Kasra Dash on Why Lazy SEO Is Dead and Brands Win

Let's say you're getting £10,000 visits Let's say you're getting £10,000 visits a month to your website. If I came to

a month to your website. If I came to a month to your website. If I came to you and I said, "John, you've got

you and I said, "John, you've got you and I said, "John, you've got £50,000 to spend,

£50,000 to spend, £50,000 to spend, would you rather try to double your

would you rather try to double your would you rather try to double your current conversion rate, let's say it's

current conversion rate, let's say it's current conversion rate, let's say it's at 3% or 1.5%,

at 3% or 1.5%, at 3% or 1.5%, or would you try and get 20,000 people

or would you try and get 20,000 people or would you try and get 20,000 people onto your website?" I think I'm I'd like

onto your website?" I think I'm I'd like onto your website?" I think I'm I'd like to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do

to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do CRO and try and make it as seamless as

CRO and try and make it as seamless as CRO and try and make it as seamless as possible." Maybe I know that you're not

possible." Maybe I know that you're not possible." Maybe I know that you're not necessarily like an e-commerce store,

necessarily like an e-commerce store, necessarily like an e-commerce store, but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to

but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to add in like Apple Pay because we've not

add in like Apple Pay because we've not add in like Apple Pay because we've not already got that and we're going to

already got that and we're going to already got that and we're going to we're going to add upselles onto the

we're going to add upselles onto the we're going to add upselles onto the checkout. We're going to do X, Y, and

checkout. We're going to do X, Y, and checkout. We're going to do X, Y, and Zed." And then boom. That's personally

Zed." And then boom. That's personally Zed." And then boom. That's personally what I would do.

what I would do. what I would do. >> I'm John Wright and you're listening to

>> I'm John Wright and you're listening to >> I'm John Wright and you're listening to AffiliateBI, the business intelligence

AffiliateBI, the business intelligence AffiliateBI, the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought

and affiliate marketing podcast brought and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by Snapchat.

to you by Snapchat. to you by Snapchat. >> Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast.

>> Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast. >> Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast. Today we're chatting with Castra Dash

Today we're chatting with Castra Dash Today we're chatting with Castra Dash who is an SEO consultant with who is an SEO consultant with who is an SEO consultant with Castradash.com

Castradash.com Castradash.com and he's affiliate marketer and the

and he's affiliate marketer and the and he's affiliate marketer and the founder of the masterminders. Castra,

founder of the masterminders. Castra, founder of the masterminders. Castra, welcome to the show. welcome to the show. welcome to the show. >> Hello. Thanks for having me.

>> Hello. Thanks for having me. >> Hello. Thanks for having me. >> All right, we're going to jump straight >> All right, we're going to jump straight >> All right, we're going to jump straight into the mastermind concept because I've

into the mastermind concept because I've into the mastermind concept because I've interviewed James Douly in the past and

interviewed James Douly in the past and interviewed James Douly in the past and he was telling me how this is like a

he was telling me how this is like a he was telling me how this is like a massive unlock and I've been following

massive unlock and I've been following massive unlock and I've been following what you've been doing with the what you've been doing with the what you've been doing with the masterminder. So, what are people

masterminder. So, what are people masterminder. So, what are people missing out on? And tell me what's missing out on? And tell me what's missing out on? And tell me what's behind these things where I personally

behind these things where I personally behind these things where I personally probably should start getting involved.

probably should start getting involved. probably should start getting involved. >> Yeah. So, I I think the number one way

>> Yeah. So, I I think the number one way >> Yeah. So, I I think the number one way to learn stuff is by finding someone

to learn stuff is by finding someone to learn stuff is by finding someone that's kind of done what you have

that's kind of done what you have that's kind of done what you have already done and asking them as many

already done and asking them as many already done and asking them as many questions as possible. That that's kind

questions as possible. That that's kind questions as possible. That that's kind of similar to how I got here today. I

of similar to how I got here today. I of similar to how I got here today. I probably met James and guys like Craig

probably met James and guys like Craig probably met James and guys like Craig and a few others in a mastermind in

and a few others in a mastermind in and a few others in a mastermind in Liverpool maybe six or seven years ago

Liverpool maybe six or seven years ago Liverpool maybe six or seven years ago now. And ever since that day,

now. And ever since that day, now. And ever since that day, everything's just been leveling up, everything's just been leveling up, everything's just been leveling up, leveling up, like just grown to be a

leveling up, like just grown to be a leveling up, like just grown to be a better entrepreneur, a better SEO, a

better entrepreneur, a better SEO, a better entrepreneur, a better SEO, a better affiliate marketer. So, I think

better affiliate marketer. So, I think better affiliate marketer. So, I think that's the number one way. And I al I

that's the number one way. And I al I that's the number one way. And I al I also think that a lot of people don't

also think that a lot of people don't also think that a lot of people don't know this, but a lot of the content and

know this, but a lot of the content and know this, but a lot of the content and stuff like that, it's kind of like

stuff like that, it's kind of like stuff like that, it's kind of like gatekept online. Although there's a lot

gatekept online. Although there's a lot gatekept online. Although there's a lot of free knowledge

of free knowledge of free knowledge online on YouTube and stuff and blogs,

online on YouTube and stuff and blogs, online on YouTube and stuff and blogs, there's also there's just that little

there's also there's just that little there's also there's just that little bit of sprinkling magical dust, if you

bit of sprinkling magical dust, if you bit of sprinkling magical dust, if you will, when you actually speak to people

will, when you actually speak to people will, when you actually speak to people in person. Like even you you'll probably

in person. Like even you you'll probably in person. Like even you you'll probably know this yourself, John, a lot of the

know this yourself, John, a lot of the know this yourself, John, a lot of the big deals are probably done at the bar.

big deals are probably done at the bar. big deals are probably done at the bar. It's not done online. So that that's

It's not done online. So that that's It's not done online. So that that's another advantage of actually going to

another advantage of actually going to another advantage of actually going to conferences or going to masterminds and

conferences or going to masterminds and conferences or going to masterminds and stuff. Yeah, that makes me feel a little

stuff. Yeah, that makes me feel a little stuff. Yeah, that makes me feel a little guilty where a lot of the social events

guilty where a lot of the social events guilty where a lot of the social events I tend to slowly back away from. I've

I tend to slowly back away from. I've I tend to slowly back away from. I've just been in eye gaming for 20 years

just been in eye gaming for 20 years just been in eye gaming for 20 years where the bars were, you're right, so

where the bars were, you're right, so where the bars were, you're right, so much business was done there, but much business was done there, but much business was done there, but everything's changed where now people

everything's changed where now people everything's changed where now people are not showing up hung over the next

are not showing up hung over the next are not showing up hung over the next day. And that's a whole other story

day. And that's a whole other story day. And that's a whole other story though. though. though. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's hard to not ask questions

>> Okay. It's hard to not ask questions >> Okay. It's hard to not ask questions without AI and the state of affiliate

without AI and the state of affiliate without AI and the state of affiliate marketing today because I get asked this

marketing today because I get asked this marketing today because I get asked this all the time. What do you see as the

all the time. What do you see as the all the time. What do you see as the state of affiliate marketing? Where's it

state of affiliate marketing? Where's it state of affiliate marketing? Where's it going? Given your personal experience,

going? Given your personal experience, going? Given your personal experience, your network where you talk to a lot of

your network where you talk to a lot of your network where you talk to a lot of people, you know, about all these

people, you know, about all these people, you know, about all these things, what's happening? What I keep

things, what's happening? What I keep things, what's happening? What I keep hearing is that it's getting harder, but

hearing is that it's getting harder, but hearing is that it's getting harder, but for people like you, I'm hearing that

for people like you, I'm hearing that for people like you, I'm hearing that you guys are like celebrating this you guys are like celebrating this you guys are like celebrating this because it's when people are not really

because it's when people are not really because it's when people are not really wanting to compete, you're having more wanting to compete, you're having more wanting to compete, you're having more of the pie if I think I'm right.

of the pie if I think I'm right. of the pie if I think I'm right. >> Yeah. So, there there's two sides of it

>> Yeah. So, there there's two sides of it >> Yeah. So, there there's two sides of it that I see. A lot of people think that

that I see. A lot of people think that that I see. A lot of people think that SEO, affiliate marketing is dead and SEO

SEO, affiliate marketing is dead and SEO SEO, affiliate marketing is dead and SEO or doing SEO for affiliate marketing is

or doing SEO for affiliate marketing is or doing SEO for affiliate marketing is just one piece of the puzzle if you

just one piece of the puzzle if you just one piece of the puzzle if you think of it. Like for example,

think of it. Like for example, think of it. Like for example, you could say that the masterminders is

you could say that the masterminders is you could say that the masterminders is an affiliate marketing

an affiliate marketing an affiliate marketing network because I send traffic through

network because I send traffic through network because I send traffic through to a hotel and I get an affiliate

to a hotel and I get an affiliate to a hotel and I get an affiliate commission off of that. So there's all

commission off of that. So there's all commission off of that. So there's all of these different nuances to affiliate

of these different nuances to affiliate of these different nuances to affiliate marketing. Yes, there's a lot of people

marketing. Yes, there's a lot of people marketing. Yes, there's a lot of people leaving the SEO affiliate marketing

leaving the SEO affiliate marketing leaving the SEO affiliate marketing space, but there's a lot of people that

space, but there's a lot of people that space, but there's a lot of people that are like, all right, I'm just going to are like, all right, I'm just going to are like, all right, I'm just going to double and triple and quadruple down on

double and triple and quadruple down on double and triple and quadruple down on this space.

this space. this space. One other caveat to all of this is if

One other caveat to all of this is if One other caveat to all of this is if you are thinking, I'm just going to

you are thinking, I'm just going to you are thinking, I'm just going to upload 500 articles to my website, get

upload 500 articles to my website, get upload 500 articles to my website, get topical authority, rank for a load of

topical authority, rank for a load of topical authority, rank for a load of casino phrases, or whichever niche you

casino phrases, or whichever niche you casino phrases, or whichever niche you decide to go down. It's not the it's not

decide to go down. It's not the it's not decide to go down. It's not the it's not the case. Like I I remember when I first

the case. Like I I remember when I first the case. Like I I remember when I first got into affiliate marketing, it must

got into affiliate marketing, it must got into affiliate marketing, it must have been like 20

have been like 20 have been like 20 2018 2019 and it was very easy back like

2018 2019 and it was very easy back like 2018 2019 and it was very easy back like in hindsight it was very easy looking at

in hindsight it was very easy looking at in hindsight it was very easy looking at it back then thinking okay I'm just

it back then thinking okay I'm just it back then thinking okay I'm just going to publish maybe 60 articles get

going to publish maybe 60 articles get going to publish maybe 60 articles get topical authority and I'm going to rank

topical authority and I'm going to rank topical authority and I'm going to rank for best I don't know best televisions

for best I don't know best televisions for best I don't know best televisions right or what whatever the industry is

right or what whatever the industry is right or what whatever the industry is now Google wants to see actual brands

now Google wants to see actual brands now Google wants to see actual brands they want to see brands that actually

they want to see brands that actually they want to see brands that actually have

have have people searching for them. They want to

people searching for them. They want to people searching for them. They want to see people that are actually getting a

see people that are actually getting a see people that are actually getting a positive UI and user experience on the

positive UI and user experience on the positive UI and user experience on the website. The days of just uploading a

website. The days of just uploading a website. The days of just uploading a hot pile of garbage through to your

hot pile of garbage through to your hot pile of garbage through to your website and ranking number one are very

website and ranking number one are very website and ranking number one are very truly gone. Like I I remember after the

truly gone. Like I I remember after the truly gone. Like I I remember after the 2023 September helpful content update, I

2023 September helpful content update, I 2023 September helpful content update, I had just finished speaking at Changai

had just finished speaking at Changai had just finished speaking at Changai SEO and I got a little bit of stitch for

SEO and I got a little bit of stitch for SEO and I got a little bit of stitch for this, but I tweeted a picture of me like

this, but I tweeted a picture of me like this, but I tweeted a picture of me like next to a pool and I said, "Look, do I

next to a pool and I said, "Look, do I next to a pool and I said, "Look, do I qualify to be a holiday blogger?"

qualify to be a holiday blogger?" qualify to be a holiday blogger?" Because the whole joke is like a lot of

Because the whole joke is like a lot of Because the whole joke is like a lot of holiday bloggers haven't even left their

holiday bloggers haven't even left their holiday bloggers haven't even left their house in the past four years. is they're

house in the past four years. is they're house in the past four years. is they're just publishing articles to all these

just publishing articles to all these just publishing articles to all these magical places that they've never been

magical places that they've never been magical places that they've never been to and they're getting affiliate from

to and they're getting affiliate from to and they're getting affiliate from Booking.com and whoever else. So, I

Booking.com and whoever else. So, I Booking.com and whoever else. So, I think the people that are willing to go

think the people that are willing to go think the people that are willing to go that one extra step, they will be able

that one extra step, they will be able that one extra step, they will be able to make a lot of money, the people that

to make a lot of money, the people that to make a lot of money, the people that are just trying to hack their way around

are just trying to hack their way around are just trying to hack their way around affiliate marketing, especially more so

affiliate marketing, especially more so affiliate marketing, especially more so in SEO now, you're probably like going

in SEO now, you're probably like going in SEO now, you're probably like going to ride a wave. So, you might earn for

to ride a wave. So, you might earn for to ride a wave. So, you might earn for one or two months, then you're going to one or two months, then you're going to one or two months, then you're going to get slapped. And to be fair, that's some

get slapped. And to be fair, that's some get slapped. And to be fair, that's some people's business models. Like, I'm not

people's business models. Like, I'm not people's business models. Like, I'm not a big fan of that business model. Mainly

a big fan of that business model. Mainly a big fan of that business model. Mainly because I try to build up assets and

because I try to build up assets and because I try to build up assets and brands to potentially sell them in one

brands to potentially sell them in one brands to potentially sell them in one or two or three or four years time.

or two or three or four years time. or two or three or four years time. Whereas some people, they're like, "Nah,

Whereas some people, they're like, "Nah, Whereas some people, they're like, "Nah, that's not the game that I want to play.

that's not the game that I want to play. that's not the game that I want to play. I m would much rather build out a

I m would much rather build out a I m would much rather build out a website that lasts maybe one or two

website that lasts maybe one or two website that lasts maybe one or two weeks or one or two months and then it

weeks or one or two months and then it weeks or one or two months and then it burns back down and then I'm just going burns back down and then I'm just going burns back down and then I'm just going to reload the gun and go again, which is

to reload the gun and go again, which is to reload the gun and go again, which is completely fine. It's just not my completely fine. It's just not my completely fine. It's just not my business model.

business model. business model. >> Yeah, that makes sense. What I think to

>> Yeah, that makes sense. What I think to >> Yeah, that makes sense. What I think to be true is that there's a lot of people

be true is that there's a lot of people be true is that there's a lot of people like you just highlighted that people

like you just highlighted that people like you just highlighted that people like the short-term gains. They're not

like the short-term gains. They're not like the short-term gains. They're not even thinking long term. But it seems

even thinking long term. But it seems even thinking long term. But it seems when people want to build sites, like I

when people want to build sites, like I when people want to build sites, like I get this all the time and I'm guilty of get this all the time and I'm guilty of get this all the time and I'm guilty of this. I did this a long time ago and this. I did this a long time ago and this. I did this a long time ago and it's one of my biggest mistakes was

it's one of my biggest mistakes was it's one of my biggest mistakes was doing multiple sites when I never put in

doing multiple sites when I never put in doing multiple sites when I never put in the quality effort on one. So there's

the quality effort on one. So there's the quality effort on one. So there's always people saying don't put your eggs

always people saying don't put your eggs always people saying don't put your eggs in the one basket. But I think with the

in the one basket. But I think with the in the one basket. But I think with the new world of not just SEO but affiliate

new world of not just SEO but affiliate new world of not just SEO but affiliate marketing, you actually need to do that.

marketing, you actually need to do that. marketing, you actually need to do that. It's are you going to create the extra

It's are you going to create the extra It's are you going to create the extra >> TV article or are you going to actually

>> TV article or are you going to actually >> TV article or are you going to actually put that extra quality into if you're

put that extra quality into if you're put that extra quality into if you're going to be a travel affiliate even if

going to be a travel affiliate even if going to be a travel affiliate even if you're not traveling it's do something you're not traveling it's do something you're not traveling it's do something that you're you're curating data or

that you're you're curating data or that you're you're curating data or something. Yeah. So, I almost see it as

something. Yeah. So, I almost see it as something. Yeah. So, I almost see it as if you could either spend or put all

if you could either spend or put all if you could either spend or put all your eggs in one basket on a website,

your eggs in one basket on a website, your eggs in one basket on a website, which might not just be SEO traffic, by

which might not just be SEO traffic, by which might not just be SEO traffic, by the way, or you could spread yourself

the way, or you could spread yourself the way, or you could spread yourself too thin and go or not too thin, but go

too thin and go or not too thin, but go too thin and go or not too thin, but go across multiple different sites

across multiple different sites across multiple different sites and just go after SEO traffic. But you

and just go after SEO traffic. But you and just go after SEO traffic. But you kind of need to pick your battles. So,

kind of need to pick your battles. So, kind of need to pick your battles. So, let's say, for example, if I went and

let's say, for example, if I went and let's say, for example, if I went and registered stone.org,

registered stone.org, registered stone.org, right? Would I want to publish a

right? Would I want to publish a right? Would I want to publish a podcast? Yeah, probably would do because

podcast? Yeah, probably would do because podcast? Yeah, probably would do because that's what you've done. Would I want to

that's what you've done. Would I want to that's what you've done. Would I want to focus on SEO traffic? Yeah, probably

focus on SEO traffic? Yeah, probably focus on SEO traffic? Yeah, probably would do. Would you want to go and

would do. Would you want to go and would do. Would you want to go and sponsor a load of different events that

sponsor a load of different events that sponsor a load of different events that your potential customer audience is at?

your potential customer audience is at? your potential customer audience is at? Yeah, you probably would do. Would you

Yeah, you probably would do. Would you Yeah, you probably would do. Would you want to do PPC? Yeah. Would you want to

want to do PPC? Yeah. Would you want to want to do PPC? Yeah. Would you want to do Facebook ads? Yeah. So trying to

do Facebook ads? Yeah. So trying to do Facebook ads? Yeah. So trying to build the bigger picture here and saying

build the bigger picture here and saying build the bigger picture here and saying I would rather build the brand and not

I would rather build the brand and not I would rather build the brand and not just focus on SEO traffic as opposed to

just focus on SEO traffic as opposed to just focus on SEO traffic as opposed to building let's say seven different stats

building let's say seven different stats building let's say seven different stats drones that's only focusing on SEO

drones that's only focusing on SEO drones that's only focusing on SEO traffic. And that's kind of what Google

traffic. And that's kind of what Google traffic. And that's kind of what Google kind of wants from you. Now I'm not

kind of wants from you. Now I'm not kind of wants from you. Now I'm not saying that's the case for every single

saying that's the case for every single saying that's the case for every single niche, but for the more competitive

niche, but for the more competitive niche, but for the more competitive industries that is definitely the case.

industries that is definitely the case. industries that is definitely the case. Like a lot of people would might listen

Like a lot of people would might listen Like a lot of people would might listen to this and be like, "Okay, so Casra is

to this and be like, "Okay, so Casra is to this and be like, "Okay, so Casra is telling me I'm a local plumber. I need

telling me I'm a local plumber. I need telling me I'm a local plumber. I need to go and do a podcast, do PPC, do

to go and do a podcast, do PPC, do to go and do a podcast, do PPC, do Facebook ads, do SEO, do email

Facebook ads, do SEO, do email Facebook ads, do SEO, do email marketing." I'm not saying that by any

marketing." I'm not saying that by any marketing." I'm not saying that by any means. But if you're in, let's say you

means. But if you're in, let's say you means. But if you're in, let's say you are doing a pet supplement brand, which

are doing a pet supplement brand, which are doing a pet supplement brand, which might be very competitive. In that case,

might be very competitive. In that case, might be very competitive. In that case, I would try to treat as much of a brand

I would try to treat as much of a brand I would try to treat as much of a brand as I possibly can. I would look to build

as I possibly can. I would look to build as I possibly can. I would look to build out an email list. I would look to

out an email list. I would look to out an email list. I would look to potentially sponsor events. I would look

potentially sponsor events. I would look potentially sponsor events. I would look to do PPC, SEO, Facebook ads, etc.

to do PPC, SEO, Facebook ads, etc. to do PPC, SEO, Facebook ads, etc. >> Well, and now you've just added a couple

>> Well, and now you've just added a couple >> Well, and now you've just added a couple things I know I need to be personally

things I know I need to be personally things I know I need to be personally doing more of. So, I think we did a

doing more of. So, I think we did a doing more of. So, I think we did a decent job at Statone, but we always

decent job at Statone, but we always decent job at Statone, but we always know that there's another thing we can

know that there's another thing we can know that there's another thing we can do. And the idea personally of me

do. And the idea personally of me do. And the idea personally of me actually adding another product or

actually adding another product or actually adding another product or subbrand, it's if it's not part of the

subbrand, it's if it's not part of the subbrand, it's if it's not part of the central family, it's I don't really want

central family, it's I don't really want central family, it's I don't really want to build another YouTube channel,

to build another YouTube channel, to build another YouTube channel, another Facebook channel. Reddit's

another Facebook channel. Reddit's another Facebook channel. Reddit's trying to go, okay, what am I talking trying to go, okay, what am I talking trying to go, okay, what am I talking about, Statton or some other product?

about, Statton or some other product? about, Statton or some other product? It's it's been actually helpful for us

It's it's been actually helpful for us It's it's been actually helpful for us to be focused on one project and

to be focused on one project and to be focused on one project and actually sell our affiliate sites and actually sell our affiliate sites and actually sell our affiliate sites and say, you know what, we're not even we're say, you know what, we're not even we're say, you know what, we're not even we're not even in the affiliate space other

not even in the affiliate space other not even in the affiliate space other than B2B affiliation.

than B2B affiliation. than B2B affiliation. >> Yeah. I So, one thing that I would say

>> Yeah. I So, one thing that I would say >> Yeah. I So, one thing that I would say to that, a counterpoint, I would look to

to that, a counterpoint, I would look to to that, a counterpoint, I would look to potentially add products or services to

potentially add products or services to potentially add products or services to Statone or to any business that I think

Statone or to any business that I think Statone or to any business that I think would be useful. So, let's say, for

would be useful. So, let's say, for would be useful. So, let's say, for example, if your lifetime value of a

example, if your lifetime value of a example, if your lifetime value of a client is, let's say, $6,000, right? If

client is, let's say, $6,000, right? If client is, let's say, $6,000, right? If you can add a certain product or a

you can add a certain product or a you can add a certain product or a service that would get them to let's say

service that would get them to let's say service that would get them to let's say 10,000 and you think that's going to

10,000 and you think that's going to 10,000 and you think that's going to provide a good service, a good user

provide a good service, a good user provide a good service, a good user experience to that customer, then by all

experience to that customer, then by all experience to that customer, then by all means. That's just like business 101

means. That's just like business 101 means. That's just like business 101 really. So there in certain times I

really. So there in certain times I really. So there in certain times I would say stay in your lane and other

would say stay in your lane and other would say stay in your lane and other times it's not a bad idea to test out

times it's not a bad idea to test out times it's not a bad idea to test out different products and different different products and different different products and different services. services. services. >> Yeah, I think that one's just stacking

>> Yeah, I think that one's just stacking >> Yeah, I think that one's just stacking like a perfect example. I'm giving you a

like a perfect example. I'm giving you a like a perfect example. I'm giving you a couple insights where we've thought

couple insights where we've thought couple insights where we've thought about building an M&A marketplace inside

about building an M&A marketplace inside about building an M&A marketplace inside of our app because we actually had

of our app because we actually had of our app because we actually had customers saying, "Can you introduce us

customers saying, "Can you introduce us customers saying, "Can you introduce us to to buyers?" And funny enough, it's we

to to buyers?" And funny enough, it's we to to buyers?" And funny enough, it's we have seat functionality. So, they can

have seat functionality. So, they can have seat functionality. So, they can actually offer a seat to these people.

actually offer a seat to these people. actually offer a seat to these people. Now, there's so many people in the M&A

Now, there's so many people in the M&A Now, there's so many people in the M&A space. Empire Flippers is a perfect

space. Empire Flippers is a perfect space. Empire Flippers is a perfect example. Do we really want to do all the

example. Do we really want to do all the example. Do we really want to do all the things that they do? like when you go

things that they do? like when you go things that they do? like when you go through their their due diligence

through their their due diligence through their their due diligence process, I don't want to build all these

process, I don't want to build all these process, I don't want to build all these funnels and like NDA contracts and the

funnels and like NDA contracts and the funnels and like NDA contracts and the buyer contracts and that's just a whole

buyer contracts and that's just a whole buyer contracts and that's just a whole other business. So, I think for us, we'd

other business. So, I think for us, we'd other business. So, I think for us, we'd probably sit back and go, let's turn

probably sit back and go, let's turn probably sit back and go, let's turn that on, but let's have it so it's

that on, but let's have it so it's that on, but let's have it so it's choose your own adventure. Like, here's

choose your own adventure. Like, here's choose your own adventure. Like, here's a link like here's a link to Empire

a link like here's a link to Empire a link like here's a link to Empire Flippers with the tracking link where if

Flippers with the tracking link where if Flippers with the tracking link where if they sign up to them, then we're getting

they sign up to them, then we're getting they sign up to them, then we're getting a commission and we're still getting the

a commission and we're still getting the a commission and we're still getting the same thing done. same thing done. same thing done. >> Yeah, definitely.

>> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Okay. And then you're featured in the I

>> Okay. And then you're featured in the I >> Okay. And then you're featured in the I gaming SEO book and you talk a lot about

gaming SEO book and you talk a lot about gaming SEO book and you talk a lot about don't trust KPIs like domain rating and

don't trust KPIs like domain rating and don't trust KPIs like domain rating and traffic value which I already know to be

traffic value which I already know to be traffic value which I already know to be true but I just kind of want to go a bit

true but I just kind of want to go a bit true but I just kind of want to go a bit deeper because they can easily be

deeper because they can easily be deeper because they can easily be manipulated and you wrote rely on tools

manipulated and you wrote rely on tools manipulated and you wrote rely on tools like link research tools but do you

like link research tools but do you like link research tools but do you think there's an easy way to pass this

think there's an easy way to pass this think there's an easy way to pass this as a highle info to an affiliate manager

as a highle info to an affiliate manager as a highle info to an affiliate manager or should everyone be doing their or should everyone be doing their or should everyone be doing their homework? So, just to give you context,

homework? So, just to give you context, homework? So, just to give you context, like affiliate managers, they're going

like affiliate managers, they're going like affiliate managers, they're going to hrefs and they're like, "Oh, this is to hrefs and they're like, "Oh, this is to hrefs and they're like, "Oh, this is a good affiliate." And the same thing

a good affiliate." And the same thing a good affiliate." And the same thing for link buyers, but you're like, "Wait

for link buyers, but you're like, "Wait for link buyers, but you're like, "Wait a minute, this is manipulated DR."

a minute, this is manipulated DR." a minute, this is manipulated DR." >> Yeah. So,

>> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, I've kind of been on the receiving end

I've kind of been on the receiving end I've kind of been on the receiving end of like affiliate market or head of

of like affiliate market or head of of like affiliate market or head of affiliate and stuff like that reaching

affiliate and stuff like that reaching affiliate and stuff like that reaching out to me and they all they've done is

out to me and they all they've done is out to me and they all they've done is they've just looked at AHF's like the

they've just looked at AHF's like the they've just looked at AHF's like the vanity metrics and they're like, "Ah,

vanity metrics and they're like, "Ah, vanity metrics and they're like, "Ah, yeah, this website's brilliant." There's

yeah, this website's brilliant." There's yeah, this website's brilliant." There's definitely other ways. Like another tool

definitely other ways. Like another tool definitely other ways. Like another tool that I'm I've been currently using is

that I'm I've been currently using is that I'm I've been currently using is similar web as well which it tells you

similar web as well which it tells you similar web as well which it tells you where the traffic is also coming in from

where the traffic is also coming in from where the traffic is also coming in from which is always good to good to analyze

which is always good to good to analyze which is always good to good to analyze because in some cases like there there

because in some cases like there there because in some cases like there there was actually I'll give you a prime

was actually I'll give you a prime was actually I'll give you a prime example.

example. example. There was a tech website that I was

There was a tech website that I was There was a tech website that I was doing like consultancy for a couple

doing like consultancy for a couple doing like consultancy for a couple months ago and you would look at it or

months ago and you would look at it or months ago and you would look at it or any SEO would look at it and you like ah

any SEO would look at it and you like ah any SEO would look at it and you like ah it's not getting any traffic. It's like

it's not getting any traffic. It's like it's not getting any traffic. It's like DR12 or whatever, but that website was

DR12 or whatever, but that website was DR12 or whatever, but that website was generating around 60,000 a month net

generating around 60,000 a month net generating around 60,000 a month net like after all their expenses, after

like after all their expenses, after like after all their expenses, after their hosting, after paying their

their hosting, after paying their their hosting, after paying their content writers, marketing team, etc.,

content writers, marketing team, etc., content writers, marketing team, etc., etc., etc. 60,000 net it was doing, but

etc., etc. 60,000 net it was doing, but etc., etc. 60,000 net it was doing, but on an SEO ground, you would think, ah,

on an SEO ground, you would think, ah, on an SEO ground, you would think, ah, I'm not even going to bother like doing

I'm not even going to bother like doing I'm not even going to bother like doing like any affiliate links on it or I'm

like any affiliate links on it or I'm like any affiliate links on it or I'm not going to reach out to these guys

not going to reach out to these guys not going to reach out to these guys because there's too small fry. But they

because there's too small fry. But they because there's too small fry. But they were getting a lot of their traffic from

were getting a lot of their traffic from were getting a lot of their traffic from Twitter and also Pinterest as well. So

Twitter and also Pinterest as well. So Twitter and also Pinterest as well. So in some cases you look at websites on

in some cases you look at websites on in some cases you look at websites on AHFS or Majestic or Semrush and whatever

AHFS or Majestic or Semrush and whatever AHFS or Majestic or Semrush and whatever else and you're like ah it's not

else and you're like ah it's not else and you're like ah it's not generating any leads at all but in other

generating any leads at all but in other generating any leads at all but in other cases it actually is. So that's why like

cases it actually is. So that's why like cases it actually is. So that's why like Similar Web's quite decent for that.

Similar Web's quite decent for that. Similar Web's quite decent for that. Link research tools is also good for

Link research tools is also good for Link research tools is also good for like toxicity levels of backlinks. I

like toxicity levels of backlinks. I like toxicity levels of backlinks. I wouldn't necessarily say to an affiliate

wouldn't necessarily say to an affiliate wouldn't necessarily say to an affiliate manager that you should be using that.

manager that you should be using that. manager that you should be using that. But yeah, like everything can be

But yeah, like everything can be But yeah, like everything can be manipulated with a lot of the tools.

manipulated with a lot of the tools. manipulated with a lot of the tools. Whereas if you're looking at at some

Whereas if you're looking at at some Whereas if you're looking at at some point you need to say you need to just

point you need to say you need to just point you need to say you need to just be

be be you at some point as an affiliate

you at some point as an affiliate you at some point as an affiliate manager you need to just say look I'm

manager you need to just say look I'm manager you need to just say look I'm going to I'm going to take the risk with going to I'm going to take the risk with going to I'm going to take the risk with this website, right? Because otherwise this website, right? Because otherwise this website, right? Because otherwise you're always just going to be analyzing

you're always just going to be analyzing you're always just going to be analyzing stuff. But yeah, it's everything can be

stuff. But yeah, it's everything can be stuff. But yeah, it's everything can be manipulated. So if you're an SEO

manipulated. So if you're an SEO manipulated. So if you're an SEO watching this, don't just look at domain

watching this, don't just look at domain watching this, don't just look at domain rating and a in ahfs and semrush. You

rating and a in ahfs and semrush. You rating and a in ahfs and semrush. You want to try to figure out, okay, yes,

want to try to figure out, okay, yes, want to try to figure out, okay, yes, it's got high DR, but has it been

it's got high DR, but has it been it's got high DR, but has it been manipulated? What's the outbound link

manipulated? What's the outbound link manipulated? What's the outbound link ratio? What's where is the traffic

ratio? What's where is the traffic ratio? What's where is the traffic coming from? What are the keywords that

coming from? What are the keywords that coming from? What are the keywords that it's actually ranking for? And then also

it's actually ranking for? And then also it's actually ranking for? And then also do a little bit of a deep dive of the

do a little bit of a deep dive of the do a little bit of a deep dive of the keywords. Are any of those being

keywords. Are any of those being keywords. Are any of those being manipulated? because you can also manipulated? because you can also manipulated? because you can also manipulate search volume which many

manipulate search volume which many manipulate search volume which many people don't know about. So for example,

people don't know about. So for example, people don't know about. So for example, you could like I I could tomorrow

you could like I I could tomorrow you could like I I could tomorrow manipulate

manipulate manipulate John Wright is the best affiliate

John Wright is the best affiliate John Wright is the best affiliate affiliate p sorry John Wright owns the

affiliate p sorry John Wright owns the affiliate p sorry John Wright owns the best affiliate program in the world.

best affiliate program in the world. best affiliate program in the world. Grab it now today 20 2025. So it could

Grab it now today 20 2025. So it could Grab it now today 20 2025. So it could be like super long and it could say

be like super long and it could say be like super long and it could say 6,000 people are searching for that. But

6,000 people are searching for that. But 6,000 people are searching for that. But we both know that 6,000 people won't be

we both know that 6,000 people won't be we both know that 6,000 people won't be they might be. Who knows? But I'd like

they might be. Who knows? But I'd like they might be. Who knows? But I'd like to say that 6,000 people wouldn't be

to say that 6,000 people wouldn't be to say that 6,000 people wouldn't be searching for that per month.

searching for that per month. searching for that per month. >> Yeah, it it's I don't even know if it'd

>> Yeah, it it's I don't even know if it'd >> Yeah, it it's I don't even know if it'd be one. be one. be one. >> Yeah, exactly. So, it can be

>> Yeah, exactly. So, it can be >> Yeah, exactly. So, it can be manipulated. So, that's all I'm saying.

manipulated. So, that's all I'm saying. manipulated. So, that's all I'm saying. Just do your due diligence. That's also

Just do your due diligence. That's also Just do your due diligence. That's also one thing that the the guys over at

one thing that the the guys over at one thing that the the guys over at who's the guy that you just said then

who's the guy that you just said then who's the guy that you just said then websites. websites. websites. >> No, they sell websites.

>> No, they sell websites. >> No, they sell websites. >> Oh, Empire Flippers. >> Oh, Empire Flippers. >> Oh, Empire Flippers. >> Yes. Empire Flippers do a really good

>> Yes. Empire Flippers do a really good >> Yes. Empire Flippers do a really good job of checking to see if anything's

job of checking to see if anything's job of checking to see if anything's been manipulated and stuff like that as

been manipulated and stuff like that as been manipulated and stuff like that as well. well. well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, always do your due diligence.

>> So, yeah, always do your due diligence. >> So, yeah, always do your due diligence. >> Yeah, it's something we're trying to do >> Yeah, it's something we're trying to do >> Yeah, it's something we're trying to do because we're building a tool that maps

because we're building a tool that maps because we're building a tool that maps affiliates linking to operators using a

affiliates linking to operators using a affiliates linking to operators using a tracking link. So, I know personally

tracking link. So, I know personally tracking link. So, I know personally that a lot of affiliate managers, they

that a lot of affiliate managers, they that a lot of affiliate managers, they they're not all using hrefs. Like, it's

they're not all using hrefs. Like, it's they're not all using hrefs. Like, it's probably 10% at best. And that's even

probably 10% at best. And that's even probably 10% at best. And that's even generous. And then when they have hrefs,

generous. And then when they have hrefs, generous. And then when they have hrefs, it's like, how do they use it? So, I it's like, how do they use it? So, I it's like, how do they use it? So, I know they're not always on top of this.

know they're not always on top of this. know they're not always on top of this. So, I've been in the space where it's So, I've been in the space where it's So, I've been in the space where it's I'm buying links and I have these people

I'm buying links and I have these people I'm buying links and I have these people offering lowquality links all the time.

offering lowquality links all the time. offering lowquality links all the time. So, it's they get sales because you can

So, it's they get sales because you can So, it's they get sales because you can actually see sites linking to another

actually see sites linking to another actually see sites linking to another and you're like, I can't believe this and you're like, I can't believe this and you're like, I can't believe this still makes money. And today, it's still

still makes money. And today, it's still still makes money. And today, it's still happening. happening. happening. >> I mean, with those guys, because I

>> I mean, with those guys, because I >> I mean, with those guys, because I probably I could probably open up my

probably I could probably open up my probably I could probably open up my email right now and it's 100 p.m. in the

email right now and it's 100 p.m. in the email right now and it's 100 p.m. in the UK. Probably had five of those emails

UK. Probably had five of those emails UK. Probably had five of those emails already

already already with those guys. I think it's just a

with those guys. I think it's just a with those guys. I think it's just a numbers game. Like I I honestly think

numbers game. Like I I honestly think numbers game. Like I I honestly think they must send out like maybe

they must send out like maybe they must send out like maybe anything from 500 to 5,000 emails a day

anything from 500 to 5,000 emails a day anything from 500 to 5,000 emails a day and they're like their conversion rate

and they're like their conversion rate and they're like their conversion rate must be like so low. It's like probably

must be like so low. It's like probably must be like so low. It's like probably 0.003%

0.003% 0.003% but when you're doing it at that scale

but when you're doing it at that scale but when you're doing it at that scale it probably makes sense for them and a

it probably makes sense for them and a it probably makes sense for them and a lot of them are like overseas and stuff

lot of them are like overseas and stuff lot of them are like overseas and stuff like that. So if they can sell maybe I

like that. So if they can sell maybe I like that. So if they can sell maybe I don't know four or five links at $600

don't know four or five links at $600 don't know four or five links at $600 700 a day that's a really good earning

700 a day that's a really good earning 700 a day that's a really good earning in India and stuff like that.

in India and stuff like that. in India and stuff like that. >> That's a career. >> That's a career. >> That's a career. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay. So, you mentioned that nav boost

Okay. So, you mentioned that nav boost Okay. So, you mentioned that nav boost is important. So, I have an idea of what

is important. So, I have an idea of what is important. So, I have an idea of what it is just from reading some of these it is just from reading some of these it is just from reading some of these books and listening to guys like you,

books and listening to guys like you, books and listening to guys like you, James, and Carl Hudson talk about it.

James, and Carl Hudson talk about it. James, and Carl Hudson talk about it. So, what is it and how do we measure it

So, what is it and how do we measure it So, what is it and how do we measure it for a site and deciding if we want to

for a site and deciding if we want to for a site and deciding if we want to get a link from it, if that's even we

get a link from it, if that's even we get a link from it, if that's even we want to go down that rabbit hole?

want to go down that rabbit hole? want to go down that rabbit hole? >> Yeah. So, I actually done a video on

>> Yeah. So, I actually done a video on >> Yeah. So, I actually done a video on this like maybe two or three days ago.

this like maybe two or three days ago. this like maybe two or three days ago. It's going to go in like a course I'm

It's going to go in like a course I'm It's going to go in like a course I'm giving away for free, but Nav Boost is

giving away for free, but Nav Boost is giving away for free, but Nav Boost is basically

basically basically the visitors that have been on your

the visitors that have been on your the visitors that have been on your website. For anyone that doesn't know

website. For anyone that doesn't know website. For anyone that doesn't know what Nav Boost is in its simplest form,

what Nav Boost is in its simplest form, what Nav Boost is in its simplest form, basically Google came out recent or

basically Google came out recent or basically Google came out recent or maybe not recently, but maybe a year ago

maybe not recently, but maybe a year ago maybe not recently, but maybe a year ago and said, "No, we don't use Nav Boost is

and said, "No, we don't use Nav Boost is and said, "No, we don't use Nav Boost is it's completely made up blahy blahy

it's completely made up blahy blahy it's completely made up blahy blahy blah." And then they got a lawsuit,

blah." And then they got a lawsuit, blah." And then they got a lawsuit, which I still think they might be which I still think they might be which I still think they might be battling today. I I could be wrong in

battling today. I I could be wrong in battling today. I I could be wrong in saying that but then Nav Boost actually

saying that but then Nav Boost actually saying that but then Nav Boost actually got mentioned then and they like the

got mentioned then and they like the got mentioned then and they like the Google CEO whoever was at court from

Google CEO whoever was at court from Google CEO whoever was at court from Google's end they basically said yes we

Google's end they basically said yes we Google's end they basically said yes we do use Nav Boost. Now Nav Boost is

do use Nav Boost. Now Nav Boost is do use Nav Boost. Now Nav Boost is basically

basically basically it tracks the type of person that visits

it tracks the type of person that visits it tracks the type of person that visits your website and also how long they

your website and also how long they your website and also how long they visit it for what they do on the

visit it for what they do on the visit it for what they do on the website. So for example, if somebody

website. So for example, if somebody website. So for example, if somebody goes on to or somebody searches best

goes on to or somebody searches best goes on to or somebody searches best affiliate status tracker tool, right?

affiliate status tracker tool, right? affiliate status tracker tool, right? And let's say stats drone is number one

And let's say stats drone is number one And let's say stats drone is number one and a lot of people click on that and

and a lot of people click on that and and a lot of people click on that and then they bounce off and then they go to

then they bounce off and then they go to then they bounce off and then they go to number two and then they stay on that

number two and then they stay on that number two and then they stay on that number two result for a much longer

number two result for a much longer number two result for a much longer period of time. Basically, that's

period of time. Basically, that's period of time. Basically, that's telling Google that Statone provided

telling Google that Statone provided telling Google that Statone provided like a bad user experience on the site

like a bad user experience on the site like a bad user experience on the site and then they need to go and find more

and then they need to go and find more and then they need to go and find more websites like position number two. So

websites like position number two. So websites like position number two. So then at that point, Google would then at that point, Google would then at that point, Google would basically penalize you and maybe drop

basically penalize you and maybe drop basically penalize you and maybe drop you f from position number one to

you f from position number one to you f from position number one to position number six. So that's basically

position number six. So that's basically position number six. So that's basically what nav boost is. Now where Google

what nav boost is. Now where Google what nav boost is. Now where Google basically got in trouble for it is how

basically got in trouble for it is how basically got in trouble for it is how they got access to the data. So

they got access to the data. So they got access to the data. So basically a lot of people just end up

basically a lot of people just end up basically a lot of people just end up forgetting that Google owns Chrome,

forgetting that Google owns Chrome, forgetting that Google owns Chrome, >> right? So like >> right? So like >> right? So like >> they they own Chrome, they own the >> they they own Chrome, they own the >> they they own Chrome, they own the Chrome store. A lot of the actual Chrome

Chrome store. A lot of the actual Chrome Chrome store. A lot of the actual Chrome extensions also they either own or they

extensions also they either own or they extensions also they either own or they partially own or there's just a lot like

partially own or there's just a lot like partially own or there's just a lot like data leaks where they can get access

data leaks where they can get access data leaks where they can get access from it. Everyone kind of thinks

from it. Everyone kind of thinks from it. Everyone kind of thinks Google's a really cleancut company and

Google's a really cleancut company and Google's a really cleancut company and stuff like that, but when it comes to

stuff like that, but when it comes to stuff like that, but when it comes to trying to get as much data as possible,

trying to get as much data as possible, trying to get as much data as possible, that's where they get their data. And on

that's where they get their data. And on that's where they get their data. And on top of that, they also own Android as

top of that, they also own Android as top of that, they also own Android as well. So they've got a lot of different

well. So they've got a lot of different well. So they've got a lot of different data points to basically pinpoint, okay,

data points to basically pinpoint, okay, data points to basically pinpoint, okay, this type of user didn't like this type

this type of user didn't like this type this type of user didn't like this type of eye gaming website. Which type of eye

of eye gaming website. Which type of eye of eye gaming website. Which type of eye gaming websites did they like? Okay, gaming websites did they like? Okay, gaming websites did they like? Okay, they like, let's say, casino.org, right?

they like, let's say, casino.org, right? they like, let's say, casino.org, right? We're going to go and find more websites

We're going to go and find more websites We're going to go and find more websites like casino.org to fulfill that the

like casino.org to fulfill that the like casino.org to fulfill that the search results page of between 1 to 10.

search results page of between 1 to 10. search results page of between 1 to 10. So that's where they kind of got in

So that's where they kind of got in So that's where they kind of got in trouble with with Nav Boost. And also

trouble with with Nav Boost. And also trouble with with Nav Boost. And also another thing that kind of makes it a

another thing that kind of makes it a another thing that kind of makes it a little bit more difficult for SEOs, Nav

little bit more difficult for SEOs, Nav little bit more difficult for SEOs, Nav Boost is stored for 13 months. So let's

Boost is stored for 13 months. So let's Boost is stored for 13 months. So let's say you got hit by a Google algorithm

say you got hit by a Google algorithm say you got hit by a Google algorithm update.

update. update. You would essentially or not in all

You would essentially or not in all You would essentially or not in all cases, but in some cases, you might need

cases, but in some cases, you might need cases, but in some cases, you might need to get another fresh 13 months worth of

to get another fresh 13 months worth of to get another fresh 13 months worth of data for Google to recover your website.

data for Google to recover your website. data for Google to recover your website. I I'm hoping I've explained that in in

I I'm hoping I've explained that in in I I'm hoping I've explained that in in its in its simplest form because it can

its in its simplest form because it can its in its simplest form because it can be a bit of a minefield. Yeah, that's

be a bit of a minefield. Yeah, that's be a bit of a minefield. Yeah, that's Navus in its simplest form.

Navus in its simplest form. Navus in its simplest form. >> Yeah, you're right. I've learned from

>> Yeah, you're right. I've learned from >> Yeah, you're right. I've learned from listening to you guys talk about this

listening to you guys talk about this listening to you guys talk about this where it's like we do forget like

where it's like we do forget like where it's like we do forget like Chrome, this is a lot of data. Are they

Chrome, this is a lot of data. Are they Chrome, this is a lot of data. Are they using this? And it's just following you

using this? And it's just following you using this? And it's just following you guys on Facebook, I've learned quite a guys on Facebook, I've learned quite a guys on Facebook, I've learned quite a bit about click manipulation like volume

bit about click manipulation like volume bit about click manipulation like volume and then obviously the snav boost is

and then obviously the snav boost is and then obviously the snav boost is important. So, I've been saying for a

important. So, I've been saying for a important. So, I've been saying for a long time that I think user experience

long time that I think user experience long time that I think user experience has always been important because it's a

has always been important because it's a has always been important because it's a weird signal for SEO. It's, hey, is this

weird signal for SEO. It's, hey, is this weird signal for SEO. It's, hey, is this what's going to correlate for a bounce

what's going to correlate for a bounce what's going to correlate for a bounce rate? If you've got a welldesigned site

rate? If you've got a welldesigned site rate? If you've got a welldesigned site and a good layout, obviously with good

and a good layout, obviously with good and a good layout, obviously with good content, I think you're going to you're

content, I think you're going to you're content, I think you're going to you're going to keep people happy. That's the going to keep people happy. That's the going to keep people happy. That's the whole point. whole point. whole point. >> Yeah. So, this is like one thing that I

>> Yeah. So, this is like one thing that I >> Yeah. So, this is like one thing that I kind of said before when I was saying

kind of said before when I was saying kind of said before when I was saying like don't just upload like a wall of

like don't just upload like a wall of like don't just upload like a wall of content because nobody I don't know

content because nobody I don't know content because nobody I don't know about yourself, John, but I don't

about yourself, John, but I don't about yourself, John, but I don't particularly like reading 6,000 words of

particularly like reading 6,000 words of particularly like reading 6,000 words of content cuz a lot of the time it's just

content cuz a lot of the time it's just content cuz a lot of the time it's just mumbo jumbo. But if you're actually able

mumbo jumbo. But if you're actually able mumbo jumbo. But if you're actually able to use certain elements on within your

to use certain elements on within your to use certain elements on within your website, like for example on Am I able

website, like for example on Am I able website, like for example on Am I able to share my screen? Is that okay?

to share my screen? Is that okay? to share my screen? Is that okay? >> Yeah, go ahead. We will do share screen

>> Yeah, go ahead. We will do share screen >> Yeah, go ahead. We will do share screen entire.

entire. entire. So there's a lot of websites that Oh

So there's a lot of websites that Oh So there's a lot of websites that Oh yeah, there we go. Perfect. So I

yeah, there we go. Perfect. So I yeah, there we go. Perfect. So I recently redone my website and I've got

recently redone my website and I've got recently redone my website and I've got just certain elements in inside this

just certain elements in inside this just certain elements in inside this website where it just makes it like

website where it just makes it like website where it just makes it like easier to scan read. So for example,

easier to scan read. So for example, easier to scan read. So for example, I've done this article to do with the

I've done this article to do with the I've done this article to do with the best SEO tools and we've got like

best SEO tools and we've got like best SEO tools and we've got like certain elements in here where like

certain elements in here where like certain elements in here where like people need to physically click. So for

people need to physically click. So for people need to physically click. So for example, what did Charles float say when

example, what did Charles float say when example, what did Charles float say when he wanted to when he was evaluating the

he wanted to when he was evaluating the he wanted to when he was evaluating the keywords insight SEO tool, right? So

keywords insight SEO tool, right? So keywords insight SEO tool, right? So there's certain tools where if you're a

there's certain tools where if you're a there's certain tools where if you're a user, you actually need to scroll down

user, you actually need to scroll down user, you actually need to scroll down and you need to click certain elements.

and you need to click certain elements. and you need to click certain elements. Now, I'm not saying go and hide load the

Now, I'm not saying go and hide load the Now, I'm not saying go and hide load the content, but making certain that like

content, but making certain that like content, but making certain that like you highlight important text, making

you highlight important text, making you highlight important text, making certain that you bold certain keywords,

certain that you bold certain keywords, certain that you bold certain keywords, making certain that like you've got an

making certain that like you've got an making certain that like you've got an accordion within your content can

accordion within your content can accordion within your content can definitely help. And it's also a lot

definitely help. And it's also a lot definitely help. And it's also a lot easier to like scan read as well. Like I

easier to like scan read as well. Like I easier to like scan read as well. Like I just I personally just don't like big

just I personally just don't like big just I personally just don't like big walls of content. Like I could have walls of content. Like I could have walls of content. Like I could have easily just uploaded this article with a

easily just uploaded this article with a easily just uploaded this article with a big block of content, but if I don't

big block of content, but if I don't big block of content, but if I don't like it, I'm going to assume that my

like it, I'm going to assume that my like it, I'm going to assume that my users probably reading this won't like

users probably reading this won't like users probably reading this won't like it as well. And this is like one thing

it as well. And this is like one thing it as well. And this is like one thing that I see a lot of like eye gaming SEO

that I see a lot of like eye gaming SEO that I see a lot of like eye gaming SEO sites do as well where they'll have

sites do as well where they'll have sites do as well where they'll have they'll have a screen or they'll have a

they'll have a screen or they'll have a they'll have a screen or they'll have a page to the best slot sites and you can

page to the best slot sites and you can page to the best slot sites and you can very quickly like filter through. Okay,

very quickly like filter through. Okay, very quickly like filter through. Okay, yes, I'm on the best slot sites page,

yes, I'm on the best slot sites page, yes, I'm on the best slot sites page, but I only want to see slot brands that

but I only want to see slot brands that but I only want to see slot brands that only accept Mastercard. You click one

only accept Mastercard. You click one only accept Mastercard. You click one button and then instead of displaying,

button and then instead of displaying, button and then instead of displaying, let's say, 60 slot sites, it's showing

let's say, 60 slot sites, it's showing let's say, 60 slot sites, it's showing you now 12 or it's showing you maybe

you now 12 or it's showing you maybe you now 12 or it's showing you maybe five that accept PayPal. So adding like

five that accept PayPal. So adding like five that accept PayPal. So adding like certain elements like that can

certain elements like that can certain elements like that can definitely help with the UI and UX. Like

definitely help with the UI and UX. Like definitely help with the UI and UX. Like I even myself, speaking for myself, like

I even myself, speaking for myself, like I even myself, speaking for myself, like I've purposely clicked on to websites

I've purposely clicked on to websites I've purposely clicked on to websites that I know have given me a good user

that I know have given me a good user that I know have given me a good user experience before because they've got

experience before because they've got experience before because they've got like a good filtering process or maybe

like a good filtering process or maybe like a good filtering process or maybe they've got like a nice readable list,

they've got like a nice readable list, they've got like a nice readable list, for example. So just making certain that

for example. So just making certain that for example. So just making certain that you're doing stuff like that can

you're doing stuff like that can you're doing stuff like that can definitely help within your content. So

definitely help within your content. So definitely help within your content. So when people say SEO is dead,

when people say SEO is dead, when people say SEO is dead, I would say that lazy SEO is dead. But

I would say that lazy SEO is dead. But I would say that lazy SEO is dead. But if you're actually doing like all this

if you're actually doing like all this if you're actually doing like all this stuff, then SEO is alive more than it's

stuff, then SEO is alive more than it's stuff, then SEO is alive more than it's ever been before. ever been before. ever been before. >> Yeah. My my personal learning to try to

>> Yeah. My my personal learning to try to >> Yeah. My my personal learning to try to like take what you said and think about

like take what you said and think about like take what you said and think about it in a different way is that I think

it in a different way is that I think it in a different way is that I think the role of product or product owner has

the role of product or product owner has the role of product or product owner has actually become more important because

actually become more important because actually become more important because it's like what you're doing is you're it's like what you're doing is you're it's like what you're doing is you're doing product work. You're like, how do doing product work. You're like, how do doing product work. You're like, how do I take this 6,000word content that's a

I take this 6,000word content that's a I take this 6,000word content that's a wall of text and make it so it's

wall of text and make it so it's wall of text and make it so it's interactive, digestible, and you're

interactive, digestible, and you're interactive, digestible, and you're right, people scan before they read. We

right, people scan before they read. We right, people scan before they read. We know this, but know this, but know this, but >> for some reason the web masters keep

>> for some reason the web masters keep >> for some reason the web masters keep doing 6,000 word. Like even if they get

doing 6,000 word. Like even if they get doing 6,000 word. Like even if they get to 6,000, that's being generous for most

to 6,000, that's being generous for most to 6,000, that's being generous for most of them, but if they do get to 6,000,

of them, but if they do get to 6,000, of them, but if they do get to 6,000, it's Yeah. It's not fun. There's nothing

it's Yeah. It's not fun. There's nothing it's Yeah. It's not fun. There's nothing exciting. exciting. exciting. >> Yeah. It's a long day for the reader.

>> Yeah. It's a long day for the reader. >> Yeah. It's a long day for the reader. That's what it is.

That's what it is. That's what it is. >> Yeah. So, continuing with the book in

>> Yeah. So, continuing with the book in >> Yeah. So, continuing with the book in the chapter you did, I read that. It was

the chapter you did, I read that. It was the chapter you did, I read that. It was excellent. So, this isn't a question.

excellent. So, this isn't a question. excellent. So, this isn't a question. It's just basically a thank you tip It's just basically a thank you tip It's just basically a thank you tip where I feel guilty. I'm like, "Yeah, I

where I feel guilty. I'm like, "Yeah, I where I feel guilty. I'm like, "Yeah, I should be doing more of this." you wrote

should be doing more of this." you wrote should be doing more of this." you wrote to use Google Search Console to find

to use Google Search Console to find to use Google Search Console to find pages that you want to boost. So, ones

pages that you want to boost. So, ones pages that you want to boost. So, ones that are they're close to the first page that are they're close to the first page that are they're close to the first page or maybe they're in position five and

or maybe they're in position five and or maybe they're in position five and just do internal linking. I read this

just do internal linking. I read this just do internal linking. I read this and I be like, "Oh man, I've got so much and I be like, "Oh man, I've got so much and I be like, "Oh man, I've got so much work to do." work to do." work to do." >> Yeah. So, one piece of advice or one

>> Yeah. So, one piece of advice or one >> Yeah. So, one piece of advice or one added piece of advice, and I thought of

added piece of advice, and I thought of added piece of advice, and I thought of this after the book got published

this after the book got published this after the book got published because a lot of people would read that

because a lot of people would read that because a lot of people would read that and be like, "Okay, I need 16 internal

and be like, "Okay, I need 16 internal and be like, "Okay, I need 16 internal links for all my pages." You want to

links for all my pages." You want to links for all my pages." You want to internal link when it makes sense. So

internal link when it makes sense. So internal link when it makes sense. So for example, on that best SEO tools page

for example, on that best SEO tools page for example, on that best SEO tools page that I was showing you, I might be

that I was showing you, I might be that I was showing you, I might be talking about a content writing tool and

talking about a content writing tool and talking about a content writing tool and it helps with topical authority, right?

it helps with topical authority, right? it helps with topical authority, right? And I might say, okay, John Wright has

And I might say, okay, John Wright has And I might say, okay, John Wright has this brilliant content writing tool. It

this brilliant content writing tool. It this brilliant content writing tool. It helps with topical authority because it

helps with topical authority because it helps with topical authority because it got mentioned by XY Z users, right, that

got mentioned by XY Z users, right, that got mentioned by XY Z users, right, that I asked the question from. But when I

I asked the question from. But when I I asked the question from. But when I mention topical authority, I might do

mention topical authority, I might do mention topical authority, I might do another page to do with topical

another page to do with topical another page to do with topical authority and then internal link to

authority and then internal link to authority and then internal link to topical authority or I might have a

topical authority or I might have a topical authority or I might have a little bit of context saying by the way

little bit of context saying by the way little bit of context saying by the way if you don't know what topical authority if you don't know what topical authority if you don't know what topical authority is click through to this article and

is click through to this article and is click through to this article and read it. Whereas a lot of people again

read it. Whereas a lot of people again read it. Whereas a lot of people again they do lazy internal linking where

they do lazy internal linking where they do lazy internal linking where they'll literally just do controlf and

they'll literally just do controlf and they'll literally just do controlf and they'll say okay I mention topical

they'll say okay I mention topical they'll say okay I mention topical authority five times on this page. I'm

authority five times on this page. I'm authority five times on this page. I'm going to internal link from three of going to internal link from three of going to internal link from three of these and it might not even make sense these and it might not even make sense these and it might not even make sense to internal link. So

to internal link. So to internal link. So what you always want to make certain what you always want to make certain what you always want to make certain when you are doing like any internal

when you are doing like any internal when you are doing like any internal linking work is it's actually adding

linking work is it's actually adding linking work is it's actually adding more context. So one website that does

more context. So one website that does more context. So one website that does this really well is Wikipedia. And I

this really well is Wikipedia. And I this really well is Wikipedia. And I don't know if you've ever played this

don't know if you've ever played this don't know if you've ever played this game like I I got taught it like back in

game like I I got taught it like back in game like I I got taught it like back in high school. It was called the Wikipedia

high school. It was called the Wikipedia high school. It was called the Wikipedia game, right? So you could go on to any

game, right? So you could go on to any game, right? So you could go on to any page. Let's say we were on the Wikipedia

page. Let's say we were on the Wikipedia page. Let's say we were on the Wikipedia page for Spain and you could give me a

page for Spain and you could give me a page for Spain and you could give me a person or a place or someone or piece of

person or a place or someone or piece of person or a place or someone or piece of history and I would be able to get click

history and I would be able to get click history and I would be able to get click through to that person. So let's say for

through to that person. So let's say for through to that person. So let's say for example we're on Spain's Wikipedia page

example we're on Spain's Wikipedia page example we're on Spain's Wikipedia page and you might say Justin Bieber the

and you might say Justin Bieber the and you might say Justin Bieber the singer. So I could probably say okay

singer. So I could probably say okay singer. So I could probably say okay Spain's in Europe's in NATO. Who else is

Spain's in Europe's in NATO. Who else is Spain's in Europe's in NATO. Who else is in NATO? Canada. Justin Bieber's from

in NATO? Canada. Justin Bieber's from in NATO? Canada. Justin Bieber's from Canada. I might there might be like a

Canada. I might there might be like a Canada. I might there might be like a famous musician's page that I can go to

famous musician's page that I can go to famous musician's page that I can go to and then I can find Justin Bieber.

and then I can find Justin Bieber. and then I can find Justin Bieber. Although you can't directly go from the

Although you can't directly go from the Although you can't directly go from the Spain page to Justin Bieber's page,

Spain page to Justin Bieber's page, Spain page to Justin Bieber's page, there is always a way to get around the

there is always a way to get around the there is always a way to get around the website very naturally. That's what I

website very naturally. That's what I website very naturally. That's what I would recommend when it comes to like

would recommend when it comes to like would recommend when it comes to like internal linking. Be more like

internal linking. Be more like internal linking. Be more like Wikipedia. And also don't have too many

Wikipedia. And also don't have too many Wikipedia. And also don't have too many internal links either where because then

internal links either where because then internal links either where because then it just gets really confusing.

it just gets really confusing. it just gets really confusing. >> Yeah. internal link for the right

>> Yeah. internal link for the right >> Yeah. internal link for the right reasons, not the wrong one, which is I

reasons, not the wrong one, which is I reasons, not the wrong one, which is I think most people are using the wrong

think most people are using the wrong think most people are using the wrong ones where there's already WordPress

ones where there's already WordPress ones where there's already WordPress plugins that will basically autogenerate

plugins that will basically autogenerate plugins that will basically autogenerate everything. Like I want to do some

everything. Like I want to do some everything. Like I want to do some programmatic internal linking, but only

programmatic internal linking, but only programmatic internal linking, but only when it makes sense. when it makes sense. when it makes sense. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Brilliant. So, I've done backtoback

>> Brilliant. So, I've done backtoback >> Brilliant. So, I've done backtoback panels or I did one in SBC Malta and

panels or I did one in SBC Malta and panels or I did one in SBC Malta and I've got one coming up for SBC Lisbon,

I've got one coming up for SBC Lisbon, I've got one coming up for SBC Lisbon, which hopefully I'll see you there. I'm

which hopefully I'll see you there. I'm which hopefully I'll see you there. I'm moderating the future of affiliate moderating the future of affiliate moderating the future of affiliate marketing and everyone's panicking. Like

marketing and everyone's panicking. Like marketing and everyone's panicking. Like I've talked to potential customers where

I've talked to potential customers where I've talked to potential customers where they're basically like not only can I

they're basically like not only can I they're basically like not only can I not use your software, it's like we

not use your software, it's like we not use your software, it's like we don't have the budget anymore because we

don't have the budget anymore because we don't have the budget anymore because we just got absolutely destroyed. So it's

just got absolutely destroyed. So it's just got absolutely destroyed. So it's the question I get asked over and over

the question I get asked over and over the question I get asked over and over again. What is the future of affiliate

again. What is the future of affiliate again. What is the future of affiliate marketing? How do affiliates battle

marketing? How do affiliates battle marketing? How do affiliates battle this?

this? this? >> Yeah. So, we were talking about this

>> Yeah. So, we were talking about this >> Yeah. So, we were talking about this before where

before where before where I tend to see this as being like a gold

I tend to see this as being like a gold I tend to see this as being like a gold mine for me personally cuz everyone else

mine for me personally cuz everyone else mine for me personally cuz everyone else is, oh, I'm too scared to touch

is, oh, I'm too scared to touch is, oh, I'm too scared to touch affiliate now. It's too up and down.

affiliate now. It's too up and down. affiliate now. It's too up and down. SEO's been hit or whatever. I'm almost

SEO's been hit or whatever. I'm almost SEO's been hit or whatever. I'm almost kind of brilliant. There's more piece of

kind of brilliant. There's more piece of kind of brilliant. There's more piece of the pie for me. So, that that's one way

the pie for me. So, that that's one way the pie for me. So, that that's one way to think of it. But then not only that

to think of it. But then not only that to think of it. But then not only that as well is

as well is as well is let's say for example if I've got Casra

let's say for example if I've got Casra let's say for example if I've got Casra Gaming, right? It's a slot site and

Gaming, right? It's a slot site and Gaming, right? It's a slot site and I decide to onboard 50 or 60 affiliates

I decide to onboard 50 or 60 affiliates I decide to onboard 50 or 60 affiliates to do reviews, to do videos, to do UGC

to do reviews, to do videos, to do UGC to do reviews, to do videos, to do UGC content, what whatever else.

content, what whatever else. content, what whatever else. One thing that a lot of people are now

One thing that a lot of people are now One thing that a lot of people are now looking at is how to how do I rank my

looking at is how to how do I rank my looking at is how to how do I rank my brand in chat GBT or claude and stuff

brand in chat GBT or claude and stuff brand in chat GBT or claude and stuff like that by having all these affiliates

like that by having all these affiliates like that by having all these affiliates talking about you. So you should almost

talking about you. So you should almost talking about you. So you should almost leverage the affiliate marketers to say,

leverage the affiliate marketers to say, leverage the affiliate marketers to say, "Okay, there's been 42 different

"Okay, there's been 42 different "Okay, there's been 42 different affiliates that have said Casra Gambling

affiliates that have said Casra Gambling affiliates that have said Casra Gambling is the best slots provider or the best

is the best slots provider or the best is the best slots provider or the best slot website in the UK." Guess what?

slot website in the UK." Guess what? slot website in the UK." Guess what? ChatGBT, Claude, OpenAI, Gemini, all of

ChatGBT, Claude, OpenAI, Gemini, all of ChatGBT, Claude, OpenAI, Gemini, all of those websites are going to be able to

those websites are going to be able to those websites are going to be able to read all of that affiliate content

read all of that affiliate content read all of that affiliate content saying how great I am or how bad I am as

saying how great I am or how bad I am as saying how great I am or how bad I am as well. well. well. >> But you should you should always be

>> But you should you should always be >> But you should you should always be making certain that you've got making certain that you've got making certain that you've got affiliates like that. That's one thing

affiliates like that. That's one thing affiliates like that. That's one thing that I'm actually doing right now for

that I'm actually doing right now for that I'm actually doing right now for the masterminders. Like I I'm on

the masterminders. Like I I'm on the masterminders. Like I I'm on boarding affiliates to say, "Okay, if

boarding affiliates to say, "Okay, if boarding affiliates to say, "Okay, if you bring a friend, it's going to be

you bring a friend, it's going to be you bring a friend, it's going to be you're going to get X amount because if

you're going to get X amount because if you're going to get X amount because if you provide a good service, why wouldn't

you provide a good service, why wouldn't you provide a good service, why wouldn't somebody actually recommend you to their

somebody actually recommend you to their somebody actually recommend you to their friends?" friends?" friends?" >> Yeah, that's that puts everything into

>> Yeah, that's that puts everything into >> Yeah, that's that puts everything into context like why awards are becoming in

context like why awards are becoming in context like why awards are becoming in my opinion more important as time goes

my opinion more important as time goes my opinion more important as time goes on. Testimonials, reviews, user

on. Testimonials, reviews, user on. Testimonials, reviews, user generated content. we knew that these

generated content. we knew that these generated content. we knew that these things were important, but it looks like

things were important, but it looks like things were important, but it looks like it's that's being amplified. And for

it's that's being amplified. And for it's that's being amplified. And for some reason, I just see a lot of these

some reason, I just see a lot of these some reason, I just see a lot of these same affiliate sites not incorporating

same affiliate sites not incorporating same affiliate sites not incorporating any of that. They're just like, as you

any of that. They're just like, as you any of that. They're just like, as you said, they're like SEO's dead and said, they're like SEO's dead and said, they're like SEO's dead and affiliate marketing's dead. And if that

affiliate marketing's dead. And if that affiliate marketing's dead. And if that were true, I think we we would see a lot

were true, I think we we would see a lot were true, I think we we would see a lot less of these conferences and I gaming,

less of these conferences and I gaming, less of these conferences and I gaming, but we see more of them.

but we see more of them. but we see more of them. >> Yeah, it's Yeah, like even SPC's got

>> Yeah, it's Yeah, like even SPC's got >> Yeah, it's Yeah, like even SPC's got like an awards night, one of the nights

like an awards night, one of the nights like an awards night, one of the nights where I'm sure, what was it now that I

where I'm sure, what was it now that I where I'm sure, what was it now that I spoke at? Affiliate World in Dubai does

spoke at? Affiliate World in Dubai does spoke at? Affiliate World in Dubai does the same as well.

the same as well. the same as well. Yeah, like just again it goes back to

Yeah, like just again it goes back to Yeah, like just again it goes back to running an actual brand as opposed to

running an actual brand as opposed to running an actual brand as opposed to just running a website.

just running a website. just running a website. >> Yeah. And so I want to finish off by

>> Yeah. And so I want to finish off by >> Yeah. And so I want to finish off by asking what do you see the future of asking what do you see the future of asking what do you see the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects

affiliate marketing as it intersects affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence?

with business intelligence? with business intelligence? I think it's going to become a lot more

I think it's going to become a lot more I think it's going to become a lot more important. Like the thing is it's going

important. Like the thing is it's going important. Like the thing is it's going to become a lot more important to the

to become a lot more important to the to become a lot more important to the ones that take

ones that take ones that take that basically start to take action

that basically start to take action that basically start to take action today as opposed to the guys that are

today as opposed to the guys that are today as opposed to the guys that are going to be like, "Oh, I've not got the going to be like, "Oh, I've not got the going to be like, "Oh, I've not got the budget or whatever else." Because again,

budget or whatever else." Because again, budget or whatever else." Because again, once some of these guys, let's say for

once some of these guys, let's say for once some of these guys, let's say for example, if we're competitors, right, example, if we're competitors, right, example, if we're competitors, right, and I'm the one that's being a little and I'm the one that's being a little and I'm the one that's being a little bit tight fisted and I'm like, "I've not bit tight fisted and I'm like, "I've not bit tight fisted and I'm like, "I've not got the budget." But if you're going on

got the budget." But if you're going on got the budget." But if you're going on board, let's say 60 or 100 affiliates

board, let's say 60 or 100 affiliates board, let's say 60 or 100 affiliates all talking about your brand,

all talking about your brand, all talking about your brand, it's going to be very difficult for me

it's going to be very difficult for me it's going to be very difficult for me to rank in in Chad GBT and Claude GEO or

to rank in in Chad GBT and Claude GEO or to rank in in Chad GBT and Claude GEO or what whatever else people are calling I

what whatever else people are calling I what whatever else people are calling I just think is good SEO, right? But by

just think is good SEO, right? But by just think is good SEO, right? But by the time you've onboarded all those

the time you've onboarded all those the time you've onboarded all those affiliates and every one of them have

affiliates and every one of them have affiliates and every one of them have maybe a video talking about your brand

maybe a video talking about your brand maybe a video talking about your brand or maybe they've done blog content like

or maybe they've done blog content like or maybe they've done blog content like review pages and stuff like that and

review pages and stuff like that and review pages and stuff like that and they're linking back to you and stuff.

they're linking back to you and stuff. they're linking back to you and stuff. By the time I'm onboarded, let's say

By the time I'm onboarded, let's say By the time I'm onboarded, let's say another 50 to try and reach it, catch up

another 50 to try and reach it, catch up another 50 to try and reach it, catch up to you, you've probably got double that.

to you, you've probably got double that. to you, you've probably got double that. So, I almost see that affiliate

So, I almost see that affiliate So, I almost see that affiliate marketing,

marketing, marketing, especially for the brands and stuff like

especially for the brands and stuff like especially for the brands and stuff like that, is kind of went like back to zero,

that, is kind of went like back to zero, that, is kind of went like back to zero, like ground zero, because everyone's now

like ground zero, because everyone's now like ground zero, because everyone's now focusing on, okay, yes, I care about

focusing on, okay, yes, I care about focusing on, okay, yes, I care about Google and SEO, but how do I also get my

Google and SEO, but how do I also get my Google and SEO, but how do I also get my brand into all the chat GBTs and stuff

brand into all the chat GBTs and stuff brand into all the chat GBTs and stuff like that of the world? And it's like

like that of the world? And it's like like that of the world? And it's like just by on boarding like 50 or maybe

just by on boarding like 50 or maybe just by on boarding like 50 or maybe even not 50 but let's say just 10

even not 50 but let's say just 10 even not 50 but let's say just 10 affiliates talking about your brand that

affiliates talking about your brand that affiliates talking about your brand that can definitely expedite the actual the

can definitely expedite the actual the can definitely expedite the actual the time of you not ranking to the time that

time of you not ranking to the time that time of you not ranking to the time that you are ranking in all the AI overviews

you are ranking in all the AI overviews you are ranking in all the AI overviews and stuff. and stuff. and stuff. >> Yeah, I I think we're trying to do a bit

>> Yeah, I I think we're trying to do a bit >> Yeah, I I think we're trying to do a bit more of that but I think we actually more of that but I think we actually more of that but I think we actually need to be extremely proactive. It's I

need to be extremely proactive. It's I need to be extremely proactive. It's I think we actually have a head start in think we actually have a head start in think we actually have a head start in the AI overview game where if you start

the AI overview game where if you start the AI overview game where if you start asking for certain questions like a lot asking for certain questions like a lot asking for certain questions like a lot of our content is being ingested but I

of our content is being ingested but I of our content is being ingested but I know we actually haven't put a lot of

know we actually haven't put a lot of know we actually haven't put a lot of this podcast content into a lot of

this podcast content into a lot of this podcast content into a lot of writing and basically fed it everywhere.

writing and basically fed it everywhere. writing and basically fed it everywhere. So that's on the plan. What's your take

So that's on the plan. What's your take So that's on the plan. What's your take on this concept where I think that

on this concept where I think that on this concept where I think that conversion rate optimization is becoming

conversion rate optimization is becoming conversion rate optimization is becoming more important. So if you had an average

more important. So if you had an average more important. So if you had an average site, you're going to do the things that site, you're going to do the things that site, you're going to do the things that you just showed with your site and it's

you just showed with your site and it's you just showed with your site and it's like our personal dilemma. So, we help

like our personal dilemma. So, we help like our personal dilemma. So, we help affiliates optimize their business. But

affiliates optimize their business. But affiliates optimize their business. But people don't really seem to care about

people don't really seem to care about people don't really seem to care about as much unless we're talking about a as much unless we're talking about a as much unless we're talking about a pain point of we can help you either

pain point of we can help you either pain point of we can help you either make more money or we stop you from

make more money or we stop you from make more money or we stop you from losing money. That's pain and that's

losing money. That's pain and that's losing money. That's pain and that's real. And like I remember just chatting

real. And like I remember just chatting real. And like I remember just chatting with the Louis Grenier where he said with the Louis Grenier where he said with the Louis Grenier where he said when he was selling conversion rate

when he was selling conversion rate when he was selling conversion rate optimization like people weren't buying

optimization like people weren't buying optimization like people weren't buying it. But when you say SEO you're like

it. But when you say SEO you're like it. But when you say SEO you're like it's still optimization. I think the

it's still optimization. I think the it's still optimization. I think the thing with SEO is that people equate it

thing with SEO is that people equate it thing with SEO is that people equate it instantly to I'm getting more traffic

instantly to I'm getting more traffic instantly to I'm getting more traffic from Google. They're not even actually

from Google. They're not even actually from Google. They're not even actually most people thinking optimization. So

most people thinking optimization. So most people thinking optimization. So what's your take on this this challenge

what's your take on this this challenge what's your take on this this challenge we have where in our case our TAM is

we have where in our case our TAM is we have where in our case our TAM is massive but people are problem aware but

massive but people are problem aware but massive but people are problem aware but not solution aware.

not solution aware. not solution aware. >> I have said this before on podcasts I I

>> I have said this before on podcasts I I >> I have said this before on podcasts I I think I have. It's always a lot easier

think I have. It's always a lot easier think I have. It's always a lot easier to double your conversion rate as

to double your conversion rate as to double your conversion rate as opposed to double your SEO traffic. So,

opposed to double your SEO traffic. So, opposed to double your SEO traffic. So, think of if you if stat I don't know

think of if you if stat I don't know think of if you if stat I don't know what how much traffic stats drone get

what how much traffic stats drone get what how much traffic stats drone get gets but let's say you're getting a,000

gets but let's say you're getting a,000 gets but let's say you're getting a,000 visits or actually let's say you're

visits or actually let's say you're visits or actually let's say you're getting 10,000 visits a month to your

getting 10,000 visits a month to your getting 10,000 visits a month to your website. If I came to you and I said

website. If I came to you and I said website. If I came to you and I said John you've got 50,000 to spend.

John you've got 50,000 to spend. John you've got 50,000 to spend. Would you rather try to double your

Would you rather try to double your Would you rather try to double your current conversion rate? Let's say it's

current conversion rate? Let's say it's current conversion rate? Let's say it's at 3% or 1.5%.

at 3% or 1.5%. at 3% or 1.5%. Or would you try and get 20,000 people

Or would you try and get 20,000 people Or would you try and get 20,000 people onto your website? I think I'm I'd like

onto your website? I think I'm I'd like onto your website? I think I'm I'd like to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do

to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do to think you would say, "Yeah, I'd do CRO and try and make it as seamless as

CRO and try and make it as seamless as CRO and try and make it as seamless as possible. Maybe I know that you're not

possible. Maybe I know that you're not possible. Maybe I know that you're not necessarily like an e-commerce store,"

necessarily like an e-commerce store," necessarily like an e-commerce store," but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to

but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to but you might say, "Okay, I'm going to add in like Apple Pay because we've not

add in like Apple Pay because we've not add in like Apple Pay because we've not already got that. We're going to we're

already got that. We're going to we're already got that. We're going to we're going to add upsells onto the checkout.

going to add upsells onto the checkout. going to add upsells onto the checkout. We're going to do X, Y, and Zed." And

We're going to do X, Y, and Zed." And We're going to do X, Y, and Zed." And then boom. That's personally what I

then boom. That's personally what I then boom. That's personally what I would do. For example,

would do. For example, would do. For example, I think I probably spent about three

I think I probably spent about three I think I probably spent about three weeks on the new masterminder site and I

weeks on the new masterminder site and I weeks on the new masterminder site and I I don't do development and stuff, but I

I don't do development and stuff, but I I don't do development and stuff, but I just wanted to make it perfect because I

just wanted to make it perfect because I just wanted to make it perfect because I said if I'm going to spend let's say

said if I'm going to spend let's say said if I'm going to spend let's say 60,000 for ad spend next year or sorry,

60,000 for ad spend next year or sorry, 60,000 for ad spend next year or sorry, I spent about 60,000 this year for ad

I spent about 60,000 this year for ad I spent about 60,000 this year for ad spend, right? I said we're going to

spend, right? I said we're going to spend, right? I said we're going to double the amount of people that are double the amount of people that are double the amount of people that are attending next year. Would I rather

attending next year. Would I rather attending next year. Would I rather spend 120,000

spend 120,000 spend 120,000 next year or would I rather try to spend

next year or would I rather try to spend next year or would I rather try to spend the same amount but have a higher conver

the same amount but have a higher conver the same amount but have a higher conver conversion rate? I think everyone would

conversion rate? I think everyone would conversion rate? I think everyone would say, "Yeah, I'd rather focus on the

say, "Yeah, I'd rather focus on the say, "Yeah, I'd rather focus on the conversion rate optimization site."

conversion rate optimization site." conversion rate optimization site." >> Yeah, I still believe it to be true. I

>> Yeah, I still believe it to be true. I >> Yeah, I still believe it to be true. I think most affiliate marketers out

think most affiliate marketers out think most affiliate marketers out there, they're, as you said before,

there, they're, as you said before, there, they're, as you said before, there's a lazy SEO SEO, there's a lazy

there's a lazy SEO SEO, there's a lazy there's a lazy SEO SEO, there's a lazy affiliate, and I think we're starting to

affiliate, and I think we're starting to affiliate, and I think we're starting to see them shake away. And now maybe for

see them shake away. And now maybe for see them shake away. And now maybe for the long time conversion rate the long time conversion rate the long time conversion rate optimization is getting the attention it

optimization is getting the attention it optimization is getting the attention it always deserved. always deserved. always deserved. >> Yeah. Like one of the So we work with a

>> Yeah. Like one of the So we work with a >> Yeah. Like one of the So we work with a lot of different gambling brands in the

lot of different gambling brands in the lot of different gambling brands in the UK and the ones that have

UK and the ones that have UK and the ones that have a custom landing page and they're

a custom landing page and they're a custom landing page and they're constantly split testing headings.

constantly split testing headings. constantly split testing headings. They're con they're constantly split

They're con they're constantly split They're con they're constantly split testing like colors. Like it's it's so

testing like colors. Like it's it's so testing like colors. Like it's it's so silly. like some of the stuff that they

silly. like some of the stuff that they silly. like some of the stuff that they test, but they're like, "Oh, that

test, but they're like, "Oh, that test, but they're like, "Oh, that headline that we tested, it's increased

headline that we tested, it's increased headline that we tested, it's increased our conversion rate by 0.5%.

our conversion rate by 0.5%. our conversion rate by 0.5%. Oh, that color, we've changed it from

Oh, that color, we've changed it from Oh, that color, we've changed it from red to green. That's increased it for

red to green. That's increased it for red to green. That's increased it for from z.2% to now 1%, right? It's all

from z.2% to now 1%, right? It's all from z.2% to now 1%, right? It's all about stacking all of these micro wins."

about stacking all of these micro wins." about stacking all of these micro wins." But if you think of it, if you're But if you think of it, if you're But if you think of it, if you're getting like, for example, we'll talk

getting like, for example, we'll talk getting like, for example, we'll talk about Bet 365, one of the biggest brands

about Bet 365, one of the biggest brands about Bet 365, one of the biggest brands in the UK. if their pages are getting,

in the UK. if their pages are getting, in the UK. if their pages are getting, let's say, 10,000 hits a day

let's say, 10,000 hits a day let's say, 10,000 hits a day because it's Chelenham weekend, right?

because it's Chelenham weekend, right? because it's Chelenham weekend, right? That's gonna stack up big time. Like all

That's gonna stack up big time. Like all That's gonna stack up big time. Like all the little micro gains like the 0.2%

the little micro gains like the 0.2% the little micro gains like the 0.2% there, the 1% there, the 0.5% there,

there, the 1% there, the 0.5% there, there, the 1% there, the 0.5% there, then you times that by I don't know,

then you times that by I don't know, then you times that by I don't know, however many days in the year, let's

however many days in the year, let's however many days in the year, let's say. say. say. >> 65. >> 65. >> 65. >> Yeah. 365.

>> Yeah. 365. >> Yeah. 365. Now, what I had in mind is like all the

Now, what I had in mind is like all the Now, what I had in mind is like all the big events like you've got the World big events like you've got the World big events like you've got the World Cup, you've got Chelnham, you've got all

Cup, you've got Chelnham, you've got all Cup, you've got Chelnham, you've got all that stuff like Champions League and

that stuff like Champions League and that stuff like Champions League and stuff like that. They won't be getting

stuff like that. They won't be getting stuff like that. They won't be getting that amount of visits every single day,

that amount of visits every single day, that amount of visits every single day, right? They might be, who knows? But

right? They might be, who knows? But right? They might be, who knows? But let's say it is 365

let's say it is 365 let's say it is 365 times the 10 times the I don't know

times the 10 times the I don't know times the 10 times the I don't know 10,000 hits a day times all the new

10,000 hits a day times all the new 10,000 hits a day times all the new affiliates coming onto that and send

affiliates coming onto that and send affiliates coming onto that and send them more traffic, right? It's just

them more traffic, right? It's just them more traffic, right? It's just ridiculous amounts of money that you're

ridiculous amounts of money that you're ridiculous amounts of money that you're just wasting if you're not doing CRO.

just wasting if you're not doing CRO. just wasting if you're not doing CRO. And from from an affiliate that pushes

And from from an affiliate that pushes And from from an affiliate that pushes brands, the ones that we like to work

brands, the ones that we like to work brands, the ones that we like to work with are the ones that constantly split

with are the ones that constantly split with are the ones that constantly split test their landing pages because those

test their landing pages because those test their landing pages because those are the ones that truly care that. And

are the ones that truly care that. And are the ones that truly care that. And another thing that we've not even spoke another thing that we've not even spoke another thing that we've not even spoke about is there was another set of brands

about is there was another set of brands about is there was another set of brands that had like really good lifetime

that had like really good lifetime that had like really good lifetime value. And basically what they had is

value. And basically what they had is value. And basically what they had is they just had a really good CRM system.

they just had a really good CRM system. they just had a really good CRM system. So if I sent for example John Wright for

So if I sent for example John Wright for So if I sent for example John Wright for to bet 365 they would make certain that

to bet 365 they would make certain that to bet 365 they would make certain that or I don't know how they've got it set

or I don't know how they've got it set or I don't know how they've got it set up but let's say for example John goes

up but let's say for example John goes up but let's say for example John goes and bets on Manchester United to to win.

and bets on Manchester United to to win. and bets on Manchester United to to win. Say goodbye to your money because Say goodbye to your money because Say goodbye to your money because they're doing terrible right now but

they're doing terrible right now but they're doing terrible right now but let's say they were on good form.

let's say they were on good form. let's say they were on good form. >> What their CRM system would basically do

>> What their CRM system would basically do >> What their CRM system would basically do is they would look at what type of bets

is they would look at what type of bets is they would look at what type of bets John's done. So, let's say for example,

John's done. So, let's say for example, John's done. So, let's say for example, John constantly bets on Chelsea and he's

John constantly bets on Chelsea and he's John constantly bets on Chelsea and he's also he also does a little bet on horse

also he also does a little bet on horse also he also does a little bet on horse racing every so often. Their CRM system

racing every so often. Their CRM system racing every so often. Their CRM system understands and the next time Manchester

understands and the next time Manchester understands and the next time Manchester United's playing, they'll say, "Hey, United's playing, they'll say, "Hey, United's playing, they'll say, "Hey, John, Manchester United are playing in

John, Manchester United are playing in John, Manchester United are playing in the Champions League or the Europa

the Champions League or the Europa the Champions League or the Europa League or Premier League or whatever."

League or Premier League or whatever." League or Premier League or whatever." So, it will trigger you to consistently

So, it will trigger you to consistently So, it will trigger you to consistently be spending more money with them. And

be spending more money with them. And be spending more money with them. And then if there's any like horse racing

then if there's any like horse racing then if there's any like horse racing and stuff like that, it will also do

and stuff like that, it will also do and stuff like that, it will also do that as well.

that as well. that as well. So again, think of the why I was talking

So again, think of the why I was talking So again, think of the why I was talking about conversion rate. All these clicks

about conversion rate. All these clicks about conversion rate. All these clicks like that's just a text message that

like that's just a text message that like that's just a text message that they'll send out or in some cases they they'll send out or in some cases they they'll send out or in some cases they might even send out WhatsApp message.

might even send out WhatsApp message. might even send out WhatsApp message. That click is going through to a landing

That click is going through to a landing That click is going through to a landing page that they would have split tested

page that they would have split tested page that they would have split tested loads and loads and loads. So if you're

loads and loads and loads. So if you're loads and loads and loads. So if you're a brand watching this and you're saying

a brand watching this and you're saying a brand watching this and you're saying we've not got the budget for it,

we've not got the budget for it, we've not got the budget for it, you like are you truly a brand? Like you

you like are you truly a brand? Like you you like are you truly a brand? Like you should be split testing. You should be

should be split testing. You should be should be split testing. You should be doing it. You should have a CRM system

doing it. You should have a CRM system doing it. You should have a CRM system in place. You should have affiliates in

in place. You should have affiliates in in place. You should have affiliates in place. If you can't make it work with

place. If you can't make it work with place. If you can't make it work with affiliates, bearing in mind, and I could

affiliates, bearing in mind, and I could affiliates, bearing in mind, and I could be wrong in saying this, but I think be wrong in saying this, but I think be wrong in saying this, but I think affiliate marketing might be your

affiliate marketing might be your affiliate marketing might be your cheapest traffic source. If you can't

cheapest traffic source. If you can't cheapest traffic source. If you can't make it work with affiliates, you're make it work with affiliates, you're make it work with affiliates, you're definitely not going to make it work definitely not going to make it work definitely not going to make it work with PPC and SEO. That That's just my

with PPC and SEO. That That's just my with PPC and SEO. That That's just my opinion. opinion. opinion. >> Yeah. No, I agree. Something that I

>> Yeah. No, I agree. Something that I >> Yeah. No, I agree. Something that I don't know how we're going to solve it,

don't know how we're going to solve it, don't know how we're going to solve it, but it's everything that you said. It's but it's everything that you said. It's but it's everything that you said. It's like, how do we know that an operator

like, how do we know that an operator like, how do we know that an operator actually has a really good CRM? Like

actually has a really good CRM? Like actually has a really good CRM? Like sometimes the only way of knowing is to

sometimes the only way of knowing is to sometimes the only way of knowing is to basically throw your own players through basically throw your own players through basically throw your own players through it and watch what happens. Another

it and watch what happens. Another it and watch what happens. Another example is there's a lot of AI tools on

example is there's a lot of AI tools on example is there's a lot of AI tools on the market that are helping optimization

the market that are helping optimization the market that are helping optimization within that stacking on top of CRM. So

within that stacking on top of CRM. So within that stacking on top of CRM. So we're starting to learn who are these

we're starting to learn who are these we're starting to learn who are these companies, but not all of their customer

companies, but not all of their customer companies, but not all of their customer lists are available. One one piece of

lists are available. One one piece of lists are available. One one piece of advice and this again just comes from

advice and this again just comes from advice and this again just comes from experience. The ones that have really

experience. The ones that have really experience. The ones that have really bad lifetime value of clients typically

bad lifetime value of clients typically bad lifetime value of clients typically give out a higher or sorry a higher

give out a higher or sorry a higher give out a higher or sorry a higher percentage of lifetime value to their

percentage of lifetime value to their percentage of lifetime value to their affiliates if that makes sense. For

affiliates if that makes sense. For affiliates if that makes sense. For example, I think bet 365

example, I think bet 365 example, I think bet 365 is

is is CPA of

CPA of CPA of 60 I want to say something like that.

60 I want to say something like that. 60 I want to say something like that. And then last again few years ago, not

And then last again few years ago, not And then last again few years ago, not recently, they were doing like I think

recently, they were doing like I think recently, they were doing like I think it was like 20% lifetime, right? The

it was like 20% lifetime, right? The it was like 20% lifetime, right? The guys that have really bad lifetime and

guys that have really bad lifetime and guys that have really bad lifetime and they've not got a good CRM in place,

they've not got a good CRM in place, they've not got a good CRM in place, they'll say, "Hey, John, we've got 80%

they'll say, "Hey, John, we've got 80% they'll say, "Hey, John, we've got 80% lifetime." Yeah, but your players only

lifetime." Yeah, but your players only lifetime." Yeah, but your players only bet once. How? Like that's the that

bet once. How? Like that's the that bet once. How? Like that's the that that's what we found anyway.

that's what we found anyway. that's what we found anyway. >> Yeah. I'm hoping to change that because

>> Yeah. I'm hoping to change that because >> Yeah. I'm hoping to change that because I'll tell you a short story. long time

I'll tell you a short story. long time I'll tell you a short story. long time ago when I was affiliate manager for a

ago when I was affiliate manager for a ago when I was affiliate manager for a casino group, I lost out to number one

casino group, I lost out to number one casino group, I lost out to number one position. So, this brand over here is

position. So, this brand over here is position. So, this brand over here is giving me 70%. I'm like, it's 70% of

giving me 70%. I'm like, it's 70% of giving me 70%. I'm like, it's 70% of zero. Let's be real. Yeah, you couldn't

zero. Let's be real. Yeah, you couldn't zero. Let's be real. Yeah, you couldn't talk to them, but it was one of the

talk to them, but it was one of the talk to them, but it was one of the inspirations for why we wanted to build

inspirations for why we wanted to build inspirations for why we wanted to build our stats app. Like, we were like, I

our stats app. Like, we were like, I our stats app. Like, we were like, I want affiliates to be able to see the want affiliates to be able to see the want affiliates to be able to see the data in front of them and have it

data in front of them and have it data in front of them and have it automatically rerank where you should

automatically rerank where you should automatically rerank where you should work on things. And then the other

work on things. And then the other work on things. And then the other challenge is how do we factor in

challenge is how do we factor in challenge is how do we factor in lifetime value? There are a couple tools

lifetime value? There are a couple tools lifetime value? There are a couple tools out there that will do it. So it's if we

out there that will do it. So it's if we out there that will do it. So it's if we can come at it from all angles and just

can come at it from all angles and just can come at it from all angles and just be aggregate any data, we'll do it with

be aggregate any data, we'll do it with be aggregate any data, we'll do it with click ID level tracking. We think that

click ID level tracking. We think that click ID level tracking. We think that could be another helpful signal where

could be another helpful signal where could be another helpful signal where there's so much data that can come from

there's so much data that can come from there's so much data that can come from having your player separated where you

having your player separated where you having your player separated where you can say I can see all of them

can say I can see all of them can say I can see all of them individually. I can separate my whales

individually. I can separate my whales individually. I can separate my whales from the regular traffic to know what is

from the regular traffic to know what is from the regular traffic to know what is the regular player look like. How long

the regular player look like. How long the regular player look like. How long do they stay? How much deposit time in

do they stay? How much deposit time in do they stay? How much deposit time in between? The average deposit value. I

between? The average deposit value. I between? The average deposit value. I think when affiliates have easier access

think when affiliates have easier access think when affiliates have easier access to this, I think the space will start to

to this, I think the space will start to to this, I think the space will start to change. change. change. >> Yeah, 100%.

>> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Brilliant. So, I want to pass it back to

>> Brilliant. So, I want to pass it back to >> Brilliant. So, I want to pass it back to you. How can people get a hold of you?

you. How can people get a hold of you? you. How can people get a hold of you? And once again, thanks a lot for doing And once again, thanks a lot for doing And once again, thanks a lot for doing this. I've got a lot of notes and a lot

this. I've got a lot of notes and a lot this. I've got a lot of notes and a lot of ideas of things I need to do and this

of ideas of things I need to do and this of ideas of things I need to do and this is going to be super helpful for the

is going to be super helpful for the is going to be super helpful for the next panel I have to do.

next panel I have to do. next panel I have to do. >> Yeah, no worries. So, people can find me

>> Yeah, no worries. So, people can find me >> Yeah, no worries. So, people can find me on casual.com.

on casual.com. on casual.com. I fairly active on social media and I

I fairly active on social media and I I fairly active on social media and I also run the masterminders which is

also run the masterminders which is also run the masterminders which is happening on June 24th through to the 26

happening on June 24th through to the 26 happening on June 24th through to the 26 in 2026. So hopefully I'll see you

in 2026. So hopefully I'll see you in 2026. So hopefully I'll see you there. there. there. >> I think I might have to make some plans

>> I think I might have to make some plans >> I think I might have to make some plans for the month of June for next year.

for the month of June for next year. for the month of June for next year. There's nothing wrong with being it's There's nothing wrong with being it's There's nothing wrong with being it's going to be in the UK, right? going to be in the UK, right? going to be in the UK, right? >> Manchester. I've not been, but there's a

>> Manchester. I've not been, but there's a >> Manchester. I've not been, but there's a lot of affiliate marketing people there, lot of affiliate marketing people there, lot of affiliate marketing people there, so I'm starting to come up with the less

so I'm starting to come up with the less so I'm starting to come up with the less excuses of why I can't be there.

excuses of why I can't be there. excuses of why I can't be there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Brilliant. Thanks a lot for doing this. >> Brilliant. Thanks a lot for doing this. >> Brilliant. Thanks a lot for doing this. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. >> All right. Thanks for having me.

>> Thank you for tuning in to the >> Thank you for tuning in to the AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take

AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

this time to ask for a small favor to this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you

leave a rating and review wherever you leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. That helps us

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