Conversion Rate Optimization in Affiliate Marketing with Oliver Kenyon

I think affiliate marketing and lead generation are two huge markets that are very untapped when it comes to cro uh and I say this from someone who who runs a large C agency we primary focus on Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just knows that above a certain volume you should be doing tests because more tests will lose than win but those winning tests on large volume of data can cover the losses of the of the losing test and they can be like literally life-changing

game changing for your business but I I feel like affiliate marketing think it's hugely hugely untapped in the affiliate space for sure I'm John R and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by statr welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today I'm very happy to speak with Oliver Kenyan he is the co-founder of conversion wise which is an agency specialing in conversion rate optimization and he's also the founder of affiliate fix which is one of the largest affiliate

for forums um Oliver welcome to the show thank you so much for having me I'm excited to be here all right let's go to the very beginning of how you got started in affiliate marketing I want to hear your story I love telling the story because if I told you it was uh Eminem and Hip Hop that got me into affiliate marketing would you believe me possibly not but uh that's that's the truth so um I was I was actually a a full-time Chef so I

went to college so I did my chefing kind of degree and I was a full-time chef but on the side I was always obsessed with uh hip-hop I loved hip-hop and rap and it the days of kind of eight eight mile and Eminem When the film came out rap battles and it kind of is what really brought me to the online space um as like a passion like I just used to love going on all the back in the day all the forums and the communities

that basically discussed all hip hop rap battles Etc and uh yeah I was obsessed with like Eminem and all that good stuff and through communities as we kind of now know this is before the days of like Facebook groups and Discord and all that kind of good stuff stuff um it it was still functioning the same like communities were all about networking and meeting people and I was lucky enough to meet a guy in Wales I'm from the UK um who basically showed me uh what

affiliate marketing was it was back in a day of kind of CBA marketing so cost by action marketing um incentivized marketing uh and he was making some good money using kind of like gateways and this is going to show how kind of long I've been in the space but this was when like you could get like any likes on Facebook pages uh You' then run like viral scripts uh around kind of clickbait videos and people would have to fill in the gateways and you get paid

uh every time someone field in the Gateway so me and him ran this kind of a co- project I think it was like around the Euros or the World Cup in the football and we basically gave away uh an England shirt sign signed an England shirt that we bought from eBay we gave it away and to enter you had to fill in one of these gateways every time the gate was filled in we'd get money uh and we'd run these kind of viral scripts through it

and um that was my first first kind of introduction to affiliate marketing a side of affiliate marketing mainly CPA um and the issue back then was we had like things like the warrior Forum you had digital Forum a digital point Forum um and several other uh kind of forums but Wicked fire but no one really shared anything it was all kind of very secretive these days we live in a in a generation where like everything is shared like everything is open people just give everything away

for free and that's the way you should be doing marketing but back then it was very secretive so no one was really just discussing how they were making uh money through marketing and the the the amazing thing about this network I joined again it's going to show my age here called CPA Le was it had like a a live chat feature on the on the on the dashboard of the affiliate network but the ingenious thing they did is you could put like forward slash today or

for slash this month or forall time and it would share your earnings within the channel so for cloud everyone was in there every day going like for SL today and it would come up like John has made $6,000 today back then I was like for slash today it was like Oliver has made 50p today like I wasn't earning too much but I I got really fixated like how are these guys earning all this money but no one was sharing it so because I'd been on these

affiliate uh sorry these rap and hip-hop communities I knew exactly what like a forum was um and I always remember I must have been maybe 16 17 at the time was at College doing my chefing I didn't have any money and I sat down with my father and my grandfather and I did the whole kind of like Dragon's Den pitch so like the Shark Tank kind of pitch and I said uh if you give me £140 uh I can I can uh buy a v bulletin

license which was the Forum software I can buy a domain some hosting and I can set up this affiliate Community where we can discuss more openly how people make money through affiliate marketing and uh I always remember my dad and grandfather agreed they in return they were going to get 40% of the business um and believe it or not that was the the beginning of CPA fix which turned to affiliate bit which became the largest affiliate Community online and uh the rest is kind of history

as they say and my dad still to this day reminds me that he owns 40% of that business yeah well good thing he's got a recording of this so if he ever needs to take it a court before no we'll just we'll just beep that out um yeah that's really cool um I think you highlighted something that um if you did that back in the day with with like affiliate fix in those other forums you're right people back then weren't really sharing but people gravitated towards

it Like Pat Flynn where he's like here's my monthly income and it's kind of weird you know building in public is is talked about as if it's a new thing but people still don't really like he was the guy right like back in the day I used to love that monthly drop that he did to like showing that breaking down his income I think it was um what's the hosting uh by that he was like number one affiliate conversion kit was it conversion kit but there

was a blue blue host I think it was one of them he was like doing hundreds of thousands in that yeah I actually I started a YouTube channel back when I had like CPA fix and managed to get a very early on interview with Pat Flynn I watch it now and I literally cringe because it was it was quite funny of the how naive I was but yeah he was like the the kind of going with that back in the day like sharing with his stuff

yeah it's a good thing where I I think people you know why they don't get into videos I think they're worried about their first video being horrible but uh go to listen to Pat Flynn's very first episode and it's like night and day of what he is like now in terms of how professional he is but he doesn't get that good unless he he uh you know puts himself through the meat grinder and does that day one competition absolutely so let's fast forward to conversion rate

optimization it's uh it's one of my favorite topics uh I got first introduced to it by uh at a conference with Tim Ash doing a presentation on cro and he did a live take on of people's websites and I'm like wow I me screw SEO like just double your traffic with cro so how did you stumble into this I mean it's probably through affiliate marketing yeah absolutely so when we launched affiliate fix well it's called CPA fix I kind of bought a few of the code

following from CPA lead over and like I never knew that affiliate fix was going to be the business it turned into the uh I never knew that people were going to join but all of a sudden loads of people just started joining things like they just had somewhere centralized to discuss marketing um and we were really lucky I still uh I'm still very um in debt to this guy to this day but one of our first members was a guy called Tim bird may have heard

of him may not um your audience may have heard him may not he was uh kind of proclaimed as the Godfather of Facebook marketing um and back then before he was sort of really big into Facebook ads he had an affiliate Network PLO and Tim and another old friend of mine BTO glazers who owns CPA tank uh basically came over onto the Forum and asked me if they could put banners on the Forum i what does that even mean and they were like oh like dude

we'll give you some money I was like make money from this like this is just may be somewhere where me and my friends could discuss like trying to make money online all of a sudden Tim and beer are offering me like four or500 a month to serve their banners and I was like this is this is crazy so um I was really luckyy to form a relationship with Tim very very early on and he really loved the Aesthetics of the Forum it looked very nice I

was like I'm not a designer at heart but I love creativity I like things to look nice um and I'd found this designer who designed the Forum um CPA 6 and Tim said can I use your designer and I kind of I guess maybe the entrepreneurial bug has always been in me I don't know I I didn't intro him I said yeah but I'm going to do this as kind of like an Arbitrage thing so I will get the brief from Tim I will send it

to my designer SB SB will be the design I will charge Tim X I will pay s y and make a bit of money on top um and that's kind of how it started as silly as it sounds like we started just building some landing pages for Tim and Tim then uh won a contract with a company called debt.org who are one of the largest lead generation companies in the states um they were very big into like Social Security uh disability benefits etc etc and I

was still a chef still a full-time chef and Tim approached me and said said I will pay you x amount per month I can't remember what it was I think it was like $6,000 which is like more money than I would have ever had in my bank he said I'll pay you like $6,000 per month to generate I think it was like maybe three or four landing pages per week um so I kind of again I was more like an X manager I I kind of

went to S and said right we've got to do this we found a developer uh we started producing these pages to Tim with really good results and I I must admit like I didn't really know too much what I was doing about you know conversion elements and principles and um luckily we had Tim on our side and we used zwo back in the day doing multivariate testing so we quickly got results and I became honestly absolutely fixated with like how some subtle change can make such

a big difference and we started building out these Frameworks like literally building out like this is what a perfect lead gen page looks like we then got into doing multi-step lead gen Pages because the offers were were like asking more questions we then started to introduce advertorials they called pre-sell back in the day so we were then coming obsessed with like what how an advertorial was written and then he just grew from them Tim again Tim has been huge influence on our kind of career but

he then uh started doing some Ecom stuff so very early in the day we started doing Ecom he would introduce you to another person and we were doing all the kind of like Rush my trial pages and all the kind of aggressive affiliate Landers back in the day and honestly it just grew from there the more people we did we then created a business around it people from the the community wanted to utilize it because all Affiliates need landing pages or they're doing host and post

on leg gen or they're selling their own products um and L I was lucky enough to find my co-founder inside the community as well which is just nuts that he joined my CPA fix forum and he actually lives 30 minutes away from me which is just crazy met up with him formed a partnership and uh yeah I think 11 years on we're still good that's crazy uh I'm going to jump right into the cro stuff yeah uh how small of a sample size of Dad do

you need to run a good ab split test to to get those early wins yeah so when it comes to like ongoing C I split CR into two two categories really one is like landing page design so that is like building a landing page around best practices and best Frameworks which we have kind of pioneered over the last 10 years to say like if you put x y and Zed in this order and this layout it should convert better than if you just got a random

good-looking design of 99 designs for example you then have the other side which is when you have a certain amount of volume of data and traffic per month you can start running exactly as you said these kind of ab tests and for those of you who don't know what that is it's literally where you hypothesize that like this would convert better than this use a bit of software that spins 50% of your audience towards version a 50% towards B and you soon find out which one

converts now it's a good question it's a question we get asked a lot it's like what volume of data do you need we suggest that anyone below 50 to 100,000 hits per month sticks to landing page design you can take bigger swings because you haven't got enough data going through uh the test you can afford to take bigger swings bigger changes uh and you can you can you can build something that based on a clay converion framework if you have over 50 to 7,500,000 per month

uh that's when you can kind of unlock AB testing effectively and quickly because basically you need you need at least two weeks to run for a test and the reason that is is because external factors can sometimes um contradict your test for example if on a Monday There's a bit of news about the product that you're selling in the market there's probably going to be more people who are trending going to your pages and buying your product there might be something uh you know external again

that kind of affects it like a sale or uh Prime day or something you know something on that specific Monday May alter your test so you need to let it run two Mondays just so you can kind of counterbalance that and say okay it wasn't just a sluke on that Monday um as far as sample size of volume you'll really looking at around about at least 100,000 hits uh at least kind of yeah sort of 50 to 100, thousand hits but also you need to look

for statistical significance so you can actually become statistic a lot shorter uh time of volume but you need to make sure that it is kind of like that 85 90% up on okay this one is statistically proven to convert better and sometimes you can actually make a bit more of a quicker decision if a test should win you can do AB testing on any volume of of traffic it's just going to take you longer you know to get to that 50 100,000 hits if you're only

doing 20,000 hits per month is going to take five six months whereas if you're doing over that 100,000 hits you can just get statistically significant a lot quicker and then you can make a decision on whether the test one or lost and implement it on your store but I would always run it over two weeks just so you have like two Mondays two Tuesdays two Wednesdays two Wednesdays two Wednesdays two Thursdays and let's assume that we don't have an agency like conversion wise to help us

what sort of tools in the toolbox would you use to run these AB split tests to improve your conversion rate let's say on an affiliate website yeah absolutely so I think you have to educate yourself on um how to create hypothesis uh and and why why um you know effectively all all AB testing is is like guess work it's it's a sort of stab in the dark of this I think this will convert better than this but if you if you have the education on on

um why it should and you you have the education around how to look into analytics how to look into reporting how to install heat maps and and analyze scroll and heat Maps um then I think that's really important so two resources that I think lean that way one that's affordable uh if you don't have budget is our conversion rate Academy not just to plug our stuff but is very good bit less than $50 per month but if you do have um enough money like I think

it's $1,000 then cxls uh course is is bar none probably the best on the market it's fantastic it's goingon to go a lot more into in depth about kind of analytics and uh and kind of reports and how to read them but getting a basic understanding of conversion design is crucial as far as like software to run the tests um there's not obviously now that optimizes sunset Google opiz Sun been sunsetted there's not too many that are like really Mass Market affordable uh however convert.com is

what we use and we find that's a very very good bit fit to kind of run those actual AB tests as well I think understanding while you're running the test instead of just kind of like stabbing in the dark is a very important first step and for all the different types of AB testing you can do or the heat map tools uh what is your guess on the percentage of Affiliates or affiliate programs that actually do conversion rate optimization in my experience minimal I think I

think um affiliate marketing and lead generation are two huge markets that are very untapped when it comes to cro uh and I say this from someone who who runs a large C agency we primarily focus on Ecom I think Ecom gets it Ecom just knows that above a certain volume you should be doing tests because the and and I'm going to say this outright more tests will lose than win but those winning tests on large volume of data can cover the losses of the of the

losing tests and they can be like literally lifechanging gamechanging for your business um but I I feel like affiliate marketing in my experience is a is a little bit more um let's just get out there and and put all pressure on Affiliates as opposed to like taking responsibility of actually does this convert will let the affiliate worry about it so again even if you're using advertisers Pages um or you're allowed to use your own pages I think it's hugely hugely untapped in the affin space for

sure next question I've got is kind of what I believe to be true and I kind of want to see if you agree or would correct me I just believe like you know for all the like the topic of conversion rate optimization for how long it's been around I feel that people gravitate more towards SEO and as if like C's been kind of neglected do you believe that to be true uh I I'm going to go one step further here and I'm going to say that

I think media like paid Media or acquisition traffic is is 100% um Shadows kind of cro I think everyone is fixated you know I'm lucky enough to have spoken on some like this some incredible podcasts and and and some of the biggest kind of affiliate and and events in the world and 90% of the talks are all about acquisition it's about traffic it's about how can we get more people to your site whether that's bya search whether that's bya Facebook Instagram snap it doesn't matter like

it's all about how can we just get cheaper clicks and more people to our site to scale and what gets neglected is actually turning more of those clicks into customers you are sending you are paying for the exact same this is this is a if someone asked me like how do you explain cro to your like Grandma or someone who has no idea what what it is which I have to do a lot by the way my parents do even understand it um I use this

analogy you are paying for 100,000 people to go to a website now you are still paying the exact same amount and the exact same 100,000 people to go to an optimized website now the unoptimized website may make you a thousand sales the exact same amount of people that you paying the exact same amount for go to uh site B that's optimized and then that might make you 3,000 sales so like you'll literally double oping your business just by optimizing traffic that is always going I think

to go back to your search and SEO related question I think it's the same you know if you have a good amount of traffic coming to your website yeah you want to get more of course you do but first and foremost make sure that website is so fine-tuned that let's say the 10,000 of people who are coming through search uh every single month are turning into a thousand customers instead of 500 customers and I think that's that's what that as you said often gets kind of

forgetted and neglected because people just they want to scale with acquisition instead of okay we can actually double our business from the same amount of traffic by focusing on c yeah I I believe this to be true on the affiliate uh program or operator side of business where uh I've got thousands of affiliate accounts and I've never ever ever had one affiliate manager approached me and said John you know the tracking link you're using we have one that converts at two and a half times better

performance would you like to switch it just never happens and I ask these affiliate managers and operators do you know the conversion rate of your of all your tracking links they say yes and then when I ask them the next question would you like an audit they also say yes and it's like you wouldn't say yes to both questions if you really knew what you guys were doing yeah I I think I think it's uh the amount of advertisers or Affiliates that we work with versus

like Ecom on on product owners is is yeah probably 95% in the favor of Ecom so we we do work with the occasion affiliate offer um and there are some people that put value on cro or good good highly performing landing pages when it comes to affiliate marketing but I think that's that's a very you know small sector of the market and I think affiliate marketing in my opinion in my experience and I've been in this industry for a long time is a lot more like

set foret just check it out how quickly can we get a page out how quickly can we get some Affiliates to send some traffic how can we scrub a bit of that that that that that money that's coming in and how can we move on to the next shiny object and get a page out and you know it's it's uh I think you can build a really big sustainable uh business around affiliate marketing if you actually take the time to you know believe in things like

building actually a real good page that's branded and uh is is you know very much white hat but also focuses a lot on kind of c and optimization so yeah I think it's huge down to and how how does conversion rate optimization help and influence search engine search engine optimization it can so definitely can because when it comes to like web design so search is a is a unique beast and and I say that by if you are getting a very good amount of traffic via

search the argument is always okay well we shouldn't really change our website because you know that can affect the the kind of algorithms if you remove text orve around that obviously Google likes and ranks um it can have a negative effect and I don't disagree but what you're doing with uh cro is you're not playing with like especially when you're doing ad testing you're not playing with like a completely different website you're not replacing the back end you're not facing the content layout you are you're

testing individual elements that you know can we get more people from the homepage through to collection page or can we get more people uh into our lead funnels because we're getting paid per lead on our website and that's not necessarily always like okay let's look at rebuilding the whole site which would then obviously maybe potentially affect your search uh search results it's instead saying okay can we add this section above the fold that has a directional Quee uh and has some social proof that encourage people

more people to click through to your lead form uh that's going to generate you more revenue and get more people into your flow um and I think that's that's uh almost like myth is like you can't really PIR C CEO SEO and cro because you know it's going to be huge changes to my site that are detrimental to my rankings it's not often the case especially if you have a lot of data you can certainly play the two games at once um you just have to

use an agency that knows they can't change the whole website because it's going to affect your ranking and given your experience in building communities do you think communities are going to just get stronger as we're now in the the era of AI content where I mean Google's getting blasted with content left right and center and I think the the two channels that maybe are where people will gravitate towards will be video because it you can't quite fake video and communities where you're basically connecting with real

people I I think that last statement is crucial it's that like real connection um and that's that's really what I've yeah I have a a cro agency yeah I built an affiliate Community but effectively it was always a community behind it even with our cro agency everything we do is organic uh I am the face of the business uh years ago I read a book called by an English artist called um hey person of influence a guy called Daniel priesty and I just became fixated on

this like being a key person of influence within whatever you do and that's all about Community you know you can actually put Community into so many different uh Wars of life you know an email list a newsletter a Facebook group Discord a YouTube channel it's all about like having that connection and that Network and that direct t point with people that I think is never going to go away it it evolves of course it does you know uh back when I started as I said you

know Facebook groups would have play forums would thing there was not no such thing as a Facebook group we were on like V bulletins Zen Bor like these actual hardcore forums that you've had to sign up for physically typing I mean I've still own one I we have one for our conversion right Academy is built on zenor because I'm a community geek at heart um but but now you know you have Facebook groups that evolved then you've had sort of Discord telegram WhatsApp um it's get

a startop I I think what is really important is having that direct connection you know even in the world of AI you can kind of tell you you might not be able to tell like when people are uh kind of using AI to ghost right for them or come up with content but you can tell when someone's not getting on video or not doing podcasts like this or not directly connecting with their netw worth I think the connection part that you mentioned is is the bit

that's just going to go on and those who continue to connect and actually show up and show that a real person um are going to be way way way more followable if that's the word or you know connectable than someone who's just kind of spinning out all this AI fake content for sure and what do you think about AI heat maps and do you think C is going to be more automated with AI yes uh I think I I don't think excuse me I don't think

the actual testing of C is going to be more automated but I think AI makes reporting a lot easier so I have a very good friend a guy called Dylan Ander um and he recently launched heat map.com I don't know if youve seen it uh for those of you who haven't seen it this is the only heat map you should be using the reason I say it it's the first ever Revenue back te so Dylan had this genius idea of like okay things like um hot

jar Etc will tell you where people click that's cool you can see where people click but a click doesn't always add up to a sale whereas what heat map does is it attributes the click to the sale so you might actually have an element on the site that gets fewer clicks that heat that hot jar for example would say that's sure that's sure get rid of that that's getting fewer clicks that button actually might be the one that's generating you the checkouts of the revenue so

um heat map.com for sure check it out that is uh that's a game changer as far as the kind of heat map industry they are building in some really cool AI Automation in there uh that's going to kind of again it's not going to do the work for you but it's going to make the reporting and the understanding of the actual software a lot easier so it's going to make suggestions based on your data so you know it's going to come up and say have you

looked at this and doing this because of this button for example so you know it might suggest that uh you know have you have you noticed that the the button below the fold is actually generating you most of the revenue why not change the content above the fold to follow the say um so it will definitely be more of a suggested approach and I think reporting and kind of analytic analytical side of things is going to get easier and information is going to be made more

abundance through Ai and more kind of accurate but I don't know necessarily if creating the actual hypothesis and testing uh is going to be automated I still believe you need um someone with a bit of knowledge on the kind of Frameworks and because it's not landing page design is very much you can very much wireframe it and you can kind of hit hit those high high conversion rates 90% of the time when it comes to mass volume of data where audiences and demographics are so different

based on different products different offers it needs some form of human um uh interaction and and knowledge to know what to test and again a lot tests lose they do even if they humans doing it but I think AI will advance as far as software and Reporting but I still think you need uh conversion wise do the testing for you exactly so so given your experience uh I want to ask this is kind of like uh your chance to show about uh I'm going to give

you let's say 100 hypothetical uh landing pages and going to ask you to optimize them without using any of your tools just your experience what would you say your score would be in terms of always getting uh an improvement in score Improvement I would say eight to nine times out of 10 um you can with landing pages as I said you can follow specific Frameworks that we have kind of pioneered and built uh over the last decade uh and nine times out of 10 depending on

your Niche and I'll go into a little bit more about that um they will convert better than probably what you have already um where there are discrepancies and where there are um I guess differences uh in that very specific niches for example if you own a apparel brand that is a luxury apparel brand it's highly branded it's more about the kind of Aesthetics it's more about the look The Brand um the colors used you know we may suggest on other brands to use a specific colored

button that stands out against your your normal brand so it gets more clicks however on an apparel brand that can actually play a negative effect on certain things uh we might suggest using inventory uh stock alert icons that say like only four left in stock or 10 were bought today on some particular luxury or um high-end kind of brands that can actually have a negative effect so there are definitely computations where it's not a one-size fitel 100% and that also is um way more uh easy

to find out what they are when you get to a high level of of traffic but if you are under that kind of like 50,000 hits per month there is definitely a framework to follow where you tip conversion principal boxes and just very quickly there are things like trust credibility social proofs desire um you know correct layouts uh having a strong value proposition handling objections using FS to to handle those objections using uh reviews with uh objection handling statements within them to then remove friction from

your customers usability is huge so actually having a site that's actually really easy to use and doesn't have bottlenecks where people drop up if they're in the car the check out or they're going down a multi-step form on the leaden side form on the lead gen side but they don't have a progress bar so they don't know where they are within the within the funnel like there's all these little things that depending on what you're trying to do if you're doing coaching if you're doing uh

digital products physical products Ecom Leen vsls aatori like all these different wireframes that have a different layout that work best and we're just lucky that we work with like 3,500 plus brands that we have been able to build Frameworks based on their data so we've kind of used them as guinea pigs obviously more so eight nine years ago when like Tim was kind of running offers and we were using bwa to build these Frameworks now we kind of pretty much have it nailed down but doesn't

always work it doesn't but eight nine times out and it will so on the opposite side I believe most designers they don't really understand or study user experience design or conversion rate optimization so how often do you run into clients that say hey I have a new web design and it's actually converting worse what happened yeah a lot and typically that is uh you've kind of summed up in your question typically that will happen where people employ designers that make beautiful websites and they may look

aesthetically amazing you look at it and you just think wow that's really nicely designed from a Brands perspective or you know all these visual effects and colors and blah blah blah but ultimately the the question I always pour my team to ask people is like do you want something that looks nice or something that makes you money and the end goal for me is always Revenue it's Revenue per visitor conversion rates are actually a bit of a skew metric you shouldn't really focus on conversion rate

what you should focus on is revenue per visitor because aov and conversion rate can sometimes Clash um and you can actually get a lower conversion rate but your aov is up and it you think that conversion rate is down you get higher conversion rate areas down and you think you've done a good job you're actually losing money um but it is that whole kind of age-old thing of like yeah I agree I convert and it does but also you can have a fine mix of branded

design with c with c with c that um it's going to work but you you're you're right we see it a lot and it typically is when people employ a employ a nonperformance related designer for performance related performance related business perfect way to summarize it and last question what do you see as the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence future of affiliate marketing I I don't see affiliate marketing going anywhere I think uh the way I've seen it is the way seen

affiliate marketing in my sort of small bubble and space over the last few years is it's gone more uh led into Partnerships as opposed to affiliate so like it's more partnership driven obviously I work a lot with agency to agency it's less now about kind of affiliate links and it's more like uh kind of direct intros Etc but on the on the affiliate side where you kind of you know you have Affiliates running your traffic and you have lots of traffic going um the way I've

seen it evolve over the years is just it's just becomes a little bit more kind of compliant it probably becomes a little bit harder to do things that you used to be able to do that we were maybe doing 10 years ago uh but I think that's all for the for the benefit of the industry and I just think Affiliates is just a very still a very kind of like untapped and huge space that again we work primarily now of Ecom Brands and the percentage of

Ecom brands that actually have affiliate programs is is minuscule and I think there is again a huge opportunity for people to open up affiliate programs yes you have to vet your Affiliates yes I would uh provide them with landing pages that are approved by you guys and kind of make sure the CR optimized but I don't see it going anywhere see it I don't see it going anywhere it's a brilliant model um you know you get a slice of the pie they get a slice of

the pie and the customer should end up with a good end result um I I I don't see it fading any anytime soon absolutely and Oliver thanks for doing this where can people get a hold of you really appreciate it yeah if you want to kind of get some more tips and tricks about C and kind of General Marketing in Ecom then you can follow me um Oliver Kenyan on Twitter or X as they call it these days uh or if you want to just learn

a little bit more about what we can do for you as a company um we can build landing pages we can run your ongoing cro you can find us at conversion conversion conversion wise and I'll put all those links in the show note including the conversion Academy that's a great place if you want to learn yeah absolutely thanks a lot thank you so much me John CH appreciate it thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask

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