Data meets affiliate marketing with Kevin Hartman author of Digital Marketing Analytics

the amount of data the data Reliance the amount of data the data Reliance that we see in affiliate marketing

that we see in affiliate marketing that we see in affiliate marketing that's going to become even more

that's going to become even more that's going to become even more important that's going to allow for

important that's going to allow for important that's going to allow for greater personalization and targeting

greater personalization and targeting greater personalization and targeting and understanding of both consumers that

and understanding of both consumers that and understanding of both consumers that are are working their way through the

are are working their way through the are are working their way through the affiliate networks as well as just

affiliate networks as well as just affiliate networks as well as just conversion

conversion conversion what that means how that's predicted and

what that means how that's predicted and what that means how that's predicted and how that's how that's estimated so that

how that's how that's estimated so that how that's how that's estimated so that that for me is going to take

that for me is going to take that for me is going to take I think an area of measurement around

I think an area of measurement around I think an area of measurement around affiliate marketing that has always been

affiliate marketing that has always been affiliate marketing that has always been somewhat nebulous

somewhat nebulous somewhat nebulous right and bring a lot more clarity

right and bring a lot more clarity right and bring a lot more clarity I'm John Wright and you're listening to

I'm John Wright and you're listening to I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence

affiliate bi the business intelligence affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought

and affiliate marketing podcast brought and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by stat strong

to you by stat strong to you by stat strong welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I've

welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I've welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I've got our very first guests here and it's

got our very first guests here and it's got our very first guests here and it's someone that I know I like to think I

someone that I know I like to think I someone that I know I like to think I know very well I took his course in data

know very well I took his course in data know very well I took his course in data visualization last summer so I Kevin I'm

visualization last summer so I Kevin I'm visualization last summer so I Kevin I'm going to let you do it a quick

going to let you do it a quick going to let you do it a quick introduction to yourself

introduction to yourself introduction to yourself sure thanks Sean um I'm Kevin Hartman uh

sure thanks Sean um I'm Kevin Hartman uh sure thanks Sean um I'm Kevin Hartman uh I am let's see the last 11 years at

I am let's see the last 11 years at I am let's see the last 11 years at Google most recently I was Google's

Google most recently I was Google's Google most recently I was Google's Chief analytics evangelist uh I have now

Chief analytics evangelist uh I have now Chief analytics evangelist uh I have now made a move into Academia and I am a

made a move into Academia and I am a made a move into Academia and I am a associate professor of marketing at the

associate professor of marketing at the associate professor of marketing at the University of Notre Dame's Mendoza

University of Notre Dame's Mendoza University of Notre Dame's Mendoza College of Business College of Business College of Business so late career change for me but

so late career change for me but so late career change for me but something that I've always wanted to do

something that I've always wanted to do something that I've always wanted to do also as John you mentioned I teach on

also as John you mentioned I teach on also as John you mentioned I teach on some online platforms and I just get to

some online platforms and I just get to some online platforms and I just get to do a lot of those things that I really

do a lot of those things that I really do a lot of those things that I really love all around data storytelling and

love all around data storytelling and love all around data storytelling and data analysis

data analysis data analysis and so how did you end up in the space

and so how did you end up in the space and so how did you end up in the space of data visualization because it's uh I

of data visualization because it's uh I of data visualization because it's uh I think in the world of business think in the world of business think in the world of business intelligence it's almost like uh I

intelligence it's almost like uh I intelligence it's almost like uh I wouldn't call it an afterthought but wouldn't call it an afterthought but wouldn't call it an afterthought but it's kind of on the side it's uh very

it's kind of on the side it's uh very it's kind of on the side it's uh very important and obviously I have a better

important and obviously I have a better important and obviously I have a better understanding by accidentally stumbling

understanding by accidentally stumbling understanding by accidentally stumbling upon your course uh just scrolling

upon your course uh just scrolling upon your course uh just scrolling through databiz on Instagram kept seeing

through databiz on Instagram kept seeing through databiz on Instagram kept seeing this elevator course I'm like Kevin

this elevator course I'm like Kevin this elevator course I'm like Kevin Google I'm like this sounds like it Google I'm like this sounds like it Google I'm like this sounds like it could be pretty good so where did how

could be pretty good so where did how could be pretty good so where did how did you get end up in this journey I let

did you get end up in this journey I let did you get end up in this journey I let me say first that you uh you would not

me say first that you uh you would not me say first that you uh you would not be wrong by calling it an afterthought I

be wrong by calling it an afterthought I be wrong by calling it an afterthought I think it's one of those things that it's think it's one of those things that it's think it's one of those things that it's just so critically important and it's

just so critically important and it's just so critically important and it's often uh or nearly always uh taken for

often uh or nearly always uh taken for often uh or nearly always uh taken for granted or underestimated and certainly

granted or underestimated and certainly granted or underestimated and certainly not taught well uh so it's it's we are

not taught well uh so it's it's we are not taught well uh so it's it's we are out there doing doing the good work of

out there doing doing the good work of out there doing doing the good work of trying to evangelize good data

trying to evangelize good data trying to evangelize good data visualization and it's it's something

visualization and it's it's something visualization and it's it's something that you know for me it was sort of a a

that you know for me it was sort of a a that you know for me it was sort of a a little bit of a little bit of talent a

little bit of a little bit of talent a little bit of a little bit of talent a whole bunch of opportunity and just a

whole bunch of opportunity and just a whole bunch of opportunity and just a lot of luck kind of put me where I am

lot of luck kind of put me where I am lot of luck kind of put me where I am now I I math was something that always

now I I math was something that always now I I math was something that always came easy to me but I I never wanted to

came easy to me but I I never wanted to came easy to me but I I never wanted to be that math guy I wanted to be an

be that math guy I wanted to be an be that math guy I wanted to be an artist but I just didn't have the the

artist but I just didn't have the the artist but I just didn't have the the ability right that is necessary there

ability right that is necessary there ability right that is necessary there and so once I started my business career

and so once I started my business career and so once I started my business career and I found this idea of analyzing data

and I found this idea of analyzing data and I found this idea of analyzing data leveraging those math skills and

leveraging those math skills and leveraging those math skills and statistics skills that I had

statistics skills that I had statistics skills that I had with the ability then to pull out

with the ability then to pull out with the ability then to pull out stories and tell those stories

stories and tell those stories stories and tell those stories particularly visually wow it was just

particularly visually wow it was just particularly visually wow it was just exactly what I wanted to do and it it

exactly what I wanted to do and it it exactly what I wanted to do and it it just so happened that you know I'm of an

just so happened that you know I'm of an just so happened that you know I'm of an age that I was doing these things right

age that I was doing these things right age that I was doing these things right around the time that data and digital

around the time that data and digital around the time that data and digital analytics was really starting to grow

analytics was really starting to grow analytics was really starting to grow and so

and so and so um I I just serendipitously got an offer

um I I just serendipitously got an offer um I I just serendipitously got an offer to do some teaching and the next thing I

to do some teaching and the next thing I to do some teaching and the next thing I know is it's turning into almost a

know is it's turning into almost a know is it's turning into almost a second career of me teaching at a number

second career of me teaching at a number second career of me teaching at a number of places data analytics data

of places data analytics data of places data analytics data visualization so it was a kind of right

visualization so it was a kind of right visualization so it was a kind of right time right right place

time right right place time right right place um but but one that I'm I'm just so

um but but one that I'm I'm just so um but but one that I'm I'm just so fortunate to have been a part of because

fortunate to have been a part of because fortunate to have been a part of because it's something that I really do love

it's something that I really do love it's something that I really do love yeah I remember uh in your course

yeah I remember uh in your course yeah I remember uh in your course showing us some of the dashboards you

showing us some of the dashboards you showing us some of the dashboards you made a long time ago and as much as we

made a long time ago and as much as we made a long time ago and as much as we can kind of look at them and almost

can kind of look at them and almost can kind of look at them and almost laugh at them I just look at that and go

laugh at them I just look at that and go laugh at them I just look at that and go I mean imagine doing that for a solid 10

I mean imagine doing that for a solid 10 I mean imagine doing that for a solid 10 years I think that skill set would be

years I think that skill set would be years I think that skill set would be very valuable today

very valuable today very valuable today yeah yeah I hope so right I mean we I

yeah yeah I hope so right I mean we I yeah yeah I hope so right I mean we I have learned personally just so much and

have learned personally just so much and have learned personally just so much and I think I've I've hopefully

I think I've I've hopefully I think I've I've hopefully um uh taught so many people on the right

um uh taught so many people on the right um uh taught so many people on the right ways to visualize data and particularly

ways to visualize data and particularly ways to visualize data and particularly build dashboards dashboards are one of

build dashboards dashboards are one of build dashboards dashboards are one of those things that

those things that those things that um if you can understand all the

um if you can understand all the um if you can understand all the concepts of telling a static story based

concepts of telling a static story based concepts of telling a static story based in a presentation those same ideas

in a presentation those same ideas in a presentation those same ideas should translate over to a dashboard and

should translate over to a dashboard and should translate over to a dashboard and they almost never do right so that's

they almost never do right so that's they almost never do right so that's been it's been a real focus of mine uh

been it's been a real focus of mine uh been it's been a real focus of mine uh and it's it's hard for me too to look

and it's it's hard for me too to look and it's it's hard for me too to look back at those dashboards that we created

back at those dashboards that we created back at those dashboards that we created so long ago but they they provide

so long ago but they they provide so long ago but they they provide perfect opportunities for us to pick

perfect opportunities for us to pick perfect opportunities for us to pick them apart and really understand what uh

them apart and really understand what uh them apart and really understand what uh what good really should be yeah they're

what good really should be yeah they're what good really should be yeah they're excellent case studies and obviously I

excellent case studies and obviously I excellent case studies and obviously I mean I think would be very difficult for

mean I think would be very difficult for mean I think would be very difficult for you to not look everywhere that you like

you to not look everywhere that you like you to not look everywhere that you like in everyday life and not see dashboards

in everyday life and not see dashboards in everyday life and not see dashboards and database everywhere so what what are

and database everywhere so what what are and database everywhere so what what are the things that you see in most

the things that you see in most the things that you see in most Industries or everyday life that you're

Industries or everyday life that you're Industries or everyday life that you're like this needs to change and this is

like this needs to change and this is like this needs to change and this is yeah absolutely backwards yeah I see it

yeah absolutely backwards yeah I see it yeah absolutely backwards yeah I see it everywhere and again it's because it is

everywhere and again it's because it is everywhere and again it's because it is very much an afterthought I think very much an afterthought I think very much an afterthought I think there's such an emphasis placed

there's such an emphasis placed there's such an emphasis placed um the analysis of data

um the analysis of data um the analysis of data and uh in my experience analysts who get

and uh in my experience analysts who get and uh in my experience analysts who get really invested in analysis believe that

really invested in analysis believe that really invested in analysis believe that the stories they pull out will speak for

the stories they pull out will speak for the stories they pull out will speak for themselves that they are obvious right

themselves that they are obvious right themselves that they are obvious right um and it's it's just that is a that is

um and it's it's just that is a that is um and it's it's just that is a that is a condition of being so close to the

a condition of being so close to the a condition of being so close to the data and losing perspective and empathy

data and losing perspective and empathy data and losing perspective and empathy and those are major things that we try

and those are major things that we try and those are major things that we try to introduce in the course the idea of

to introduce in the course the idea of to introduce in the course the idea of how much planning needs to go in to

how much planning needs to go in to how much planning needs to go in to building an appropriate story and the

building an appropriate story and the building an appropriate story and the correct using the correct data and then

correct using the correct data and then correct using the correct data and then there is certainly the

there is certainly the there is certainly the what I call the data designer

what I call the data designer what I call the data designer elements to the output as well which

elements to the output as well which elements to the output as well which frankly just aren't taught

frankly just aren't taught frankly just aren't taught um and I see this everywhere right it

um and I see this everywhere right it um and I see this everywhere right it doesn't matter if uh which industry we

doesn't matter if uh which industry we doesn't matter if uh which industry we are talking about I I would say that the

are talking about I I would say that the are talking about I I would say that the industries that are a little more

industries that are a little more industries that are a little more immersed in data or have more access to

immersed in data or have more access to immersed in data or have more access to data I find to be particular violators

data I find to be particular violators data I find to be particular violators of many of the the tenants of good

of many of the the tenants of good of many of the the tenants of good visualization and I think it is because

visualization and I think it is because visualization and I think it is because they believe that the data speaks for

they believe that the data speaks for they believe that the data speaks for itself or they believe that they have

itself or they believe that they have itself or they believe that they have the newest tool which should do all the

the newest tool which should do all the the newest tool which should do all the work for them but it is such a human

work for them but it is such a human work for them but it is such a human approach uh to uh to data storytelling

approach uh to uh to data storytelling approach uh to uh to data storytelling um or such a human approach is required

um or such a human approach is required um or such a human approach is required for good data storytelling it's just

for good data storytelling it's just for good data storytelling it's just things that uh unless you've been taught

things that uh unless you've been taught things that uh unless you've been taught it and been taught it correctly you

it and been taught it correctly you it and been taught it correctly you can't really expect to know it

can't really expect to know it can't really expect to know it that's a very interesting insight to me

that's a very interesting insight to me that's a very interesting insight to me because I mean I showed you some of the

because I mean I showed you some of the because I mean I showed you some of the affiliate marketing dashboards that I've

affiliate marketing dashboards that I've affiliate marketing dashboards that I've been dealing with and I'm not going to been dealing with and I'm not going to been dealing with and I'm not going to name some of the companies involved but name some of the companies involved but name some of the companies involved but I shared some of the largest uh like 100

I shared some of the largest uh like 100 I shared some of the largest uh like 100 million dollar type of companies and I

million dollar type of companies and I million dollar type of companies and I said are you seeing what I'm seeing and

said are you seeing what I'm seeing and said are you seeing what I'm seeing and ironically enough it's in affiliate

ironically enough it's in affiliate ironically enough it's in affiliate marketing we have access to so much data

marketing we have access to so much data marketing we have access to so much data and we run into so much data and you'd

and we run into so much data and you'd and we run into so much data and you'd think we're some of the most data driven think we're some of the most data driven think we're some of the most data driven uh you know businesses around but it's

uh you know businesses around but it's uh you know businesses around but it's the opposite the opposite the opposite yeah and and I remember seeing those

yeah and and I remember seeing those yeah and and I remember seeing those those uh the the dashboards and and I

those uh the the dashboards and and I those uh the the dashboards and and I remember being struck by two immediate

remember being struck by two immediate remember being struck by two immediate thoughts one they're beautiful because

thoughts one they're beautiful because thoughts one they're beautiful because there's clearly a lot of effort and

there's clearly a lot of effort and there's clearly a lot of effort and development time placed in creating good

development time placed in creating good development time placed in creating good looking looking looking interesting uh visualizations right

interesting uh visualizations right interesting uh visualizations right the second thought I had just as

the second thought I had just as the second thought I had just as immediately was there's no story here

immediately was there's no story here immediately was there's no story here like all it is is data right and that's

like all it is is data right and that's like all it is is data right and that's I think the big Pitfall that we fall

I think the big Pitfall that we fall I think the big Pitfall that we fall into that we we believe that the the the

into that we we believe that the the the into that we we believe that the the the dashboard is there to communicate the

dashboard is there to communicate the dashboard is there to communicate the data data data it is in part but there's really three

it is in part but there's really three it is in part but there's really three questions that any good dashboard should

questions that any good dashboard should questions that any good dashboard should be answering one is what's the

be answering one is what's the be answering one is what's the performance that's the data and that's performance that's the data and that's performance that's the data and that's critically important critically important critically important the next is what does it mean what's the

the next is what does it mean what's the the next is what does it mean what's the interpretation what's the Insight right

interpretation what's the Insight right interpretation what's the Insight right and then the third is what do I do

and then the third is what do I do and then the third is what do I do that's the recommendation a good

that's the recommendation a good that's the recommendation a good dashboard will do all those things and I

dashboard will do all those things and I dashboard will do all those things and I remember looking at those dashboards and

remember looking at those dashboards and remember looking at those dashboards and uh just feeling like that there wasn't

uh just feeling like that there wasn't uh just feeling like that there wasn't there wasn't a story there it wasn't

there wasn't a story there it wasn't there wasn't a story there it wasn't telling me anything it was giving me a

telling me anything it was giving me a telling me anything it was giving me a lot of information but if you are

lot of information but if you are lot of information but if you are someone who is immersed in this world

someone who is immersed in this world someone who is immersed in this world with the kind of skills needed to pull

with the kind of skills needed to pull with the kind of skills needed to pull stories from those uh from your analysis

stories from those uh from your analysis stories from those uh from your analysis and from the to your point the vast

and from the to your point the vast and from the to your point the vast amount of data that we have

amount of data that we have amount of data that we have if you are creating a dashboard that's

if you are creating a dashboard that's if you are creating a dashboard that's just displaying that data you are just displaying that data you are just displaying that data you are effectively just turning the story over

effectively just turning the story over effectively just turning the story over to whoever's looking at it right you are

to whoever's looking at it right you are to whoever's looking at it right you are taking yourself completely out of the

taking yourself completely out of the taking yourself completely out of the process and and so that's that's what I

process and and so that's that's what I process and and so that's that's what I try to to Really

try to to Really try to to Really enforce with

enforce with enforce with people that I get the pleasure like

people that I get the pleasure like people that I get the pleasure like yourself to work with

yourself to work with yourself to work with you have the critical skills

you have the critical skills you have the critical skills that your stakeholders

that your stakeholders that your stakeholders don't they shouldn't that's why they

don't they shouldn't that's why they don't they shouldn't that's why they brought you in so you need to use that

brought you in so you need to use that brought you in so you need to use that particularly when it comes to analyzing

particularly when it comes to analyzing particularly when it comes to analyzing those data finding the stories telling

those data finding the stories telling those data finding the stories telling those stories and your dashboard should

those stories and your dashboard should those stories and your dashboard should just be a reflection of that yeah well

just be a reflection of that yeah well just be a reflection of that yeah well not to give too much credit and

not to give too much credit and not to give too much credit and complimence for your course but I felt

complimence for your course but I felt complimence for your course but I felt like I gained that extra level of

like I gained that extra level of like I gained that extra level of insight after the course I remember the

insight after the course I remember the insight after the course I remember the first third of the course when we're

first third of the course when we're first third of the course when we're focusing on the storytelling part I was

focusing on the storytelling part I was focusing on the storytelling part I was like let me look at these dashboards

like let me look at these dashboards like let me look at these dashboards again and then basically applying the

again and then basically applying the again and then basically applying the basic principles and I said it's

basic principles and I said it's basic principles and I said it's definitely exactly how you described it definitely exactly how you described it definitely exactly how you described it it's flat data there's no story behind

it's flat data there's no story behind it's flat data there's no story behind it there's no even a gateway to achieve

it there's no even a gateway to achieve it there's no even a gateway to achieve that story and it wasn't until you know

that story and it wasn't until you know that story and it wasn't until you know I decided to take one of the projects

I decided to take one of the projects I decided to take one of the projects that let me work on the data that I see

that let me work on the data that I see that let me work on the data that I see day in day out and I decided to learn

day in day out and I decided to learn day in day out and I decided to learn Tableau and then once I started putting

Tableau and then once I started putting Tableau and then once I started putting a bunch of filters together I mean the

a bunch of filters together I mean the a bunch of filters together I mean the stories almost told themselves I said

stories almost told themselves I said stories almost told themselves I said this was just shocking it the affiliate

this was just shocking it the affiliate this was just shocking it the affiliate program actually gave me the same

program actually gave me the same program actually gave me the same dashboards that I gave myself I would

dashboards that I gave myself I would dashboards that I gave myself I would just be shocked and then of course it

just be shocked and then of course it just be shocked and then of course it created more stories where I started

created more stories where I started created more stories where I started asking affiliate programs that said do

asking affiliate programs that said do asking affiliate programs that said do you know the conversion rate of all your you know the conversion rate of all your you know the conversion rate of all your landing pages and most of them said

landing pages and most of them said landing pages and most of them said about half of them said yes but then I

about half of them said yes but then I about half of them said yes but then I said would you be interested in a data

said would you be interested in a data said would you be interested in a data survey where I would help you optimize

survey where I would help you optimize survey where I would help you optimize it and most of them said yes I'm like

it and most of them said yes I'm like it and most of them said yes I'm like you wouldn't say yes to that unless you

you wouldn't say yes to that unless you you wouldn't say yes to that unless you actually didn't have a problem or you

actually didn't have a problem or you actually didn't have a problem or you already knew what your conversion rate

already knew what your conversion rate already knew what your conversion rate was so it was just the total irony yeah

was so it was just the total irony yeah was so it was just the total irony yeah well and that's you know that's a great

well and that's you know that's a great well and that's you know that's a great example of you beginning in the right

example of you beginning in the right example of you beginning in the right place and we talk about this in the place and we talk about this in the place and we talk about this in the course too right is

course too right is course too right is you you begin any kind of analysis that

you you begin any kind of analysis that you you begin any kind of analysis that will result in a dashboard or some kind

will result in a dashboard or some kind will result in a dashboard or some kind of story that you tell by getting

of story that you tell by getting of story that you tell by getting together the right questions

together the right questions together the right questions identifying the right data that you'll

identifying the right data that you'll identifying the right data that you'll need to answer those questions right and

need to answer those questions right and need to answer those questions right and and that's where we begin we wind up in

and that's where we begin we wind up in and that's where we begin we wind up in a place where we can answer those things

a place where we can answer those things a place where we can answer those things but what you've in that story what

but what you've in that story what but what you've in that story what you've you've just what you did was

you've you've just what you did was you've you've just what you did was present those questions and and and your

present those questions and and and your present those questions and and and your stakeholders your affiliate Partners you

stakeholders your affiliate Partners you stakeholders your affiliate Partners you know look they've got businesses to run

know look they've got businesses to run know look they've got businesses to run right like they've got they have

right like they've got they have right like they've got they have short-term demands to meet and so they

short-term demands to meet and so they short-term demands to meet and so they don't always have the opportunity to don't always have the opportunity to don't always have the opportunity to step back and look at those broader

step back and look at those broader step back and look at those broader bigger questions uh and and this is why

bigger questions uh and and this is why bigger questions uh and and this is why again right it's almost a responsibility

again right it's almost a responsibility again right it's almost a responsibility of those dashboards to answer those

of those dashboards to answer those of those dashboards to answer those things for them not just focus on the things for them not just focus on the things for them not just focus on the short term to give them real value uh

short term to give them real value uh short term to give them real value uh and unlock real opportunity and I can

and unlock real opportunity and I can and unlock real opportunity and I can say from what I'm seeing in the past say from what I'm seeing in the past say from what I'm seeing in the past year that there are more people jumping

year that there are more people jumping year that there are more people jumping into the affiliate marketing space or into the affiliate marketing space or into the affiliate marketing space or being hired to take on some of these

being hired to take on some of these being hired to take on some of these jobs so there are changes

jobs so there are changes jobs so there are changes yeah the next question I wanted to ask

yeah the next question I wanted to ask yeah the next question I wanted to ask is you know you must have seen a lot of

is you know you must have seen a lot of is you know you must have seen a lot of different data stories where things just

different data stories where things just different data stories where things just came to life and you're like wow this is

came to life and you're like wow this is came to life and you're like wow this is absolutely phenomenal if you have any

absolutely phenomenal if you have any absolutely phenomenal if you have any any to share yeah there's a number of

any to share yeah there's a number of any to share yeah there's a number of them right like them right like them right like um there's this wonderful story that I

um there's this wonderful story that I um there's this wonderful story that I you know true honestly I have tried to

you know true honestly I have tried to you know true honestly I have tried to uh find the

uh find the uh find the um the news article that was the source

um the news article that was the source um the news article that was the source of this I never have been able to so I

of this I never have been able to so I of this I never have been able to so I just have a sense that this was kind of just have a sense that this was kind of just have a sense that this was kind of handed down through Silicon Valley lore

handed down through Silicon Valley lore handed down through Silicon Valley lore but there's this great story of how

but there's this great story of how but there's this great story of how Bezos

Bezos Bezos um identified book buyers and book

um identified book buyers and book um identified book buyers and book readers as high value customers and that

readers as high value customers and that readers as high value customers and that hence is why Amazon began as a

hence is why Amazon began as a hence is why Amazon began as a Bookseller right to to focus on this

Bookseller right to to focus on this Bookseller right to to focus on this this uh valuable customer segment uh and

this uh valuable customer segment uh and this uh valuable customer segment uh and and I think you know for a company that

and I think you know for a company that and I think you know for a company that has uh resulted in what Amazon has

has uh resulted in what Amazon has has uh resulted in what Amazon has become I think those those are that's a

become I think those those are that's a become I think those those are that's a wonderful beginning right that that

wonderful beginning right that that wonderful beginning right that that comes right from an Insight

comes right from an Insight comes right from an Insight much more contemporary uh examples I've

much more contemporary uh examples I've much more contemporary uh examples I've seen recently uh are are all around how

seen recently uh are are all around how seen recently uh are are all around how people are reacting to the pandemic

people are reacting to the pandemic people are reacting to the pandemic experience that we had right and and how

experience that we had right and and how experience that we had right and and how that impacted business and how

that impacted business and how that impacted business and how businesses were able then to create

businesses were able then to create businesses were able then to create differentiated service levels and and

differentiated service levels and and differentiated service levels and and service offerings allowing customers to

service offerings allowing customers to service offerings allowing customers to choose what they wanted to choose uh and

choose what they wanted to choose uh and choose what they wanted to choose uh and and basing those offerings on data that

and basing those offerings on data that and basing those offerings on data that they had collected Lululemon for

they had collected Lululemon for they had collected Lululemon for instance has a great story of doing just

instance has a great story of doing just instance has a great story of doing just that and allowing customers to either

that and allowing customers to either that and allowing customers to either shop online entirely shop online pick up

shop online entirely shop online pick up shop online entirely shop online pick up and store use a uh

and store use a uh and store use a uh a guide like a shopping a shopper guide

a guide like a shopping a shopper guide a guide like a shopping a shopper guide uh employed by the company to help them

uh employed by the company to help them uh employed by the company to help them as well all these things came from a

as well all these things came from a as well all these things came from a better understanding of data but

better understanding of data but better understanding of data but really I think the best story that I was

really I think the best story that I was really I think the best story that I was personally involved in and that I I

personally involved in and that I I personally involved in and that I I often reflect on it just get a kick out

often reflect on it just get a kick out often reflect on it just get a kick out of was a story that turned out not to be

of was a story that turned out not to be of was a story that turned out not to be there we I I was helping

there we I I was helping there we I I was helping um I was helping the auto manufacturers

um I was helping the auto manufacturers um I was helping the auto manufacturers really release build and then release

really release build and then release really release build and then release this this car configuration technology

this this car configuration technology this this car configuration technology right which you see everywhere now the

right which you see everywhere now the right which you see everywhere now the ability to sit down and build yourself a

ability to sit down and build yourself a ability to sit down and build yourself a car online and when it was first coming

car online and when it was first coming car online and when it was first coming out like we thought what we had found

out like we thought what we had found out like we thought what we had found would be this tremendous tie between

would be this tremendous tie between would be this tremendous tie between people who were going to buy a car and

people who were going to buy a car and people who were going to buy a car and exactly what they wanted it'd be a great

exactly what they wanted it'd be a great exactly what they wanted it'd be a great way for us to connect their their uh

way for us to connect their their uh way for us to connect their their uh needs to our offerings and so

needs to our offerings and so needs to our offerings and so um you know we we launched these

um you know we we launched these um you know we we launched these Technologies to Great Fanfare and

Technologies to Great Fanfare and Technologies to Great Fanfare and unfortunately it turned out that there

unfortunately it turned out that there unfortunately it turned out that there was no connection no correlation really

was no connection no correlation really was no connection no correlation really at all between utilizing a car

at all between utilizing a car at all between utilizing a car configurator and then ultimately buying

configurator and then ultimately buying configurator and then ultimately buying that car it it turned out far too often

that car it it turned out far too often that car it it turned out far too often these were 16 year old boys who were these were 16 year old boys who were these were 16 year old boys who were just building the cars of their dreams just building the cars of their dreams just building the cars of their dreams right uh so these are things that we've

right uh so these are things that we've right uh so these are things that we've learned along the way right and and I

learned along the way right and and I learned along the way right and and I think one of the reasons why I love that

think one of the reasons why I love that think one of the reasons why I love that that data story is because it goes to

that data story is because it goes to that data story is because it goes to show that sometimes

show that sometimes show that sometimes the stories aren't what you think they

the stories aren't what you think they the stories aren't what you think they are right and as long as you let the

are right and as long as you let the are right and as long as you let the data tell you the story and follow let

data tell you the story and follow let data tell you the story and follow let it organically come from the data you're

it organically come from the data you're it organically come from the data you're going to wind up in a good place so

going to wind up in a good place so going to wind up in a good place so those are those are just a few of my those are those are just a few of my those are those are just a few of my favorites I guess yeah we don't want to

favorites I guess yeah we don't want to favorites I guess yeah we don't want to be wrong but at the same time there's uh

be wrong but at the same time there's uh be wrong but at the same time there's uh there's definitely a value in into not

there's definitely a value in into not there's definitely a value in into not like putting all your eggs in one basket

like putting all your eggs in one basket like putting all your eggs in one basket because you believe something to be true

because you believe something to be true because you believe something to be true and if you just did that one little data

and if you just did that one little data and if you just did that one little data experiment you would uh find out maybe

experiment you would uh find out maybe experiment you would uh find out maybe you should pivot to something else yeah

you should pivot to something else yeah you should pivot to something else yeah well it's learning right the whole thing

well it's learning right the whole thing well it's learning right the whole thing and this is analytics it's the pursuit

and this is analytics it's the pursuit and this is analytics it's the pursuit of questions and and when we do it right

of questions and and when we do it right of questions and and when we do it right and we we get toward an answer of a

and we we get toward an answer of a and we we get toward an answer of a question it creates a half dozen other

question it creates a half dozen other question it creates a half dozen other questions for us and so that's one of

questions for us and so that's one of questions for us and so that's one of the reasons why I think to be really the reasons why I think to be really the reasons why I think to be really immersed in this space you have to

immersed in this space you have to immersed in this space you have to really Embrace curiosity

really Embrace curiosity really Embrace curiosity uh it has to be has to be a

uh it has to be has to be a uh it has to be has to be a characteristic that you that um you you

characteristic that you that um you you characteristic that you that um you you feel core uh to yourself right

feel core uh to yourself right feel core uh to yourself right my next question is you know uh how long

my next question is you know uh how long my next question is you know uh how long have you been doing the the data

have you been doing the the data have you been doing the the data visualization course with elevator and

visualization course with elevator and visualization course with elevator and you must have seen some Trends over time

you must have seen some Trends over time you must have seen some Trends over time um like in terms of more uh students

um like in terms of more uh students um like in terms of more uh students kind of signing on and I'm just kind of

kind of signing on and I'm just kind of kind of signing on and I'm just kind of wondering what's your take of what are wondering what's your take of what are wondering what's your take of what are you seeing in the world of everything

you seeing in the world of everything you seeing in the world of everything from data science data visualization

from data science data visualization from data science data visualization business intelligence it looks like this

business intelligence it looks like this business intelligence it looks like this is just starting to explode right now

is just starting to explode right now is just starting to explode right now yeah we we've been doing it for about

yeah we we've been doing it for about yeah we we've been doing it for about five years so I think this was this was

five years so I think this was this was five years so I think this was this was a pretty early Runner but I I really do

a pretty early Runner but I I really do a pretty early Runner but I I really do believe that prior to the work we've

believe that prior to the work we've believe that prior to the work we've done most

done most done most data visualization education

data visualization education data visualization education revolved around learning a tool becoming

revolved around learning a tool becoming revolved around learning a tool becoming proficient in a visualization tool right

proficient in a visualization tool right proficient in a visualization tool right learning all the functions and features

learning all the functions and features learning all the functions and features and uh what we've done is taken that

and uh what we've done is taken that and uh what we've done is taken that step back and a harder look at what

step back and a harder look at what step back and a harder look at what makes for good data stories and good

makes for good data stories and good makes for good data stories and good visualization and how do you ultimately

visualization and how do you ultimately visualization and how do you ultimately get there the tool is important but it's

get there the tool is important but it's get there the tool is important but it's just an add-on right so what I have seen

just an add-on right so what I have seen just an add-on right so what I have seen is um uh certainly growth I mean the

is um uh certainly growth I mean the is um uh certainly growth I mean the every single time we run the course we

every single time we run the course we every single time we run the course we get more and more people

get more and more people get more and more people um into it it's the popularity has just

um into it it's the popularity has just um into it it's the popularity has just continued to increase and I I believe

continued to increase and I I believe continued to increase and I I believe that what is happening in the market has

that what is happening in the market has that what is happening in the market has been really good for business for us and

been really good for business for us and been really good for business for us and that is in the market just further

that is in the market just further that is in the market just further developments of tools further focus on

developments of tools further focus on developments of tools further focus on on technology to create visuals to

on technology to create visuals to on technology to create visuals to analyze data right particularly the move

analyze data right particularly the move analyze data right particularly the move towards artificial intelligence and and

towards artificial intelligence and and towards artificial intelligence and and all the wonderful things that that can

all the wonderful things that that can all the wonderful things that that can do it is effectively

do it is effectively do it is effectively uh I think for many people

uh I think for many people uh I think for many people taking the the human a little further

taking the the human a little further taking the the human a little further away from the process

away from the process away from the process um because these tools are so great and

um because these tools are so great and um because these tools are so great and proficient and effective you know you

proficient and effective you know you proficient and effective you know you can you can

can you can can you can let it do its thing a little more get

let it do its thing a little more get let it do its thing a little more get yourself less involved

yourself less involved yourself less involved um because the the AL AI algorithms are

um because the the AL AI algorithms are um because the the AL AI algorithms are are able to so effectively discover

are able to so effectively discover are able to so effectively discover patterns and collect and analyze you

patterns and collect and analyze you patterns and collect and analyze you know enormous uh sums of data you can

know enormous uh sums of data you can know enormous uh sums of data you can take you as an analyst a little further

take you as an analyst a little further take you as an analyst a little further out of the process and so

out of the process and so out of the process and so what we are talking about

what we are talking about what we are talking about the result of that is is really at the

the result of that is is really at the the result of that is is really at the end of the day poor data storytelling

end of the day poor data storytelling end of the day poor data storytelling poor visualization

poor visualization poor visualization right so what we are talking about is

right so what we are talking about is right so what we are talking about is the opposite it's it's getting the the

the opposite it's it's getting the the the opposite it's it's getting the the human really entwined in the story

human really entwined in the story human really entwined in the story getting the analysts back into the data

getting the analysts back into the data getting the analysts back into the data um and so we you know because of this

um and so we you know because of this um and so we you know because of this this Market Trend toward tools I feel

this Market Trend toward tools I feel this Market Trend toward tools I feel that we're becoming even more

that we're becoming even more that we're becoming even more appreciated for what we are doing in in

appreciated for what we are doing in in appreciated for what we are doing in in this in this course

this in this course this in this course um it's also it's it's been amazing to

um it's also it's it's been amazing to um it's also it's it's been amazing to me just how rapidly the tool Market

me just how rapidly the tool Market me just how rapidly the tool Market moves and develops and now with data

moves and develops and now with data moves and develops and now with data privacy uh and other concerns coming in

privacy uh and other concerns coming in privacy uh and other concerns coming in many of the the uh the tools that we

many of the the uh the tools that we many of the the uh the tools that we would have relied on

would have relied on would have relied on um no longer work or have just fallen

um no longer work or have just fallen um no longer work or have just fallen from the market right so it's been a

from the market right so it's been a from the market right so it's been a very interesting thing to see how the

very interesting thing to see how the very interesting thing to see how the tool Market has progressed while knowing

tool Market has progressed while knowing tool Market has progressed while knowing that what we're doing is pretty Timeless

that what we're doing is pretty Timeless that what we're doing is pretty Timeless and it doesn't matter those tools

and it doesn't matter those tools and it doesn't matter those tools everything else is happening are just

everything else is happening are just everything else is happening are just just

just just things that that the human analyst needs

things that that the human analyst needs things that that the human analyst needs to be aware of but we're we stay very

to be aware of but we're we stay very to be aware of but we're we stay very focused on the human analyst yeah just

focused on the human analyst yeah just focused on the human analyst yeah just in my own personal experience of you

in my own personal experience of you in my own personal experience of you know building stats tools and not really

know building stats tools and not really know building stats tools and not really understanding I was actually going down

understanding I was actually going down understanding I was actually going down this path of data science and data

this path of data science and data this path of data science and data analytics uh I've just noticed that you

analytics uh I've just noticed that you analytics uh I've just noticed that you know the interest in what we do has gone

know the interest in what we do has gone know the interest in what we do has gone from oh that's a kind of boring topic to

from oh that's a kind of boring topic to from oh that's a kind of boring topic to now it's like

now it's like now it's like um you know just more people in my own

um you know just more people in my own um you know just more people in my own affiliate marketing space wanting to

affiliate marketing space wanting to affiliate marketing space wanting to talk and you know just going okay what

talk and you know just going okay what talk and you know just going okay what what's what's out there for data stories

what's what's out there for data stories what's what's out there for data stories and what can we uncover and what are

and what can we uncover and what are and what can we uncover and what are people doing and the stories behind the

people doing and the stories behind the people doing and the stories behind the scenes uh because I'm now in this space

scenes uh because I'm now in this space scenes uh because I'm now in this space I get to talk to a lot of these people I get to talk to a lot of these people I get to talk to a lot of these people and it's just absolutely fascinating

so my last question is what do you see so my last question is what do you see for the future of affiliate marketing as

for the future of affiliate marketing as for the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence

it intersects with business intelligence it intersects with business intelligence yeah I mean it's really exciting right

yeah I mean it's really exciting right yeah I mean it's really exciting right and it's and it's and it's um

um um because uh it is such a data intensive

because uh it is such a data intensive because uh it is such a data intensive category right uh I think it's going to

category right uh I think it's going to category right uh I think it's going to be impacted pretty significantly at

be impacted pretty significantly at be impacted pretty significantly at least it has the opportunity to be

least it has the opportunity to be least it has the opportunity to be impacted significantly and if you

impacted significantly and if you impacted significantly and if you understand understand understand the way that data can help you as a

the way that data can help you as a the way that data can help you as a company you can you can be very

company you can you can be very company you can you can be very successful with as these these tools and

successful with as these these tools and successful with as these these tools and uh business intelligence tools continue

uh business intelligence tools continue uh business intelligence tools continue to evolve I mean it's there's many more

to evolve I mean it's there's many more to evolve I mean it's there's many more advanced analytic techniques that you'll

advanced analytic techniques that you'll advanced analytic techniques that you'll be able to apply just like we do in in

be able to apply just like we do in in be able to apply just like we do in in every market right in every industry but

every market right in every industry but every market right in every industry but I think again the the amount of data the

I think again the the amount of data the I think again the the amount of data the data Reliance that we see in affiliate

data Reliance that we see in affiliate data Reliance that we see in affiliate marketing that's going to become even

marketing that's going to become even marketing that's going to become even more important that's going to allow for

more important that's going to allow for more important that's going to allow for greater personalization and targeting

greater personalization and targeting greater personalization and targeting and understanding of both consumers that

and understanding of both consumers that and understanding of both consumers that are are working their way through to the

are are working their way through to the are are working their way through to the affiliate networks as well as just

affiliate networks as well as just affiliate networks as well as just conversion what that means how that's

conversion what that means how that's conversion what that means how that's predicted and how that's how that's

predicted and how that's how that's predicted and how that's how that's estimated so that that for me is going

estimated so that that for me is going estimated so that that for me is going to take to take to take I think an area of measurement around

I think an area of measurement around I think an area of measurement around affiliate marketing that has always been

affiliate marketing that has always been affiliate marketing that has always been somewhat nebulous

somewhat nebulous somewhat nebulous right and bring a lot more clarity

right and bring a lot more clarity right and bring a lot more clarity um both in terms of the ability for

um both in terms of the ability for um both in terms of the ability for business intelligence tools to to better

business intelligence tools to to better business intelligence tools to to better predict uh value as well as better

predict uh value as well as better predict uh value as well as better attribute value as well I think that's

attribute value as well I think that's attribute value as well I think that's another area that uh that that the the

another area that uh that that the the another area that uh that that the the evolution of business intelligence is is

evolution of business intelligence is is evolution of business intelligence is is going to bring and all those things

going to bring and all those things going to bring and all those things together you know it's just going to

together you know it's just going to together you know it's just going to create even even greater Partnerships

create even even greater Partnerships create even even greater Partnerships even greater collaboration is going to

even greater collaboration is going to even greater collaboration is going to allow you know you to understand which

allow you know you to understand which allow you know you to understand which partners are are truly performing which

partners are are truly performing which partners are are truly performing which ones aren't as well and and then even

ones aren't as well and and then even ones aren't as well and and then even gain a deeper understanding of when

gain a deeper understanding of when gain a deeper understanding of when performance isn't what you want it to be

performance isn't what you want it to be performance isn't what you want it to be why why why right and and pinpoint for those that

right and and pinpoint for those that right and and pinpoint for those that are are going to be successful and it are are going to be successful and it are are going to be successful and it pinpoint those those pain points and

pinpoint those those pain points and pinpoint those those pain points and really solve them too so I think there's

really solve them too so I think there's really solve them too so I think there's a lot on the horizon for for affiliate

a lot on the horizon for for affiliate a lot on the horizon for for affiliate marketing and it'll be really exciting

marketing and it'll be really exciting marketing and it'll be really exciting to to watch it evolve uh and see what

to to watch it evolve uh and see what to to watch it evolve uh and see what happens yeah I'm pretty excited I mean

happens yeah I'm pretty excited I mean happens yeah I'm pretty excited I mean just I feel fortunate to be in the space

just I feel fortunate to be in the space just I feel fortunate to be in the space at the this time and uh yeah my job now

at the this time and uh yeah my job now at the this time and uh yeah my job now is to make sure that I've got my foot in

is to make sure that I've got my foot in is to make sure that I've got my foot in the door outside the industry where I'm

the door outside the industry where I'm the door outside the industry where I'm spending time with data scientists and

spending time with data scientists and spending time with data scientists and basically taking a step into your world

basically taking a step into your world basically taking a step into your world and making sure that these two start

and making sure that these two start and making sure that these two start talking to each other talking to each other talking to each other great yeah well uh uh you know I hope

great yeah well uh uh you know I hope great yeah well uh uh you know I hope you're doing that with the the kind of

you're doing that with the the kind of you're doing that with the the kind of understanding of of data storytelling

understanding of of data storytelling understanding of of data storytelling that we we would have talked about

that we we would have talked about that we we would have talked about um and that you are you're able to to

um and that you are you're able to to um and that you are you're able to to evangelize some of those ideas as well

evangelize some of those ideas as well evangelize some of those ideas as well and bring some much needed better data

and bring some much needed better data and bring some much needed better data visualization to a category that that

visualization to a category that that visualization to a category that that really is is really requires it yeah the

really is is really requires it yeah the really is is really requires it yeah the databiz is a work in progress and the

databiz is a work in progress and the databiz is a work in progress and the storytelling uh that's uh maybe

storytelling uh that's uh maybe storytelling uh that's uh maybe challenging but that's the fun part challenging but that's the fun part challenging but that's the fun part where we can uncover stories and work

where we can uncover stories and work where we can uncover stories and work with Affiliates and say if you can help

with Affiliates and say if you can help with Affiliates and say if you can help us we'll look at your data and you know

us we'll look at your data and you know us we'll look at your data and you know let's see if we can make some case let's see if we can make some case let's see if we can make some case studies and the case studies are where

studies and the case studies are where studies and the case studies are where things come to life yeah Kevin uh thank

things come to life yeah Kevin uh thank things come to life yeah Kevin uh thank you so much for doing this uh I'm gonna

you so much for doing this uh I'm gonna you so much for doing this uh I'm gonna share your contact information for all

share your contact information for all share your contact information for all your courses and uh your books as well

your courses and uh your books as well your courses and uh your books as well so if you just want to share how people

so if you just want to share how people so if you just want to share how people can get a hold of you can get a hold of you can get a hold of you yeah I I'm on LinkedIn uh connect with

yeah I I'm on LinkedIn uh connect with yeah I I'm on LinkedIn uh connect with me there for sure uh that's that's

me there for sure uh that's that's me there for sure uh that's that's probably the easiest way for you to

probably the easiest way for you to probably the easiest way for you to reach out uh and I spent a good deal of

reach out uh and I spent a good deal of reach out uh and I spent a good deal of time there I I also my my email address

time there I I also my my email address time there I I also my my email address uh I'm happy to give that as well it's

uh I'm happy to give that as well it's uh I'm happy to give that as well it's just Kay Hartman at

just Kay Hartman at just Kay Hartman at nd.edu that's uh that's my teaching

nd.edu that's uh that's my teaching nd.edu that's uh that's my teaching address and where you'll you'll always address and where you'll you'll always address and where you'll you'll always be able to reach me be able to reach me be able to reach me awesome thank you so much of course

awesome thank you so much of course awesome thank you so much of course thank you John

thank you John thank you John thank you for tuning in to the affiliate

thank you for tuning in to the affiliate thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to

bi podcast I'd like to take this time to bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating

ask for a small favor to leave a rating ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your

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