Advanced tracking and analytics with Allan Stone of Intelitics

whether you're an SEO affiliate whether you're an SEO affiliate traditional or you're a performance

traditional or you're a performance traditional or you're a performance marketer I think the minimum

marketer I think the minimum marketer I think the minimum requirements are the operator needs to

requirements are the operator needs to requirements are the operator needs to have the ability or the partners you have the ability or the partners you have the ability or the partners you have the ability to pass Dynamic

have the ability to pass Dynamic have the ability to pass Dynamic variables there's a reason why five UTM

variables there's a reason why five UTM variables there's a reason why five UTM parameters on Google is the standard

parameters on Google is the standard parameters on Google is the standard because that's typically how how many

because that's typically how how many because that's typically how how many levels down you need to go in order to levels down you need to go in order to levels down you need to go in order to be able to optimize effectively that

be able to optimize effectively that be able to optimize effectively that does not exist currently with the with

does not exist currently with the with does not exist currently with the with the current solutions that most these the current solutions that most these the current solutions that most these operators have deployed so that is a

operators have deployed so that is a operators have deployed so that is a table stake for most performance table stake for most performance table stake for most performance marketers if you don't have that they

marketers if you don't have that they marketers if you don't have that they can't do the analysis optimization on

can't do the analysis optimization on can't do the analysis optimization on their end that they need to be able to their end that they need to be able to their end that they need to be able to do therefore they're starting off on the

do therefore they're starting off on the do therefore they're starting off on the wrong foot I'm John Wright and you're

wrong foot I'm John Wright and you're wrong foot I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by stat strong

podcast brought to you by stat strong podcast brought to you by stat strong welcome to affiliate bi podcast we got a

welcome to affiliate bi podcast we got a welcome to affiliate bi podcast we got a special guest here Alan Stone I've known

special guest here Alan Stone I've known special guest here Alan Stone I've known him for a couple years and he's the the

him for a couple years and he's the the him for a couple years and he's the the founder of intelitics so I'm going to

founder of intelitics so I'm going to founder of intelitics so I'm going to pass it over to you to tell us about pass it over to you to tell us about pass it over to you to tell us about yourself yourself yourself hey John how's it going

hey John how's it going hey John how's it going um thanks for having me

um thanks for having me um thanks for having me a little bit about myself uh yeah so I'm

a little bit about myself uh yeah so I'm a little bit about myself uh yeah so I'm the co-founder and CEO of intolytics um

the co-founder and CEO of intolytics um the co-founder and CEO of intolytics um intolytics was born out of a desire to

intolytics was born out of a desire to intolytics was born out of a desire to actually not a desire more of a need to

actually not a desire more of a need to actually not a desire more of a need to build technology for real money gaming

build technology for real money gaming build technology for real money gaming space that would allow us to answer some

space that would allow us to answer some space that would allow us to answer some very complex challenging problems uh

very complex challenging problems uh very complex challenging problems uh when it came to deploying campaigns at

when it came to deploying campaigns at when it came to deploying campaigns at scale on behalf of operators so trying

scale on behalf of operators so trying scale on behalf of operators so trying to understand to understand to understand user acquisition cost at scale across

user acquisition cost at scale across user acquisition cost at scale across channels and sources but not just that

channels and sources but not just that channels and sources but not just that looking at what those users were

looking at what those users were looking at what those users were actually Worth Post acquisition so being

actually Worth Post acquisition so being actually Worth Post acquisition so being able to be very intelligent with

able to be very intelligent with able to be very intelligent with impression to conversion to retention

impression to conversion to retention impression to conversion to retention and monetization of those players over

and monetization of those players over and monetization of those players over time so we could make better informed

time so we could make better informed time so we could make better informed decisions on where we're buying decisions on where we're buying decisions on where we're buying customers which campaigns we're going to

customers which campaigns we're going to customers which campaigns we're going to be scaling and which campaigns to turn

be scaling and which campaigns to turn be scaling and which campaigns to turn off off off so I mean what you just said there I

so I mean what you just said there I so I mean what you just said there I mean if we were at a conference and

mean if we were at a conference and mean if we were at a conference and we're talking about this the same stuff

we're talking about this the same stuff we're talking about this the same stuff like five or ten years ago people are

like five or ten years ago people are like five or ten years ago people are big okay that's kind of like a necessary

big okay that's kind of like a necessary big okay that's kind of like a necessary evil I mean like we need tracking we

evil I mean like we need tracking we evil I mean like we need tracking we need all of that need all of that need all of that um what have you seen over the last um what have you seen over the last um what have you seen over the last maybe it's five or ten years where

maybe it's five or ten years where maybe it's five or ten years where there's been a big change in interest

there's been a big change in interest there's been a big change in interest where affiliate program software isn't

where affiliate program software isn't where affiliate program software isn't just a necessity there's a lot of power

just a necessity there's a lot of power just a necessity there's a lot of power behind it in terms of like you know what

behind it in terms of like you know what behind it in terms of like you know what data operators need and what can be done

data operators need and what can be done data operators need and what can be done with it yeah I think um

with it yeah I think um with it yeah I think um I think this industry is unique in that

I think this industry is unique in that I think this industry is unique in that it is you know it is sort of if you

it is you know it is sort of if you it is you know it is sort of if you build it they will come right uh you

build it they will come right uh you build it they will come right uh you know Benny and gaming gambling however

know Benny and gaming gambling however know Benny and gaming gambling however you want to call it it's there it's an you want to call it it's there it's an you want to call it it's there it's an inherently it's an entertainment product inherently it's an entertainment product inherently it's an entertainment product and people want to engage with and people want to engage with and people want to engage with entertainment products and so that that

entertainment products and so that that entertainment products and so that that mentality I think was born a little bit

mentality I think was born a little bit mentality I think was born a little bit out of out of out of hey if you can set up a brand and do

hey if you can set up a brand and do hey if you can set up a brand and do things right you'll you'll just make things right you'll you'll just make things right you'll you'll just make money no matter what

money no matter what money no matter what um I think the shift has come into sort

um I think the shift has come into sort um I think the shift has come into sort of when we look at it there's two very

of when we look at it there's two very of when we look at it there's two very sort of distinct catalysts that have

sort of distinct catalysts that have sort of distinct catalysts that have caused that shift number one is the caused that shift number one is the caused that shift number one is the shift in consumer Behavior so instead of

shift in consumer Behavior so instead of shift in consumer Behavior so instead of sitting down and engaging in a you know

sitting down and engaging in a you know sitting down and engaging in a you know long form entertainment sessions where

long form entertainment sessions where long form entertainment sessions where they were sitting there for hours on end

they were sitting there for hours on end they were sitting there for hours on end um you know the shift to mobile caused

um you know the shift to mobile caused um you know the shift to mobile caused um you know a difference and and how

um you know a difference and and how um you know a difference and and how consumers interact with Brands and

consumers interact with Brands and consumers interact with Brands and content and so that that shift was one

content and so that that shift was one content and so that that shift was one of those was one of those moves I think

of those was one of those moves I think of those was one of those moves I think the second one was the fact that our

the second one was the fact that our the second one was the fact that our industry is maturing and now you look at

industry is maturing and now you look at industry is maturing and now you look at the big players and they're all publicly the big players and they're all publicly the big players and they're all publicly traded right so there's a very it's a

traded right so there's a very it's a traded right so there's a very it's a very different

very different very different um mindset to growth or to scaling

um mindset to growth or to scaling um mindset to growth or to scaling businesses when you have a public market

businesses when you have a public market businesses when you have a public market to answer to I think those two

to answer to I think those two to answer to I think those two if we were to look at it those would be

if we were to look at it those would be if we were to look at it those would be just sort of the two biggest catalysts

just sort of the two biggest catalysts just sort of the two biggest catalysts for okay

for okay for okay the software and the solutions that

the software and the solutions that the software and the solutions that exist need to become more data driven

exist need to become more data driven exist need to become more data driven and more intelligent

and more intelligent and more intelligent um and they need to do so in a way that um and they need to do so in a way that um and they need to do so in a way that is scalable beyond what we had seen up

is scalable beyond what we had seen up is scalable beyond what we had seen up to clock the last five years right

to clock the last five years right to clock the last five years right um I think those two things are really

um I think those two things are really um I think those two things are really major or really what's driving this if

major or really what's driving this if major or really what's driving this if you look at sort of the current and

you look at sort of the current and you look at sort of the current and those are historical right you know that

those are historical right you know that those are historical right you know that consumer shift happened around 20 2012

consumer shift happened around 20 2012 consumer shift happened around 20 2012 and then more recently that's in the

and then more recently that's in the and then more recently that's in the last six years when a lot of these

last six years when a lot of these last six years when a lot of these Affiliates plus operators were going

Affiliates plus operators were going Affiliates plus operators were going public even in the last three years I

public even in the last three years I public even in the last three years I think the macro environment that we find think the macro environment that we find think the macro environment that we find ourselves in now and what's driving sort

ourselves in now and what's driving sort ourselves in now and what's driving sort of this the topic and the desire more

of this the topic and the desire more of this the topic and the desire more recently has been

recently has been recently has been uh the culmination of those things

uh the culmination of those things uh the culmination of those things happening at the same time so you have

happening at the same time so you have happening at the same time so you have the bottom-up pressure of

the bottom-up pressure of the bottom-up pressure of not only Affiliates but other marketing

not only Affiliates but other marketing not only Affiliates but other marketing Partners really putting pressure on Partners really putting pressure on Partners really putting pressure on operators to have better technology and

operators to have better technology and operators to have better technology and give them better solutions to be able to

give them better solutions to be able to give them better solutions to be able to be more intelligent with what's working be more intelligent with what's working be more intelligent with what's working what's not what's not what's not um and then again you just have the the um and then again you just have the the um and then again you just have the the public market pressure now of hey

public market pressure now of hey public market pressure now of hey um we as we as a public we as

um we as we as a public we as um we as we as a public we as shareholders want to see more

shareholders want to see more shareholders want to see more um more diligence around where you're

um more diligence around where you're um more diligence around where you're spending money and what you're actually spending money and what you're actually spending money and what you're actually getting for the money you're spending getting for the money you're spending getting for the money you're spending and so I think those two things really

and so I think those two things really and so I think those two things really are starting to come to a head right now

are starting to come to a head right now are starting to come to a head right now I mean really in the last two quarters

I mean really in the last two quarters I mean really in the last two quarters yeah and it's really interesting that I

yeah and it's really interesting that I yeah and it's really interesting that I mean even with the affiliate groups

mean even with the affiliate groups mean even with the affiliate groups where they're public and a lot of them

where they're public and a lot of them where they're public and a lot of them are sharing certain types of data where

are sharing certain types of data where are sharing certain types of data where it's a breakdown of the revenue

it's a breakdown of the revenue it's a breakdown of the revenue um what would you say like are the um what would you say like are the um what would you say like are the differences between Performance differences between Performance differences between Performance Marketing Affiliates and I think what we

Marketing Affiliates and I think what we Marketing Affiliates and I think what we want to call everyone else's more SEO

want to call everyone else's more SEO want to call everyone else's more SEO Affiliates I mean we're starting to see

Affiliates I mean we're starting to see Affiliates I mean we're starting to see more of these numbers show up in these more of these numbers show up in these more of these numbers show up in these reports and companies saying you know

reports and companies saying you know reports and companies saying you know this is actually a more important

this is actually a more important this is actually a more important segment and starting to maybe grow

segment and starting to maybe grow segment and starting to maybe grow bigger than SEO

bigger than SEO bigger than SEO yeah look I think we have the fortunate

yeah look I think we have the fortunate yeah look I think we have the fortunate um um um insight to having done a lot of business

insight to having done a lot of business insight to having done a lot of business outside of gaming and so I think what

outside of gaming and so I think what outside of gaming and so I think what you're starting to see is the gaming you're starting to see is the gaming you're starting to see is the gaming industry catch up to every other industry catch up to every other industry catch up to every other vertical vertical vertical um um um yeah again I think it's a lot of it's

yeah again I think it's a lot of it's yeah again I think it's a lot of it's driven by consumer Behavior right

driven by consumer Behavior right driven by consumer Behavior right um consumers are less likely to sit down

um consumers are less likely to sit down um consumers are less likely to sit down and read a 4 000 word review on you know

and read a 4 000 word review on you know and read a 4 000 word review on you know a particular slot game they're more

a particular slot game they're more a particular slot game they're more interested in finding out hey

interested in finding out hey interested in finding out hey I play this way I'm looking for this

I play this way I'm looking for this I play this way I'm looking for this type of bonus and I'm looking for this

type of bonus and I'm looking for this type of bonus and I'm looking for this type of uh of uh an experience with a

type of uh of uh an experience with a type of uh of uh an experience with a brand which brands provide that to me

brand which brands provide that to me brand which brands provide that to me right right right um so I think I think the shift that

um so I think I think the shift that um so I think I think the shift that you're starting to see happen or the you're starting to see happen or the you're starting to see happen or the maturity that you're trying to see maturity that you're trying to see maturity that you're trying to see happen really more than anything is

happen really more than anything is happen really more than anything is um the consumer behavior is moving in a

um the consumer behavior is moving in a um the consumer behavior is moving in a way that allows for more quote-unquote

way that allows for more quote-unquote way that allows for more quote-unquote performance marketers versus the

performance marketers versus the performance marketers versus the traditional SEO Affiliates

traditional SEO Affiliates traditional SEO Affiliates um to enter the space now I think

um to enter the space now I think um to enter the space now I think I think that those guys are

I think that those guys are I think that those guys are um I think there was a push around 2018

um I think there was a push around 2018 um I think there was a push around 2018 2019 and so I think a lot of those guys

2019 and so I think a lot of those guys 2019 and so I think a lot of those guys got a bad taste in their mouth because

got a bad taste in their mouth because got a bad taste in their mouth because again the technology didn't exist then

again the technology didn't exist then again the technology didn't exist then it wasn't widely adopted at that point

it wasn't widely adopted at that point it wasn't widely adopted at that point by most operators but I think what

by most operators but I think what by most operators but I think what you're seeing is you're seeing is you're seeing is um um um a desire from The Operators to expand

a desire from The Operators to expand a desire from The Operators to expand their channels beyond what they're their channels beyond what they're their channels beyond what they're currently getting they have to continue

currently getting they have to continue currently getting they have to continue to grow and uh I think what you're

to grow and uh I think what you're to grow and uh I think what you're seeing is again there's just the seeing is again there's just the seeing is again there's just the Tailwinds and the industry in general a

Tailwinds and the industry in general a Tailwinds and the industry in general a lot of these non-traditional performance

lot of these non-traditional performance lot of these non-traditional performance marketers are looking at the betting

marketers are looking at the betting marketers are looking at the betting industry saying okay well now maybe

industry saying okay well now maybe industry saying okay well now maybe they've come maybe they've matured a

they've come maybe they've matured a they've come maybe they've matured a little bit more maybe there's some little bit more maybe there's some little bit more maybe there's some opportunity for us to re-engage and test

opportunity for us to re-engage and test opportunity for us to re-engage and test but in terms of the difference

but in terms of the difference but in terms of the difference to be fair I think the Gap is closing in

to be fair I think the Gap is closing in to be fair I think the Gap is closing in the in the difference what I mean by the in the difference what I mean by the in the difference what I mean by that is you know even the guys who have

that is you know even the guys who have that is you know even the guys who have high intent SEO they're they're being

high intent SEO they're they're being high intent SEO they're they're being very methodical and scientific around

very methodical and scientific around very methodical and scientific around okay I'm gonna spend money to

okay I'm gonna spend money to okay I'm gonna spend money to um improve my content add additional

um improve my content add additional um improve my content add additional resources do all those things they're

resources do all those things they're resources do all those things they're trying to get as granular with that

trying to get as granular with that trying to get as granular with that return on investment as the operator is

return on investment as the operator is return on investment as the operator is and definitely as granular as those

and definitely as granular as those and definitely as granular as those performance marketers traditional performance marketers traditional performance marketers traditional performance marketers are because performance marketers are because performance marketers are because they're paying for every click that

they're paying for every click that they're paying for every click that they're delivering and so they need to

they're delivering and so they need to they're delivering and so they need to know and as close to real time as

know and as close to real time as know and as close to real time as possible if I paid to buy this

possible if I paid to buy this possible if I paid to buy this impression that resulted in a click

impression that resulted in a click impression that resulted in a click um am I going to get a return on that

um am I going to get a return on that um am I going to get a return on that investment investment investment um because that that player is going to

um because that that player is going to um because that that player is going to actually convert and then how do I do

actually convert and then how do I do actually convert and then how do I do that at scale so

that at scale so that at scale so um I got two questions so one is like

um I got two questions so one is like um I got two questions so one is like what kind of tools do Affiliates need or

what kind of tools do Affiliates need or what kind of tools do Affiliates need or Performance Marketing Affiliates need Performance Marketing Affiliates need Performance Marketing Affiliates need that aren't always provided with the a

that aren't always provided with the a that aren't always provided with the a lot of The Operators and the the other

lot of The Operators and the the other lot of The Operators and the the other one is kind of like what's your take in

one is kind of like what's your take in one is kind of like what's your take in terms of like how many like we know like

terms of like how many like we know like terms of like how many like we know like there's like thousands of online casinos

there's like thousands of online casinos there's like thousands of online casinos out there but I've talked to quite a few

out there but I've talked to quite a few out there but I've talked to quite a few that they're not really tapped into the

that they're not really tapped into the that they're not really tapped into the Performance Marketing space and they Performance Marketing space and they Performance Marketing space and they don't really know what values there and

don't really know what values there and don't really know what values there and I have talked to some operators which I have talked to some operators which I have talked to some operators which say say say um they almost want to keep this a um they almost want to keep this a um they almost want to keep this a secret like you know stay out of the secret like you know stay out of the secret like you know stay out of the space because it's really good right now

space because it's really good right now space because it's really good right now so what's your take on both of those

so what's your take on both of those so what's your take on both of those angles angles angles so in terms of tech we we always refer

so in terms of tech we we always refer so in terms of tech we we always refer to it as table stakes and I don't think to it as table stakes and I don't think to it as table stakes and I don't think to me it doesn't matter if you're again

to me it doesn't matter if you're again to me it doesn't matter if you're again we don't differentiate between the two I

we don't differentiate between the two I we don't differentiate between the two I think it's table Stakes across the board think it's table Stakes across the board think it's table Stakes across the board whether you're an SEO affiliate whether you're an SEO affiliate whether you're an SEO affiliate traditional or you're a performance

traditional or you're a performance traditional or you're a performance marketer marketer marketer um I think the minimum requirements are

um I think the minimum requirements are um I think the minimum requirements are you need to have the ability the

you need to have the ability the you need to have the ability the operator needs to have the ability or operator needs to have the ability or operator needs to have the ability or the partners have the ability to pass

the partners have the ability to pass the partners have the ability to pass Dynamic variables

Dynamic variables Dynamic variables um and not just one not just two up to

um and not just one not just two up to um and not just one not just two up to five so think of think of it the same

five so think of think of it the same five so think of think of it the same way as Google has UTM parameters right

way as Google has UTM parameters right way as Google has UTM parameters right there's a reason why five UTM parameters

there's a reason why five UTM parameters there's a reason why five UTM parameters on Google is the standard because that's

on Google is the standard because that's on Google is the standard because that's typically how how many levels down you

typically how how many levels down you typically how how many levels down you need to go in order to be able to need to go in order to be able to need to go in order to be able to optimize effectively that does not exist

optimize effectively that does not exist optimize effectively that does not exist currently with the with the current

currently with the with the current currently with the with the current solutions that most these operators have

solutions that most these operators have solutions that most these operators have deployed so that is a table stake for

deployed so that is a table stake for deployed so that is a table stake for most performance marketers if you don't most performance marketers if you don't most performance marketers if you don't have that they can't do the analysis and

have that they can't do the analysis and have that they can't do the analysis and optimization on their end that they need optimization on their end that they need optimization on their end that they need to be able to do therefore they're

to be able to do therefore they're to be able to do therefore they're starting off on the wrong foot I think

starting off on the wrong foot I think starting off on the wrong foot I think just as important

just as important just as important um and maybe even critically more so is

um and maybe even critically more so is um and maybe even critically more so is a real-time feedback loop on the data of

a real-time feedback loop on the data of a real-time feedback loop on the data of what actions are being taken post click

what actions are being taken post click what actions are being taken post click so I deliver a user they get to the

so I deliver a user they get to the so I deliver a user they get to the landing page they fill out page one boom

landing page they fill out page one boom landing page they fill out page one boom that action was taken trigger uh they

that action was taken trigger uh they that action was taken trigger uh they complete a full registration that's

complete a full registration that's complete a full registration that's trigger number two and now they've

trigger number two and now they've trigger number two and now they've funded an account and made it a funded an account and made it a funded an account and made it a successful first deposit that's trigger

successful first deposit that's trigger successful first deposit that's trigger number three those three things we view

number three those three things we view number three those three things we view as again table sticks if you don't have

as again table sticks if you don't have as again table sticks if you don't have those three things then those three things then those three things then most performance marketers aren't going

most performance marketers aren't going most performance marketers aren't going to take you seriously and they're not to take you seriously and they're not to take you seriously and they're not even going to look at it very seriously even going to look at it very seriously even going to look at it very seriously at all at all at all um and if you want to be successful as

um and if you want to be successful as um and if you want to be successful as an operator with getting those campaigns

an operator with getting those campaigns an operator with getting those campaigns up and running and successful and being

up and running and successful and being up and running and successful and being able to optimize them and be able to get

able to optimize them and be able to get able to optimize them and be able to get as as much value out of those campaigns

as as much value out of those campaigns as as much value out of those campaigns as possible you need those things you

as possible you need those things you as possible you need those things you have to be able to have those uh in

have to be able to have those uh in have to be able to have those uh in place in order to be able to

place in order to be able to place in order to be able to effectively make sure that the capital

effectively make sure that the capital effectively make sure that the capital you're deploying is going to be going to

you're deploying is going to be going to you're deploying is going to be going to be spent properly be spent properly be spent properly I think the sort of third layer we look

I think the sort of third layer we look I think the sort of third layer we look at a lot of times

at a lot of times at a lot of times when evaluating what creates success and

when evaluating what creates success and when evaluating what creates success and doesn't doesn't doesn't uh it's about the willingness and the

uh it's about the willingness and the uh it's about the willingness and the desire to provide that data transparency

desire to provide that data transparency desire to provide that data transparency of the post acquisition performance of

of the post acquisition performance of of the post acquisition performance of those players so hey

those players so hey those players so hey you know if you've got a Performance

you know if you've got a Performance you know if you've got a Performance Marketing partner and

Marketing partner and Marketing partner and there's a you know you're expecting a

there's a you know you're expecting a there's a you know you're expecting a certain number of players to be certain number of players to be certain number of players to be delivered at a certain cost it's not

delivered at a certain cost it's not delivered at a certain cost it's not just about can I acquire those players just about can I acquire those players just about can I acquire those players for that cost it's about am I can I

for that cost it's about am I can I for that cost it's about am I can I acquire those players for that cost acquire those players for that cost acquire those players for that cost within how are those players performing

within how are those players performing within how are those players performing over time with the product once they're

over time with the product once they're over time with the product once they're there there there and most performance marketers want to

and most performance marketers want to and most performance marketers want to know that they want to know hey I I need

know that they want to know hey I I need know that they want to know hey I I need to optimize my campaigns for a post

to optimize my campaigns for a post to optimize my campaigns for a post acquisition performance metric what is

acquisition performance metric what is acquisition performance metric what is it what can we normalize it to so that's

it what can we normalize it to so that's it what can we normalize it to so that's easily transferable and digestible not

easily transferable and digestible not easily transferable and digestible not something very complex something very something very complex something very something very complex something very simple and attainable

simple and attainable simple and attainable um that give us as a partner the right

um that give us as a partner the right um that give us as a partner the right indicator that we're sending you the indicator that we're sending you the indicator that we're sending you the right players

right players right players um and that's again those are the those

um and that's again those are the those um and that's again those are the those are the three sort of categories of what

are the three sort of categories of what are the three sort of categories of what we call table Stakes like hey you have

we call table Stakes like hey you have we call table Stakes like hey you have to be doing these things as an operator to be doing these things as an operator to be doing these things as an operator if you want to have any any chance of

if you want to have any any chance of if you want to have any any chance of success uh in being a profitable

success uh in being a profitable success uh in being a profitable operator in any sort of competitive

operator in any sort of competitive operator in any sort of competitive environment yeah I know it makes sense I

environment yeah I know it makes sense I environment yeah I know it makes sense I mean I've talked to a lot of different mean I've talked to a lot of different mean I've talked to a lot of different software providers that do things like

software providers that do things like software providers that do things like you know postbacks and dynamic variable

you know postbacks and dynamic variable you know postbacks and dynamic variable tracking and it's the same conversations

tracking and it's the same conversations tracking and it's the same conversations uh these operators are being dragged to

uh these operators are being dragged to uh these operators are being dragged to these software companies saying we won't

these software companies saying we won't these software companies saying we won't work with you unless you have the setup

work with you unless you have the setup work with you unless you have the setup so go get it set up and then then we can

so go get it set up and then then we can so go get it set up and then then we can actually have a discussion and it's uh I

actually have a discussion and it's uh I actually have a discussion and it's uh I think it's think it's think it's um maybe not the the right way of going

um maybe not the the right way of going um maybe not the the right way of going about it but it's still getting the job

about it but it's still getting the job about it but it's still getting the job done where this this still has to happen

done where this this still has to happen done where this this still has to happen yeah I think

yeah I think yeah I think I think what's interesting from an I think what's interesting from an I think what's interesting from an operator's perspective and the feedback operator's perspective and the feedback operator's perspective and the feedback that we've gotten is that look it's not

that we've gotten is that look it's not that we've gotten is that look it's not just the performance marketers it's not

just the performance marketers it's not just the performance marketers it's not just your existing SEO partners that are

just your existing SEO partners that are just your existing SEO partners that are delivering you great players right now delivering you great players right now delivering you great players right now that could benefit from this

that could benefit from this that could benefit from this the the money you're deploying

the the money you're deploying the the money you're deploying internally the third party creative

internally the third party creative internally the third party creative agency that you're using the

agency that you're using the agency that you're using the um the SC or the PPC agency that you're

um the SC or the PPC agency that you're um the SC or the PPC agency that you're using or you know your internal PPC team

using or you know your internal PPC team using or you know your internal PPC team right right right um all of those teams will benefit from

um all of those teams will benefit from um all of those teams will benefit from these because these these table Stakes

these because these these table Stakes these because these these table Stakes are not just for Affiliates this is

are not just for Affiliates this is are not just for Affiliates this is digital marketing this is digital

digital marketing this is digital digital marketing this is digital marketing 101 table sticks this is not

marketing 101 table sticks this is not marketing 101 table sticks this is not Performance Marketing table sticks like

Performance Marketing table sticks like Performance Marketing table sticks like if you're spending money at all whether

if you're spending money at all whether if you're spending money at all whether it's it's it's Affiliates performance marketers

Affiliates performance marketers Affiliates performance marketers uh you know influencer campaigns or your

uh you know influencer campaigns or your uh you know influencer campaigns or your own Facebook campaigns you've got to be

own Facebook campaigns you've got to be own Facebook campaigns you've got to be you have to have these things in place

you have to have these things in place you have to have these things in place in order to be able to have the campaign

in order to be able to have the campaign in order to be able to have the campaign work and optimize

work and optimize work and optimize exactly and uh next I want to go into

exactly and uh next I want to go into exactly and uh next I want to go into what do you think is going to be what do you think is going to be what do you think is going to be changing or has to change in the next

changing or has to change in the next changing or has to change in the next few years both in Performance Marketing

few years both in Performance Marketing few years both in Performance Marketing and in affiliate marketing

and in affiliate marketing and in affiliate marketing yeah

yeah yeah um

so more broadly or specifically for our so more broadly or specifically for our space

space space um I kind of want to say both but let's

um I kind of want to say both but let's um I kind of want to say both but let's start with let's start with igaming start with let's start with igaming start with let's start with igaming first

first first yeah so so in eye gaming I think what

yeah so so in eye gaming I think what yeah so so in eye gaming I think what you're going to see you're going to see you're going to see what needs to happen is a greater

what needs to happen is a greater what needs to happen is a greater adoption of the right technology data

adoption of the right technology data adoption of the right technology data stack to get those

stack to get those stack to get those um table stakes in place I think once

um table stakes in place I think once um table stakes in place I think once that's there that's there that's there um a greater understanding of

um a greater understanding of um a greater understanding of the Partnerships that are available so

the Partnerships that are available so the Partnerships that are available so looking at Partnerships as less

looking at Partnerships as less looking at Partnerships as less transactional so so a lot of times

transactional so so a lot of times transactional so so a lot of times operators are looking at their affiliate

operators are looking at their affiliate operators are looking at their affiliate or performance Partners as just or performance Partners as just or performance Partners as just acquisition Partners right

acquisition Partners right acquisition Partners right um I think you're going to start to see

um I think you're going to start to see um I think you're going to start to see as the market consolidates in terms of

as the market consolidates in terms of as the market consolidates in terms of Who The Operators are and also

Who The Operators are and also Who The Operators are and also consolidates in terms of who is

consolidates in terms of who is consolidates in terms of who is controlling what

controlling what controlling what um access to to which you know which

um access to to which you know which um access to to which you know which customers and then as well as the the

customers and then as well as the the customers and then as well as the the shift in consumer privacy and lack of

shift in consumer privacy and lack of shift in consumer privacy and lack of third-party cookies all of those things third-party cookies all of those things third-party cookies all of those things are leading to are leading to are leading to the evolution of the Partnerships from

the evolution of the Partnerships from the evolution of the Partnerships from purely acquisition to acquisition Plus

purely acquisition to acquisition Plus purely acquisition to acquisition Plus additional reach into those players

additional reach into those players additional reach into those players right right right um the conversations that we see um the conversations that we see um the conversations that we see happening in North America specifically

happening in North America specifically happening in North America specifically is okay we need to grow net new users

is okay we need to grow net new users is okay we need to grow net new users but we also need to grow our share of

but we also need to grow our share of but we also need to grow our share of wallet within the existing user base we

wallet within the existing user base we wallet within the existing user base we already have already have already have um how can those how can those

um how can those how can those um how can those how can those performance Partners or affiliate performance Partners or affiliate performance Partners or affiliate Partners who you originally thought of

Partners who you originally thought of Partners who you originally thought of as primarily or or exclusively in

as primarily or or exclusively in as primarily or or exclusively in acquisition partner how do those

acquisition partner how do those acquisition partner how do those relationships evolve to into something

relationships evolve to into something relationships evolve to into something that is acquisition Plus

that is acquisition Plus that is acquisition Plus um you know retention or or ongoing you

um you know retention or or ongoing you um you know retention or or ongoing you know promotion know promotion know promotion um and the um and the um and the the knee-jerk reaction is roll Rapture

the knee-jerk reaction is roll Rapture the knee-jerk reaction is roll Rapture right tire and Order rupture I think

right tire and Order rupture I think right tire and Order rupture I think that's very complex I think at the end

that's very complex I think at the end that's very complex I think at the end of the day again talk about the fact

of the day again talk about the fact of the day again talk about the fact that these operators are publicly traded that these operators are publicly traded that these operators are publicly traded a revenue share partnership immediately

a revenue share partnership immediately a revenue share partnership immediately moves that that relationship into a

moves that that relationship into a moves that that relationship into a liability column as opposed to uh Opex

liability column as opposed to uh Opex liability column as opposed to uh Opex so I think there's a I think there's

so I think there's a I think there's so I think there's a I think there's headwinds there I think there's more

headwinds there I think there's more headwinds there I think there's more creative ways to get it done

creative ways to get it done creative ways to get it done um where um where um where you're creating alignment between the

you're creating alignment between the you're creating alignment between the two you know all the stakeholders

two you know all the stakeholders two you know all the stakeholders um but it's not something that's going

um but it's not something that's going um but it's not something that's going to end up potentially having the chance to end up potentially having the chance to end up potentially having the chance to be one-sided either way either in

to be one-sided either way either in to be one-sided either way either in favor of the operator or or the partner

favor of the operator or or the partner favor of the operator or or the partner um so I think you're going to see a lot

um so I think you're going to see a lot um so I think you're going to see a lot more sort of dynamic Partnerships evolve

more sort of dynamic Partnerships evolve more sort of dynamic Partnerships evolve or dynamic commercial Arrangements

or dynamic commercial Arrangements or dynamic commercial Arrangements inside of those Partnerships starting to inside of those Partnerships starting to inside of those Partnerships starting to evolve evolve evolve um I think you're going to continue to

um I think you're going to continue to um I think you're going to continue to see more see more see more uh

uh uh uh more consolidation around where

uh more consolidation around where uh more consolidation around where consumers are spending their dollars I

consumers are spending their dollars I consumers are spending their dollars I think the thing that our industry

think the thing that our industry think the thing that our industry tends to forget is we're competing

tends to forget is we're competing tends to forget is we're competing against other verticals right everyone

against other verticals right everyone against other verticals right everyone knows that a better has high intent and

knows that a better has high intent and knows that a better has high intent and can spend money and right and so as much

can spend money and right and so as much can spend money and right and so as much as you know when you talk to an operator

as you know when you talk to an operator as you know when you talk to an operator they're like we want to be number one they're like we want to be number one they're like we want to be number one you know within our industry or we want

you know within our industry or we want you know within our industry or we want to beat out X Y and Z partner it's like

to beat out X Y and Z partner it's like to beat out X Y and Z partner it's like well yeah but you're still competing well yeah but you're still competing well yeah but you're still competing with everyone else who's also competing

with everyone else who's also competing with everyone else who's also competing for those eyeballs and a lot of times for those eyeballs and a lot of times for those eyeballs and a lot of times those guys are more Savvy they have less

those guys are more Savvy they have less those guys are more Savvy they have less friction in their conversion flow uh and

friction in their conversion flow uh and friction in their conversion flow uh and so they're going to be able to so they're going to be able to so they're going to be able to out-compete you from a dollars and cents

out-compete you from a dollars and cents out-compete you from a dollars and cents perspective even though they have a

perspective even though they have a perspective even though they have a product that that is not as high of a

product that that is not as high of a product that that is not as high of a lifetime value is not as long or as

lifetime value is not as long or as lifetime value is not as long or as engaging as a lifetime value but they're

engaging as a lifetime value but they're engaging as a lifetime value but they're able to uh move more nimbly and take

able to uh move more nimbly and take able to uh move more nimbly and take advantage of that high intent of a user

advantage of that high intent of a user advantage of that high intent of a user to purchase right so I think you're

to purchase right so I think you're to purchase right so I think you're going to start to see more operators

going to start to see more operators going to start to see more operators I at least we're hoping look and feel

I at least we're hoping look and feel I at least we're hoping look and feel and act more like a

and act more like a and act more like a you know some of these larger

you know some of these larger you know some of these larger e-commerce Brands where it's highly

e-commerce Brands where it's highly e-commerce Brands where it's highly personalized highly driven based on user

personalized highly driven based on user personalized highly driven based on user engagement and not this cookie cutter

engagement and not this cookie cutter engagement and not this cookie cutter one size fits all you show up to my

one size fits all you show up to my one size fits all you show up to my sports book and I'm putting the sports book and I'm putting the sports book and I'm putting the promotion of whatever event is happening

promotion of whatever event is happening promotion of whatever event is happening that weekend right it's going to be that weekend right it's going to be that weekend right it's going to be highly tailored user experience and

highly tailored user experience and highly tailored user experience and that's going to flow through everything

that's going to flow through everything that's going to flow through everything from from from the initial Banner on acquisition down

the initial Banner on acquisition down the initial Banner on acquisition down to what's the what's the SMS messaging

to what's the what's the SMS messaging to what's the what's the SMS messaging that I'm delivering to this customer to

that I'm delivering to this customer to that I'm delivering to this customer to get them to come and re-engage in the get them to come and re-engage in the get them to come and re-engage in the product product product yeah you're spot on that I mean when you

yeah you're spot on that I mean when you yeah you're spot on that I mean when you look at e-commerce everything looks like

look at e-commerce everything looks like look at e-commerce everything looks like advance and then when you look at

advance and then when you look at advance and then when you look at igaming you're like wait a minute it's

igaming you're like wait a minute it's igaming you're like wait a minute it's uh two different worlds yeah the

uh two different worlds yeah the uh two different worlds yeah the interesting thing is igaming actually interesting thing is igaming actually interesting thing is igaming actually has a better if you look at you know if

has a better if you look at you know if has a better if you look at you know if you break that down and you understand

you break that down and you understand you break that down and you understand the engagement of a product

the engagement of a product the engagement of a product entertainment like igaming versus a

entertainment like igaming versus a entertainment like igaming versus a versus a just a straight sale of a

versus a just a straight sale of a versus a just a straight sale of a product there are so many more

product there are so many more product there are so many more opportunities for personalization in eye

opportunities for personalization in eye opportunities for personalization in eye gaming because gaming because gaming because every player engages in a different way

every player engages in a different way every player engages in a different way and and and there's just so much more

and and and there's just so much more and and and there's just so much more Rich data available to The Operators to

Rich data available to The Operators to Rich data available to The Operators to understand okay what really makes this

understand okay what really makes this understand okay what really makes this person tick you know

person tick you know person tick you know um these e-commerce there's just way

um these e-commerce there's just way um these e-commerce there's just way less signal that they're better at it

less signal that they're better at it less signal that they're better at it and they're more the user experience is

and they're more the user experience is and they're more the user experience is more personalized and more engaging

even though they are even though they are um you know they have way less signal

um you know they have way less signal um you know they have way less signal than an operator than a gaming operator

than an operator than a gaming operator than an operator than a gaming operator would have based on how those customers

would have based on how those customers would have based on how those customers are engaging with their product

are engaging with their product are engaging with their product yeah it's very true I have two more

yeah it's very true I have two more yeah it's very true I have two more questions that are more discussion questions that are more discussion questions that are more discussion points and this is my opportunity to

points and this is my opportunity to points and this is my opportunity to pick your brain uh the first one is this

pick your brain uh the first one is this pick your brain uh the first one is this idea that most igaming affiliate sites

idea that most igaming affiliate sites idea that most igaming affiliate sites they always focus on a sign up bonus and

they always focus on a sign up bonus and they always focus on a sign up bonus and it's very rare that you see anyone focus

it's very rare that you see anyone focus it's very rare that you see anyone focus on retention do you think with some of

on retention do you think with some of on retention do you think with some of the tools that are available today we'd

the tools that are available today we'd the tools that are available today we'd actually be able to have better

actually be able to have better actually be able to have better retargeting of that user where it's like

retargeting of that user where it's like retargeting of that user where it's like hey they've already signed up to that hey they've already signed up to that hey they've already signed up to that brand whether it's bed MGM or whatever

brand whether it's bed MGM or whatever brand whether it's bed MGM or whatever and they're able to see a different

and they're able to see a different and they're able to see a different offer that might be more like 10 times

offer that might be more like 10 times offer that might be more like 10 times more useful for from retention because

more useful for from retention because more useful for from retention because you see a player that's maybe uh signed

you see a player that's maybe uh signed you see a player that's maybe uh signed up to four out of 10 sites on a listing

up to four out of 10 sites on a listing up to four out of 10 sites on a listing it's they're getting the same offer over

it's they're getting the same offer over it's they're getting the same offer over and over again it's it's kind of like a

and over again it's it's kind of like a and over again it's it's kind of like a marketing message that it just Falls a

marketing message that it just Falls a marketing message that it just Falls a bit flat what do you what do you think bit flat what do you what do you think bit flat what do you what do you think could actually change here would this be could actually change here would this be could actually change here would this be more pixel tracking to be possibly

more pixel tracking to be possibly more pixel tracking to be possibly involved involved involved yeah I don't know pixels might not be

yeah I don't know pixels might not be yeah I don't know pixels might not be the right solution to it but yeah I mean

the right solution to it but yeah I mean the right solution to it but yeah I mean more again the more

more again the more more again the more Advanced the technology The Operators

Advanced the technology The Operators Advanced the technology The Operators are deploying are deploying are deploying at scale the more opportunities for that

at scale the more opportunities for that at scale the more opportunities for that type of personalization at the affiliate

type of personalization at the affiliate type of personalization at the affiliate or performance or partner level is going

or performance or partner level is going or performance or partner level is going to get right um

to get right um to get right um you you sort of hit the nail on the head

you you sort of hit the nail on the head you you sort of hit the nail on the head there right if I'm if I'm gonna and this

there right if I'm if I'm gonna and this there right if I'm if I'm gonna and this is technology exists now like we do this

is technology exists now like we do this is technology exists now like we do this um where if a player hits my site and I

um where if a player hits my site and I um where if a player hits my site and I got them to convert at whatever sports

got them to convert at whatever sports got them to convert at whatever sports book when they come to my site again I'm

book when they come to my site again I'm book when they come to my site again I'm not showing them the offer wall with

not showing them the offer wall with not showing them the offer wall with that promotion or any promotion quite

that promotion or any promotion quite that promotion or any promotion quite frankly we are sort of obsessed with

frankly we are sort of obsessed with frankly we are sort of obsessed with that retention like hey we know that

that retention like hey we know that that retention like hey we know that this player converted with operator a

this player converted with operator a this player converted with operator a we're going to make sure that all the

we're going to make sure that all the we're going to make sure that all the ads on site are now to your point

ads on site are now to your point ads on site are now to your point retention ads it's not sign up bonus

retention ads it's not sign up bonus retention ads it's not sign up bonus it's not it's hey

it's not it's hey it's not it's hey come back and play and we'll give you an

come back and play and we'll give you an come back and play and we'll give you an additional you know 20 back or whatever

additional you know 20 back or whatever additional you know 20 back or whatever right it's all retention oriented I

right it's all retention oriented I right it's all retention oriented I think the Holy Grail of that and this is

think the Holy Grail of that and this is think the Holy Grail of that and this is what we're pushing towards and exploring

what we're pushing towards and exploring what we're pushing towards and exploring all kinds of Technologies how do we

all kinds of Technologies how do we all kinds of Technologies how do we how do we tie the ability to deep link

how do we tie the ability to deep link how do we tie the ability to deep link into exactly what that user was engaging

into exactly what that user was engaging into exactly what that user was engaging with when they were last time they were

with when they were last time they were with when they were last time they were on that operator's book so similar you

on that operator's book so similar you on that operator's book so similar you know again use the e-commerce example if

know again use the e-commerce example if know again use the e-commerce example if I'm browsing for a particular product I'm browsing for a particular product I'm browsing for a particular product and I go there and I I view a product on

and I go there and I I view a product on and I go there and I I view a product on a site now when I'm seeing ads for that

a site now when I'm seeing ads for that a site now when I'm seeing ads for that brand I'm not seeing ads for the brand

brand I'm not seeing ads for the brand brand I'm not seeing ads for the brand I'm seeing ads with a particular product I'm seeing ads with a particular product I'm seeing ads with a particular product I was looking for or if I add it to my

I was looking for or if I add it to my I was looking for or if I add it to my cart and I abandon right there are very

cart and I abandon right there are very cart and I abandon right there are very specific ways that you can Target that

specific ways that you can Target that specific ways that you can Target that user who abandoned a card say hey come

user who abandoned a card say hey come user who abandoned a card say hey come back in today we'll give you free back in today we'll give you free back in today we'll give you free shipping and you drive them directly

shipping and you drive them directly shipping and you drive them directly into the cart with the item there ready

into the cart with the item there ready into the cart with the item there ready to go right that level of

to go right that level of to go right that level of personalization again has not it hasn't

personalization again has not it hasn't personalization again has not it hasn't reached Mass adoption by The Operators

reached Mass adoption by The Operators reached Mass adoption by The Operators um and I think it's I think it's coming um and I think it's I think it's coming um and I think it's I think it's coming and that that is the type of user and that that is the type of user and that that is the type of user experience look that's the ultimate user

experience look that's the ultimate user experience look that's the ultimate user experience you're gonna you're gonna experience you're gonna you're gonna experience you're gonna you're gonna achieve and it historically that was

achieve and it historically that was achieve and it historically that was done with pixels it doesn't have to be done with pixels it doesn't have to be done with pixels it doesn't have to be done pixels this stuff the technology done pixels this stuff the technology done pixels this stuff the technology exists now where all this stuff can be

exists now where all this stuff can be exists now where all this stuff can be done in the back end

done in the back end done in the back end um where you just know like okay cool um where you just know like okay cool um where you just know like okay cool this is where this user is how it works

this is where this user is how it works this is where this user is how it works it doesn't have to be cookie based and

it doesn't have to be cookie based and it doesn't have to be cookie based and that's not third party based either that's not third party based either that's not third party based either that's the other thing the technology that's the other thing the technology that's the other thing the technology exists now to be first party or zero

exists now to be first party or zero exists now to be first party or zero party data exists to be able to do that

party data exists to be able to do that party data exists to be able to do that as an operator you do not have to rely as an operator you do not have to rely as an operator you do not have to rely on third parties telling you

on third parties telling you on third parties telling you um what that could what that user's um what that could what that user's um what that could what that user's interest is which is is going to be even

interest is which is is going to be even interest is which is is going to be even more critical going forward with all the more critical going forward with all the more critical going forward with all the different privacy policy changes that different privacy policy changes that different privacy policy changes that are happening both domestically and

are happening both domestically and are happening both domestically and abroad so yeah I mean that

abroad so yeah I mean that abroad so yeah I mean that that that is the

that that is the that that is the that is the Holy Grail and I think we're

that is the Holy Grail and I think we're that is the Holy Grail and I think we're moving that in that direction

moving that in that direction moving that in that direction um but it it starts again it just starts

um but it it starts again it just starts um but it it starts again it just starts with The Operators and their technology with The Operators and their technology with The Operators and their technology they have as Savvy as we as partner

they have as Savvy as we as partner they have as Savvy as we as partner Publishers or or marketers want to get

Publishers or or marketers want to get Publishers or or marketers want to get on their behalf on their behalf on their behalf at the end of the day we're still we are

at the end of the day we're still we are at the end of the day we're still we are limited in what we're going to be able limited in what we're going to be able limited in what we're going to be able to do for them based on their technology

for me anecdotally it's why I'm excited for me anecdotally it's why I'm excited to see someone like Fanatics right like

to see someone like Fanatics right like to see someone like Fanatics right like Fanatics already has that level of

Fanatics already has that level of Fanatics already has that level of Technology deployed on their e-commerce Technology deployed on their e-commerce Technology deployed on their e-commerce if they can take that level of if they can take that level of if they can take that level of personalization and understanding of

personalization and understanding of personalization and understanding of consumers interests and layer that

consumers interests and layer that consumers interests and layer that successfully into a sportsman successfully into a sportsman successfully into a sportsman environment environment environment it's going to be it's going to be very

it's going to be it's going to be very it's going to be it's going to be very compelling compelling compelling um you know the argument I hear a lot of

um you know the argument I hear a lot of um you know the argument I hear a lot of people say well yeah but you can't move people say well yeah but you can't move people say well yeah but you can't move those you know so because someone bought those you know so because someone bought those you know so because someone bought a jersey I mean they're better I yeah

a jersey I mean they're better I yeah a jersey I mean they're better I yeah sure I agree it's going to be a very you

sure I agree it's going to be a very you sure I agree it's going to be a very you know to me some percentage of their user know to me some percentage of their user know to me some percentage of their user base are gonna be known better and base are gonna be known better and base are gonna be known better and they're gonna be able to move them it they're gonna be able to move them it they're gonna be able to move them it could be small percentage could be could be small percentage could be could be small percentage could be significant shares jury still out but

significant shares jury still out but significant shares jury still out but what I do know is that they have the

what I do know is that they have the what I do know is that they have the technology infrastructure and the technology infrastructure and the technology infrastructure and the consumer Insight understanding

consumer Insight understanding consumer Insight understanding to doesn't matter if it's one percent or

to doesn't matter if it's one percent or to doesn't matter if it's one percent or it's ten percent or it's 30 they're

it's ten percent or it's 30 they're it's ten percent or it's 30 they're going to be able to extract maximum going to be able to extract maximum going to be able to extract maximum value out of those players because they value out of those players because they value out of those players because they understand how to create an engaging

understand how to create an engaging understand how to create an engaging user experience that speaks directly to

user experience that speaks directly to user experience that speaks directly to that player

that player that player yeah I think uh with that answer I could

yeah I think uh with that answer I could yeah I think uh with that answer I could probably ask another 20 questions but

probably ask another 20 questions but probably ask another 20 questions but we'll definitely say that for another we'll definitely say that for another we'll definitely say that for another day that's that's very interesting uh

day that's that's very interesting uh day that's that's very interesting uh the next discussion question I have is

the next discussion question I have is the next discussion question I have is you know we're in the B2B space and

you know we're in the B2B space and you know we're in the B2B space and there's a lot of Buzz about you know there's a lot of Buzz about you know there's a lot of Buzz about you know self-reported attribution where uh

self-reported attribution where uh self-reported attribution where uh there's so many touch points in the B2B

there's so many touch points in the B2B there's so many touch points in the B2B uh context and I rarely hear about this

uh context and I rarely hear about this uh context and I rarely hear about this in the b2c space where your your B2B in

in the b2c space where your your B2B in in the b2c space where your your B2B in working with operators but you're making

working with operators but you're making working with operators but you're making Enterprise software that's total b2c

Enterprise software that's total b2c Enterprise software that's total b2c um do you think there's a time and place um do you think there's a time and place um do you think there's a time and place for self self-reported attribution does

for self self-reported attribution does for self self-reported attribution does this make sense in the b2c space

yeah I mean you're starting to see it yeah I mean you're starting to see it already a little bit

already a little bit already a little bit um I think that the challenge is going

um I think that the challenge is going um I think that the challenge is going to be and who do you trust right like

to be and who do you trust right like to be and who do you trust right like that self-attribution creates a

that self-attribution creates a that self-attribution creates a uh it just creates it creates opacity in

uh it just creates it creates opacity in uh it just creates it creates opacity in the in the data curve right um and then

the in the data curve right um and then the in the data curve right um and then you start getting into incrementality

you start getting into incrementality you start getting into incrementality and and and these guys self attributed here these

these guys self attributed here these these guys self attributed here these guys self attributed here you're already guys self attributed here you're already guys self attributed here you're already seeing it right like a Facebook and seeing it right like a Facebook and seeing it right like a Facebook and Google and running those they already

Google and running those they already Google and running those they already self-attribute right

self-attribute right self-attribute right um so um so um so then that's one of the challenges that

then that's one of the challenges that then that's one of the challenges that we have when we work with operators do we have when we work with operators do we have when we work with operators do is okay where do you give the proper

is okay where do you give the proper is okay where do you give the proper attribution right because Facebook's

attribution right because Facebook's attribution right because Facebook's saying that they delivered it and saying that they delivered it and saying that they delivered it and Google's saying they deliver it and Google's saying they deliver it and Google's saying they deliver it and they're both right at the end of the day

they're both right at the end of the day they're both right at the end of the day that user probably did touch both of

that user probably did touch both of that user probably did touch both of those things so what does that user those things so what does that user those things so what does that user Journey look like and how do you get Journey look like and how do you get Journey look like and how do you get that attribution model down properly

that attribution model down properly that attribution model down properly um I think

um I think um I think or our opinion and our thesis on it to

or our opinion and our thesis on it to or our opinion and our thesis on it to this point has been

that type of attribution modeling and that type of attribution modeling and incrementality and those really sort of

incrementality and those really sort of incrementality and those really sort of marketing level 400 buzzwords really

marketing level 400 buzzwords really marketing level 400 buzzwords really don't start to become impactful until

don't start to become impactful until don't start to become impactful until you get the marketing 101 stuff done and

you get the marketing 101 stuff done and you get the marketing 101 stuff done and that's what we tell operators like hey that's what we tell operators like hey that's what we tell operators like hey there's a 30 40 50 efficiency increase

there's a 30 40 50 efficiency increase there's a 30 40 50 efficiency increase that you could have that you could have that you could have by just getting the foundational Basics

by just getting the foundational Basics by just getting the foundational Basics table stake stuff done like working off

table stake stuff done like working off table stake stuff done like working off of a just a pure last click like if you

of a just a pure last click like if you of a just a pure last click like if you can just get the last click attribution can just get the last click attribution can just get the last click attribution working properly

working properly working properly and do that at scale then you can start

and do that at scale then you can start and do that at scale then you can start to tackle these other more complex to tackle these other more complex to tackle these other more complex problems

problems problems um um um because if you don't have that data

because if you don't have that data because if you don't have that data Foundation to begin with then the

Foundation to begin with then the Foundation to begin with then the challenge is you're making decisions challenge is you're making decisions challenge is you're making decisions that are either

that are either that are either opaque or incorrect right because you're

opaque or incorrect right because you're opaque or incorrect right because you're you're trying to make very complex data

you're trying to make very complex data you're trying to make very complex data decisioning on decisioning on decisioning on how do I you know these self-attribution

how do I you know these self-attribution how do I you know these self-attribution plots these guys are self-attributing

plots these guys are self-attributing plots these guys are self-attributing um I need to make sense of who I

um I need to make sense of who I um I need to make sense of who I actually give that that attribution

actually give that that attribution actually give that that attribution credit to uh and now you're talking

credit to uh and now you're talking credit to uh and now you're talking about doing that at scale you're talking about doing that at scale you're talking about doing that at scale you're talking about doing that whereas you're spending

about doing that whereas you're spending about doing that whereas you're spending a thousand ten thousand a hundred a thousand ten thousand a hundred a thousand ten thousand a hundred thousand dollars a day thousand dollars a day thousand dollars a day like you're not gonna be able to do that

like you're not gonna be able to do that like you're not gonna be able to do that unless you have systems that in place unless you have systems that in place unless you have systems that in place that can that can start to do that and

that can that can start to do that and that can that can start to do that and automate it and you can create rules automate it and you can create rules automate it and you can create rules around it but you can't start to get an

around it but you can't start to get an around it but you can't start to get an understanding of what rules to even understanding of what rules to even understanding of what rules to even create around it until you understand

create around it until you understand create around it until you understand hey this is the basics of what we're

hey this is the basics of what we're hey this is the basics of what we're this is where we're spending money and this is where we're spending money and this is where we're spending money and that's what we're getting for it then

that's what we're getting for it then that's what we're getting for it then you can start to layer in that you can start to layer in that you can start to layer in that complexity because that complexity

complexity because that complexity complexity because that complexity layering in is it's incremental it's

layering in is it's incremental it's layering in is it's incremental it's marginal right it's it's it's two to

marginal right it's it's it's two to marginal right it's it's it's two to three percentage Point differences at

three percentage Point differences at three percentage Point differences at scale scale scale um but those two to three percentage um but those two to three percentage um but those two to three percentage points are are massive when they start

points are are massive when they start points are are massive when they start again massive at scale so

again massive at scale so again massive at scale so um I you know the feedback we always

um I you know the feedback we always um I you know the feedback we always give everyone is

give everyone is give everyone is guys there's 50 efficiency that you can

guys there's 50 efficiency that you can guys there's 50 efficiency that you can create just based on getting back to the

create just based on getting back to the create just based on getting back to the foundations and then let's start to

foundations and then let's start to foundations and then let's start to tackle those problems

tackle those problems tackle those problems in at a later time when two things are

in at a later time when two things are in at a later time when two things are happening number one you've got a better happening number one you've got a better happening number one you've got a better foundational you have a better data

foundational you have a better data foundational you have a better data Foundation to be making those decisions Foundation to be making those decisions Foundation to be making those decisions based off of but number two there's

based off of but number two there's based off of but number two there's still a lot of still a lot of still a lot of changes happening at the user level that

changes happening at the user level that changes happening at the user level that are going to affect

are going to affect are going to affect you can make that decision today in

you can make that decision today in you can make that decision today in terms of how you attribute that you know

terms of how you attribute that you know terms of how you attribute that you know who you're going to say okay well

who you're going to say okay well who you're going to say okay well Facebook's right Google's right whatever Facebook's right Google's right whatever Facebook's right Google's right whatever you can you can you can make that you can you can you can make that you can you can you can make that attribution model today but it's going

attribution model today but it's going attribution model today but it's going to change in the next three months in

to change in the next three months in to change in the next three months in the next six months of the next year the next six months of the next year the next six months of the next year based on okay how's when does Google

based on okay how's when does Google based on okay how's when does Google deprecate cookies right because that's

deprecate cookies right because that's deprecate cookies right because that's going to change that attribution window

going to change that attribution window going to change that attribution window when is our additional privacy change is

when is our additional privacy change is when is our additional privacy change is going to come into place from a consumer going to come into place from a consumer going to come into place from a consumer standpoint where you're now going to

standpoint where you're now going to standpoint where you're now going to have to self-attribute based on the fact

have to self-attribute based on the fact have to self-attribute based on the fact that you now know who that person is that you now know who that person is that you now know who that person is beyond an IP address or device ID it's

beyond an IP address or device ID it's beyond an IP address or device ID it's you have their email address and phone

you have their email address and phone you have their email address and phone number there's a different attribution number there's a different attribution number there's a different attribution model that you can create there so from

model that you can create there so from model that you can create there so from our perspective we always looked at well

our perspective we always looked at well our perspective we always looked at well that's good to be talking about that

that's good to be talking about that that's good to be talking about that stuff and I think we should be thinking

stuff and I think we should be thinking stuff and I think we should be thinking about it and you should be building the about it and you should be building the about it and you should be building the foundational basis to be able to do that

foundational basis to be able to do that foundational basis to be able to do that but there's still so much opportunity to

but there's still so much opportunity to but there's still so much opportunity to create in like massive we're talking

create in like massive we're talking create in like massive we're talking exponential improvements

exponential improvements exponential improvements that are much easier to implement than

that are much easier to implement than that are much easier to implement than okay we're going to now look at some

okay we're going to now look at some okay we're going to now look at some self-attribution self-attribution self-attribution uh you know self-attribution windows

uh you know self-attribution windows uh you know self-attribution windows from these particular Partners right and

from these particular Partners right and from these particular Partners right and that's the challenge too is none of that that's the challenge too is none of that that's the challenge too is none of that stuff's Universal it's like well I treat

stuff's Universal it's like well I treat stuff's Universal it's like well I treat this partner this way and then these this partner this way and then these this partner this way and then these these guys self-attribute a different these guys self-attribute a different these guys self-attribute a different way how do you how do you normalize that

way how do you how do you normalize that way how do you how do you normalize that right right right so yeah I think you'll start to see more

so yeah I think you'll start to see more so yeah I think you'll start to see more of that happening but of that happening but of that happening but we always say there's there's a lot we always say there's there's a lot we always say there's there's a lot there's a lot there's a lot there's a lot there's a lot more low-hanging fruit there's a lot more low-hanging fruit there's a lot more low-hanging fruit that will create massive impact

that will create massive impact that will create massive impact um if you just sort of know where to um if you just sort of know where to um if you just sort of know where to look look look I agree and uh last question is what do

I agree and uh last question is what do I agree and uh last question is what do you see of the future of affiliate you see of the future of affiliate you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business

marketing as it intersects with business marketing as it intersects with business intelligence

intelligence intelligence yeah I mean I think you're I think we're

yeah I mean I think you're I think we're yeah I mean I think you're I think we're living in real time I mean I think uh

living in real time I mean I think uh living in real time I mean I think uh more and more

more and more more and more Affiliates are are thinking like uh

they're thinking more and more like uh they're thinking more and more like uh public trade publicly traded companies

public trade publicly traded companies public trade publicly traded companies that are that are that are viewing every penny under a microscope

viewing every penny under a microscope viewing every penny under a microscope so I think the shift that we're seeing

so I think the shift that we're seeing so I think the shift that we're seeing is is twofold it's

most marketing digital marketing now is most marketing digital marketing now is being bought and sold programmatically

being bought and sold programmatically being bought and sold programmatically and that includes that that even

and that includes that that even and that includes that that even includes SEO right like how guys are

includes SEO right like how guys are includes SEO right like how guys are looking at their link back strategies looking at their link back strategies looking at their link back strategies how guys are looking at you know their

how guys are looking at you know their how guys are looking at you know their content deployment strategies

content deployment strategies content deployment strategies um you know you you look at what what

um you know you you look at what what um you know you you look at what what some of the AI is going to do in terms

some of the AI is going to do in terms some of the AI is going to do in terms of being able to compile content on the

of being able to compile content on the of being able to compile content on the Fly based on the user when they're Fly based on the user when they're Fly based on the user when they're coming in right

coming in right coming in right um You Look At You know we've seen this

um You Look At You know we've seen this um You Look At You know we've seen this technology we've built some of this technology we've built some of this technology we've built some of this technology actually with HTML5 now you

technology actually with HTML5 now you technology actually with HTML5 now you can compile you don't have to have

can compile you don't have to have can compile you don't have to have static banners you can actually compile

static banners you can actually compile static banners you can actually compile banners in the browser in real time

banners in the browser in real time banners in the browser in real time based on all the information that exists

based on all the information that exists based on all the information that exists right so now you're creative goes to a

right so now you're creative goes to a right so now you're creative goes to a database as opposed to uh a section you

database as opposed to uh a section you database as opposed to uh a section you know a a group of create a file of

know a a group of create a file of know a a group of create a file of creatives now you've got you just put

creatives now you've got you just put creatives now you've got you just put all the different elements of the all the different elements of the all the different elements of the creative in a database and then that creative in a database and then that creative in a database and then that database compiles the creative on the

database compiles the creative on the database compiles the creative on the fly when that user gets to the site and

fly when that user gets to the site and fly when that user gets to the site and then now you can be even more granular

then now you can be even more granular then now you can be even more granular with your optimization hey this call to

with your optimization hey this call to with your optimization hey this call to action with this Banner with this

action with this Banner with this action with this Banner with this headline now you can get very very

headline now you can get very very headline now you can get very very granular with your optimizations

granular with your optimizations granular with your optimizations um and so you don't have to rely on it

um and so you don't have to rely on it um and so you don't have to rely on it just it just speeds up the time to

just it just speeds up the time to just it just speeds up the time to efficiency so I think what you're going

efficiency so I think what you're going efficiency so I think what you're going to see and again we're already living to see and again we're already living to see and again we're already living through this is as a much more

through this is as a much more through this is as a much more programmatic approach to affiliate and

programmatic approach to affiliate and programmatic approach to affiliate and Performance Marketing I mean Performance

Performance Marketing I mean Performance Performance Marketing I mean Performance Marketing says it in the name it's Marketing says it in the name it's Marketing says it in the name it's already it's performance market right

already it's performance market right already it's performance market right you're looking at it from a very you're looking at it from a very you're looking at it from a very different perspective but I think you're

different perspective but I think you're different perspective but I think you're just going to see a lot more granularity

just going to see a lot more granularity just going to see a lot more granularity around around around what's working what's not working and

what's working what's not working and what's working what's not working and then I go back to what we and this shift

then I go back to what we and this shift then I go back to what we and this shift is happening at every industry not just

is happening at every industry not just is happening at every industry not just ours ours ours the move from

the move from the move from a transactional based partnership or

a transactional based partnership or a transactional based partnership or relationship where it's you uh you know

relationship where it's you uh you know relationship where it's you uh you know cost per action CPA cost per action

cost per action CPA cost per action cost per action CPA cost per action right I think these relations are going

right I think these relations are going right I think these relations are going to move to a much more Dynamic uh

to move to a much more Dynamic uh to move to a much more Dynamic uh commercial Arrangement where there's

commercial Arrangement where there's commercial Arrangement where there's some sort of CPA component then there's

some sort of CPA component then there's some sort of CPA component then there's some sort of Downstream again not

some sort of Downstream again not some sort of Downstream again not necessarily rep share but some other necessarily rep share but some other necessarily rep share but some other mechanism that's Downstream that is that

mechanism that's Downstream that is that mechanism that's Downstream that is that creates that alignment between the creates that alignment between the creates that alignment between the Partnerships Partnerships Partnerships um and then I think you're going to see um and then I think you're going to see um and then I think you're going to see more dynamicism around that

more dynamicism around that more dynamicism around that um you know we're moving away from hey

um you know we're moving away from hey um you know we're moving away from hey I'm going to pay you X for all your

I'm going to pay you X for all your I'm going to pay you X for all your traffic traffic traffic uh I we're getting into this you know

uh I we're getting into this you know uh I we're getting into this you know with smart contracts and the with smart contracts and the with smart contracts and the Technologies now where I can create an

Technologies now where I can create an Technologies now where I can create an agreement with a commercial agree with a

agreement with a commercial agree with a agreement with a commercial agree with a partner where it says right I'm gonna

partner where it says right I'm gonna partner where it says right I'm gonna pay you pay you pay you um this much for a New Jersey iOS better

um this much for a New Jersey iOS better um this much for a New Jersey iOS better but I'm gonna pay you this much for a

but I'm gonna pay you this much for a but I'm gonna pay you this much for a Pennsylvania Air Android better and I'm

Pennsylvania Air Android better and I'm Pennsylvania Air Android better and I'm gonna pay you this much for an Arizona

gonna pay you this much for an Arizona gonna pay you this much for an Arizona web-based better right

web-based better right web-based better right um I think the the dynamic

um I think the the dynamic um I think the the dynamic the dynamic nature of the commercial

the dynamic nature of the commercial the dynamic nature of the commercial Arrangement between performance partners

Arrangement between performance partners Arrangement between performance partners and The Operators are going to start to

and The Operators are going to start to and The Operators are going to start to change to key in on what is the value of

change to key in on what is the value of change to key in on what is the value of the player you're actually delivering me the player you're actually delivering me the player you're actually delivering me right now

right now right now um and I think that's that's where the

um and I think that's that's where the um and I think that's that's where the that's the future and again it goes back

that's the future and again it goes back that's the future and again it goes back to to to how do we get more efficient how do we

how do we get more efficient how do we how do we get more efficient how do we create a more closely aligned

create a more closely aligned create a more closely aligned partnership between

partnership between partnership between all the stakeholders in that funnel and

all the stakeholders in that funnel and all the stakeholders in that funnel and then how do we make sure that everyone's

then how do we make sure that everyone's then how do we make sure that everyone's winning at the end of the day this is winning at the end of the day this is winning at the end of the day this is entertainment industry it needs to be

entertainment industry it needs to be entertainment industry it needs to be entertaining how do we make sure that

entertaining how do we make sure that entertaining how do we make sure that everyone in that that ecosystem is is

everyone in that that ecosystem is is everyone in that that ecosystem is is winning and enjoying themselves

winning and enjoying themselves winning and enjoying themselves and uh can you give us your elevator

and uh can you give us your elevator and uh can you give us your elevator pitch for intolytics and let everyone

pitch for intolytics and let everyone pitch for intolytics and let everyone know how can they get a hold of you

know how can they get a hold of you know how can they get a hold of you yeah so analytics we solve the very

yeah so analytics we solve the very yeah so analytics we solve the very complex problem of customer acquisition

complex problem of customer acquisition complex problem of customer acquisition to lifetime value

to lifetime value to lifetime value um across channels across device types

um across channels across device types um across channels across device types across verticals across verticals across verticals um at the end of the day our job is to

um at the end of the day our job is to um at the end of the day our job is to help operators be more efficient with

help operators be more efficient with help operators be more efficient with the capital they're deploying to acquire the capital they're deploying to acquire the capital they're deploying to acquire customers and to help the marketing

customers and to help the marketing customers and to help the marketing Partners in that ecosystem be as

Partners in that ecosystem be as Partners in that ecosystem be as efficient as possible and create maximum

efficient as possible and create maximum efficient as possible and create maximum yield for all the stakeholders in that

yield for all the stakeholders in that yield for all the stakeholders in that funnel funnel funnel um how can they get a hold of me uh my

um how can they get a hold of me uh my um how can they get a hold of me uh my email is Alan a-l-a-n intolytics.com you

email is Alan a-l-a-n intolytics.com you email is Alan a-l-a-n intolytics.com you can go to the website

can go to the website can go to the website um we try to show up at all the shows we

um we try to show up at all the shows we um we try to show up at all the shows we try to be everywhere we can be we're on

try to be everywhere we can be we're on try to be everywhere we can be we're on LinkedIn you know find us you should be

LinkedIn you know find us you should be LinkedIn you know find us you should be able to find us yeah we'll include all

able to find us yeah we'll include all able to find us yeah we'll include all those links in the show notes as well those links in the show notes as well those links in the show notes as well yeah Alan uh thank you so much for doing

yeah Alan uh thank you so much for doing yeah Alan uh thank you so much for doing this I think we could definitely have a this I think we could definitely have a this I think we could definitely have a couple more chats I know every time we

couple more chats I know every time we couple more chats I know every time we chat in person uh the tangents and the

chat in person uh the tangents and the chat in person uh the tangents and the discussions get more interesting and

discussions get more interesting and discussions get more interesting and you're right we are living this future

you're right we are living this future you're right we are living this future of affiliate marketing uh right now and

of affiliate marketing uh right now and of affiliate marketing uh right now and things are getting exciting and changing

things are getting exciting and changing things are getting exciting and changing yeah John thank you man love what you're

yeah John thank you man love what you're yeah John thank you man love what you're doing uh I think this is this is great

doing uh I think this is this is great doing uh I think this is this is great for the industry and I really appreciate for the industry and I really appreciate for the industry and I really appreciate you having me on

you having me on you having me on thank you for tuning in to the affiliate

thank you for tuning in to the affiliate thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to

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