what we did to grow that

read exactly what we did to grow that read exactly what we did to grow that and forx the the revenue from that but I

and forx the the revenue from that but I and forx the the revenue from that but I was really frustrated I'm not going to was really frustrated I'm not going to was really frustrated I'm not going to name the software we used because name the software we used because name the software we used because actually was pretty good overall but actually was pretty good overall but actually was pretty good overall but there was just some bits that W like

there was just some bits that W like there was just some bits that W like quite what I wanted in the software

quite what I wanted in the software quite what I wanted in the software regarding some of the data which to be

regarding some of the data which to be regarding some of the data which to be fair we haven't gone and done crazy

fair we haven't gone and done crazy fair we haven't gone and done crazy stuff with yet we're still a very much a stuff with yet we're still a very much a stuff with yet we're still a very much a work in progress but just for example

work in progress but just for example work in progress but just for example like one element would be like you just like one element would be like you just like one element would be like you just see conversions and like with a SAS like

see conversions and like with a SAS like see conversions and like with a SAS like a conversion is like a Fickle thing like

a conversion is like a Fickle thing like a conversion is like a Fickle thing like you need to see deeper than just did you need to see deeper than just did you need to see deeper than just did they turn off a month did they try and they turn off a month did they try and they turn off a month did they try and commit affiliate fraud there's a million

commit affiliate fraud there's a million commit affiliate fraud there's a million things that you could have done there is

things that you could have done there is things that you could have done there is like a one is not one like two really

like a one is not one like two really like a one is not one like two really good customers that you can upsell in

good customers that you can upsell in good customers that you can upsell in massive other stuff are worth far more

massive other stuff are worth far more massive other stuff are worth far more than 10 random people that CH but you

than 10 random people that CH but you than 10 random people that CH but you couldn't get that data in order to focus

couldn't get that data in order to focus couldn't get that data in order to focus on specific Affiliates and so I wanted

on specific Affiliates and so I wanted on specific Affiliates and so I wanted to build the software that I wanted to

to build the software that I wanted to to build the software that I wanted to use after I left lasto and so took about

use after I left lasto and so took about use after I left lasto and so took about six months and that is how we came to

six months and that is how we came to six months and that is how we came to launch the endorser software now when we

launch the endorser software now when we launch the endorser software now when we were talking to people people in our

were talking to people people in our were talking to people people in our Network we were like all right want to

Network we were like all right want to Network we were like all right want to buy this and everyone was like yeah it's

buy this and everyone was like yeah it's buy this and everyone was like yeah it's cool but you don't really have time can

cool but you don't really have time can cool but you don't really have time can you run it for us like ah I've got

you run it for us like ah I've got you run it for us like ah I've got to build agency but I don't want to have

to build agency but I don't want to have to build agency but I don't want to have to do and so since then every time we

to do and so since then every time we to do and so since then every time we talk to keeps being interested and so

talk to keeps being interested and so talk to keeps being interested and so we've had to do it and build out the we've had to do it and build out the we've had to do it and build out the systems and reluctantly accidentally

systems and reluctantly accidentally systems and reluctantly accidentally built an affiliate management agency

built an affiliate management agency built an affiliate management agency which has actually been really fun um

which has actually been really fun um which has actually been really fun um because it took all of the processes because it took all of the processes because it took all of the processes that we built or built like having grown

that we built or built like having grown that we built or built like having grown the previous programs like the lasso1

the previous programs like the lasso1 the previous programs like the lasso1 and since then some other brands that I and since then some other brands that I and since then some other brands that I have equity and investment in and lets

have equity and investment in and lets have equity and investment in and lets us play and experiment with things like us play and experiment with things like us play and experiment with things like that and so I think it's good to keep my

that and so I think it's good to keep my that and so I think it's good to keep my affiliate game sharp because I was an

affiliate game sharp because I was an affiliate game sharp because I was an affiliate marketer and then that mad and

affiliate marketer and then that mad and affiliate marketer and then that mad and then learning from the different areas

then learning from the different areas then learning from the different areas for example like I've never done igaming

for example like I've never done igaming for example like I've never done igaming but like now I've done all these other

but like now I've done all these other but like now I've done all these other industries that are around different SAS

industries that are around different SAS industries that are around different SAS niches I've learned so much more that I

niches I've learned so much more that I niches I've learned so much more that I think can make me a better software

think can make me a better software think can make me a better software founder to understand like the pain

founder to understand like the pain founder to understand like the pain points and the like everything that

points and the like everything that points and the like everything that people would need to know in order to people would need to know in order to people would need to know in order to make a better product so it worked out I

make a better product so it worked out I make a better product so it worked out I think uh but it's just not the the a

think uh but it's just not the the a think uh but it's just not the the a typical journey through to to the end

typical journey through to to the end typical journey through to to the end goal I reckon but it does explain why

goal I reckon but it does explain why goal I reckon but it does explain why you're in the position you are do three

you're in the position you are do three you're in the position you are do three different things although it's been a

different things although it's been a different things although it's been a short period of time I think you've done short period of time I think you've done short period of time I think you've done them very well and I think that kind of

them very well and I think that kind of them very well and I think that kind of that's a superpower I actually think

that's a superpower I actually think that's a superpower I actually think it's really interesting that you've it's really interesting that you've it's really interesting that you've added the agency component because we've

added the agency component because we've added the agency component because we've not done that on our side as a company

not done that on our side as a company not done that on our side as a company but we had some customers that said okay

but we had some customers that said okay but we had some customers that said okay not only did they want things set up for

not only did they want things set up for not only did they want things set up for them they knew that there's an advanced

them they knew that there's an advanced them they knew that there's an advanced like bigger picture like how do we get

like bigger picture like how do we get like bigger picture like how do we get this whole bi platform set up and I

this whole bi platform set up and I this whole bi platform set up and I think we're we could be missing out on think we're we could be missing out on think we're we could be missing out on that definitely I'm going to uh pick

that definitely I'm going to uh pick that definitely I'm going to uh pick your brain for a couple more things your brain for a couple more things your brain for a couple more things especially this lasso book yeah it

especially this lasso book yeah it especially this lasso book yeah it depends how in the product management

depends how in the product management depends how in the product management you are because it is it's a great

you are because it is it's a great you are because it is it's a great source of Revenue especially when the source of Revenue especially when the source of Revenue especially when the software is free and we made the software is free and we made the software is free and we made the software free because everyone wanted to software free because everyone wanted to software free because everyone wanted to do the agency oh may maybe like this can

do the agency oh may maybe like this can do the agency oh may maybe like this can pay for this now and it will help with I

pay for this now and it will help with I pay for this now and it will help with I do think that SAS will Trend to

do think that SAS will Trend to do think that SAS will Trend to especially zero data Mo sasses in the

especially zero data Mo sasses in the especially zero data Mo sasses in the next two years will Trend towards being next two years will Trend towards being next two years will Trend towards being free because there will just be less

free because there will just be less free because there will just be less barriers to entry Tech wise but you

barriers to entry Tech wise but you barriers to entry Tech wise but you can't and I'm giving the game away I

can't and I'm giving the game away I can't and I'm giving the game away I proba shouldn't say this but like you proba shouldn't say this but like you proba shouldn't say this but like you can't beat a data Moote and so I I think

can't beat a data Moote and so I I think can't beat a data Moote and so I I think it's an interesting take a lot of the

it's an interesting take a lot of the it's an interesting take a lot of the finance apps let's see profit paddle

finance apps let's see profit paddle finance apps let's see profit paddle founder path cap Chase they're giving

founder path cap Chase they're giving founder path cap Chase they're giving you SAS dashboards but there's a catch I

you SAS dashboards but there's a catch I you SAS dashboards but there's a catch I went through the profit funnel and that

went through the profit funnel and that went through the profit funnel and that was insightful as hell oh here's some

was insightful as hell oh here's some was insightful as hell oh here's some free uh dashboards and it's oh you want

free uh dashboards and it's oh you want free uh dashboards and it's oh you want to optimize your pricing here's how much

to optimize your pricing here's how much to optimize your pricing here's how much it costs I'm

it costs I'm it costs I'm like I spoke to I spoke to Patrick he

like I spoke to I spoke to Patrick he like I spoke to I spoke to Patrick he actually gave some really good advice actually gave some really good advice actually gave some really good advice for when we were building the last bits

for when we were building the last bits for when we were building the last bits of end dorely he exit I think he sold

of end dorely he exit I think he sold of end dorely he exit I think he sold profit for 200 milon or something was

profit for 200 milon or something was profit for 200 milon or something was like oh that's rough I want some of that

like oh that's rough I want some of that like oh that's rough I want some of that kind of money and so he was like what

kind of money and so he was like what kind of money and so he was like what you should do is have the beginning bit

you should do is have the beginning bit you should do is have the beginning bit free and have a minimum of 12 upsells

free and have a minimum of 12 upsells free and have a minimum of 12 upsells all right precisely 12 all right bear it all right precisely 12 all right bear it all right precisely 12 all right bear it in mind all right 12 good noted I'll

in mind all right 12 good noted I'll in mind all right 12 good noted I'll figure out 12 things I can sell people

figure out 12 things I can sell people figure out 12 things I can sell people in the future but he said that you have

in the future but he said that you have in the future but he said that you have to be so good at ux design that no one

to be so good at ux design that no one to be so good at ux design that no one who doesn't need those other 11 ever

who doesn't need those other 11 ever who doesn't need those other 11 ever comes into contact with them and I was comes into contact with them and I was comes into contact with them and I was like oh that's some really good advice

like oh that's some really good advice like oh that's some really good advice I'm definitely going to listen to this I'm definitely going to listen to this I'm definitely going to listen to this episode all over again let's jump into

episode all over again let's jump into episode all over again let's jump into the lasso so it's get lasso doco you're

the lasso so it's get lasso doco you're the lasso so it's get lasso doco you're the CMO there for a few years I followed

the CMO there for a few years I followed the CMO there for a few years I followed it like we were just chatting before

it like we were just chatting before it like we were just chatting before recording no joke in my pitch deck I

recording no joke in my pitch deck I recording no joke in my pitch deck I actually had the lasso as the SEO go to

actually had the lasso as the SEO go to actually had the lasso as the SEO go to market we don't compete with blasso

market we don't compete with blasso market we don't compete with blasso directly but we have some indirect directly but we have some indirect directly but we have some indirect competition so I said look this is

competition so I said look this is competition so I said look this is what's possible so tell some of the work

what's possible so tell some of the work what's possible so tell some of the work you did there so yeah uh a lot of the

you did there so yeah uh a lot of the you did there so yeah uh a lot of the SEO was in place before I joined we just

SEO was in place before I joined we just SEO was in place before I joined we just like the re like and so I can't take

like the re like and so I can't take like the re like and so I can't take credit for some of what happened but we

credit for some of what happened but we credit for some of what happened but we did go and redouble down on some other

did go and redouble down on some other did go and redouble down on some other things as well as like a parasite things as well as like a parasite things as well as like a parasite strategy that I don't think people strategy that I don't think people strategy that I don't think people notice how well or like the results from

notice how well or like the results from notice how well or like the results from that because like but yeah so the great

that because like but yeah so the great that because like but yeah so the great thing was with we had a lasso we had an

thing was with we had a lasso we had an thing was with we had a lasso we had an average quality score problem because we

average quality score problem because we average quality score problem because we had all of these index pages and they

had all of these index pages and they had all of these index pages and they were the pages that now are doing so the

were the pages that now are doing so the were the pages that now are doing so the affiliate program uh list of calls as

affiliate program uh list of calls as affiliate program uh list of calls as well as like the individual scraped

well as like the individual scraped well as like the individual scraped different like Nike and add affiliate

different like Nike and add affiliate different like Nike and add affiliate program pages that have cookie and the

program pages that have cookie and the program pages that have cookie and the commission race the general things and

commission race the general things and commission race the general things and we really reoptimized them and that was we really reoptimized them and that was we really reoptimized them and that was one of the first use cases of one of the first use cases of one of the first use cases of programmatic SEO and AI that I've ever

programmatic SEO and AI that I've ever programmatic SEO and AI that I've ever seen work because you could create these

seen work because you could create these seen work because you could create these incredible templates with the raw HTML

incredible templates with the raw HTML incredible templates with the raw HTML and guidelines have your own scrape data

and guidelines have your own scrape data and guidelines have your own scrape data and then from there actually have

and then from there actually have and then from there actually have information gain in juing AI for a

information gain in juing AI for a information gain in juing AI for a rarity where because people usually

rarity where because people usually rarity where because people usually associate AI with just slot but you can

associate AI with just slot but you can associate AI with just slot but you can actually use it to hit search intent actually use it to hit search intent actually use it to hit search intent with the right programmatic templates with the right programmatic templates with the right programmatic templates and things like that and they did really

and things like that and they did really and things like that and they did really well for traffic and also open the gates

well for traffic and also open the gates well for traffic and also open the gates for all of the rest of the content that for all of the rest of the content that for all of the rest of the content that wasn't given the chance to impress wasn't given the chance to impress wasn't given the chance to impress because while we had a good 60 whatever

because while we had a good 60 whatever because while we had a good 60 whatever Dr it was diluted over so many pages

Dr it was diluted over so many pages Dr it was diluted over so many pages that it didn't give the actual good

that it didn't give the actual good that it didn't give the actual good Pages the chance to shine and so once we

Pages the chance to shine and so once we Pages the chance to shine and so once we improved the quality score from there

improved the quality score from there improved the quality score from there managed to get you know tens of

managed to get you know tens of managed to get you know tens of thousands of more page views from the

thousands of more page views from the thousands of more page views from the actual programmatic Pages which deserve

actual programmatic Pages which deserve actual programmatic Pages which deserve to rank higher now they were better to rank higher now they were better to rank higher now they were better hitting search intent but were hitting search intent but were hitting search intent but were programmatically done infused with AI it

programmatically done infused with AI it programmatically done infused with AI it let the sort of human written unique

let the sort of human written unique let the sort of human written unique Information Gain stuff like we had a

Information Gain stuff like we had a Information Gain stuff like we had a really good article we still there still

really good article we still there still really good article we still there still there on a product review template for

there on a product review template for there on a product review template for how to write a product review and that's how to write a product review and that's how to write a product review and that's 3,500 words it took me 3 days to write

3,500 words it took me 3 days to write 3,500 words it took me 3 days to write that and it's really unique information

that and it's really unique information that and it's really unique information but that didn't rank as well as it

but that didn't rank as well as it but that didn't rank as well as it should do because it we were it was when

should do because it we were it was when should do because it we were it was when you have a too low average quality score

you have a too low average quality score you have a too low average quality score over a website wise or and it's too

over a website wise or and it's too over a website wise or and it's too diluted you just will never get like un

diluted you just will never get like un diluted you just will never get like un like it's like having a stone on your like it's like having a stone on your like it's like having a stone on your head like you like it's like crushing head like you like it's like crushing head like you like it's like crushing weight and so you need to free that up weight and so you need to free that up weight and so you need to free that up in some cases and and let those like

in some cases and and let those like in some cases and and let those like actual human written ones do their thing

actual human written ones do their thing actual human written ones do their thing which will much better for converion or

which will much better for converion or which will much better for converion or putting people into a lead magnet to putting people into a lead magnet to putting people into a lead magnet to then go through the the sequences then go through the the sequences then go through the the sequences whereas the programmatic was mostly full

whereas the programmatic was mostly full whereas the programmatic was mostly full like Topline brand engagement raw

like Topline brand engagement raw like Topline brand engagement raw numbers that obviously it doesn't numbers that obviously it doesn't numbers that obviously it doesn't convert as high as some other

convert as high as some other convert as high as some other content interesting so given that you've

content interesting so given that you've content interesting so given that you've got a bit more experience now that got a bit more experience now that got a bit more experience now that you're building indoors s what would you

you're building indoors s what would you you're building indoors s what would you keep doing if you were to also keep

keep doing if you were to also keep keep doing if you were to also keep working at lasso or selfish question I

working at lasso or selfish question I working at lasso or selfish question I do this once in a while what would you do this once in a while what would you do this once in a while what would you do in our case as uh as we have like the

do in our case as uh as we have like the do in our case as uh as we have like the affiliate stats component we do have affiliate stats component we do have affiliate stats component we do have affiliate program affiliate program affiliate program we do have some category pages but what

we do have some category pages but what we do have some category pages but what are some things we could do yeah so I

are some things we could do yeah so I are some things we could do yeah so I still own equity in lasso so I'm going

still own equity in lasso so I'm going still own equity in lasso so I'm going to be diplomatic with my answer I

to be diplomatic with my answer I to be diplomatic with my answer I actually genuinely despite like Equity

actually genuinely despite like Equity actually genuinely despite like Equity or no equity think that I would do what

or no equity think that I would do what or no equity think that I would do what they're doing now in that there's just

they're doing now in that there's just they're doing now in that there's just if you see what Levan are talking about

if you see what Levan are talking about if you see what Levan are talking about and assuming that they're not spoofing and assuming that they're not spoofing and assuming that they're not spoofing the revenues there's so much money there

the revenues there's so much money there the revenues there's so much money there that I think they should continue doing

that I think they should continue doing that I think they should continue doing what they're doing um even a small

what they're doing um even a small what they're doing um even a small portion of that is valuable that the

portion of that is valuable that the portion of that is valuable that the Amazon affiliate network is as long ason

Amazon affiliate network is as long ason Amazon affiliate network is as long ason don't come and decide that they want to don't come and decide that they want to don't come and decide that they want to be the only player in town it it looks

be the only player in town it it looks be the only player in town it it looks to be incredibly lucrative right now and

to be incredibly lucrative right now and to be incredibly lucrative right now and I'd be playing in the Creator game that

I'd be playing in the Creator game that I'd be playing in the Creator game that they're trying to play in that makes

they're trying to play in that makes they're trying to play in that makes sense and so you I think acquired answer

sense and so you I think acquired answer sense and so you I think acquired answer Socrates or Socrates I've read about

Socrates or Socrates I've read about Socrates or Socrates I've read about this but I don't know what the tool does

this but I don't know what the tool does this but I don't know what the tool does I've seen it a couple times before what

I've seen it a couple times before what I've seen it a couple times before what is that tool because I ge out on SEO

is that tool because I ge out on SEO is that tool because I ge out on SEO tools all the tools all the tools all the time yes we I used to use it all the

time yes we I used to use it all the time yes we I used to use it all the time back in like 2022 before some of

time back in like 2022 before some of time back in like 2022 before some of the other tools got more advanced than the other tools got more advanced than the other tools got more advanced than before answer Socrates the the original

before answer Socrates the the original before answer Socrates the the original version was neglected because it was

version was neglected because it was version was neglected because it was just a really good way of finding new

just a really good way of finding new just a really good way of finding new questions that if you have an existing

questions that if you have an existing questions that if you have an existing blog post or you're doing a Content

blog post or you're doing a Content blog post or you're doing a Content brief of servicing information that you

brief of servicing information that you brief of servicing information that you might not have originally like thought

might not have originally like thought might not have originally like thought of or H2 topics or FAQs or anything else

of or H2 topics or FAQs or anything else of or H2 topics or FAQs or anything else like that back in the day when like like that back in the day when like like that back in the day when like informational posts were like good and

informational posts were like good and informational posts were like good and they weren't like getting eaten up by Ai

they weren't like getting eaten up by Ai they weren't like getting eaten up by Ai and they were a good source of n site and they were a good source of n site and they were a good source of n site traffic display ads and stuff more now

traffic display ads and stuff more now traffic display ads and stuff more now for user answers obious you now you need for user answers obious you now you need for user answers obious you now you need an e-commerce or SAS brand to be able to

an e-commerce or SAS brand to be able to an e-commerce or SAS brand to be able to create this informational content that

create this informational content that create this informational content that Google still wants to rank to get an AI

Google still wants to rank to get an AI Google still wants to rank to get an AI overview or something like that rather

overview or something like that rather overview or something like that rather than like for like group click like gain

than like for like group click like gain than like for like group click like gain and and stuff like that like it has to and and stuff like that like it has to and and stuff like that like it has to be a zero click mostly strategy now for

be a zero click mostly strategy now for be a zero click mostly strategy now for the informational stuff but yeah it's a

the informational stuff but yeah it's a the informational stuff but yeah it's a great way of like finding new questions

great way of like finding new questions great way of like finding new questions for topics as well as just getting a now

for topics as well as just getting a now for topics as well as just getting a now we've improved it a very quick topical

we've improved it a very quick topical we've improved it a very quick topical map and because you can type in C

map and because you can type in C map and because you can type in C keywords get 500 a th000 keywords

keywords get 500 a th000 keywords keywords get 500 a th000 keywords download the CSV import it into the

download the CSV import it into the download the CSV import it into the keyword clustering feature that we offer

keyword clustering feature that we offer keyword clustering feature that we offer them for free and then get that put into

them for free and then get that put into them for free and then get that put into it like into each cluster for for the

it like into each cluster for for the it like into each cluster for for the main topics I wouldn't say that's the

main topics I wouldn't say that's the main topics I wouldn't say that's the end I don't think you can go I've just

end I don't think you can go I've just end I don't think you can go I've just saved a grand or five grand or whatever

saved a grand or five grand or whatever saved a grand or five grand or whatever you'd pay for a really good topical map

you'd pay for a really good topical map you'd pay for a really good topical map for you know your next 300 articles but

for you know your next 300 articles but for you know your next 300 articles but considering that it's free and it's done

considering that it's free and it's done considering that it's free and it's done in like under a minute I'd say that like

in like under a minute I'd say that like in like under a minute I'd say that like we've changed the game on that front we've changed the game on that front we've changed the game on that front because everyone else will charge you because everyone else will charge you because everyone else will charge you even the software will be you know

even the software will be you know even the software will be you know inaccessible $100 a month for a lot of

inaccessible $100 a month for a lot of inaccessible $100 a month for a lot of this stuff and we made it free and this stuff and we made it free and this stuff and we made it free and democratized it uh and it's actually

democratized it uh and it's actually democratized it uh and it's actually good as well some people have built like good as well some people have built like good as well some people have built like no offense to them because it is really no offense to them because it is really no offense to them because it is really cool but they've built like custom gpts

cool but they've built like custom gpts cool but they've built like custom gpts for clustering it's like cool but like

for clustering it's like cool but like for clustering it's like cool but like it's never going to be as good as like a

it's never going to be as good as like a it's never going to be as good as like a machine learning like python library

machine learning like python library machine learning like python library that can actually detect like eddings

that can actually detect like eddings that can actually detect like eddings compared to a GPT that will just this

compared to a GPT that will just this compared to a GPT that will just this looks like it's just not the same level

looks like it's just not the same level looks like it's just not the same level of interpretation and so we try to do it

of interpretation and so we try to do it of interpretation and so we try to do it the proper way and it's free and anyone

the proper way and it's free and anyone the proper way and it's free and anyone can use it and it's an OG at all and I'm

can use it and it's an OG at all and I'm can use it and it's an OG at all and I'm like happy with it and we're also trying

like happy with it and we're also trying like happy with it and we're also trying to grow like it's ironic because I've

to grow like it's ironic because I've to grow like it's ironic because I've grown affiliate program I've never grown

grown affiliate program I've never grown grown affiliate program I've never grown like viral Loop referral programs and so

like viral Loop referral programs and so like viral Loop referral programs and so I'm learning stuff with this now right

I'm learning stuff with this now right I'm learning stuff with this now right because because because we're trying to build out this part

we're trying to build out this part we're trying to build out this part where if you refer someone else you get

where if you refer someone else you get where if you refer someone else you get a bunch more free credits and stuff like

a bunch more free credits and stuff like a bunch more free credits and stuff like that but then if they then upgrade you

that but then if they then upgrade you that but then if they then upgrade you get the 30% recurring standard SAS stuff

get the 30% recurring standard SAS stuff get the 30% recurring standard SAS stuff but putting them together is I'm like

but putting them together is I'm like but putting them together is I'm like how do I figure this out and how do I how do I figure this out and how do I how do I figure this out and how do I like communicate this simply because one

like communicate this simply because one like communicate this simply because one or the other sounds great but if you or the other sounds great but if you or the other sounds great but if you sound tell people both they're like oh

sound tell people both they're like oh sound tell people both they're like oh this sounds a bit confusing I'm not sure this sounds a bit confusing I'm not sure this sounds a bit confusing I'm not sure I can this and it's interesting because

I can this and it's interesting because I can this and it's interesting because trying to give like the easier incentive

trying to give like the easier incentive trying to give like the easier incentive is like difficult to communicate and is like difficult to communicate and is like difficult to communicate and it's a lesson in doing one thing so well

it's a lesson in doing one thing so well it's a lesson in doing one thing so well that everyone instantly gets it like the that everyone instantly gets it like the that everyone instantly gets it like the prod out Market fit but like an

prod out Market fit but like an prod out Market fit but like an affiliate Market fit almost it's an

affiliate Market fit almost it's an affiliate Market fit almost it's an interesting lesson learned for that yeah

interesting lesson learned for that yeah interesting lesson learned for that yeah it reminds me of our situation which for

it reminds me of our situation which for it reminds me of our situation which for the tool we have like lasso I think is

the tool we have like lasso I think is the tool we have like lasso I think is easy because it's like it's adte it's of

easy because it's like it's adte it's of easy because it's like it's adte it's of course I need these ad widgets but on

course I need these ad widgets but on course I need these ad widgets but on the stat side what I personally think to

the stat side what I personally think to the stat side what I personally think to be true could be wrong is that I think

be true could be wrong is that I think be true could be wrong is that I think Affiliates are problem aware but they're

Affiliates are problem aware but they're Affiliates are problem aware but they're not solution aware if you Google

not solution aware if you Google not solution aware if you Google affiliate stats collector affiliate

affiliate stats collector affiliate affiliate stats collector affiliate stats app all this stuff you're not

stats app all this stuff you're not stats app all this stuff you're not going to find you're not going to find

going to find you're not going to find going to find you're not going to find any of our competitors you're going to

any of our competitors you're going to any of our competitors you're going to find like actually filling network find like actually filling network find like actually filling network software or you're going to find

software or you're going to find software or you're going to find impact.com so it's interesting yeah I I

impact.com so it's interesting yeah I I impact.com so it's interesting yeah I I actually not don't mind doesn't it's not

actually not don't mind doesn't it's not actually not don't mind doesn't it's not I I want to talk about I gaming I know

I I want to talk about I gaming I know I I want to talk about I gaming I know you're not the I gaming expert but what

you're not the I gaming expert but what you're not the I gaming expert but what I'm seeing happen in I gaming space is

I'm seeing happen in I gaming space is I'm seeing happen in I gaming space is that I don't think all affiliate sites

that I don't think all affiliate sites that I don't think all affiliate sites are getting smashed equally I think SAS

are getting smashed equally I think SAS are getting smashed equally I think SAS might be somewhat protected I could be

might be somewhat protected I could be might be somewhat protected I could be wrong but what's your take on SAS

wrong but what's your take on SAS wrong but what's your take on SAS focused affiliate sites and should

focused affiliate sites and should focused affiliate sites and should people be still trying to Pivot away

people be still trying to Pivot away people be still trying to Pivot away from the written content yes I can't

from the written content yes I can't from the written content yes I can't speak for I gaming because I and I was

speak for I gaming because I and I was speak for I gaming because I and I was actually interviewing an i gaming

actually interviewing an i gaming actually interviewing an i gaming affiliate managers to join our team affiliate managers to join our team affiliate managers to join our team because I do and would prefer hiring

because I do and would prefer hiring because I do and would prefer hiring someone with that experience just someone with that experience just someone with that experience just because I think it's the most Cutthroat

because I think it's the most Cutthroat because I think it's the most Cutthroat murderers area it's not that trust me

murderers area it's not that trust me murderers area it's not that trust me about later all right but every time I

about later all right but every time I about later all right but every time I talk to someone who's in the game I'm talk to someone who's in the game I'm talk to someone who's in the game I'm just like yeah that's a killer that I just like yeah that's a killer that I just like yeah that's a killer that I would hire there's no soft and

would hire there's no soft and would hire there's no soft and everyone's got the right mindset for get

everyone's got the right mindset for get everyone's got the right mindset for get traffic in get it done get the kpis here

traffic in get it done get the kpis here traffic in get it done get the kpis here or it could be a bit more oh it wasn't

or it could be a bit more oh it wasn't or it could be a bit more oh it wasn't attributed or whatever on sass like they

attributed or whatever on sass like they attributed or whatever on sass like they get the game like in night game they

get the game like in night game they get the game like in night game they would be better suited for a SAS

would be better suited for a SAS would be better suited for a SAS affiliate program not igaming because I

affiliate program not igaming because I affiliate program not igaming because I gaming to me is about both relationship

gaming to me is about both relationship gaming to me is about both relationship building with the affiliate and then

building with the affiliate and then building with the affiliate and then having this relationship concept going

having this relationship concept going having this relationship concept going how do I get connected with the players

how do I get connected with the players how do I get connected with the players you're you should be focused on

you're you should be focused on you're you should be focused on retention because the revenue share

retention because the revenue share retention because the revenue share component of IG gaming is everything

component of IG gaming is everything component of IG gaming is everything like this is everything for all of them

like this is everything for all of them like this is everything for all of them especially the especially the especially the Affiliates yeah yeah interesting um but

Affiliates yeah yeah interesting um but Affiliates yeah yeah interesting um but regarding the content side so um I can't

regarding the content side so um I can't regarding the content side so um I can't speak for ey gaming but for example when

speak for ey gaming but for example when speak for ey gaming but for example when I do leads list now and I'm scraping all

I do leads list now and I'm scraping all I do leads list now and I'm scraping all of the like uh we so how we do it for

of the like uh we so how we do it for of the like uh we so how we do it for when we're outreaching people for agency

when we're outreaching people for agency when we're outreaching people for agency clients in the SAS space we divide

clients in the SAS space we divide clients in the SAS space we divide everyone into high touch mid- touch and

everyone into high touch mid- touch and everyone into high touch mid- touch and low touch Affiliates based on certain

low touch Affiliates based on certain low touch Affiliates based on certain criteria and the low touch is just the

criteria and the low touch is just the criteria and the low touch is just the entire everyone knows how to do an ATS

entire everyone knows how to do an ATS entire everyone knows how to do an ATS where you find the the affiliate index

where you find the the affiliate index where you find the the affiliate index codes related to whatever software

codes related to whatever software codes related to whatever software they're using whatever Network they're they're using whatever Network they're they're using whatever Network they're using and you can just instantly find a

using and you can just instantly find a using and you can just instantly find a big list big list big list everyone who's promoting sem rush or

everyone who's promoting sem rush or everyone who's promoting sem rush or Surfer SEO or get go high level or

Surfer SEO or get go high level or Surfer SEO or get go high level or whatever easy low touch list done and

whatever easy low touch list done and whatever easy low touch list done and then we do the mid touch and the mid

then we do the mid touch and the mid then we do the mid touch and the mid touch list is the one that's been touch list is the one that's been touch list is the one that's been absolutely torched by hcu because it

absolutely torched by hcu because it absolutely torched by hcu because it involves to Mid touch for us is anyone

involves to Mid touch for us is anyone involves to Mid touch for us is anyone who's ranking for a specific URL that we

who's ranking for a specific URL that we who's ranking for a specific URL that we want to be part of irrespective of

want to be part of irrespective of want to be part of irrespective of traffic we just want that because people

traffic we just want that because people traffic we just want that because people aren't think like we don't get the aren't think like we don't get the aren't think like we don't get the credit for this but we try and only take credit for this but we try and only take credit for this but we try and only take on clients that appreciate this and that

on clients that appreciate this and that on clients that appreciate this and that even if this is not a high traffic even if this is not a high traffic even if this is not a high traffic driving thing this is a screed piece of

driving thing this is a screed piece of driving thing this is a screed piece of llm training data and if you say

llm training data and if you say llm training data and if you say endorser is the best affility software I

endorser is the best affility software I endorser is the best affility software I don't give a if that's linked I

don't give a if that's linked I don't give a if that's linked I don't care if it's got a Rel equal don't care if it's got a Rel equal don't care if it's got a Rel equal sponsored real equals hacks link band I

sponsored real equals hacks link band I sponsored real equals hacks link band I don't care obviously that doesn't exist

don't care obviously that doesn't exist don't care obviously that doesn't exist but I want the most instances of brand

but I want the most instances of brand but I want the most instances of brand mentions and I don't mind if it's unlink

mentions and I don't mind if it's unlink mentions and I don't mind if it's unlink I want to train data to say whatever I

I want to train data to say whatever I I want to train data to say whatever I wanted to say I want to do like

wanted to say I want to do like wanted to say I want to do like effectively affiliate or and so that's

effectively affiliate or and so that's effectively affiliate or and so that's the mid touch list irrespective trffic

the mid touch list irrespective trffic the mid touch list irrespective trffic but the they are like usually the mid-

but the they are like usually the mid- but the they are like usually the mid- touch list is usually what sets you like

touch list is usually what sets you like touch list is usually what sets you like off like like we try not to take on

off like like we try not to take on off like like we try not to take on clients unless just the base affiliate

clients unless just the base affiliate clients unless just the base affiliate Outreach can get us there and then all Outreach can get us there and then all Outreach can get us there and then all the cool Niche little B2B partnership

the cool Niche little B2B partnership the cool Niche little B2B partnership co- marketing newsletter swaps we do are

co- marketing newsletter swaps we do are co- marketing newsletter swaps we do are just like nice like the bits that set us

just like nice like the bits that set us just like nice like the bits that set us apart but not like the bits you need and

apart but not like the bits you need and apart but not like the bits you need and it's getting tougher and tougher to do it's getting tougher and tougher to do it's getting tougher and tougher to do that from written blood content because

that from written blood content because that from written blood content because so few people are ranking and the

so few people are ranking and the so few people are ranking and the remaining ones are so big that they're

remaining ones are so big that they're remaining ones are so big that they're one difficult to get a response from and

one difficult to get a response from and one difficult to get a response from and two even more difficult to do a deal

two even more difficult to do a deal two even more difficult to do a deal with the independent content creator is

with the independent content creator is with the independent content creator is in a tough spot and were the people that

in a tough spot and were the people that in a tough spot and were the people that like sent it home for a lot of affiliate

like sent it home for a lot of affiliate like sent it home for a lot of affiliate programs and so on the wris and side

programs and so on the wris and side programs and so on the wris and side it's difficult we're actively trying to

it's difficult we're actively trying to it's difficult we're actively trying to make sure that we are as not reliant on

make sure that we are as not reliant on make sure that we are as not reliant on SEO driven Affiliates as possible

SEO driven Affiliates as possible SEO driven Affiliates as possible overall just because I think that this

overall just because I think that this overall just because I think that this will continue to Trend in this direction

will continue to Trend in this direction will continue to Trend in this direction and so we're like overhauling how we I

and so we're like overhauling how we I and so we're like overhauling how we I can tell you off camera some crazy

can tell you off camera some crazy can tell you off camera some crazy that's like we're trying to Pivot that's like we're trying to Pivot that's like we're trying to Pivot towards as well that I can't really talk towards as well that I can't really talk towards as well that I can't really talk about here but with the YouTube stuff

about here but with the YouTube stuff about here but with the YouTube stuff getting better at scraping Tik tokers

getting better at scraping Tik tokers getting better at scraping Tik tokers building the networks of people on there

building the networks of people on there building the networks of people on there we're trying to Pioneer some paper

we're trying to Pioneer some paper we're trying to Pioneer some paper impression stuff on LinkedIn and Twitter

impression stuff on LinkedIn and Twitter impression stuff on LinkedIn and Twitter as well where you get paid flat rates

as well where you get paid flat rates as well where you get paid flat rates per impression and you obviously have to

per impression and you obviously have to per impression and you obviously have to monitor that for fraud because there are

monitor that for fraud because there are monitor that for fraud because there are networks of accounts that will just networks of accounts that will just networks of accounts that will just retweet you 100 times and get you 100K

retweet you 100 times and get you 100K retweet you 100 times and get you 100K Impressions but it's complete nonsense

Impressions but it's complete nonsense Impressions but it's complete nonsense and so there's fraud there as well as and so there's fraud there as well as and so there's fraud there as well as LinkedIn doesn't share so you have to LinkedIn doesn't share so you have to LinkedIn doesn't share so you have to che check the HTML and stuff like that che check the HTML and stuff like that che check the HTML and stuff like that but we're trying to um build systems to

but we're trying to um build systems to but we're trying to um build systems to be able to do like paper impression so

be able to do like paper impression so be able to do like paper impression so they draw an influencer you don't have they draw an influencer you don't have they draw an influencer you don't have to put an affiliate link that will kill to put an affiliate link that will kill to put an affiliate link that will kill reach on these platforms and stuff like

reach on these platforms and stuff like reach on these platforms and stuff like that uh to do more like Creator Le stuff

that uh to do more like Creator Le stuff that uh to do more like Creator Le stuff like that but again it doesn't have the like that but again it doesn't have the like that but again it doesn't have the scale and recurring nature of SEO

scale and recurring nature of SEO scale and recurring nature of SEO traffic and so it's so good when it's

traffic and so it's so good when it's traffic and so it's so good when it's good but it's getting really tough to do

good but it's getting really tough to do good but it's getting really tough to do it tough to Pivot away from yeah there's

it tough to Pivot away from yeah there's it tough to Pivot away from yeah there's a lot of interesting ideas what would

a lot of interesting ideas what would a lot of interesting ideas what would you what are some other things you would

you what are some other things you would you what are some other things you would do if you've got a SAS affiliate program

do if you've got a SAS affiliate program do if you've got a SAS affiliate program they're like hey I want to grow my they're like hey I want to grow my they're like hey I want to grow my audience it doesn't matter whether it's

audience it doesn't matter whether it's audience it doesn't matter whether it's us or lass or anyone else there's some

us or lass or anyone else there's some us or lass or anyone else there's some amazing SEO ideas but what would you say

amazing SEO ideas but what would you say amazing SEO ideas but what would you say like how can an affiliate manager be a

like how can an affiliate manager be a like how can an affiliate manager be a bit more proactive and to say hey here's

bit more proactive and to say hey here's bit more proactive and to say hey here's a program here's your log here's your

a program here's your log here's your a program here's your log here's your links go do your

links go do your links go do your work when they're approaching Affiliates

work when they're approaching Affiliates work when they're approaching Affiliates yeah like what I say is we have again

yeah like what I say is we have again yeah like what I say is we have again mid touch is still like Outreach that

mid touch is still like Outreach that mid touch is still like Outreach that will go out through a personalized AI

will go out through a personalized AI will go out through a personalized AI assisted flow that we do whereas the

assisted flow that we do whereas the assisted flow that we do whereas the high touch is we have an actual outy

high touch is we have an actual outy high touch is we have an actual outy specialist that we split away from the specialist that we split away from the specialist that we split away from the affiliate manager whose job is just to

affiliate manager whose job is just to affiliate manager whose job is just to make friends with really important make friends with really important make friends with really important people and that will be differently done

people and that will be differently done people and that will be differently done so if we're talking like mid touch

so if we're talking like mid touch so if we're talking like mid touch personalizations but semi a at it's hey

personalizations but semi a at it's hey personalizations but semi a at it's hey depending on how big the brand is we

depending on how big the brand is we depending on how big the brand is we either go from the founder if they give either go from the founder if they give either go from the founder if they give us permission or we go from just like an

us permission or we go from just like an us permission or we go from just like an endorsed affiliate Partners email that

endorsed affiliate Partners email that endorsed affiliate Partners email that just goes hey uh really love your stuff

just goes hey uh really love your stuff just goes hey uh really love your stuff seen that you promote XYZ would love you

seen that you promote XYZ would love you seen that you promote XYZ would love you to but then if like pretty scalable

to but then if like pretty scalable to but then if like pretty scalable making sure that it's likable as if making sure that it's likable as if making sure that it's likable as if you'd say it to a friend or a colleague

you'd say it to a friend or a colleague you'd say it to a friend or a colleague make sure that it's friendly and and not

make sure that it's friendly and and not make sure that it's friendly and and not annoying and then for the high tou it's

annoying and then for the high tou it's annoying and then for the high tou it's literally just like commenting on their literally just like commenting on their literally just like commenting on their YouTube stuff commenting on LinkedIn

YouTube stuff commenting on LinkedIn YouTube stuff commenting on LinkedIn joining their free communities just

joining their free communities just joining their free communities just being like tweeting about them just be

being like tweeting about them just be being like tweeting about them just be like just being a fan and then building

like just being a fan and then building like just being a fan and then building that relationship yeah it's just being

that relationship yeah it's just being that relationship yeah it's just being chill just be a cool person just hire

chill just be a cool person just hire chill just be a cool person just hire chill people to make friends with all chill people to make friends with all chill people to make friends with all the cool people and then bring them in

the cool people and then bring them in the cool people and then bring them in yeah and the easiest way to get your yeah and the easiest way to get your yeah and the easiest way to get your attention is speak hey you did amazing

attention is speak hey you did amazing attention is speak hey you did amazing work at

work at work at lasso there we go it's wor and now be

lasso there we go it's wor and now be lasso there we go it's wor and now be tweeted about the stat St affiliate

tweeted about the stat St affiliate tweeted about the stat St affiliate program well yeah what's your take like

program well yeah what's your take like program well yeah what's your take like here's my journey of being a SAS founder

here's my journey of being a SAS founder here's my journey of being a SAS founder is I didn't know what I was doing in

is I didn't know what I was doing in is I didn't know what I was doing in terms of getting started I'm like okay

terms of getting started I'm like okay terms of getting started I'm like okay we got a SAS product I thought it was

we got a SAS product I thought it was we got a SAS product I thought it was actually going to sell itself just by actually going to sell itself just by actually going to sell itself just by existing dead wrong we hired someone for

existing dead wrong we hired someone for existing dead wrong we hired someone for sales and didn't really do a good job we

sales and didn't really do a good job we sales and didn't really do a good job we end up spending money no net revenue

end up spending money no net revenue end up spending money no net revenue wasted time the things that I

wasted time the things that I wasted time the things that I experimented with that have worked well experimented with that have worked well experimented with that have worked well for us and maybe they're not scalable is

for us and maybe they're not scalable is for us and maybe they're not scalable is we did a podcast I think that's helped

we did a podcast I think that's helped we did a podcast I think that's helped build trust which has led to sales we

build trust which has led to sales we build trust which has led to sales we have in my opinion in our case I think

have in my opinion in our case I think have in my opinion in our case I think sometimes our buyer journey is a bit sometimes our buyer journey is a bit sometimes our buyer journey is a bit long and I don't know if there's a long and I don't know if there's a long and I don't know if there's a strategy for solving that and Linkedin

strategy for solving that and Linkedin strategy for solving that and Linkedin has actually helped out quite a bit when

has actually helped out quite a bit when has actually helped out quite a bit when we get people signing up the the top

we get people signing up the the top we get people signing up the the top three things are Word of Mouth LinkedIn

three things are Word of Mouth LinkedIn three things are Word of Mouth LinkedIn and and and podcasts nice nice interesting yeah like

podcasts nice nice interesting yeah like podcasts nice nice interesting yeah like the thing yeah they don't scale to like

the thing yeah they don't scale to like the thing yeah they don't scale to like millions of millions so you need to millions of millions so you need to millions of millions so you need to figure out how to what can add like a a

figure out how to what can add like a a figure out how to what can add like a a million a year you're limited stuff like

million a year you're limited stuff like million a year you're limited stuff like that these like ridiculous paid

that these like ridiculous paid that these like ridiculous paid strategies is going to Crunch and crunch

strategies is going to Crunch and crunch strategies is going to Crunch and crunch you every single year really great

you every single year really great you every single year really great affiliate stuff yeah like there's not

affiliate stuff yeah like there's not affiliate stuff yeah like there's not much for like when you talk millions and much for like when you talk millions and much for like when you talk millions and millions you've done really well with millions you've done really well with millions you've done really well with the things that work but they like yeah

the things that work but they like yeah the things that work but they like yeah you just have to do 10 more podcasts

you just have to do 10 more podcasts you just have to do 10 more podcasts every day yeah to to be fair I I've

every day yeah to to be fair I I've every day yeah to to be fair I I've actually been on a few SEO Focus to fill

actually been on a few SEO Focus to fill actually been on a few SEO Focus to fill it podcast as a guest and I've actually

it podcast as a guest and I've actually it podcast as a guest and I've actually had a few signups from that and I was had a few signups from that and I was had a few signups from that and I was shocked I'm like how do I know where I'm

shocked I'm like how do I know where I'm shocked I'm like how do I know where I'm getting more signups and I think if we

getting more signups and I think if we getting more signups and I think if we were a SAS product that was more focused

were a SAS product that was more focused were a SAS product that was more focused on everything in affiliate marketing

on everything in affiliate marketing on everything in affiliate marketing rather than just currently we're I

rather than just currently we're I rather than just currently we're I gaming we're planning to expand out but

gaming we're planning to expand out but gaming we're planning to expand out but I think if we were a bit more focused on

I think if we were a bit more focused on I think if we were a bit more focused on everything I would easily Target like

everything I would easily Target like everything I would easily Target like who's the who in affiliate marketing in

who's the who in affiliate marketing in who's the who in affiliate marketing in podcast I think that would be more

podcast I think that would be more podcast I think that would be more fruitful to to at least be let me do

fruitful to to at least be let me do fruitful to to at least be let me do guessing it's a good strategy to do that

guessing it's a good strategy to do that guessing it's a good strategy to do that anyway in my opinion I would recommend anyway in my opinion I would recommend anyway in my opinion I would recommend you do it now preemptively just because

you do it now preemptively just because you do it now preemptively just because a lot of people the Stars normal go into

a lot of people the Stars normal go into a lot of people the Stars normal go into I gaming and then they'll know you and I gaming and then they'll know you and I gaming and then they'll know you and they'll Champion you inside the they'll Champion you inside the they'll Champion you inside the organization they work for and you just

organization they work for and you just organization they work for and you just want to be reference at the front of want to be reference at the front of want to be reference at the front of people's minds so that someone else who

people's minds so that someone else who people's minds so that someone else who finds someone else who might be in the finds someone else who might be in the finds someone else who might be in the news then tells them like there's so

news then tells them like there's so news then tells them like there's so much like like non in tangibles with

much like like non in tangibles with much like like non in tangibles with this stuff like even I do random ones

this stuff like even I do random ones this stuff like even I do random ones sometimes and they someone will come up

sometimes and they someone will come up sometimes and they someone will come up and it'll be like an amazing opportunity

and it'll be like an amazing opportunity and it'll be like an amazing opportunity from something that didn't even seem from something that didn't even seem from something that didn't even seem relevant and much less relevant than

relevant and much less relevant than relevant and much less relevant than like affiliate into like a gaming

like affiliate into like a gaming like affiliate into like a gaming affiliate and so I reckon it's worth

affiliate and so I reckon it's worth affiliate and so I reckon it's worth preemptively doing those if I would you

preemptively doing those if I would you preemptively doing those if I would you on a personal brand I would recommend

on a personal brand I would recommend on a personal brand I would recommend still doing that I know it's a lot of still doing that I know it's a lot of still doing that I know it's a lot of time and you got to get over the I I I

time and you got to get over the I I I time and you got to get over the I I I feel the same way but I honestly I've

feel the same way but I honestly I've feel the same way but I honestly I've seen so much benefit I recommend it

seen so much benefit I recommend it seen so much benefit I recommend it because I think it just goes really well because I think it just goes really well because I think it just goes really well when they hit and when that like right

when they hit and when that like right when they hit and when that like right person goes even if they get like 100 person goes even if they get like 100 person goes even if they get like 100 views like two of those people are worth

views like two of those people are worth views like two of those people are worth like 100 Grand a year yeah I agree like

like 100 Grand a year yeah I agree like like 100 Grand a year yeah I agree like I said I've experienced it firsthand and

I said I've experienced it firsthand and I said I've experienced it firsthand and I don't really I asked a lot of seos I

I don't really I asked a lot of seos I I don't really I asked a lot of seos I said do you get some videos that maybe

said do you get some videos that maybe said do you get some videos that maybe have 50 views but what's behind it and

have 50 views but what's behind it and have 50 views but what's behind it and sometimes they say sometimes my best sometimes they say sometimes my best sometimes they say sometimes my best deals come from those tiny videos that

deals come from those tiny videos that deals come from those tiny videos that people just disregard and think oh this

people just disregard and think oh this people just disregard and think oh this person's wasting their time on YouTube

person's wasting their time on YouTube person's wasting their time on YouTube and it's the opposite yeah yeah yeah

and it's the opposite yeah yeah yeah and it's the opposite yeah yeah yeah people I think that's B metric as long

people I think that's B metric as long people I think that's B metric as long as you're in the front of the right as you're in the front of the right as you're in the front of the right people and there's also like the thing I

people and there's also like the thing I people and there's also like the thing I always tell like the marketing team is

always tell like the marketing team is always tell like the marketing team is think about devotion per page view which

think about devotion per page view which think about devotion per page view which is why like I'll never buy a paid ad to

is why like I'll never buy a paid ad to is why like I'll never buy a paid ad to a landing page for aess I might do it

a landing page for aess I might do it a landing page for aess I might do it for e-commerce cuz you know you put for e-commerce cuz you know you put for e-commerce cuz you know you put money in you get money out it money in you get money out it money in you get money out it whatever no cares but for this stuff

whatever no cares but for this stuff whatever no cares but for this stuff where it's like brand building stuff

where it's like brand building stuff where it's like brand building stuff like I will never buy an I refuse like

like I will never buy an I refuse like like I will never buy an I refuse like morally or like like philosophically

morally or like like philosophically morally or like like philosophically because it doesn't give you devotion and

because it doesn't give you devotion and because it doesn't give you devotion and I'm not trying to buy customs I'm trying I'm not trying to buy customs I'm trying I'm not trying to buy customs I'm trying to buy like utter cult-like devotion and

to buy like utter cult-like devotion and to buy like utter cult-like devotion and so I'll only ever buy an ad to like a

so I'll only ever buy an ad to like a so I'll only ever buy an ad to like a lead magnet that will make you

lead magnet that will make you lead magnet that will make you absolutely fall in romantic love with

absolutely fall in romantic love with absolutely fall in romantic love with the Brad and and and the podcast are the

the Brad and and and the podcast are the the Brad and and and the podcast are the same way you if you do not like the

same way you if you do not like the same way you if you do not like the level of FaceTime to get to the level of

level of FaceTime to get to the level of level of FaceTime to get to the level of reading a blog post at top of funnel is

reading a blog post at top of funnel is reading a blog post at top of funnel is like 100x people think it's like you

like 100x people think it's like you like 100x people think it's like you three times allly it's exponential and

three times allly it's exponential and three times allly it's exponential and everything in this stuff with and same

everything in this stuff with and same everything in this stuff with and same reason we started a community like the

reason we started a community like the reason we started a community like the like page viws are going to get harder like page viws are going to get harder like page viws are going to get harder and harder to drive impressions are and harder to drive impressions are and harder to drive impressions are going to get more and more fickle but if

going to get more and more fickle but if going to get more and more fickle but if you like are within an orbit like that

you like are within an orbit like that you like are within an orbit like that is you don't like that is the highest

is you don't like that is the highest is you don't like that is the highest level of like devotion and engagement

level of like devotion and engagement level of like devotion and engagement and you have and podcast is so Central

and you have and podcast is so Central and you have and podcast is so Central to that as well and most people just

to that as well and most people just to that as well and most people just think about real numbers rather than think about real numbers rather than think about real numbers rather than like how much devotion did that buy that

like how much devotion did that buy that like how much devotion did that buy that intangible like ether that you can get

intangible like ether that you can get intangible like ether that you can get from that level of contact with someone

from that level of contact with someone from that level of contact with someone and I think those things are almost

and I think those things are almost and I think those things are almost difficult to measure and it makes me

difficult to measure and it makes me difficult to measure and it makes me think about not just igaming but other

think about not just igaming but other think about not just igaming but other Industries where it's almost like a pay

Industries where it's almost like a pay Industries where it's almost like a pay to play now it's not quite the case I

to play now it's not quite the case I to play now it's not quite the case I think the world of sales and marketing

think the world of sales and marketing think the world of sales and marketing today is different and the only reason

today is different and the only reason today is different and the only reason why I know this is because I've done

why I know this is because I've done why I know this is because I've done those things like I've been doing things

those things like I've been doing things those things like I've been doing things where it's like all right if I want to where it's like all right if I want to where it's like all right if I want to be a speaker at a conference it's so be a speaker at a conference it's so be a speaker at a conference it's so here's how much you have to pay I'm like

here's how much you have to pay I'm like here's how much you have to pay I'm like what you know and it's if you want to what you know and it's if you want to what you know and it's if you want to attend you got to pay and I'm like okay attend you got to pay and I'm like okay attend you got to pay and I'm like okay is this where the world is going and I

is this where the world is going and I is this where the world is going and I just said screw it like we're a a hustle

just said screw it like we're a a hustle just said screw it like we're a a hustle startup with the minimal budget we did

startup with the minimal budget we did startup with the minimal budget we did do fundraising but I'm like we need $5

do fundraising but I'm like we need $5 do fundraising but I'm like we need $5 to go as long as possible so I did all

to go as long as possible so I did all to go as long as possible so I did all the things that were free podcasting and

the things that were free podcasting and the things that were free podcasting and next wait a minute I've got my own next wait a minute I've got my own next wait a minute I've got my own channel I've got my own audience

channel I've got my own audience channel I've got my own audience LinkedIn 11,000 followers and do you

LinkedIn 11,000 followers and do you LinkedIn 11,000 followers and do you think that's one mistake that a lot of

think that's one mistake that a lot of think that's one mistake that a lot of SAS companies make is they think they

SAS companies make is they think they SAS companies make is they think they need to create a a $100,000 budget raise

need to create a a $100,000 budget raise need to create a a $100,000 budget raise money for and just blast through random

money for and just blast through random money for and just blast through random ads and go this is what all my

ads and go this is what all my ads and go this is what all my competition does

competition does competition does I think it fors on both sides so I think

I think it fors on both sides so I think I think it fors on both sides so I think you hang out with different people that you hang out with different people that you hang out with different people that I hang out with because I've been like

I hang out with because I've been like I hang out with because I've been like like in barley the last few months with

like in barley the last few months with like in barley the last few months with the Indie hacker meetups and they're all

the Indie hacker meetups and they're all the Indie hacker meetups and they're all really technically brilliant and they're

really technically brilliant and they're really technically brilliant and they're absolutely phobic of marketing and I

absolutely phobic of marketing and I absolutely phobic of marketing and I just tell them do something like just tell them do something like just tell them do something like anything like spend do the pay dads

anything like spend do the pay dads anything like spend do the pay dads whereas I presume you're hanging out whereas I presume you're hanging out whereas I presume you're hanging out with more balanced Founders that are

with more balanced Founders that are with more balanced Founders that are like launch a paid but are as a result

like launch a paid but are as a result like launch a paid but are as a result not as I guess sensible with making a

not as I guess sensible with making a not as I guess sensible with making a dollar go as far as possible in the same

dollar go as far as possible in the same dollar go as far as possible in the same sort of way and so I think there a happy

sort of way and so I think there a happy sort of way and so I think there a happy balance of doing marketing committing to

balance of doing marketing committing to balance of doing marketing committing to doing this stuff and and then also doing

doing this stuff and and then also doing doing this stuff and and then also doing one thing long enough to fail it one thing long enough to fail it one thing long enough to fail it properly because the biggest thing I properly because the biggest thing I properly because the biggest thing I think I see with sa is oh that didn't

think I see with sa is oh that didn't think I see with sa is oh that didn't work that didn't work how did you do

work that didn't work how did you do work that didn't work how did you do every single bit of it actually so you every single bit of it actually so you every single bit of it actually so you didn't get like a false negative when it didn't get like a false negative when it didn't get like a false negative when it could have got you another 100K AR if

could have got you another 100K AR if could have got you another 100K AR if done correct and I'm guilty of that as

done correct and I'm guilty of that as done correct and I'm guilty of that as well like I'm only just like I think

well like I'm only just like I think well like I'm only just like I think recently getting to the stage where like recently getting to the stage where like recently getting to the stage where like I'm able to say no to trying a strategy

I'm able to say no to trying a strategy I'm able to say no to trying a strategy because it sounds fun and exciting to be because it sounds fun and exciting to be because it sounds fun and exciting to be able to go no I'm going to do that lead able to go no I'm going to do that lead able to go no I'm going to do that lead magnet strategy for the next five

magnet strategy for the next five magnet strategy for the next five because this one could work and I'm not

because this one could work and I'm not because this one could work and I'm not going to go like I want to go and spend

going to go like I want to go and spend going to go like I want to go and spend more time somewhere else because I want

more time somewhere else because I want more time somewhere else because I want to see if this can drive way more money

to see if this can drive way more money to see if this can drive way more money per hour invested and so I think that's

per hour invested and so I think that's per hour invested and so I think that's another thing like balancing doing like

another thing like balancing doing like another thing like balancing doing like aggressive marketing and getting value

aggressive marketing and getting value aggressive marketing and getting value but also like just doing

but also like just doing but also like just doing thinking coming up with what you think

thinking coming up with what you think thinking coming up with what you think is going to be the best running through

is going to be the best running through is going to be the best running through the list in a way that is effective and

the list in a way that is effective and the list in a way that is effective and actually maximizes the chance of correct

actually maximizes the chance of correct actually maximizes the chance of correct data so you don't quit before you get to

data so you don't quit before you get to data so you don't quit before you get to what can really work is what is my own

what can really work is what is my own what can really work is what is my own take on the SAS founder marketing thing

take on the SAS founder marketing thing take on the SAS founder marketing thing I I kind of wonder if there's this weird

I I kind of wonder if there's this weird I I kind of wonder if there's this weird balance between bootstrap versus

balance between bootstrap versus balance between bootstrap versus fundraise so we're both we bootstrap to

fundraise so we're both we bootstrap to fundraise so we're both we bootstrap to get started then we fundraise to step on

get started then we fundraise to step on get started then we fundraise to step on the gas and if I had to do it all over

the gas and if I had to do it all over the gas and if I had to do it all over again I would focus more on a bootstrap

again I would focus more on a bootstrap again I would focus more on a bootstrap mentality because I think with mentality because I think with mentality because I think with bootstrapping you get creative with

bootstrapping you get creative with bootstrapping you get creative with marketing you basically go how do I do Z

marketing you basically go how do I do Z marketing you basically go how do I do Z marketing you actually get more focused

marketing you actually get more focused marketing you actually get more focused on maybe results but I just think with

on maybe results but I just think with on maybe results but I just think with companies that actually fundraise they

companies that actually fundraise they companies that actually fundraise they have this mentality of I I just got to

have this mentality of I I just got to have this mentality of I I just got to spend my way out of success and I think

spend my way out of success and I think spend my way out of success and I think it I think with the way marketing is it I think with the way marketing is it I think with the way marketing is today it's just we're in a different

today it's just we're in a different today it's just we're in a different space yeah so we have not taken any

space yeah so we have not taken any space yeah so we have not taken any funding and so I can only speak from

funding and so I can only speak from funding and so I can only speak from that position and I don't ever I've

that position and I don't ever I've that position and I don't ever I've never worked in a business where we just

never worked in a business where we just never worked in a business where we just had loads of budget like you had loads of budget like you had loads of budget like you complemented the SEO strategy but it was

complemented the SEO strategy but it was complemented the SEO strategy but it was born out of necessity not because we had

born out of necessity not because we had born out of necessity not because we had massive budgets it's just because it was massive budgets it's just because it was massive budgets it's just because it was the way to get free traffic without

the way to get free traffic without the way to get free traffic without spending on advertisement to get the

spending on advertisement to get the spending on advertisement to get the same of page fees it's actually like

same of page fees it's actually like same of page fees it's actually like it's I get the difference when you're

it's I get the difference when you're it's I get the difference when you're building something that you

building something that you building something that you own near to 100% of and it's all yours

own near to 100% of and it's all yours own near to 100% of and it's all yours and so it's easy oh I'm going to do this

and so it's easy oh I'm going to do this and so it's easy oh I'm going to do this but then it doesn't work that's all but then it doesn't work that's all but then it doesn't work that's all that's like that there's a level of like

that's like that there's a level of like that's like that there's a level of like emotional connection when it's your emotional connection when it's your emotional connection when it's your money on the line that like that comes

money on the line that like that comes money on the line that like that comes differently and I'll be honest we lose

differently and I'll be honest we lose differently and I'll be honest we lose like low to mid five figures a month on

like low to mid five figures a month on like low to mid five figures a month on on the development at the moment and

on the development at the moment and on the development at the moment and that is like a thing to think about I

that is like a thing to think about I that is like a thing to think about I lost 30 grand that month but it comes

lost 30 grand that month but it comes lost 30 grand that month but it comes from like a

from like a from like a a tam future expectation and and a

a tam future expectation and and a a tam future expectation and and a willingness to to commit that risk but

willingness to to commit that risk but willingness to to commit that risk but it does absolutely make you like coales

it does absolutely make you like coales it does absolutely make you like coales around like this marketing has to go

around like this marketing has to go around like this marketing has to go into the right places and has to be

into the right places and has to be into the right places and has to be stress tested correctly because it just

stress tested correctly because it just stress tested correctly because it just hits differently when it's not other hits differently when it's not other hits differently when it's not other people's money right it's it's like a

people's money right it's it's like a people's money right it's it's like a weird respect for money if that makes

weird respect for money if that makes weird respect for money if that makes sense yeah it was it's still scary but

sense yeah it was it's still scary but sense yeah it was it's still scary but like I I choose to do it because it's like I I choose to do it because it's like I I choose to do it because it's like what I think is the best and I want like what I think is the best and I want like what I think is the best and I want to get ridiculously rich and you have to to get ridiculously rich and you have to to get ridiculously rich and you have to put it on the line to get rich and is

put it on the line to get rich and is put it on the line to get rich and is what it is but

what it is but what it is but it definitely gives the the the respect

it definitely gives the the the respect it definitely gives the the the respect and different perspective on it and I

and different perspective on it and I and different perspective on it and I think even if you're funded you should

think even if you're funded you should think even if you're funded you should have that because so many people just

have that because so many people just have that because so many people just doing it for funding sake and just

doing it for funding sake and just doing it for funding sake and just spending money just to get $60 per 60

spending money just to get $60 per 60 spending money just to get $60 per 60 Cent per dollar back on ad spend just to

Cent per dollar back on ad spend just to Cent per dollar back on ad spend just to show revenue and that to me is the most

show revenue and that to me is the most show revenue and that to me is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my

ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life congratulations you just burned

life congratulations you just burned life congratulations you just burned value like in order to show something

value like in order to show something value like in order to show something and I just I that's why I never like I

and I just I that's why I never like I and I just I that's why I never like I invest in VC funds as an LP to get

invest in VC funds as an LP to get invest in VC funds as an LP to get access to the network but I'll never access to the network but I'll never access to the network but I'll never take VC money because I'm just like this

take VC money because I'm just like this take VC money because I'm just like this is just the most inefficient way of

is just the most inefficient way of is just the most inefficient way of deciding where you're going to go and

deciding where you're going to go and deciding where you're going to go and and not even to mention some of the

and not even to mention some of the and not even to mention some of the contracts and what are in there for

contracts and what are in there for contracts and what are in there for preferences I I won't comment on

preferences I I won't comment on preferences I I won't comment on that it's not your company anymore even

that it's not your company anymore even that it's not your company anymore even if you earn 60% after the first phade

if you earn 60% after the first phade if you earn 60% after the first phade yeah I've seen that so that's another

yeah I've seen that so that's another yeah I've seen that so that's another discussion what did I want to talk about

discussion what did I want to talk about discussion what did I want to talk about Community you mentioned Community uh

Community you mentioned Community uh Community you mentioned Community uh what do you think about Community as a

what do you think about Community as a what do you think about Community as a whole is this something that I think you

whole is this something that I think you whole is this something that I think you if you're going to do it you have to if you're going to do it you have to if you're going to do it you have to grow organically but would you advocate

grow organically but would you advocate grow organically but would you advocate for companies say build your own kind of

for companies say build your own kind of for companies say build your own kind of community

community community mode yeah very good question so what we

mode yeah very good question so what we mode yeah very good question so what we actually did is not that but I do

actually did is not that but I do actually did is not that but I do recommend that people do that we me and

recommend that people do that we me and recommend that people do that we me and I think James oliv has been on this yes

I think James oliv has been on this yes I think James oliv has been on this yes absolutely built a SEO focused affiliate

absolutely built a SEO focused affiliate absolutely built a SEO focused affiliate and SAS tilting and agency tilting

and SAS tilting and agency tilting and SAS tilting and agency tilting elements within that but like mostly SEO

elements within that but like mostly SEO elements within that but like mostly SEO orbit uh Community called the conversion

orbit uh Community called the conversion orbit uh Community called the conversion Collective and just because we it was

Collective and just because we it was Collective and just because we it was really annoying after hcu everyone had

really annoying after hcu everyone had really annoying after hcu everyone had an opinion but no one had any data and an opinion but no one had any data and an opinion but no one had any data and so I wanted to get into a community with so I wanted to get into a community with so I wanted to get into a community with people that were actually testing stuff people that were actually testing stuff people that were actually testing stuff I want to I based on one page I think

I want to I based on one page I think I want to I based on one page I think it's this you have anything more it's this you have anything more it's this you have anything more empirical here and started this private

empirical here and started this private empirical here and started this private community and then after we which is

community and then after we which is community and then after we which is great again for the like the devotion

great again for the like the devotion great again for the like the devotion per page view in that like you have real

per page view in that like you have real per page view in that like you have real vetted people that like are the best

vetted people that like are the best vetted people that like are the best network to have and it's been great for

network to have and it's been great for network to have and it's been great for that sort of stuff as well as I'm

that sort of stuff as well as I'm that sort of stuff as well as I'm learning from people who are in there learning from people who are in there learning from people who are in there who are really high level as well but I

who are really high level as well but I who are really high level as well but I would do it differently for a SAS than

would do it differently for a SAS than would do it differently for a SAS than starting your own if you're doing your starting your own if you're doing your starting your own if you're doing your own one it's for your own pure business own one it's for your own pure business own one it's for your own pure business goals and the great thing about an goals and the great thing about an goals and the great thing about an Socrates is it's a great Le gen funnel

Socrates is it's a great Le gen funnel Socrates is it's a great Le gen funnel into the community because it's you want

into the community because it's you want into the community because it's you want to learn more come here like it's a lead

to learn more come here like it's a lead to learn more come here like it's a lead gen machine that thing like absolutely

gen machine that thing like absolutely gen machine that thing like absolutely like it's got 40,000 emails in three

like it's got 40,000 emails in three like it's got 40,000 emails in three months on answer so season so I'm pretty

months on answer so season so I'm pretty months on answer so season so I'm pretty happy with how that went yeah a quarter

happy with how that went yeah a quarter happy with how that went yeah a quarter of a mill this in 2025 off that one for

of a mill this in 2025 off that one for of a mill this in 2025 off that one for like just emails just the seos in and

like just emails just the seos in and like just emails just the seos in and similar space but with the community how

similar space but with the community how similar space but with the community how I would do it for different for SAS I I would do it for different for SAS I I would do it for different for SAS I think there's really good example Sasha think there's really good example Sasha think there's really good example Sasha forier who runs J finder is an example

forier who runs J finder is an example forier who runs J finder is an example of someone who I think has done it of someone who I think has done it of someone who I think has done it really well so he's it's a digital PR

really well so he's it's a digital PR really well so he's it's a digital PR SAS and he has a circle so Community

SAS and he has a circle so Community SAS and he has a circle so Community which is the best community software in which is the best community software in which is the best community software in my opinion is better than school and all my opinion is better than school and all my opinion is better than school and all the other ones everyone should use the other ones everyone should use the other ones everyone should use circle in my opinion obviously don't own

circle in my opinion obviously don't own circle in my opinion obviously don't own it we chose it and it is the best and it

it we chose it and it is the best and it it we chose it and it is the best and it is just for customers to go in and talk

is just for customers to go in and talk is just for customers to go in and talk about digital now for us if if no one

about digital now for us if if no one about digital now for us if if no one posts in the community for a couple days posts in the community for a couple days posts in the community for a couple days we get stressed oh this looks like we get stressed oh this looks like we get stressed oh this looks like there's no momentum and communities are there's no momentum and communities are there's no momentum and communities are fair momentum based you got to if people

fair momentum based you got to if people fair momentum based you got to if people disengaged that encourages other people disengaged that encourages other people disengaged that encourages other people to disengage there's a whole another to disengage there's a whole another to disengage there's a whole another pressure when people are paying and pressure when people are paying and pressure when people are paying and truly we can do a better job than we've truly we can do a better job than we've truly we can do a better job than we've done for that to be honest but for him

done for that to be honest but for him done for that to be honest but for him when there a SAS thing and everyone's when there a SAS thing and everyone's when there a SAS thing and everyone's there on just joining and it's a free

there on just joining and it's a free there on just joining and it's a free addition you don't have that same addition you don't have that same addition you don't have that same pressure which means the community can pressure which means the community can pressure which means the community can just organically Thrive and even though

just organically Thrive and even though just organically Thrive and even though there'll only be one or two posts a week

there'll only be one or two posts a week there'll only be one or two posts a week the the there's not like it works really

the the there's not like it works really the the there's not like it works really well because it's high quality well because it's high quality well because it's high quality discussion especially for a SAS that's

discussion especially for a SAS that's discussion especially for a SAS that's priced above $100 a month where like

priced above $100 a month where like priced above $100 a month where like it's serious good customers that are

it's serious good customers that are it's serious good customers that are coming in no time waste is no nonsense

coming in no time waste is no nonsense coming in no time waste is no nonsense like for his case it's just professional

like for his case it's just professional like for his case it's just professional digital PRS refreshing hangout which is

digital PRS refreshing hangout which is digital PRS refreshing hangout which is a pretty exclusive Club because not it

a pretty exclusive Club because not it a pretty exclusive Club because not it hasn't been flooded by anyone who can

hasn't been flooded by anyone who can hasn't been flooded by anyone who can join and has created not something that

join and has created not something that join and has created not something that like is like necessarily like an like is like necessarily like an like is like necessarily like an educational thing for the SAS but it's

educational thing for the SAS but it's educational thing for the SAS but it's just a place of people to hang out with

just a place of people to hang out with just a place of people to hang out with which then builds that Affinity to the

which then builds that Affinity to the which then builds that Affinity to the Sass in return and makes it stickier as

Sass in return and makes it stickier as Sass in return and makes it stickier as a product which is very interesting how a product which is very interesting how a product which is very interesting how that's that's that's developed that is super cool yeah and

developed that is super cool yeah and developed that is super cool yeah and I've heard about the conversion uh group

I've heard about the conversion uh group I've heard about the conversion uh group I think I've seen some ads where it's

I think I've seen some ads where it's I think I've seen some ads where it's starting to pop up everywhere well

starting to pop up everywhere well starting to pop up everywhere well hopefully if it's not in everyone's face

hopefully if it's not in everyone's face hopefully if it's not in everyone's face then we haven't done our job right yeah

then we haven't done our job right yeah then we haven't done our job right yeah awesome so I want to uh finish this with

awesome so I want to uh finish this with awesome so I want to uh finish this with the the question I usually ask all guess

the the question I usually ask all guess the the question I usually ask all guess with is what do you see of the future of with is what do you see of the future of with is what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects

affiliate marketing as it intersects affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence if we're

with business intelligence if we're with business intelligence if we're talking as in like so let's split this

talking as in like so let's split this talking as in like so let's split this up do you mean in terms of like the

up do you mean in terms of like the up do you mean in terms of like the dashboards that the average person has dashboards that the average person has dashboards that the average person has in front of them or in like data that

in front of them or in like data that in front of them or in like data that like you don't have to hand that you

like you don't have to hand that you like you don't have to hand that you want to get access want to get access want to get access to both I want to know that you actually

to both I want to know that you actually to both I want to know that you actually asked a really good question which is

asked a really good question which is asked a really good question which is like a rabbit hole question of um

like a rabbit hole question of um like a rabbit hole question of um dashboards in affiliate marketing I

dashboards in affiliate marketing I dashboards in affiliate marketing I think most of them are broken that's a

think most of them are broken that's a think most of them are broken that's a topic I'm we're guilty of actually have

topic I'm we're guilty of actually have topic I'm we're guilty of actually have uh a not a pleasant dashboard but we're

uh a not a pleasant dashboard but we're uh a not a pleasant dashboard but we're looking to rebuild that and I think most

looking to rebuild that and I think most looking to rebuild that and I think most affiliate marketing companies they're affiliate marketing companies they're affiliate marketing companies they're just copying each other what do the next

just copying each other what do the next just copying each other what do the next five dashboards look like oh we're gonna

five dashboards look like oh we're gonna five dashboards look like oh we're gonna make it our version and it ends up being

make it our version and it ends up being make it our version and it ends up being the same there's no insights that had

the same there's no insights that had the same there's no insights that had come from dashboards knowing that you

come from dashboards knowing that you come from dashboards knowing that you think like this we could talk about that think like this we could talk about that think like this we could talk about that all day I've got some I and like the

all day I've got some I and like the all day I've got some I and like the reason we built this our software was

reason we built this our software was reason we built this our software was because of my ideas for certain things

because of my ideas for certain things because of my ideas for certain things that we haven't been able to build yet

that we haven't been able to build yet that we haven't been able to build yet just cuz it's like real slog and we need

just cuz it's like real slog and we need just cuz it's like real slog and we need to hire more developers to accelerate

to hire more developers to accelerate to hire more developers to accelerate this but I have my own personal opinions

this but I have my own personal opinions this but I have my own personal opinions on this stuff that I wish I could talk on this stuff that I wish I could talk on this stuff that I wish I could talk about that I just don't want to give

about that I just don't want to give about that I just don't want to give away anything that I want to be the away anything that I want to be the away anything that I want to be the first to build but I just do think

first to build but I just do think first to build but I just do think everyone is building like stuff for

everyone is building like stuff for everyone is building like stuff for stuff's sake and the best thing you can

stuff's sake and the best thing you can stuff's sake and the best thing you can delete it the best thing you can do in

delete it the best thing you can do in delete it the best thing you can do in most cases not for you I'm not saying

most cases not for you I'm not saying most cases not for you I'm not saying you like I'm not talk just generally in

you like I'm not talk just generally in you like I'm not talk just generally in most of the software that we use just

most of the software that we use just most of the software that we use just like most of it can be deleted and

like most of it can be deleted and like most of it can be deleted and nothing will be lost it's just I'll tell

nothing will be lost it's just I'll tell nothing will be lost it's just I'll tell you what which software I'm talking

you what which software I'm talking you what which software I'm talking about but we competed with them before

about but we competed with them before about but we competed with them before and we obviously we had secret accounts

and we obviously we had secret accounts and we obviously we had secret accounts in that as you do in any clever not

in that as you do in any clever not in that as you do in any clever not functioning business is is back door it

functioning business is is back door it functioning business is is back door it and it was like this looks amazing it's

and it was like this looks amazing it's and it was like this looks amazing it's pretty it's beautiful it's

pretty it's beautiful it's pretty it's beautiful it's directional and I've not got to find

directional and I've not got to find directional and I've not got to find anything actionable from it yeah and

anything actionable from it yeah and anything actionable from it yeah and that wasn't me sounding biased because

that wasn't me sounding biased because that wasn't me sounding biased because we were like like because I was worried

we were like like because I was worried we were like like because I was worried I was really worried I thought listen

I was really worried I thought listen I was really worried I thought listen they cracked it like we could have they cracked it like we could have they cracked it like we could have struggle here and then by the end of it

struggle here and then by the end of it struggle here and then by the end of it I was like this beautiful but once you I was like this beautiful but once you I was like this beautiful but once you spend half an hour in it like I it

spend half an hour in it like I it spend half an hour in it like I it doesn't get you from A to B and doesn't

doesn't get you from A to B and doesn't doesn't get you from A to B and doesn't make you make more money and like the

make you make more money and like the make you make more money and like the actual big like person that always talks

actual big like person that always talks actual big like person that always talks about you need like your time to wow to

about you need like your time to wow to about you need like your time to wow to be like under 30 seconds they need like

be like under 30 seconds they need like be like under 30 seconds they need like that dopamine hit of like crack cocaine

that dopamine hit of like crack cocaine that dopamine hit of like crack cocaine level oh my God this is going to change

level oh my God this is going to change level oh my God this is going to change my life and if it doesn't do that then

my life and if it doesn't do that then my life and if it doesn't do that then you'll just like like life is built on

you'll just like like life is built on you'll just like like life is built on momentum a moment if you need that so

momentum a moment if you need that so momentum a moment if you need that so then you make it back and then you go

then you make it back and then you go then you make it back and then you go and tell your friends about it and it

and tell your friends about it and it and tell your friends about it and it had that but you also need enough action

had that but you also need enough action had that but you also need enough action bless to like as a I would say it's

bless to like as a I would say it's bless to like as a I would say it's actually not as important to most people

actually not as important to most people actually not as important to most people as the initial like retention of it but

as the initial like retention of it but as the initial like retention of it but like you need enough and to me it didn't

like you need enough and to me it didn't like you need enough and to me it didn't have enough behind the hood that it have enough behind the hood that it have enough behind the hood that it would have got it would it get found it

would have got it would it get found it would have got it would it get found it would get found out and I would assume

would get found out and I would assume would get found out and I would assume that they had retention issues from that they had retention issues from that they had retention issues from there because it if they could have

there because it if they could have there because it if they could have removed most of the products and it removed most of the products and it removed most of the products and it would have been more useful and so

would have been more useful and so would have been more useful and so that's my opinion on some dashboard

that's my opinion on some dashboard that's my opinion on some dashboard regarding to other we talking about Big regarding to other we talking about Big regarding to other we talking about Big Data I think there's a huge thing with

Data I think there's a huge thing with Data I think there's a huge thing with especially with AI like data analysis of

especially with AI like data analysis of especially with AI like data analysis of finding stuff that like right now what

finding stuff that like right now what finding stuff that like right now what we do is we have to go and data to find

we do is we have to go and data to find we do is we have to go and data to find who is sending more clicks to find out

who is sending more clicks to find out who is sending more clicks to find out why who's sending less clicks who's why who's sending less clicks who's why who's sending less clicks who's sending too many conversions to sound a

sending too many conversions to sound a sending too many conversions to sound a bit like that needs investigating per

bit like that needs investigating per bit like that needs investigating per for conversion rate and it's done

for conversion rate and it's done for conversion rate and it's done manually for some of the fraud detection

manually for some of the fraud detection manually for some of the fraud detection could be done but for the most part the

could be done but for the most part the could be done but for the most part the standard affiliate management doubling standard affiliate management doubling standard affiliate management doubling down on what's working and generating down on what's working and generating down on what's working and generating more money still manual I think there's

more money still manual I think there's more money still manual I think there's so much to be done with I don't want to

so much to be done with I don't want to so much to be done with I don't want to talk about it some stuff there that I

talk about it some stuff there that I talk about it some stuff there that I want to do with our software that will

want to do with our software that will want to do with our software that will help with that awesome I'd be happy to

help with that awesome I'd be happy to help with that awesome I'd be happy to share some of the ideas and uh plans we

share some of the ideas and uh plans we share some of the ideas and uh plans we have on our side and um yeah stop that

have on our side and um yeah stop that have on our side and um yeah stop that we go on quite a bit as well yeah I

we go on quite a bit as well yeah I we go on quite a bit as well yeah I think there's a lot of there's a lot of think there's a lot of there's a lot of think there's a lot of there's a lot of spare capacity and I think for the level

spare capacity and I think for the level spare capacity and I think for the level of what out there on average has not

of what out there on average has not of what out there on average has not been done to a high enough level been done to a high enough level been done to a high enough level considering how mature this industry is considering how mature this industry is considering how mature this industry is and how much money is in it yeah there's

and how much money is in it yeah there's and how much money is in it yeah there's way too much and my personal belief is I

way too much and my personal belief is I way too much and my personal belief is I think everywhere you look there's an think everywhere you look there's an think everywhere you look there's an ability to optimize everything like you

ability to optimize everything like you ability to optimize everything like you can optimize a landing page on the

can optimize a landing page on the can optimize a landing page on the affiliate side there's a lot of broken affiliate side there's a lot of broken affiliate side there's a lot of broken links that exist out there as space jump

links that exist out there as space jump links that exist out there as space jump there's a lot of offers that are just

there's a lot of offers that are just there's a lot of offers that are just wrong and expired look at all the the

wrong and expired look at all the the wrong and expired look at all the the different SEO courses that are just different SEO courses that are just different SEO courses that are just shutting down because of SEO content

shutting down because of SEO content shutting down because of SEO content sites all these links are going to dead

sites all these links are going to dead sites all these links are going to dead spaces yeah lot of Revenue

spaces yeah lot of Revenue spaces yeah lot of Revenue Le Jamie thank you so much for doing

Le Jamie thank you so much for doing Le Jamie thank you so much for doing this I want to pass it back to ask how

this I want to pass it back to ask how this I want to pass it back to ask how people can get a hold of you yeah I go

people can get a hold of you yeah I go people can get a hold of you yeah I go by Jamie if it's not my real name but if

by Jamie if it's not my real name but if by Jamie if it's not my real name but if was the initials of the sep company that

was the initials of the sep company that was the initials of the sep company that I tried to start and failed and so I I tried to start and failed and so I I tried to start and failed and so I decided that no matter how successful I

decided that no matter how successful I decided that no matter how successful I get I would never leave that and I would

get I would never leave that and I would get I would never leave that and I would return to it so I decided to tattoo it

return to it so I decided to tattoo it return to it so I decided to tattoo it on my name and brain and do that and so

on my name and brain and do that and so on my name and brain and do that and so that's why I don't go by my real net I

that's why I don't go by my real net I that's why I don't go by my real net I am jamore if on Twitter my website that

am jamore if on Twitter my website that am jamore if on Twitter my website that I blog on is called increasing. comom

I blog on is called increasing. comom I blog on is called increasing. comom you can go to increasing. comom nwet if

you can go to increasing. comom nwet if you can go to increasing. comom nwet if you want to hear my weekly rambling

you want to hear my weekly rambling you want to hear my weekly rambling takes I also founded a software company

takes I also founded a software company takes I also founded a software company called indors le.com which is a free

called indors le.com which is a free called indors le.com which is a free affiliate software if you are a SAS

affiliate software if you are a SAS affiliate software if you are a SAS company looking to grow your SAS

company looking to grow your SAS company looking to grow your SAS affiliate program recruit track and and

affiliate program recruit track and and affiliate program recruit track and and pay Affiliates more is coming it's free

pay Affiliates more is coming it's free pay Affiliates more is coming it's free up until $220,000 a month in affiliate

up until $220,000 a month in affiliate up until $220,000 a month in affiliate revenue and so if you aren't at that

revenue and so if you aren't at that revenue and so if you aren't at that stage yet you'll save yourself about stage yet you'll save yourself about stage yet you'll save yourself about $100 a month if you do that versus using

$100 a month if you do that versus using $100 a month if you do that versus using the Alternatives brilliant that will be

the Alternatives brilliant that will be the Alternatives brilliant that will be in the show notes thank you so much for

in the show notes thank you so much for in the show notes thank you so much for doing this thank you so much cheers

John thank you for tuning in to the John thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take

affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

this time to ask for a small favor to this time to ask for a small favor to leave a Reading and Review wherever you

leave a Reading and Review wherever you leave a Reading and Review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us

listen to your podcast that helps us listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in

expand our reach to rank higher in expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more

podcast directories and reach more podcast directories and reach more listeners