RevOps in affiliate marketing with Ben Austen

sales people are getting paid loads of sales people are getting paid loads of money Finance know how much money

money Finance know how much money money Finance know how much money they're getting paid and there's you

they're getting paid and there's you they're getting paid and there's you know celebrations going on and your

know celebrations going on and your know celebrations going on and your marketing marketing marketing team especially sort of the more junior

team especially sort of the more junior team especially sort of the more junior members your marketing team maybe CS

members your marketing team maybe CS members your marketing team maybe CS maybe finance and bi that there's

maybe finance and bi that there's maybe finance and bi that there's nothing that comes through it doesn't

nothing that comes through it doesn't nothing that comes through it doesn't make a difference to them and and that

make a difference to them and and that make a difference to them and and that can really frustrate people I'm John

can really frustrate people I'm John can really frustrate people I'm John wght and you're listening to affiliate

wght and you're listening to affiliate wght and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and

bi the business intelligence and bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to

affiliate marketing podcast brought to affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by you by you by sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast

sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Ben Austin

today we're chatting with Ben Austin today we're chatting with Ben Austin he's the director of Revenue operations

he's the director of Revenue operations he's the director of Revenue operations at fine. Co he's experienced in running

at fine. Co he's experienced in running at fine. Co he's experienced in running paid search and paid social for search a

paid search and paid social for search a paid search and paid social for search a agency he co-founded and he's the head

agency he co-founded and he's the head agency he co-founded and he's the head of Marketing sales director's roles or

of Marketing sales director's roles or of Marketing sales director's roles or actually no he was doing those roles and

actually no he was doing those roles and actually no he was doing those roles and um he's got a lot of experience on

um he's got a lot of experience on um he's got a lot of experience on investment and M m&a side so uh Ben

investment and M m&a side so uh Ben investment and M m&a side so uh Ben happy to have you on the show thank you

happy to have you on the show thank you happy to have you on the show thank you for having me that's I think that's a

for having me that's I think that's a for having me that's I think that's a lovely intro and I'm sure people who lovely intro and I'm sure people who lovely intro and I'm sure people who know me well would be questioning know me well would be questioning know me well would be questioning whether I know as much about those

whether I know as much about those whether I know as much about those things as you're you're giving me U

things as you're you're giving me U things as you're you're giving me U kudos for well we've had a chance to

kudos for well we've had a chance to kudos for well we've had a chance to chat uh before so I I know you've got

chat uh before so I I know you've got chat uh before so I I know you've got lots of experience so I'm happy to dig

lots of experience so I'm happy to dig lots of experience so I'm happy to dig into questions especially related to the

into questions especially related to the into questions especially related to the finance side of the business which finance side of the business which finance side of the business which sounds obvious but I actually think it's

sounds obvious but I actually think it's sounds obvious but I actually think it's a a lacking topic and things that um

a a lacking topic and things that um a a lacking topic and things that um maybe people kind of lack the education

maybe people kind of lack the education maybe people kind of lack the education on in our industry and I just want to on in our industry and I just want to on in our industry and I just want to get your quick take on

get your quick take on get your quick take on that yeah sure so well it's actually a

that yeah sure so well it's actually a that yeah sure so well it's actually a pass it's a bit of a passion of mine um

pass it's a bit of a passion of mine um pass it's a bit of a passion of mine um which sounds odd um but I I actually did

which sounds odd um but I I actually did which sounds odd um but I I actually did another podcast recently and I was asked

another podcast recently and I was asked another podcast recently and I was asked for an unpopular opinion in the world of

for an unpopular opinion in the world of for an unpopular opinion in the world of revols um and my reply was the more time

revols um and my reply was the more time revols um and my reply was the more time you spend with Finance the the more

you spend with Finance the the more you spend with Finance the the more you'll succeed um and I suppose if I

you'll succeed um and I suppose if I you'll succeed um and I suppose if I just sort of delal back and sort of

just sort of delal back and sort of just sort of delal back and sort of Define revops because it might be

Define revops because it might be Define revops because it might be slightly new to something people or it

slightly new to something people or it slightly new to something people or it means different things in different

means different things in different means different things in different businesses so for

businesses so for businesses so for me I I think a simple way of describing

me I I think a simple way of describing me I I think a simple way of describing rops rops is it's the sort of the

rops rops is it's the sort of the rops rops is it's the sort of the co-pilot to the cro is a very sort of

co-pilot to the cro is a very sort of co-pilot to the cro is a very sort of pity way of doing that but to expand on

pity way of doing that but to expand on pity way of doing that but to expand on that you've got you know revops is there

that you've got you know revops is there that you've got you know revops is there to integrate and align the commercial of

to integrate and align the commercial of to integrate and align the commercial of go to market teams so Marketing sales

go to market teams so Marketing sales go to market teams so Marketing sales customer success underneath that you've

customer success underneath that you've customer success underneath that you've got a layer of finance and bi and that

got a layer of finance and bi and that got a layer of finance and bi and that that scale like to deliver scale Revenue

that scale like to deliver scale Revenue that scale like to deliver scale Revenue growth that's that's what rev does um

growth that's that's what rev does um growth that's that's what rev does um and it sort of takes a Swiss approach it

and it sort of takes a Swiss approach it and it sort of takes a Swiss approach it should sort of play a neutral role

should sort of play a neutral role should sort of play a neutral role across go to market functions and join

across go to market functions and join across go to market functions and join the doc right um and

the doc right um and the doc right um and historically I think the the sort of the

historically I think the the sort of the historically I think the the sort of the best in commer places for them to report

best in commer places for them to report best in commer places for them to report into the cro but actually the discussion

into the cro but actually the discussion into the cro but actually the discussion at the moment is whether they should at the moment is whether they should at the moment is whether they should report into a CFO and I think there's

report into a CFO and I think there's report into a CFO and I think there's sort of there's like pluses and min es

sort of there's like pluses and min es sort of there's like pluses and min es with that um but the the interesting

with that um but the the interesting with that um but the the interesting thing about the the finance is I think

thing about the the finance is I think thing about the the finance is I think that revops often comes out of the sales

that revops often comes out of the sales that revops often comes out of the sales Ops World I think that's where it

Ops World I think that's where it Ops World I think that's where it started and then you've got less

started and then you've got less started and then you've got less marketing Ops people and you got even

marketing Ops people and you got even marketing Ops people and you got even less customer success Ops people just

less customer success Ops people just less customer success Ops people just because sales is sales and it's shiny I

because sales is sales and it's shiny I because sales is sales and it's shiny I think there's even less people who have

think there's even less people who have think there's even less people who have the finance the finance the finance Bank um and you know a couple things I

Bank um and you know a couple things I Bank um and you know a couple things I was thinking about before we spoke about

was thinking about before we spoke about was thinking about before we spoke about this is you know in a business I think

this is you know in a business I think this is you know in a business I think it's like 90% of businesses fail because

it's like 90% of businesses fail because it's like 90% of businesses fail because of cash flow like cash is King right if

of cash flow like cash is King right if of cash flow like cash is King right if you've never spoken to a CFO before and

you've never spoken to a CFO before and you've never spoken to a CFO before and you want to get in the good graces just you want to get in the good graces just you want to get in the good graces just sort of wander up and start saying well

sort of wander up and start saying well sort of wander up and start saying well cash flows important to you know that's

cash flows important to you know that's cash flows important to you know that's we've got we got to think about that um

we've got we got to think about that um we've got we got to think about that um but the you know to give some real life

but the you know to give some real life but the you know to give some real life examples like if you're in marketing

examples like if you're in marketing examples like if you're in marketing marketing want to spend as much of their marketing want to spend as much of their marketing want to spend as much of their budget in age1 as

budget in age1 as budget in age1 as possible obviously you've got

possible obviously you've got possible obviously you've got seasonality and things but if you get seasonality and things but if you get seasonality and things but if you get get rid of your money your spend the

get rid of your money your spend the get rid of your money your spend the company can't take it off your um but

company can't take it off your um but company can't take it off your um but actually uh you need to understand what

actually uh you need to understand what actually uh you need to understand what that does to cash flow or could do to

that does to cash flow or could do to that does to cash flow or could do to cash flow and have that conversation up

cash flow and have that conversation up cash flow and have that conversation up front or if sales hit a number but the

front or if sales hit a number but the front or if sales hit a number but the mix is off and actually this is

mix is off and actually this is mix is off and actually this is something I saw happen quite often is

something I saw happen quite often is something I saw happen quite often is sales hit a number so everyone's happy

sales hit a number so everyone's happy sales hit a number so everyone's happy but the mixes of understand what that

but the mixes of understand what that but the mixes of understand what that does to say Revenue

does to say Revenue does to say Revenue recognition and therefore the budget

recognition and therefore the budget recognition and therefore the budget next year here um and the last one that

next year here um and the last one that next year here um and the last one that I think is always a rich vein is

I think is always a rich vein is I think is always a rich vein is discounting so it comes off the purely

discounting so it comes off the purely discounting so it comes off the purely off the bottom line so from like a CFO

off the bottom line so from like a CFO off the bottom line so from like a CFO or anyone in finance point of view

or anyone in finance point of view or anyone in finance point of view discounting is just awful because it

discounting is just awful because it discounting is just awful because it just hits just hits just hits margin um and there needs to be a clear

margin um and there needs to be a clear margin um and there needs to be a clear reason and sort of rules around that um

reason and sort of rules around that um reason and sort of rules around that um yeah so I think that's like lots of

yeah so I think that's like lots of yeah so I think that's like lots of things I could talk about um but I think

things I could talk about um but I think things I could talk about um but I think it's it's key I'm definitely going to

it's it's key I'm definitely going to it's it's key I'm definitely going to ask a bunch more questions because I

ask a bunch more questions because I ask a bunch more questions because I think it's I think it's a topic like

think it's I think it's a topic like think it's I think it's a topic like what you just said there about Revenue

what you just said there about Revenue what you just said there about Revenue plus bi I mean when I was thinking about

plus bi I mean when I was thinking about plus bi I mean when I was thinking about what is business intelligence today and

what is business intelligence today and what is business intelligence today and how do people get these skills and where

how do people get these skills and where how do people get these skills and where does it like how does does it get

does it like how does does it get does it like how does does it get applied to any industry and I think a

applied to any industry and I think a applied to any industry and I think a lot of it always comes down to finance

lot of it always comes down to finance lot of it always comes down to finance in some way and then it's like how do

in some way and then it's like how do in some way and then it's like how do these two skills kind of come together

these two skills kind of come together these two skills kind of come together and I think it's kind of like I don't

and I think it's kind of like I don't and I think it's kind of like I don't want to say it's a lost start I just want to say it's a lost start I just want to say it's a lost start I just think it's a lost on a lot of businesses

think it's a lost on a lot of businesses think it's a lost on a lot of businesses and like you said when all these

and like you said when all these and like you said when all these companies are constantly going out of

companies are constantly going out of companies are constantly going out of business it's it really comes down to

business it's it really comes down to business it's it really comes down to all these hard questions that people

all these hard questions that people all these hard questions that people don't really want to work together as a

don't really want to work together as a don't really want to work together as a team like sales and marketing kind of

team like sales and marketing kind of team like sales and marketing kind of fighting each fighting each fighting each other yeah the the the classic finger

other yeah the the the classic finger other yeah the the the classic finger point between sales and marketing of you

point between sales and marketing of you point between sales and marketing of you know lead the rubbish sales people can't

know lead the rubbish sales people can't know lead the rubbish sales people can't be bothered to Bone the leads is sort of

be bothered to Bone the leads is sort of be bothered to Bone the leads is sort of an endless cycle um but I think if you

an endless cycle um but I think if you an endless cycle um but I think if you can layer over or at least understand

can layer over or at least understand can layer over or at least understand the finance layer the insights that you

the finance layer the insights that you the finance layer the insights that you can give especially as you know Revol

can give especially as you know Revol can give especially as you know Revol sits in that that that more Central role

sits in that that that more Central role sits in that that that more Central role that Swiss role so to speak the insights

that Swiss role so to speak the insights that Swiss role so to speak the insights that you can give a much richer and I

that you can give a much richer and I that you can give a much richer and I think that's where you move from a sort think that's where you move from a sort think that's where you move from a sort of a tactical to a strategic level

of a tactical to a strategic level of a tactical to a strategic level because some of the things that we just

because some of the things that we just because some of the things that we just talked about is you know just touched on

talked about is you know just touched on talked about is you know just touched on and happy to go into detail on them if

and happy to go into detail on them if and happy to go into detail on them if if you w't is you know these are things

if you w't is you know these are things if you w't is you know these are things that the board are interested in or the

that the board are interested in or the that the board are interested in or the investors are or they're you know investors are or they're you know investors are or they're you know they're trying to fund raise like the

they're trying to fund raise like the they're trying to fund raise like the these are the questions which actually

these are the questions which actually these are the questions which actually matter uh and obviously the sales number

matter uh and obviously the sales number matter uh and obviously the sales number does matter and the market budget does

does matter and the market budget does does matter and the market budget does matter but it's not always the be all R

matter but it's not always the be all R matter but it's not always the be all R Endor yeah and I think before I dive

Endor yeah and I think before I dive Endor yeah and I think before I dive into the first question I know from our

into the first question I know from our into the first question I know from our experience of uh you know raising

experience of uh you know raising experience of uh you know raising investment it's like we started to meet

investment it's like we started to meet investment it's like we started to meet people more that were like you that were

people more that were like you that were people more that were like you that were asking us these tough questions and I

asking us these tough questions and I asking us these tough questions and I think uh for us it was a good exercise

think uh for us it was a good exercise think uh for us it was a good exercise because it really said well where are we

because it really said well where are we because it really said well where are we weak you know we're weak in the actual

weak you know we're weak in the actual weak you know we're weak in the actual Finance part of having to explain the

Finance part of having to explain the Finance part of having to explain the numbers and show Trends and and like you

numbers and show Trends and and like you numbers and show Trends and and like you said have a proper strategy to go what

said have a proper strategy to go what said have a proper strategy to go what are we going to do to fix this how are are we going to do to fix this how are are we going to do to fix this how are we going to make things better and it

we going to make things better and it we going to make things better and it sounds maybe to some people sounds

sounds maybe to some people sounds sounds maybe to some people sounds trivial but unless you have that person

trivial but unless you have that person trivial but unless you have that person on your team or the other person on the

on your team or the other person on the on your team or the other person on the other side of the fence throwing these

other side of the fence throwing these other side of the fence throwing these tough questions at you it's uh you're

tough questions at you it's uh you're tough questions at you it's uh you're able to just not do

able to just not do able to just not do that

that that exactly so I was listening to a recent

exactly so I was listening to a recent exactly so I was listening to a recent uh episode of the revenue vitals podcast

uh episode of the revenue vitals podcast uh episode of the revenue vitals podcast with Chris Walker I've been mentioning

with Chris Walker I've been mentioning with Chris Walker I've been mentioning this guy quite a bit uh he's one of my

this guy quite a bit uh he's one of my this guy quite a bit uh he's one of my favorite podcasts um he's a B2B sales

favorite podcasts um he's a B2B sales favorite podcasts um he's a B2B sales and marketing Pro and he said that one

and marketing Pro and he said that one and marketing Pro and he said that one major problem for a lot of B2B marketers

major problem for a lot of B2B marketers major problem for a lot of B2B marketers and salespeople is that they don't have

and salespeople is that they don't have and salespeople is that they don't have a financial Acumen that they they don't

a financial Acumen that they they don't a financial Acumen that they they don't understand how their work can have a understand how their work can have a understand how their work can have a profound impact on the sales team

profound impact on the sales team profound impact on the sales team especially the marketers so let's dive

especially the marketers so let's dive especially the marketers so let's dive into like what are your thoughts on

into like what are your thoughts on into like what are your thoughts on that yeah I I think it's pretty bang on

that yeah I I think it's pretty bang on that yeah I I think it's pretty bang on from Chris um and I think part of that

from Chris um and I think part of that from Chris um and I think part of that is sort of whether it's organizational

is sort of whether it's organizational is sort of whether it's organizational design or it's just um

design or it's just um design or it's just um how people tend to run goto Market teams

how people tend to run goto Market teams how people tend to run goto Market teams or or that commercial team so I think I

or or that commercial team so I think I or or that commercial team so I think I think a lot of it is having the right

think a lot of it is having the right think a lot of it is having the right people in the right room consistently so

people in the right room consistently so people in the right room consistently so what what I tend to observe with with

what what I tend to observe with with what what I tend to observe with with Finance is that they're either you know

Finance is that they're either you know Finance is that they're either you know at the back of the room in the old days

at the back of the room in the old days at the back of the room in the old days or on a

or on a or on a call camera might be off they don't have

call camera might be off they don't have call camera might be off they don't have a real defined role in in sessions and

a real defined role in in sessions and a real defined role in in sessions and they're just sort of there and therefore

they're just sort of there and therefore they're just sort of there and therefore for them to make to join the

for them to make to join the for them to make to join the dots between between sort of you know

dots between between sort of you know dots between between sort of you know the commercial teams and finance and the

the commercial teams and finance and the the commercial teams and finance and the flip doesn't happen and I I think it's

flip doesn't happen and I I think it's flip doesn't happen and I I think it's about leadership working really hard to

about leadership working really hard to about leadership working really hard to like Empower people both ways to to make

like Empower people both ways to to make like Empower people both ways to to make it

it it work or or so you know traditionally you

work or or so you know traditionally you work or or so you know traditionally you get your serious types of sort of you

get your serious types of sort of you get your serious types of sort of you know Finance can be a bit boring that

know Finance can be a bit boring that know Finance can be a bit boring that you know or they can be the people you know or they can be the people you know or they can be the people constantly saying no um and again I

constantly saying no um and again I constantly saying no um and again I think it's up to sort of leadership to

think it's up to sort of leadership to think it's up to sort of leadership to shape it as a it's our Target it's like

shape it as a it's our Target it's like shape it as a it's our Target it's like this business Target it's not sales as

this business Target it's not sales as this business Target it's not sales as Target it's you know all of that as I

Target it's you know all of that as I Target it's you know all of that as I said Marketing sales Cs and then finance

said Marketing sales Cs and then finance said Marketing sales Cs and then finance and bi it's everyone's Target I mean it

and bi it's everyone's Target I mean it and bi it's everyone's Target I mean it should be the whole company's Target but

should be the whole company's Target but should be the whole company's Target but you know if you're starting to build you know if you're starting to build you know if you're starting to build that culture um and once people start to

that culture um and once people start to that culture um and once people start to feel um that they are part of that and

feel um that they are part of that and feel um that they are part of that and actually you know you can go as far as actually you know you can go as far as actually you know you can go as far as renumeration right Finance people don't

renumeration right Finance people don't renumeration right Finance people don't get paid they don't have any skin in the

get paid they don't have any skin in the get paid they don't have any skin in the game so you know there's lots of I think

game so you know there's lots of I think game so you know there's lots of I think there's lots of different ways that you there's lots of different ways that you there's lots of different ways that you can make it happen but it it it starts

can make it happen but it it it starts can make it happen but it it it starts with the leadership yeah it's what you

with the leadership yeah it's what you with the leadership yeah it's what you said there was actually one of the the

said there was actually one of the the said there was actually one of the the questions that I wanted to dig into

questions that I wanted to dig into questions that I wanted to dig into which is typically sales are the ones

which is typically sales are the ones which is typically sales are the ones that are rewarded with bonuses and

that are rewarded with bonuses and that are rewarded with bonuses and performances but you when you have a

performances but you when you have a performances but you when you have a marketing team that can really have a

marketing team that can really have a marketing team that can really have a profound impact on not just sales but

profound impact on not just sales but profound impact on not just sales but the conversion rate it's where's their

the conversion rate it's where's their the conversion rate it's where's their reward or what about the product people

reward or what about the product people reward or what about the product people that built an amazing product that sells

that built an amazing product that sells that built an amazing product that sells itself where maybe you don't always need

itself where maybe you don't always need itself where maybe you don't always need as much of a sales team you know it's uh

as much of a sales team you know it's uh as much of a sales team you know it's uh I think uh I think you're spoton for

I think uh I think you're spoton for I think uh I think you're spoton for this uh revenue and bonus alignment just

this uh revenue and bonus alignment just this uh revenue and bonus alignment just being off and it's it's like the way

being off and it's it's like the way being off and it's it's like the way it's always been done and no one's it's always been done and no one's it's always been done and no one's changing changing changing it yeah and so I always say to my bosses

it yeah and so I always say to my bosses it yeah and so I always say to my bosses I want to get paid well I'd love to get

I want to get paid well I'd love to get I want to get paid well I'd love to get paid how much you get paid but I want to paid how much you get paid but I want to paid how much you get paid but I want to get paid like how you get paid right so

get paid like how you get paid right so get paid like how you get paid right so if the bonus is based on you know ebit

if the bonus is based on you know ebit if the bonus is based on you know ebit or whatever it is then that that's what

or whatever it is then that that's what or whatever it is then that that's what I want because then we're aligned right

I want because then we're aligned right I want because then we're aligned right and I think if you can do that across

and I think if you can do that across and I think if you can do that across those those teams and you know it it

those those teams and you know it it those those teams and you know it it sounds small but you have a big month

sounds small but you have a big month sounds small but you have a big month sorry a big quarter you hit your target

sorry a big quarter you hit your target sorry a big quarter you hit your target or you go past your target s people are

or you go past your target s people are or you go past your target s people are getting paid a loads of money Finance

getting paid a loads of money Finance getting paid a loads of money Finance know how much money they're getting paid

know how much money they're getting paid know how much money they're getting paid and there's you know celebrations going

and there's you know celebrations going and there's you know celebrations going on and your marketing

on and your marketing on and your marketing team especially sort of the more junior

team especially sort of the more junior team especially sort of the more junior members your marketing team maybe CS

members your marketing team maybe CS members your marketing team maybe CS Maybe Maybe Maybe finance and bi that there's nothing that

finance and bi that there's nothing that finance and bi that there's nothing that comes through it doesn't make a comes through it doesn't make a comes through it doesn't make a difference to them and and that can

difference to them and and that can difference to them and and that can really frustrate people okay so you're

really frustrate people okay so you're really frustrate people okay so you're you're fairly new to fine. co and you're

you're fairly new to fine. co and you're you're fairly new to fine. co and you're joining basically a new industry where

joining basically a new industry where joining basically a new industry where some of it's ey gaming and I wanted to

some of it's ey gaming and I wanted to some of it's ey gaming and I wanted to ask like when you were joining did you

ask like when you were joining did you ask like when you were joining did you have a look at the landscape to say okay

have a look at the landscape to say okay have a look at the landscape to say okay we've got Affiliates over here we've got

we've got Affiliates over here we've got we've got Affiliates over here we've got a lot of different B2B suppliers and

a lot of different B2B suppliers and a lot of different B2B suppliers and then we have the oper ations which is

then we have the oper ations which is then we have the oper ations which is affiliate programs and affiliate affiliate programs and affiliate affiliate programs and affiliate managers did you look through the the

managers did you look through the the managers did you look through the the job landscape and do you think that for

job landscape and do you think that for job landscape and do you think that for the role that you have

the role that you have the role that you have with.co do you think that there's

with.co do you think that there's with.co do you think that there's there's really not a lot of these jobs there's really not a lot of these jobs there's really not a lot of these jobs or there should be more of them like

or there should be more of them like or there should be more of them like there's tons of sales people tons of

there's tons of sales people tons of there's tons of sales people tons of commercial people but then I just think

commercial people but then I just think commercial people but then I just think that's that's as high a level as it

that's that's as high a level as it that's that's as high a level as it gets um I would say well it's been an

gets um I would say well it's been an gets um I would say well it's been an interesting job market the last sort of

interesting job market the last sort of interesting job market the last sort of year and year or so so it's definitely

year and year or so so it's definitely year and year or so so it's definitely been just slower AC like AC Coss board

been just slower AC like AC Coss board been just slower AC like AC Coss board um I I think that

um I I think that um I I think that the especially in the

the especially in the the especially in the US

US US Revol um as a

Revol um as a Revol um as a um as a

um as a um as a discipline the stly get run around is a

discipline the stly get run around is a discipline the stly get run around is a sort of the fastest growing or one of sort of the fastest growing or one of sort of the fastest growing or one of the fastest growing roles um especially

the fastest growing roles um especially the fastest growing roles um especially at the USU in the US and I'm based in

at the USU in the US and I'm based in at the USU in the US and I'm based in the UK um and the UK sort of follows

the UK um and the UK sort of follows the UK um and the UK sort of follows behind that and and you know I would say

behind that and and you know I would say behind that and and you know I would say you know generally you know the world

you know generally you know the world you know generally you know the world does

does does um I think what's happened is that

um I think what's happened is that um I think what's happened is that um especially the the VC or the PE

um especially the the VC or the PE um especially the the VC or the PE houses have realized that they need

houses have realized that they need houses have realized that they need people to join the dots and um and that

people to join the dots and um and that people to join the dots and um and that they there's value in this right if you

they there's value in this right if you they there's value in this right if you can create this the lead to C Journey

can create this the lead to C Journey can create this the lead to C Journey from the earliest point that somebody

from the earliest point that somebody from the earliest point that somebody ever um knows about you or your products

ever um knows about you or your products ever um knows about you or your products or your Brands all the way through to

or your Brands all the way through to or your Brands all the way through to the money hitting your account okay with

the money hitting your account okay with the money hitting your account okay with Finance um having someone join those

Finance um having someone join those Finance um having someone join those dots is is really important and it works

dots is is really important and it works dots is is really important and it works and so once the sort of the the money

and so once the sort of the the money and so once the sort of the the money people basically start to realize that

people basically start to realize that people basically start to realize that then that becomes a little bit more of a then that becomes a little bit more of a then that becomes a little bit more of a cookie cutter that template right so I

cookie cutter that template right so I cookie cutter that template right so I don't quite know when it happened but don't quite know when it happened but don't quite know when it happened but when sort of you know customer success

when sort of you know customer success when sort of you know customer success and account management became like the

and account management became like the and account management became like the way of doing things whereas before right

way of doing things whereas before right way of doing things whereas before right you just have just sales people and they

you just have just sales people and they you just have just sales people and they sort of did everything um but I think

sort of did everything um but I think sort of did everything um but I think that was uh

that was uh that was uh I think now people would say it's I think now people would say it's I think now people would say it's absolutely mad for a salesperson to sell

absolutely mad for a salesperson to sell absolutely mad for a salesperson to sell and to manage the account because it's

and to manage the account because it's and to manage the account because it's just a very different like brain

just a very different like brain just a very different like brain shape um and I think that's that's sort

shape um and I think that's that's sort shape um and I think that's that's sort of happening on this joining the dots

of happening on this joining the dots of happening on this joining the dots side of things because you're saying

side of things because you're saying side of things because you're saying joining the dots and I'm just thinking

joining the dots and I'm just thinking joining the dots and I'm just thinking in my head that we we have this weird

in my head that we we have this weird in my head that we we have this weird problem not just in affiliate marketing

problem not just in affiliate marketing problem not just in affiliate marketing but in sales where there's always a

but in sales where there's always a but in sales where there's always a there's not always a pure attribution of

there's not always a pure attribution of there's not always a pure attribution of where not only where did the sale come

where not only where did the sale come where not only where did the sale come from but what is the value of the sale

from but what is the value of the sale from but what is the value of the sale and it kind of goes back to the and it kind of goes back to the and it kind of goes back to the marketing people the product people and

marketing people the product people and marketing people the product people and I'm just wondering if you think uh

I'm just wondering if you think uh I'm just wondering if you think uh attribution is always the problem that

attribution is always the problem that attribution is always the problem that everyone wants to solve they're like everyone wants to solve they're like everyone wants to solve they're like look we have all these amazing tools we

look we have all these amazing tools we look we have all these amazing tools we have the best crms but I think there's

have the best crms but I think there's have the best crms but I think there's certain things that you just can't touch

certain things that you just can't touch certain things that you just can't touch like uh like the product like it's hard

like uh like the product like it's hard like uh like the product like it's hard to really understand how it leads to

to really understand how it leads to to really understand how it leads to like the end game which is revenue and I

like the end game which is revenue and I like the end game which is revenue and I think with what you're doing you start

think with what you're doing you start think with what you're doing you start at the top and then you work your way

at the top and then you work your way at the top and then you work your way down and I think everyone's doing the

down and I think everyone's doing the down and I think everyone's doing the opposite

opposite opposite um well yeah I think you got to attack

um well yeah I think you got to attack um well yeah I think you got to attack it from both sides to some extent uh I

it from both sides to some extent uh I it from both sides to some extent uh I think that I would call myself a

think that I would call myself a think that I would call myself a pragmatic pragmatic Optimist and so

pragmatic pragmatic Optimist and so pragmatic pragmatic Optimist and so there are uh elements of affiliate I.E

there are uh elements of affiliate I.E there are uh elements of affiliate I.E the affiliate partner has a bit of a the affiliate partner has a bit of a the affiliate partner has a bit of a black box right and I'm I'm not going to

black box right and I'm I'm not going to black box right and I'm I'm not going to be able to change that right that that

be able to change that right that that be able to change that right that that is a sort of a know known that we need

is a sort of a know known that we need is a sort of a know known that we need to work within and um I think with a bit

to work within and um I think with a bit to work within and um I think with a bit of pragmatism and some smart br

of pragmatism and some smart br of pragmatism and some smart br is that you might have to make some

is that you might have to make some is that you might have to make some assumptions and so in that sort of

assumptions and so in that sort of assumptions and so in that sort of middleware layer so to speak you might

middleware layer so to speak you might middleware layer so to speak you might have to make some assumptions and almost

have to make some assumptions and almost have to make some assumptions and almost smear that across your data right or in

smear that across your data right or in smear that across your data right or in a perfect world this would be the metric

a perfect world this would be the metric a perfect world this would be the metric X would be the metric we can't get that

X would be the metric we can't get that X would be the metric we can't get that so what's what's next and that's what we

so what's what's next and that's what we so what's what's next and that's what we run the business are and as long as

run the business are and as long as run the business are and as long as we're consistent on that and we iterate

we're consistent on that and we iterate we're consistent on that and we iterate and and refine it that's fine whereas

and and refine it that's fine whereas and and refine it that's fine whereas maybe some people are just sat there

maybe some people are just sat there maybe some people are just sat there going like well we're never going to going like well we're never going to going like well we're never going to know everything from the partners so

know everything from the partners so know everything from the partners so we're not going to do

we're not going to do we're not going to do it makes sense uh so you've got a

it makes sense uh so you've got a it makes sense uh so you've got a background in economics and I wanted to

background in economics and I wanted to background in economics and I wanted to go back to the skill sets of I know what

go back to the skill sets of I know what go back to the skill sets of I know what your skills are I don't have an

your skills are I don't have an your skills are I don't have an economics background I'm kind of

economics background I'm kind of economics background I'm kind of learning this as I go and you know I do

learning this as I go and you know I do learning this as I go and you know I do believe that the finance and the bi

believe that the finance and the bi believe that the finance and the bi skills are important so what are things

skills are important so what are things skills are important so what are things that you think people should pay

that you think people should pay that you think people should pay attention to in both of those segments

attention to in both of those segments attention to in both of those segments especially knowing that I think they

especially knowing that I think they especially knowing that I think they really always go well together yeah I

really always go well together yeah I really always go well together yeah I well I so I did do a ba economics but I

well I so I did do a ba economics but I well I so I did do a ba economics but I think the people that know me especially think the people that know me especially think the people that know me especially from uni would say that I'm nowh they're

from uni would say that I'm nowh they're from uni would say that I'm nowh they're smart enough for a career in economics

smart enough for a career in economics smart enough for a career in economics which is uh why I then went and sort of

which is uh why I then went and sort of which is uh why I then went and sort of played poker professionally for a bit

played poker professionally for a bit played poker professionally for a bit and fell into paid search and other

and fell into paid search and other and fell into paid search and other things um but the the degree was great

things um but the the degree was great things um but the the degree was great because it it allowed lots of different

because it it allowed lots of different because it it allowed lots of different modules so did so politics development

modules so did so politics development modules so did so politics development economics maths like and other sort of

economics maths like and other sort of economics maths like and other sort of supporting pieces and it gave it gave

supporting pieces and it gave it gave supporting pieces and it gave it gave quite a sort of quite a sort of quite a sort of rounded introduction to certain things

rounded introduction to certain things rounded introduction to certain things um and actually I if I'm being honest

um and actually I if I'm being honest um and actually I if I'm being honest I've done very little structured I've done very little structured I've done very little structured learning in my career and it maybe

learning in my career and it maybe learning in my career and it maybe that's bad maybe that's good I'm not

that's bad maybe that's good I'm not that's bad maybe that's good I'm not sure sort of the only certificate piece

sure sort of the only certificate piece sure sort of the only certificate piece of paper I could shap to you in the last

of paper I could shap to you in the last of paper I could shap to you in the last probably five years plus is related to

probably five years plus is related to probably five years plus is related to um Adel and scrum which uh partly as I

um Adel and scrum which uh partly as I um Adel and scrum which uh partly as I started to look after CRM teams

started to look after CRM teams started to look after CRM teams um you know more in that development

um you know more in that development um you know more in that development space who work in that way um I wanted

space who work in that way um I wanted space who work in that way um I wanted to do that to one understand how they

to do that to one understand how they to do that to one understand how they work but two actually that sort of

work but two actually that sort of work but two actually that sort of holding yourself to iterating Value

holding yourself to iterating Value holding yourself to iterating Value which is is what I take out of that sort

which is is what I take out of that sort which is is what I take out of that sort of agile scrum approach that point we

of agile scrum approach that point we of agile scrum approach that point we just made around it's never going to be

just made around it's never going to be just made around it's never going to be perfect but let's just do

perfect but let's just do perfect but let's just do something you know I think that

something you know I think that something you know I think that iterating value is something that I'm

iterating value is something that I'm iterating value is something that I'm constantly trying to do like what what

constantly trying to do like what what constantly trying to do like what what can we move forward in the next couple can we move forward in the next couple can we move forward in the next couple of of of weeks um and you start to build that

weeks um and you start to build that weeks um and you start to build that momentum um but dude sry back to your

momentum um but dude sry back to your momentum um but dude sry back to your question I would say and if I'm talking

question I would say and if I'm talking question I would say and if I'm talking to people or giving any advice the route

to people or giving any advice the route to people or giving any advice the route I've taken that worked for me is I just

I've taken that worked for me is I just I've taken that worked for me is I just roll my S off and got on with it that

roll my S off and got on with it that roll my S off and got on with it that I've got involved and um I think I've

I've got involved and um I think I've I've got involved and um I think I've sort of become a bit of a person in

sort of become a bit of a person in sort of become a bit of a person in businesses being known for getting

businesses being known for getting businesses being known for getting things done I prioritize things and

things done I prioritize things and things done I prioritize things and curious and then the other piece is I

curious and then the other piece is I curious and then the other piece is I always tell people when I'm interested always tell people when I'm interested always tell people when I'm interested in something so so for instance you know

in something so so for instance you know in something so so for instance you know even as a relatively Junior person I

even as a relatively Junior person I even as a relatively Junior person I said to the MD I'm interested in the

said to the MD I'm interested in the said to the MD I'm interested in the budget process I want to be involved and

budget process I want to be involved and budget process I want to be involved and that was okay well the budget process

that was okay well the budget process that was okay well the budget process isn't it's just happened it's not going isn't it's just happened it's not going isn't it's just happened it's not going to be for nine you know nine months time

to be for nine you know nine months time to be for nine you know nine months time that's fine just lay your marker down

that's fine just lay your marker down that's fine just lay your marker down and say this is what I'm interested in

and say this is what I'm interested in and say this is what I'm interested in and um

and um and um I I I don't the things that we're talking

don't the things that we're talking don't the things that we're talking about I I don't think I haven't

about I I don't think I haven't about I I don't think I haven't seen this I don't think there's any

seen this I don't think there's any seen this I don't think there's any courses or anything that you're going to courses or anything that you're going to courses or anything that you're going to do to to really give you

do to to really give you do to to really give you um like the skills and the capability to

um like the skills and the capability to um like the skills and the capability to to do

to do to do this especially

this especially this especially as well as we said Affiliates is a

as well as we said Affiliates is a as well as we said Affiliates is a little bit entrepreneurial right it's a

little bit entrepreneurial right it's a little bit entrepreneurial right it's a little bit more Wild West than other

little bit more Wild West than other little bit more Wild West than other areas um and re and revops is slightly

areas um and re and revops is slightly areas um and re and revops is slightly more undefined like you just got to get

more undefined like you just got to get more undefined like you just got to get involved yeah I agree I mean I think

involved yeah I agree I mean I think involved yeah I agree I mean I think when you look at the whole affilate

when you look at the whole affilate when you look at the whole affilate marketing space the SEO space I mean no

marketing space the SEO space I mean no marketing space the SEO space I mean no one no one I know has gone to school for

one no one I know has gone to school for one no one I know has gone to school for it and there's been some where uh

it and there's been some where uh it and there's been some where uh probably the most common background I've probably the most common background I've probably the most common background I've seen in affiliate marketing is lawyers

seen in affiliate marketing is lawyers seen in affiliate marketing is lawyers dropping at a school to become dropping at a school to become dropping at a school to become Affiliates and actually I met a bunch of

Affiliates and actually I met a bunch of Affiliates and actually I met a bunch of people that studied business um maybe

people that studied business um maybe people that studied business um maybe some Finance but when I look at their

some Finance but when I look at their some Finance but when I look at their backgrounds it's everything and and I

backgrounds it's everything and and I backgrounds it's everything and and I think you're right I think there's a think you're right I think there's a think you're right I think there's a lack of road map when it comes to well

lack of road map when it comes to well lack of road map when it comes to well you can go to school for economics and

you can go to school for economics and you can go to school for economics and finance which I think are still great in

finance which I think are still great in finance which I think are still great in Practical degrees but on the other side

Practical degrees but on the other side Practical degrees but on the other side of it for business intelligence there

of it for business intelligence there of it for business intelligence there are tons of schools offering

are tons of schools offering are tons of schools offering certificates and diplomas and courses

certificates and diplomas and courses certificates and diplomas and courses that are kind of like a bit finite but

that are kind of like a bit finite but that are kind of like a bit finite but when you start shopping for any of this when you start shopping for any of this when you start shopping for any of this stuff it's I mean there's too much stuff

stuff it's I mean there's too much stuff stuff it's I mean there's too much stuff on the market there's every single on the market there's every single on the market there's every single course you can think of you can zero in

course you can think of you can zero in course you can think of you can zero in on looker Studio on Tableau uh you got

on looker Studio on Tableau uh you got on looker Studio on Tableau uh you got new shiny toys like seem to come out

new shiny toys like seem to come out new shiny toys like seem to come out like every you know few months like

hx.com and they just never ends yeah and hx.com and they just never ends yeah and I I think that um there's two schools of

I I think that um there's two schools of I I think that um there's two schools of thought in um some of the things we've

thought in um some of the things we've thought in um some of the things we've been talking about which is do you

been talking about which is do you been talking about which is do you become to an element you

become to an element you become to an element you well especially if you're a solo revops

well especially if you're a solo revops well especially if you're a solo revops person and a more jior person and in

person and a more jior person and in person and a more jior person and in Finance right it's exactly the same and

Finance right it's exactly the same and Finance right it's exactly the same and and in Affiliates you've just got to and in Affiliates you've just got to and in Affiliates you've just got to become a bit of a jack of all trades and

become a bit of a jack of all trades and become a bit of a jack of all trades and master of none um I am not the most

master of none um I am not the most master of none um I am not the most technical person at anything at all like

technical person at anything at all like technical person at anything at all like at all but I have just enough knowledge

at all but I have just enough knowledge at all but I have just enough knowledge which is probably dangerous if you are

which is probably dangerous if you are which is probably dangerous if you are really technical in the area to be able

really technical in the area to be able really technical in the area to be able to understand that you can like build

to understand that you can like build to understand that you can like build this journey but I am not the person to

this journey but I am not the person to this journey but I am not the person to build that journey and the other sort of

build that journey and the other sort of build that journey and the other sort of part of success is like hiring people

part of success is like hiring people part of success is like hiring people that are really smart and trying to pay

that are really smart and trying to pay that are really smart and trying to pay them as much money and getting out of them as much money and getting out of them as much money and getting out of the way which is the old

the way which is the old the way which is the old P that's really like that is really

P that's really like that is really P that's really like that is really important um

important um important um and I I've never been interested in

and I I've never been interested in and I I've never been interested in being like the gatekeeper of the the

being like the gatekeeper of the the being like the gatekeeper of the the systems or like the most technical

systems or like the most technical systems or like the most technical person that's not my interest my

person that's not my interest my person that's not my interest my interest and the P like the flag and the

interest and the P like the flag and the interest and the P like the flag and the ground I want to par line is I'm sort of

ground I want to par line is I'm sort of ground I want to par line is I'm sort of like the commercial I'm the commercial

like the commercial I'm the commercial like the commercial I'm the commercial gu I understand the numbers the levers

gu I understand the numbers the levers gu I understand the numbers the levers we need to pull and and sort of well one

we need to pull and and sort of well one we need to pull and and sort of well one where and how we are trying to get there

where and how we are trying to get there where and how we are trying to get there um yeah cool um because we we chatted

um yeah cool um because we we chatted um yeah cool um because we we chatted before and you were asking you know me

before and you were asking you know me before and you were asking you know me and my company a whole bunch of and my company a whole bunch of and my company a whole bunch of questions and I found them very

questions and I found them very questions and I found them very insightful especially the ones where we

insightful especially the ones where we insightful especially the ones where we started getting into CRM you know from

started getting into CRM you know from started getting into CRM you know from an affiliate point of view and this

an affiliate point of view and this an affiliate point of view and this concept of inventory and this inventory

concept of inventory and this inventory concept of inventory and this inventory thing made me realize that I'm like okay

thing made me realize that I'm like okay thing made me realize that I'm like okay what is lacking in affiliate marketing

what is lacking in affiliate marketing what is lacking in affiliate marketing on both sides of the fence for The

on both sides of the fence for The on both sides of the fence for The Operators the affiliate managers the Operators the affiliate managers the Operators the affiliate managers the affiliate programs and then on the affiliate programs and then on the affiliate programs and then on the affiliate sides um I I do think there's

affiliate sides um I I do think there's affiliate sides um I I do think there's a lack of a real core CRM and I think

a lack of a real core CRM and I think a lack of a real core CRM and I think the concept that you kind of uh you know

the concept that you kind of uh you know the concept that you kind of uh you know kind of iterated was this concept of

kind of iterated was this concept of kind of iterated was this concept of inventory like what is our inventory and

inventory like what is our inventory and inventory like what is our inventory and can we put it into a box can we Define

can we put it into a box can we Define can we put it into a box can we Define it and it made me think that across

it and it made me think that across it and it made me think that across Affiliates I I think there's almost no

Affiliates I I think there's almost no Affiliates I I think there's almost no standards on this like we're actually standards on this like we're actually standards on this like we're actually should building our own inventory assets

should building our own inventory assets should building our own inventory assets for our B2B stuff and we did this before

for our B2B stuff and we did this before for our B2B stuff and we did this before running affiliate sites and we we just

running affiliate sites and we we just running affiliate sites and we we just never really had a system for it I'm never really had a system for it I'm never really had a system for it I'm just wondering if this is kind of like

just wondering if this is kind of like just wondering if this is kind of like an untapped space that could be built

an untapped space that could be built an untapped space that could be built into

into into something I I mean I think so I will

something I I mean I think so I will something I I mean I think so I will hold my hands up and say I don't think I

hold my hands up and say I don't think I hold my hands up and say I don't think I know I I I know you know 1% of what you

know I I I know you know 1% of what you know I I I know you know 1% of what you guys know about Affiliates so I'm not

guys know about Affiliates so I'm not guys know about Affiliates so I'm not sure I think I've had lots of sure I think I've had lots of sure I think I've had lots of conversations with people and I did

conversations with people and I did conversations with people and I did spend a bunch of time a in agency um you

spend a bunch of time a in agency um you spend a bunch of time a in agency um you know about 10 years ago where we did run

know about 10 years ago where we did run know about 10 years ago where we did run affiliate so I have a bit a bit of

affiliate so I have a bit a bit of affiliate so I have a bit a bit of knowledge it does feel like there's a

knowledge it does feel like there's a knowledge it does feel like there's a gap there um you know talking to

gap there um you know talking to gap there um you know talking to everyone there isn't there isn't everyone there isn't there isn't everyone there isn't there isn't anything that comes off the shelf now I

anything that comes off the shelf now I anything that comes off the shelf now I would I would balance that with every

would I would balance that with every would I would balance that with every industrial vertical thinks that they're

industrial vertical thinks that they're industrial vertical thinks that they're special and that it can't be that like

special and that it can't be that like special and that it can't be that like oh no no no you can't use sou sport Subs

oh no no no you can't use sou sport Subs oh no no no you can't use sou sport Subs but whatever it is because we do things

but whatever it is because we do things but whatever it is because we do things differently

differently differently um I'm quite a big fan of offthe shelf

um I'm quite a big fan of offthe shelf um I'm quite a big fan of offthe shelf tool and offthe shelf Specialists so

tool and offthe shelf Specialists so tool and offthe shelf Specialists so like yourself right like you

like yourself right like you like yourself right like you know I I don't want a super complicated

know I I don't want a super complicated know I I don't want a super complicated Tech stack but if someone's really good

Tech stack but if someone's really good Tech stack but if someone's really good good at doing a thing I would much

good at doing a thing I would much good at doing a thing I would much rather work with them than a company

rather work with them than a company rather work with them than a company that's sort of trying to Bol lots of

that's sort of trying to Bol lots of that's sort of trying to Bol lots of bits on the core offering isn't as good

bits on the core offering isn't as good bits on the core offering isn't as good and the the boltons don't quite work

and the the boltons don't quite work and the the boltons don't quite work um but sorry just back to the inventory

um but sorry just back to the inventory um but sorry just back to the inventory piece because well I'm also interested

piece because well I'm also interested piece because well I'm also interested to talk to people who wants to talk to talk to people who wants to talk to talk to people who wants to talk about this but you know what what we

about this but you know what what we about this but you know what what we were talking about before right and how

were talking about before right and how were talking about before right and how I

I I see after after being at fine for a

see after after being at fine for a see after after being at fine for a couple of months I think what we need is

couple of months I think what we need is couple of months I think what we need is we need um you

we need um you we need um you know marketing and generating some leads

know marketing and generating some leads know marketing and generating some leads marketing automation platform sort of

marketing automation platform sort of marketing automation platform sort of that's fairly standard and then CRM that

that's fairly standard and then CRM that that's fairly standard and then CRM that is used to manage customer data and

is used to manage customer data and is used to manage customer data and where salese can view Dynamic pricing

where salese can view Dynamic pricing where salese can view Dynamic pricing based on the available inventory an

based on the available inventory an based on the available inventory an inventory could inventory could inventory could be top lists it could be placements it

be top lists it could be placements it be top lists it could be placements it could be uh news Recs it could be uh

could be uh news Recs it could be uh could be uh news Recs it could be uh programmatic like you know it's a casual

programmatic like you know it's a casual programmatic like you know it's a casual term for all of the stuff

term for all of the stuff term for all of the stuff essentially but I think the the key is

essentially but I think the the key is essentially but I think the the key is that the inventory automatically

that the inventory automatically that the inventory automatically considers all the brand restrictions has

considers all the brand restrictions has considers all the brand restrictions has all the relevant affiliate links which

all the relevant affiliate links which all the relevant affiliate links which and I've spent most of my life in

and I've spent most of my life in and I've spent most of my life in HubSpot and Salesforce so when I say

HubSpot and Salesforce so when I say HubSpot and Salesforce so when I say link to the account that sort of sales

link to the account that sort of sales link to the account that sort of sales fors language of the account object um

fors language of the account object um fors language of the account object um company in HubSpot um and then as the

company in HubSpot um and then as the company in HubSpot um and then as the opportunity is closed one that inventory

opportunity is closed one that inventory opportunity is closed one that inventory is removed from the price list is removed from the price list is removed from the price list immediately so another salesperson can't

immediately so another salesperson can't immediately so another salesperson can't sell the same thing and then that

sell the same thing and then that sell the same thing and then that placement top list whatever is

placement top list whatever is placement top list whatever is automatically automatically automatically updated you know based on the right date

updated you know based on the right date updated you know based on the right date so midnight and a quarter or whatever it

so midnight and a quarter or whatever it so midnight and a quarter or whatever it is the top this flip flips

is the top this flip flips is the top this flip flips over um and so of back to what we were

over um and so of back to what we were over um and so of back to what we were talking before I don't think a

talking before I don't think a talking before I don't think a salesperson or a adops manager or a tech

salesperson or a adops manager or a tech salesperson or a adops manager or a tech person or a CS is going to be able

person or a CS is going to be able person or a CS is going to be able to tell that story yeah because they're

to tell that story yeah because they're to tell that story yeah because they're just trying to um take off chunks of it

just trying to um take off chunks of it just trying to um take off chunks of it and they they're much better place to and they they're much better place to and they they're much better place to take off a chunk of it than I am um but

take off a chunk of it than I am um but take off a chunk of it than I am um but you need to have that complete Journey you need to have that complete Journey you need to have that complete Journey because otherwise there's a bit of a so

because otherwise there's a bit of a so because otherwise there's a bit of a so what like have a brilliant CRM or your

what like have a brilliant CRM or your what like have a brilliant CRM or your you know you're trafficking your your

you know you're trafficking your your you know you're trafficking your your all of your links are perfect but so

all of your links are perfect but so all of your links are perfect but so what because you've got this massive

what because you've got this massive what because you've got this massive manual piece to do do it yeah it's kind

manual piece to do do it yeah it's kind manual piece to do do it yeah it's kind of like you as uh the orchestrator to

of like you as uh the orchestrator to of like you as uh the orchestrator to say okay you can do all those things

say okay you can do all those things say okay you can do all those things individually like the sales they're individually like the sales they're individually like the sales they're going to piig okay I want to I want to

going to piig okay I want to I want to going to piig okay I want to I want to basically put my building items my um

basically put my building items my um basically put my building items my um insertion orders in in one category but

insertion orders in in one category but insertion orders in in one category but it's kind of you saying hey you can

it's kind of you saying hey you can it's kind of you saying hey you can build them all individually but that's

build them all individually but that's build them all individually but that's some point they can and should go

some point they can and should go some point they can and should go together yeah and we come back to the

together yeah and we come back to the together yeah and we come back to the scale bit right which

scale bit right which scale bit right which is I don't know 10 10 years ago if we

is I don't know 10 10 years ago if we is I don't know 10 10 years ago if we wanted to scale a business you would

wanted to scale a business you would wanted to scale a business you would hire five more sales people right and

hire five more sales people right and hire five more sales people right and they would have X quota and therefore

they would have X quota and therefore they would have X quota and therefore you're going to do why more but what

you're going to do why more but what you're going to do why more but what people have started to realize is well

people have started to realize is well people have started to realize is well you know there's there's lots more ways you know there's there's lots more ways you know there's there's lots more ways to grow a business than hiring more to grow a business than hiring more to grow a business than hiring more salese or or adding more you know adding

salese or or adding more you know adding salese or or adding more you know adding more customers um uh not the you don't

more customers um uh not the you don't more customers um uh not the you don't want to do those things but it yeah that

want to do those things but it yeah that want to do those things but it yeah that setting things up for scale and

setting things up for scale and setting things up for scale and repeatability um is how businesses get

repeatability um is how businesses get repeatability um is how businesses get sold is how they get large funding

sold is how they get large funding sold is how they get large funding rounds right yeah that's very true

rounds right yeah that's very true rounds right yeah that's very true um so you've got a like I know you

um so you've got a like I know you um so you've got a like I know you you've got experience in in paid uh

you've got experience in in paid uh you've got experience in in paid uh search paid social SEO and then you've

search paid social SEO and then you've search paid social SEO and then you've got different experience on the m&a side

got different experience on the m&a side got different experience on the m&a side of business I believe so taking this

of business I believe so taking this of business I believe so taking this whole collection of what you you have as

whole collection of what you you have as whole collection of what you you have as your experience when you came into ey

your experience when you came into ey your experience when you came into ey gaming what did you see like did you see

gaming what did you see like did you see gaming what did you see like did you see like um the common thing I hear from a

like um the common thing I hear from a like um the common thing I hear from a lot of people's that they thought it lot of people's that they thought it lot of people's that they thought it would have been way more technically would have been way more technically would have been way more technically Advanced but maybe you might see that as

Advanced but maybe you might see that as Advanced but maybe you might see that as a positive thing where it's like this is

a positive thing where it's like this is a positive thing where it's like this is just a big opportunity to apply revops

just a big opportunity to apply revops just a big opportunity to apply revops and bi yeah I mean the the most mad

and bi yeah I mean the the most mad and bi yeah I mean the the most mad thing is that everyone's uses Skype what

thing is that everyone's uses Skype what thing is that everyone's uses Skype what the hell is going on guys it's not

the hell is going on guys it's not the hell is going on guys it's not 2006 um so I I find that hilarious I I I

2006 um so I I find that hilarious I I I 2006 um so I I find that hilarious I I I don't think I've talked to anyone in the

don't think I've talked to anyone in the don't think I've talked to anyone in the last five years that uses Skype but

last five years that uses Skype but last five years that uses Skype but everyone in Affiliates since to use it

everyone in Affiliates since to use it everyone in Affiliates since to use it um so that that was quite a shock um I

um so that that was quite a shock um I um so that that was quite a shock um I think that um what you just said is is

think that um what you just said is is think that um what you just said is is is ban on is that I would assume I would

is ban on is that I would assume I would is ban on is that I would assume I would have assumed that with the amount of

have assumed that with the amount of have assumed that with the amount of money and the amount of PE like the

money and the amount of PE like the money and the amount of PE like the amount of people doing this like that's

amount of people doing this like that's amount of people doing this like that's there that there would

there that there would there that there would be more of a cookie cutter approach but

be more of a cookie cutter approach but be more of a cookie cutter approach but actually what is what is great is that

actually what is what is great is that actually what is what is great is that it feels really entrepreneurial like it

it feels really entrepreneurial like it it feels really entrepreneurial like it feels like you've almost just discovered

feels like you've almost just discovered feels like you've almost just discovered a new vertical and the opportunity for

a new vertical and the opportunity for a new vertical and the opportunity for impact and batteries to be added is huge

impact and batteries to be added is huge impact and batteries to be added is huge you know if there was a there were eight

you know if there was a there were eight you know if there was a there were eight offthe shelf CRM Inventory management

offthe shelf CRM Inventory management offthe shelf CRM Inventory management systems and the job was install it

systems and the job was install it systems and the job was install it that's a lot less interesting than

that's a lot less interesting than that's a lot less interesting than trying to come up with the O you know

trying to come up with the O you know trying to come up with the O you know trying to come up with like the overall

trying to come up with like the overall trying to come up with like the overall journey and sort of vision of where

journey and sort of vision of where journey and sort of vision of where we're trying to get to and then working

we're trying to get to and then working we're trying to get to and then working out how we make that happen in what will

out how we make that happen in what will out how we make that happen in what will probably be an incomplete way

probably be an incomplete way probably be an incomplete way because of the Black Box

because of the Black Box because of the Black Box situation so yeah I I've I've

situation so yeah I I've I've situation so yeah I I've I've found um I think that's the thing that

found um I think that's the thing that found um I think that's the thing that I'm I'm being really drawn to um I've

I'm I'm being really drawn to um I've I'm I'm being really drawn to um I've I've been uh you know it's it's relevant

I've been uh you know it's it's relevant I've been uh you know it's it's relevant to what you just said but I've been to what you just said but I've been to what you just said but I've been surprised by how Silo the nature of the

surprised by how Silo the nature of the surprised by how Silo the nature of the partner like everyone does everyone does

partner like everyone does everyone does partner like everyone does everyone does things in different ways and there's

things in different ways and there's things in different ways and there's no there's no uniformity at all and

no there's no uniformity at all and no there's no uniformity at all and there's these heavy manual lifts that

there's these heavy manual lifts that there's these heavy manual lifts that seem to take place on both like

seem to take place on both like seem to take place on both like publisher on partner on you know like

publisher on partner on you know like publisher on partner on you know like everyone just seems to be doing these

everyone just seems to be doing these everyone just seems to be doing these crazy heavy lifts and you almost feel

crazy heavy lifts and you almost feel crazy heavy lifts and you almost feel like you need a you know you need like a

like you need a you know you need like a like you need a you know you need like a board or or something where people get

board or or something where people get board or or something where people get together go hey guys can we like can we

together go hey guys can we like can we together go hey guys can we like can we do this in the same way um so

do this in the same way um so do this in the same way um so yeah now with a board would you say like

yeah now with a board would you say like yeah now with a board would you say like that's one thing that's missing in most

that's one thing that's missing in most that's one thing that's missing in most companies is they don't really have a companies is they don't really have a companies is they don't really have a structured board like as of today the

structured board like as of today the structured board like as of today the only board that we have in our companies

only board that we have in our companies only board that we have in our companies myself and my business partner now it's

myself and my business partner now it's myself and my business partner now it's not to say that we don't want a board

not to say that we don't want a board not to say that we don't want a board but we've been very cautious about um

but we've been very cautious about um but we've been very cautious about um how we do this because we've had people

how we do this because we've had people how we do this because we've had people that have come on board in the company

that have come on board in the company that have come on board in the company and not worked out after three months and not worked out after three months and not worked out after three months and you got to give them time to realize

and you got to give them time to realize and you got to give them time to realize is it a fit or not but I'm I'm just

is it a fit or not but I'm I'm just is it a fit or not but I'm I'm just thinking that you know what a board

thinking that you know what a board thinking that you know what a board could and should do is bring good ide

could and should do is bring good ide could and should do is bring good ide ideas and maybe ask the uncomfortable

ideas and maybe ask the uncomfortable ideas and maybe ask the uncomfortable questions and a lot of the most common

questions and a lot of the most common questions and a lot of the most common uncomfortable questions are always uncomfortable questions are always uncomfortable questions are always Finance related yeah yeah it's a really

Finance related yeah yeah it's a really Finance related yeah yeah it's a really interesting point so I've worked

interesting point so I've worked interesting point so I've worked for uh P or VC back companies for the

for uh P or VC back companies for the for uh P or VC back companies for the last eight plus years and um f like

last eight plus years and um f like last eight plus years and um f like yourself don't have you know um I

yourself don't have you know um I yourself don't have you know um I suppose bootstrapped up and um you know

suppose bootstrapped up and um you know suppose bootstrapped up and um you know they've got to where they had with Co of

they've got to where they had with Co of they've got to where they had with Co of bambas doing well and you know that's

bambas doing well and you know that's bambas doing well and you know that's that's that's that's amazing I cannot tell you

amazing I cannot tell you amazing I cannot tell you the amount of time I've spent over the

the amount of time I've spent over the the amount of time I've spent over the last whatever eight nine

last whatever eight nine last whatever eight nine years doing things because a board has

years doing things because a board has years doing things because a board has as the ey of Sauron has turned onto X

as the ey of Sauron has turned onto X as the ey of Sauron has turned onto X part of the business

part of the business part of the business and the SE Suite know that it's not

and the SE Suite know that it's not and the SE Suite know that it's not going to move the needle you know that

going to move the needle you know that going to move the needle you know that it's not going to move the needle but

it's not going to move the needle but it's not going to move the needle but somebody important has asked a question

somebody important has asked a question somebody important has asked a question and therefore we need to go and you know

and therefore we need to go and you know and therefore we need to go and you know answer that and only being at fine for a

answer that and only being at fine for a answer that and only being at fine for a short short short time I feel like I've got about 20% of

time I feel like I've got about 20% of time I feel like I've got about 20% of my time back because there isn't a board

my time back because there isn't a board my time back because there isn't a board asking those

asking those asking those questions

questions questions but I also think that they would be

but I also think that they would be but I also think that they would be likely in a better

likely in a better likely in a better place you know from an in you know from

place you know from an in you know from place you know from an in you know from a sort of tool and systems and process

a sort of tool and systems and process a sort of tool and systems and process place if you had that

place if you had that place if you had that board so I I don't know I don't know I

board so I I don't know I don't know I board so I I don't know I don't know I pros and cons it can always be added if

pros and cons it can always be added if pros and cons it can always be added if you think it it matters but I guess it

you think it it matters but I guess it you think it it matters but I guess it depends on the size of your organization

depends on the size of your organization depends on the size of your organization what kind of growth you have and I guess

what kind of growth you have and I guess what kind of growth you have and I guess really what is the end goal yeah and I

really what is the end goal yeah and I really what is the end goal yeah and I would I would imagine for yourself a way

would I would imagine for yourself a way would I would imagine for yourself a way that you could do it so right what are that you could do it so right what are that you could do it so right what are our strategic objective like what are we

our strategic objective like what are we our strategic objective like what are we trying to do where do we want to be in a trying to do where do we want to be in a trying to do where do we want to be in a couple of years time we want to be doing

couple of years time we want to be doing couple of years time we want to be doing X so we talked about CRM right so you

X so we talked about CRM right so you X so we talked about CRM right so you you well you might board is maybe too

you well you might board is maybe too you well you might board is maybe too fancy the time right but you might just

fancy the time right but you might just fancy the time right but you might just bring an advisor in that says okay fine

bring an advisor in that says okay fine bring an advisor in that says okay fine like your job is to is to ask annoying

like your job is to is to ask annoying like your job is to is to ask annoying questions and really like hold us to

questions and really like hold us to questions and really like hold us to account on this this piece of the

account on this this piece of the account on this this piece of the business and then maybe that sort of

business and then maybe that sort of business and then maybe that sort of grows out

grows out grows out into like into something wider um yeah

into like into something wider um yeah into like into something wider um yeah that might be sort of the pragmatic way that might be sort of the pragmatic way that might be sort of the pragmatic way of doing it yeah I agree yeah out of

of doing it yeah I agree yeah out of of doing it yeah I agree yeah out of Interest why why didn't they work out o

Interest why why didn't they work out o Interest why why didn't they work out o i I know they don't listen to this

i I know they don't listen to this i I know they don't listen to this podcast I don't feel was not on a

podcast I don't feel was not on a podcast I don't feel was not on a personal level but was it like a sort of

personal level but was it like a sort of personal level but was it like a sort of a structural or they weren't close

a structural or they weren't close a structural or they weren't close enough to the business to be able to enough to the business to be able to enough to the business to be able to provide the value like how it's been

provide the value like how it's been provide the value like how it's been anything and everything um so it's been

anything and everything um so it's been anything and everything um so it's been like a few different people it's just

like a few different people it's just like a few different people it's just been uh Vision not align um you know

been uh Vision not align um you know been uh Vision not align um you know their their priorities within the their their priorities within the their their priorities within the company not align um we've had it where

company not align um we've had it where company not align um we've had it where it's just been total culture Clash we

it's just been total culture Clash we it's just been total culture Clash we like look you're just rubbing people the

like look you're just rubbing people the like look you're just rubbing people the wrong way and we're all fighting it's

wrong way and we're all fighting it's wrong way and we're all fighting it's we're not getting work done we're we're not getting work done we're we're not getting work done we're actually spending time in meetings that

actually spending time in meetings that actually spending time in meetings that just are not productive at all it's uh

just are not productive at all it's uh just are not productive at all it's uh you know I think that's kind of like you know I think that's kind of like you know I think that's kind of like another part of business where when

another part of business where when another part of business where when you've got someone that doesn't work

you've got someone that doesn't work you've got someone that doesn't work it's the longer you keep them on the it's the longer you keep them on the it's the longer you keep them on the more damage that you do um but for the

more damage that you do um but for the more damage that you do um but for the most part it's um I find what our

most part it's um I find what our most part it's um I find what our personal uh biggest problem is um one

personal uh biggest problem is um one personal uh biggest problem is um one part I believe we are solving which is

part I believe we are solving which is part I believe we are solving which is like we are a data and analytics company

like we are a data and analytics company like we are a data and analytics company or a bi tool for Phil help them be

or a bi tool for Phil help them be or a bi tool for Phil help them be better with their numbers and we haven't

better with their numbers and we haven't better with their numbers and we haven't been that in the past so we've basically

been that in the past so we've basically been that in the past so we've basically gotten sharper on that and investors

gotten sharper on that and investors gotten sharper on that and investors have have helped us in saying you know

have have helped us in saying you know have have helped us in saying you know we're going to be the brutal ones asking we're going to be the brutal ones asking we're going to be the brutal ones asking the tough questions so go get this done

the tough questions so go get this done the tough questions so go get this done make sure you sharpen your pnls um but I

make sure you sharpen your pnls um but I make sure you sharpen your pnls um but I think the other part of what we have in

think the other part of what we have in think the other part of what we have in our personal situation and I'd say it's

our personal situation and I'd say it's our personal situation and I'd say it's probably not that much different than probably not that much different than probably not that much different than find is what direction do you want to go

find is what direction do you want to go find is what direction do you want to go like for us we could be going further

like for us we could be going further like for us we could be going further into CRM into business intelligence we

into CRM into business intelligence we into CRM into business intelligence we can go into adtech and I think with a

can go into adtech and I think with a can go into adtech and I think with a company like fine it's kind of like well

company like fine it's kind of like well company like fine it's kind of like well do you want to go like acquire more

do you want to go like acquire more do you want to go like acquire more larger media sites or do you want to be

larger media sites or do you want to be larger media sites or do you want to be like super Niche it's uh you know

like super Niche it's uh you know like super Niche it's uh you know everything's kind of fluid and I think

everything's kind of fluid and I think everything's kind of fluid and I think um you know what helps is to have people

um you know what helps is to have people um you know what helps is to have people that have experience and kind of going

that have experience and kind of going that have experience and kind of going well I think this and then you know

well I think this and then you know well I think this and then you know you're not you're maybe not going to you're not you're maybe not going to you're not you're maybe not going to solve those questions in a quick like 30

solve those questions in a quick like 30 solve those questions in a quick like 30 minute call but you our job is to see

minute call but you our job is to see minute call but you our job is to see the market you know talk to our users

the market you know talk to our users the market you know talk to our users and get an idea of like what's happening

and get an idea of like what's happening and get an idea of like what's happening on the market like what's what are the

on the market like what's what are the on the market like what's what are the conversations that are being talked conversations that are being talked conversations that are being talked about like CRM for example where it's

about like CRM for example where it's about like CRM for example where it's like wait a minute there isn't a proper

like wait a minute there isn't a proper like wait a minute there isn't a proper CRM for affiliate marketing and then the

CRM for affiliate marketing and then the CRM for affiliate marketing and then the same would be on the same for fine side

same would be on the same for fine side same would be on the same for fine side to kind of go well what is working like

to kind of go well what is working like to kind of go well what is working like if you saw the revenue the conversion

if you saw the revenue the conversion if you saw the revenue the conversion rat starting to Trend down but the

rat starting to Trend down but the rat starting to Trend down but the traffic remaining the same be big we got

traffic remaining the same be big we got traffic remaining the same be big we got a big problem here that we got to solve

a big problem here that we got to solve a big problem here that we got to solve like are we in the right space or um

like are we in the right space or um like are we in the right space or um does our product need to change yeah

does our product need to change yeah does our product need to change yeah yeah yeah and and this you know just on

yeah yeah and and this you know just on yeah yeah and and this you know just on a s MP

a s MP a s MP system a really obvious to me strategic

system a really obvious to me strategic system a really obvious to me strategic question is well are you building a ser

question is well are you building a ser question is well are you building a ser or actually you saying that you want to or actually you saying that you want to or actually you saying that you want to build for instance a plugin into an App

build for instance a plugin into an App build for instance a plugin into an App Store that could sit in Salesforce or

Store that could sit in Salesforce or Store that could sit in Salesforce or hubs um store right because that that's

hubs um store right because that that's hubs um store right because that that's a very very different way to go but you

a very very different way to go but you a very very different way to go but you could probably dip your toe in it much

could probably dip your toe in it much could probably dip your toe in it much easier much cheaper much quicker and and

easier much cheaper much quicker and and easier much cheaper much quicker and and almost get that product Market fit

almost get that product Market fit almost get that product Market fit where um a good example would be like

where um a good example would be like where um a good example would be like lead distribution so you know you get a

lead distribution so you know you get a lead distribution so you know you get a load of leads in and you want to give it load of leads in and you want to give it load of leads in and you want to give it to X People based on Y and Zed and

to X People based on Y and Zed and to X People based on Y and Zed and serums don't do that but actually I've

serums don't do that but actually I've serums don't do that but actually I've always ended up just adding a plugin in

always ended up just adding a plugin in always ended up just adding a plugin in on top of an Enterprise CRM I wouldn't

on top of an Enterprise CRM I wouldn't on top of an Enterprise CRM I wouldn't buy a tool to do it so yeah it it that

buy a tool to do it so yeah it it that buy a tool to do it so yeah it it that sort of like Nuance is is important um I

sort of like Nuance is is important um I sort of like Nuance is is important um I think one of the things that I've

think one of the things that I've think one of the things that I've learned um and you know I've obviously

learned um and you know I've obviously learned um and you know I've obviously I've never run a business I've never

I've never run a business I've never I've never run a business I've never I've never done that um is the clarity

I've never done that um is the clarity I've never done that um is the clarity of focus of where you're going to the

of focus of where you're going to the of focus of where you're going to the organization of what you're trying to do

organization of what you're trying to do organization of what you're trying to do is so crucial and it doesn't even

is so crucial and it doesn't even is so crucial and it doesn't even actually have to be a good plan it just

actually have to be a good plan it just actually have to be a good plan it just has to be a consistent plan um a CEO

has to be a consistent plan um a CEO has to be a consistent plan um a CEO once told me he said that he was just

once told me he said that he was just once told me he said that he was just going to say what the company was trying

going to say what the company was trying going to say what the company was trying to do until everyone just hated him

to do until everyone just hated him to do until everyone just hated him basically like you know he could I

basically like you know he could I basically like you know he could I called it the Christmas party test so

called it the Christmas party test so called it the Christmas party test so you walked in Christmas party and you

you walked in Christmas party and you you walked in Christmas party and you asked everyone what does a company do

asked everyone what does a company do asked everyone what does a company do and you know if you get back 80 90% of

and you know if you get back 80 90% of and you know if you get back 80 90% of people saying the same thing then you

people saying the same thing then you people saying the same thing then you know the marketing director and can keep

know the marketing director and can keep know the marketing director and can keep their job and if not might have to have

their job and if not might have to have their job and if not might have to have a conversation but I think that as like

a conversation but I think that as like a conversation but I think that as like a direction of thought is quite

a direction of thought is quite a direction of thought is quite important well it's interesting because

important well it's interesting because important well it's interesting because you know going back to 9% of businesses

you know going back to 9% of businesses you know going back to 9% of businesses fail do you think maybe in our industry

fail do you think maybe in our industry fail do you think maybe in our industry there's too many companies that are not

there's too many companies that are not there's too many companies that are not only sales focused but they're they're

only sales focused but they're they're only sales focused but they're they're money focused but in the wrong sense

money focused but in the wrong sense money focused but in the wrong sense like money is like win the money at all

like money is like win the money at all like money is like win the money at all costs which could destroy your future

costs which could destroy your future costs which could destroy your future it's uh it's almost like they don't like

it's uh it's almost like they don't like it's uh it's almost like they don't like there's a lack of care about the there's a lack of care about the there's a lack of care about the customer and the product like the people

customer and the product like the people customer and the product like the people that are super passionate product and

that are super passionate product and that are super passionate product and all that and they're say look we don't all that and they're say look we don't all that and they're say look we don't want to build just another online casino

want to build just another online casino want to build just another online casino site or we don't want to just build site or we don't want to just build site or we don't want to just build another affiliate site and I think

another affiliate site and I think another affiliate site and I think Google's already pushing people around

Google's already pushing people around Google's already pushing people around and saying look if you're just going to

and saying look if you're just going to and saying look if you're just going to be another one of those another

be another one of those another be another one of those another affiliate sites why is Google going to

affiliate sites why is Google going to affiliate sites why is Google going to give you that traffic and I think Google

give you that traffic and I think Google give you that traffic and I think Google with the restructuring of you know the

with the restructuring of you know the with the restructuring of you know the search with helpful content updates and

search with helpful content updates and search with helpful content updates and all of these different um updates I

all of these different um updates I all of these different um updates I think it's actually putting that think it's actually putting that think it's actually putting that question back on Affiliates where I'm

question back on Affiliates where I'm question back on Affiliates where I'm I'm watching Affiliates in the I'm watching Affiliates in the I'm watching Affiliates in the background I go on HRS and I even talk

background I go on HRS and I even talk background I go on HRS and I even talk to them it's like their sites are to them it's like their sites are to them it's like their sites are struggling they're like I don't know struggling they're like I don't know struggling they're like I don't know what to do and it's like well you're what to do and it's like well you're what to do and it's like well you're doing what used to work but it's not

doing what used to work but it's not doing what used to work but it's not working anymore I think if you only have

working anymore I think if you only have working anymore I think if you only have the the money hat on I think that's

the the money hat on I think that's the the money hat on I think that's maybe the biggest risk in the business

maybe the biggest risk in the business maybe the biggest risk in the business yeah and yeah it's that sort of

yeah and yeah it's that sort of yeah and yeah it's that sort of shortterm gain long you know versus the

shortterm gain long you know versus the shortterm gain long you know versus the Strategic Direction um which is is

Strategic Direction um which is is Strategic Direction um which is is always difficult

always difficult always difficult and I've always thought about it if you

and I've always thought about it if you and I've always thought about it if you can have a if you can have the CEO doing

can have a if you can have the CEO doing can have a if you can have the CEO doing the long-term stuff full-time and if you

the long-term stuff full-time and if you the long-term stuff full-time and if you have the MD or the cro or whoever that

have the MD or the cro or whoever that have the MD or the cro or whoever that role is during the day today that's a

role is during the day today that's a role is during the day today that's a really good way sort of organization to

really good way sort of organization to really good way sort of organization to say to people like this this is who's

say to people like this this is who's say to people like this this is who's responsible for these things and this is

responsible for these things and this is responsible for these things and this is why I'm talking about this and this

why I'm talking about this and this why I'm talking about this and this person is talking about this and holding

person is talking about this and holding person is talking about this and holding those people to account for those those

those people to account for those those those people to account for those those pieces um but it's also as a business

pieces um but it's also as a business pieces um but it's also as a business it's about confidence right it's about

it's about confidence right it's about it's about confidence right it's about confidence confidence confidence in the the business in the medium term

in the the business in the medium term in the the business in the medium term to be able to say no no no this is our

to be able to say no no no this is our to be able to say no no no this is our product like really understanding your

product like really understanding your product like really understanding your ICP and your product and being them in

ICP and your product and being them in ICP and your product and being them in it to as you say maybe not take a big

it to as you say maybe not take a big it to as you say maybe not take a big deal with you know let's say someone

deal with you know let's say someone deal with you know let's say someone turned up and said I'm going to pay you

turned up and said I'm going to pay you turned up and said I'm going to pay you X because we want you to build the

X because we want you to build the X because we want you to build the CRM

CRM CRM well that could be a major issue where

well that could be a major issue where well that could be a major issue where your call product just doesn't get the

your call product just doesn't get the your call product just doesn't get the love and attention in needes three other

love and attention in needes three other love and attention in needes three other people spin up versions in the next six

people spin up versions in the next six people spin up versions in the next six months actually no one else is

months actually no one else is months actually no one else is interested in a CRM because maybe they

interested in a CRM because maybe they interested in a CRM because maybe they just want to plug in or maybe Affiliates just want to plug in or maybe Affiliates just want to plug in or maybe Affiliates aren't special at all and actually you aren't special at all and actually you aren't special at all and actually you can just do it normally through custom

can just do it normally through custom can just do it normally through custom objects and yeah so I completely agree

objects and yeah so I completely agree objects and yeah so I completely agree and then going full circle back to the

and then going full circle back to the and then going full circle back to the very beginning where we started talking

very beginning where we started talking very beginning where we started talking about the sales versus marketing um I I

about the sales versus marketing um I I about the sales versus marketing um I I just did a a newsletter this morning

just did a a newsletter this morning just did a a newsletter this morning that just went out automatically before

that just went out automatically before that just went out automatically before recording and it was me talking about

recording and it was me talking about recording and it was me talking about you know going back to Chris Walker's uh

you know going back to Chris Walker's uh you know going back to Chris Walker's uh podcast about you know the sales and

podcast about you know the sales and podcast about you know the sales and marketing being very misaligned and I'm

marketing being very misaligned and I'm marketing being very misaligned and I'm wondering if maybe igaming has too much

wondering if maybe igaming has too much wondering if maybe igaming has too much emphasis on on sales like there's sales

emphasis on on sales like there's sales emphasis on on sales like there's sales on the fil side like go get all these

on the fil side like go get all these on the fil side like go get all these sales done go get your deals and get

sales done go get your deals and get sales done go get your deals and get them at all costs and I think we have

them at all costs and I think we have them at all costs and I think we have them on the other side the affiliate

them on the other side the affiliate them on the other side the affiliate managers where their sales Focus I don't

managers where their sales Focus I don't managers where their sales Focus I don't think they've got a good CRM to manage

think they've got a good CRM to manage think they've got a good CRM to manage things they'll they might use HubSpot

things they'll they might use HubSpot things they'll they might use HubSpot and Salesforce to get the leads but

and Salesforce to get the leads but and Salesforce to get the leads but there's just a lack of let's build a

there's just a lack of let's build a there's just a lack of let's build a relationship and I'm just thinking this

relationship and I'm just thinking this relationship and I'm just thinking this relationship product and marketing I I

relationship product and marketing I I relationship product and marketing I I think marketing is probably the the

think marketing is probably the the think marketing is probably the the thing we're missing the most in igaming

thing we're missing the most in igaming thing we're missing the most in igaming yes I think just to just a sort of

yes I think just to just a sort of yes I think just to just a sort of couple of thoughts on that I think couple of thoughts on that I think couple of thoughts on that I think there's some things that sort of bi rops

there's some things that sort of bi rops there's some things that sort of bi rops even Finance can do to help that which

even Finance can do to help that which even Finance can do to help that which is what are the metrics that help

is what are the metrics that help is what are the metrics that help counter that so for instance a

counter that so for instance a counter that so for instance a traditional marketing metric right would

traditional marketing metric right would traditional marketing metric right would be how many leads you driving whatever

be how many leads you driving whatever be how many leads you driving whatever um actually I think that a really good

um actually I think that a really good um actually I think that a really good powerful metric there is percentage of

powerful metric there is percentage of powerful metric there is percentage of m2l leads that meet ICP so you know if

m2l leads that meet ICP so you know if m2l leads that meet ICP so you know if as a find if we're a publisher we know

as a find if we're a publisher we know as a find if we're a publisher we know based on history that you know XY and

based on history that you know XY and based on history that you know XY and Zed make a good partner and it's worth

Zed make a good partner and it's worth Zed make a good partner and it's worth our time and their time but as a sales

our time and their time but as a sales our time and their time but as a sales person it can just be worth you know if

person it can just be worth you know if person it can just be worth you know if you can sign up 14e accounts why not

you can sign up 14e accounts why not you can sign up 14e accounts why not sign up 14 accounts but actually for my

sign up 14 accounts but actually for my sign up 14 accounts but actually for my revops town the downstream problems of

revops town the downstream problems of revops town the downstream problems of that of onboarding them and the adops

that of onboarding them and the adops that of onboarding them and the adops and everything like that it's not ICP

and everything like that it's not ICP and everything like that it's not ICP like what why are we doing this and yeah

like what why are we doing this and yeah like what why are we doing this and yeah you you know John the salesperson can

you you know John the salesperson can you you know John the salesperson can stand there and say hey I'm board 14 new

stand there and say hey I'm board 14 new stand there and say hey I'm board 14 new account new record but like so what um

account new record but like so what um account new record but like so what um and on the customer success side because

and on the customer success side because and on the customer success side because I would say customer success gets the

I would say customer success gets the I would say customer success gets the least love in all the industries I've

least love in all the industries I've least love in all the industries I've ever worked in and it's the least it's

ever worked in and it's the least it's ever worked in and it's the least it's partly because it's like the least partly because it's like the least partly because it's like the least definable as a process because you're

definable as a process because you're definable as a process because you're just reacting to customers and you know

just reacting to customers and you know just reacting to customers and you know I send your guys five emails yesterday

I send your guys five emails yesterday I send your guys five emails yesterday on probably four different things right

on probably four different things right on probably four different things right you can't build a process for that um

you can't build a process for that um you can't build a process for that um and um but everyone got back to me very

and um but everyone got back to me very and um but everyone got back to me very quickly by the way just for just for quickly by the way just for just for quickly by the way just for just for clarity sake um the you know a really

clarity sake um the you know a really clarity sake um the you know a really good metric on the other side is time to

good metric on the other side is time to good metric on the other side is time to Value so comes a bit from the SAS world

Value so comes a bit from the SAS world Value so comes a bit from the SAS world but time to Value which is you pick a

but time to Value which is you pick a but time to Value which is you pick a point at which you think you have

point at which you think you have point at which you think you have delivered value to your customer so for

delivered value to your customer so for delivered value to your customer so for instance for you guys it might be that

instance for you guys it might be that instance for you guys it might be that you know they've got their first account

you know they've got their first account you know they've got their first account logged in and the numbers work or

logged in and the numbers work or logged in and the numbers work or whatever it might be and then that is

whatever it might be and then that is whatever it might be and then that is what you

what you what you track um and you use as a kpi to

track um and you use as a kpi to track um and you use as a kpi to determine like if customers are happy

determine like if customers are happy determine like if customers are happy yes not not MPS not you know you can do

yes not not MPS not you know you can do yes not not MPS not you know you can do obviously you have lots of other health obviously you have lots of other health obviously you have lots of other health metrics but I found that the time to

metrics but I found that the time to metrics but I found that the time to value is a really powerful metric if you

value is a really powerful metric if you value is a really powerful metric if you can get it working and obviously you

can get it working and obviously you can get it working and obviously you tweak it for your business and the

tweak it for your business and the tweak it for your business and the um the the key the the really

um the the key the the really um the the key the the really interesting thing is it's not always the

interesting thing is it's not always the interesting thing is it's not always the shorter the time to Value the

shorter the time to Value the shorter the time to Value the better because actually you might be

better because actually you might be better because actually you might be able to get an account working within able to get an account working within able to get an account working within two minutes but I've got no idea what to

two minutes but I've got no idea what to two minutes but I've got no idea what to do with the platform or what to do next

do with the platform or what to do next do with the platform or what to do next anyway so just a like maybe some

anyway so just a like maybe some anyway so just a like maybe some practical ways that you can actually practical ways that you can actually practical ways that you can actually start to counter what you were talking

start to counter what you were talking start to counter what you were talking about yeah so I I I I definitely want to

about yeah so I I I I definitely want to about yeah so I I I I definitely want to touch on that a bit uh more but I want

touch on that a bit uh more but I want touch on that a bit uh more but I want to take a step back where it's like I

to take a step back where it's like I to take a step back where it's like I can't tell you how many times people try

can't tell you how many times people try can't tell you how many times people try to set up meetings with me at to set up meetings with me at to set up meetings with me at conferences I'm like I'm not your

conferences I'm like I'm not your conferences I'm like I'm not your ICP why you and they get offended when I

ICP why you and they get offended when I ICP why you and they get offended when I tell them this and say look you we're

tell them this and say look you we're tell them this and say look you we're gonna be wasting each other's time I gonna be wasting each other's time I gonna be wasting each other's time I can't do this and it's like they care

can't do this and it's like they care can't do this and it's like they care more about just saying hey I've got a

more about just saying hey I've got a more about just saying hey I've got a fully book calendar than they do saying

fully book calendar than they do saying fully book calendar than they do saying hey my calendar's half book but it's all

hey my calendar's half book but it's all hey my calendar's half book but it's all the the the ICP yeah yeah yeah or even it's just

ICP yeah yeah yeah or even it's just ICP yeah yeah yeah or even it's just I've got two meetings yeah um and you

I've got two meetings yeah um and you I've got two meetings yeah um and you know that that also then comes from the

know that that also then comes from the know that that also then comes from the like Town work that should have been

like Town work that should have been like Town work that should have been done at the beginning of the year or for done at the beginning of the year or for done at the beginning of the year or for the budget that says you know what

the budget that says you know what the budget that says you know what there's this many accounts we want to go

there's this many accounts we want to go there's this many accounts we want to go after in ICP we've already got these you

after in ICP we've already got these you after in ICP we've already got these you know a successful ring rate would be

know a successful ring rate would be know a successful ring rate would be this actually do you know what John if

this actually do you know what John if this actually do you know what John if you can get two meetings a month we

you can get two meetings a month we you can get two meetings a month we convert them through do you know what I

convert them through do you know what I convert them through do you know what I mean you build that you build that mean you build that you build that mean you build that you build that funnel and that budget back to the funnel and that budget back to the funnel and that budget back to the financing and that model would be a

financing and that model would be a financing and that model would be a living breeding thing that I would be

living breeding thing that I would be living breeding thing that I would be working on and keeping up to date with

working on and keeping up to date with working on and keeping up to date with fin Finance with fpna probably using be

fin Finance with fpna probably using be fin Finance with fpna probably using be um I think that's how you get almost

um I think that's how you get almost um I think that's how you get almost that confidence right to be able to say

that confidence right to be able to say that confidence right to be able to say good news meetings are down 200% from

good news meetings are down 200% from good news meetings are down 200% from last year but that you know that's good

last year but that you know that's good last year but that you know that's good because we're getting double the amount because we're getting double the amount because we're getting double the amount of meetings that we want to get and we

of meetings that we want to get and we of meetings that we want to get and we want to get them because of this yeah

want to get them because of this yeah want to get them because of this yeah and that's almost like Common Sense bi

and that's almost like Common Sense bi and that's almost like Common Sense bi right there yeah yeah yeah exactly and

right there yeah yeah yeah exactly and right there yeah yeah yeah exactly and then uh last but not least says what do

then uh last but not least says what do then uh last but not least says what do you see of the future of affiliate maret you see of the future of affiliate maret you see of the future of affiliate maret marketing as it intersects with business

intelligence well I I think lot lots and intelligence well I I think lot lots and lots of opportunity

lots of opportunity lots of opportunity so like any sector it's going to become

so like any sector it's going to become so like any sector it's going to become hand in hand so um actually one of the

hand in hand so um actually one of the hand in hand so um actually one of the initial projects so we've got a head of

initial projects so we've got a head of initial projects so we've got a head of bi who's joined recently he's been

bi who's joined recently he's been bi who's joined recently he's been running a um a process to bring on a new

running a um a process to bring on a new running a um a process to bring on a new bi tool but you can see that these bi

bi tool but you can see that these bi bi tool but you can see that these bi tools are and their ability to answer

tools are and their ability to answer tools are and their ability to answer questions do projections and all of that

questions do projections and all of that questions do projections and all of that that sort of thing I think everyone is

that sort of thing I think everyone is that sort of thing I think everyone is saying it's in an alpha stage at the saying it's in an alpha stage at the saying it's in an alpha stage at the moment so you know the question

moment so you know the question moment so you know the question of which of um you know I've got a I've

of which of um you know I've got a I've of which of um you know I've got a I've got one bace left if you have if you had

got one bace left if you have if you had got one bace left if you have if you had the vision of the inventory management

the vision of the inventory management the vision of the inventory management and you I've got one top L Place L who

and you I've got one top L Place L who and you I've got one top L Place L who should I give it to right the the latest

should I give it to right the the latest should I give it to right the the latest generation of bi tools I'm not quite at

generation of bi tools I'm not quite at generation of bi tools I'm not quite at the stage where they can tell you I the stage where they can tell you I the stage where they can tell you I think they could but you'd have to do a think they could but you'd have to do a think they could but you'd have to do a lot of prompting but give it 6 months

lot of prompting but give it 6 months lot of prompting but give it 6 months give it 12 12 months you know you're

give it 12 12 months you know you're give it 12 12 months you know you're going to be able to ask these tools like

going to be able to ask these tools like going to be able to ask these tools like one pound where put it next right and

one pound where put it next right and one pound where put it next right and they're going to be able to come back to they're going to be able to come back to they're going to be able to come back to you and you and you and say okay the and then that impacts

say okay the and then that impacts say okay the and then that impacts Dynamic pricing because

Dynamic pricing because Dynamic pricing because actually you know on paper like I should

actually you know on paper like I should actually you know on paper like I should charge you X but we can tell that you're

charge you X but we can tell that you're charge you X but we can tell that you're going to do y and so actually it's in

going to do y and so actually it's in going to do y and so actually it's in our interest to incentivize you to buy

our interest to incentivize you to buy our interest to incentivize you to buy this PL you know all of that

this PL you know all of that this PL you know all of that complexity um so

complexity um so complexity um so um probably partly because I'm working

um probably partly because I'm working um probably partly because I'm working on this at the moment but I can see that

on this at the moment but I can see that on this at the moment but I can see that really coming together um especially is

really coming together um especially is really coming together um especially is I know you guys are working on you get I know you guys are working on you get I know you guys are working on you get that player level tracking to be able to

that player level tracking to be able to that player level tracking to be able to give a like a really well a more um

give a like a really well a more um give a like a really well a more um detailed funnel

detailed funnel detailed funnel yes um and then the other piece which I

yes um and then the other piece which I yes um and then the other piece which I think is quite interesting which again I

think is quite interesting which again I think is quite interesting which again I haven't really got into yet but is

haven't really got into yet but is haven't really got into yet but is the uh recurring versus new B yeah and

the uh recurring versus new B yeah and the uh recurring versus new B yeah and then the sort of strategic Direction

then the sort of strategic Direction then the sort of strategic Direction based off that so you know what are we

based off that so you know what are we based off that so you know what are we trying you know if if a lot of our deals

trying you know if if a lot of our deals trying you know if if a lot of our deals are CPA are CPA are CPA based then actually we want to be doing

based then actually we want to be doing based then actually we want to be doing very different things in very different things in very different things in marketing or you know nurturing sort of

marketing or you know nurturing sort of marketing or you know nurturing sort of um individuals versus if it's a REV

um individuals versus if it's a REV um individuals versus if it's a REV share you know thinking about are you um

share you know thinking about are you um share you know thinking about are you um you know are uh certain areas you know

you know are uh certain areas you know you know are uh certain areas you know uh full are they saturated you know so I

uh full are they saturated you know so I uh full are they saturated you know so I think all of that um and you know that's

think all of that um and you know that's think all of that um and you know that's sort of thing that you have those sort of thing that you have those sort of thing that you have those discussions and that sets up the next

discussions and that sets up the next discussions and that sets up the next year right that should set the direction

year right that should set the direction year right that should set the direction so I think those are a couple of things so I think those are a couple of things so I think those are a couple of things I thought about when we when I saw that

I thought about when we when I saw that I thought about when we when I saw that question yeah it's I I think inventory

question yeah it's I I think inventory question yeah it's I I think inventory is profound on both sides of the fence

is profound on both sides of the fence is profound on both sides of the fence one where you already have the inventory

one where you already have the inventory one where you already have the inventory defined but imagine being able to use

defined but imagine being able to use defined but imagine being able to use some sort of inventory CMS that says hey

some sort of inventory CMS that says hey some sort of inventory CMS that says hey would you consider a newsletter does it

would you consider a newsletter does it would you consider a newsletter does it make sense for your business and if if

make sense for your business and if if make sense for your business and if if so how much more Revenue could you

so how much more Revenue could you so how much more Revenue could you generate and then imagine adding that

generate and then imagine adding that generate and then imagine adding that because I mean i' I've run into a lot of

because I mean i' I've run into a lot of because I mean i' I've run into a lot of Affiliates sites I'm like you're missing Affiliates sites I'm like you're missing Affiliates sites I'm like you're missing a newsletter you're missing on an a newsletter you're missing on an a newsletter you're missing on an opportunity to capture what you've

opportunity to capture what you've opportunity to capture what you've already taken advantage of from Google

already taken advantage of from Google already taken advantage of from Google and the second you lose Google it's like

and the second you lose Google it's like and the second you lose Google it's like we've had a drop in Google traffic in

we've had a drop in Google traffic in we've had a drop in Google traffic in the past and the newsletter saved our

the past and the newsletter saved our the past and the newsletter saved our life in that case you're you're right

life in that case you're you're right life in that case you're you're right the sort of drisking drisking revenue

the sort of drisking drisking revenue the sort of drisking drisking revenue streams or part that's partner streams

streams or part that's partner streams streams or part that's partner streams crucial right and if you can layer on

crucial right and if you can layer on crucial right and if you can layer on top of that some um positive Roi

top of that some um positive Roi top of that some um positive Roi Performance Marketing newsletters as

Performance Marketing newsletters as Performance Marketing newsletters as program like the other Revenue students

program like the other Revenue students program like the other Revenue students you've got a much more robust business

you've got a much more robust business you've got a much more robust business that um as you say can roll with the

that um as you say can roll with the that um as you say can roll with the punches of of Google

punches of of Google punches of of Google changes I've got more questions but

changes I've got more questions but changes I've got more questions but we're we're out of time and uh I'll

we're we're out of time and uh I'll we're we're out of time and uh I'll either ask them um off record or maybe

either ask them um off record or maybe either ask them um off record or maybe we' got another opportunity for another

we' got another opportunity for another we' got another opportunity for another podcast Ben thanks a lot for doing this

podcast Ben thanks a lot for doing this podcast Ben thanks a lot for doing this I think uh I definitely need to have I think uh I definitely need to have I think uh I definitely need to have more uh finance and revops people on

more uh finance and revops people on more uh finance and revops people on here I think it's uh I think it's uh one

here I think it's uh I think it's uh one here I think it's uh I think it's uh one part of the industry not talk about

part of the industry not talk about part of the industry not talk about enough yet in affiliate marketing so how

enough yet in affiliate marketing so how enough yet in affiliate marketing so how can people get a hold of

can people get a hold of can people get a hold of you uh just hit me up on LinkedIn that's

you uh just hit me up on LinkedIn that's you uh just hit me up on LinkedIn that's that's the best way I'm always happy to

that's the best way I'm always happy to that's the best way I'm always happy to chat um or or talk about these problems

chat um or or talk about these problems chat um or or talk about these problems so yeah just um LinkedIn message and

so yeah just um LinkedIn message and so yeah just um LinkedIn message and that'll be included in the show notes uh

that'll be included in the show notes uh that'll be included in the show notes uh Ben thanks a lot for doing this I

Ben thanks a lot for doing this I Ben thanks a lot for doing this I appreciate it

appreciate it appreciate it AB thank you for tuning in to the

AB thank you for tuning in to the AB thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take

affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

this time to ask for a small favor to this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you

leave a rating and review wherever you leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us

listen to your podcast that helps us listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in

expand our reach to rank higher in expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more

podcast directories and reach more podcast directories and reach more listeners