Lily Ray: Growing affiliate sites beyond Google algorithm updates

this is where the internet is going if this is where the internet is going if you look at the Tik Tok generation they

you look at the Tik Tok generation they you look at the Tik Tok generation they like looking at other people they would

like looking at other people they would like looking at other people they would much rather follow a person talking

much rather follow a person talking much rather follow a person talking about their favorite pair of jeans then

about their favorite pair of jeans then about their favorite pair of jeans then go on Google and type what are the best

go on Google and type what are the best go on Google and type what are the best jeans you know and then have a brand

jeans you know and then have a brand jeans you know and then have a brand tell them which jeans to buy like they

tell them which jeans to buy like they tell them which jeans to buy like they people like people so um maybe if you

people like people so um maybe if you people like people so um maybe if you feel uncomfortable on video there's

feel uncomfortable on video there's feel uncomfortable on video there's someone you can work with to help you do

someone you can work with to help you do someone you can work with to help you do that part of the business right you know

that part of the business right you know that part of the business right you know I always I'm always talking about like I always I'm always talking about like I always I'm always talking about like Brands these days should be thinking

Brands these days should be thinking Brands these days should be thinking about having in-house cultural

about having in-house cultural about having in-house cultural evangelists or Representatives that are

evangelists or Representatives that are evangelists or Representatives that are people that know how to build a people that know how to build a people that know how to build a following on a personal level that following on a personal level that following on a personal level that represent the

represent the represent the brand I'm John Wright and you're

brand I'm John Wright and you're brand I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

podcast brought to you by podcast brought to you by sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast

sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Lily Ray who

today we're chatting with Lily Ray who today we're chatting with Lily Ray who is the vice president of SEO strategy

is the vice president of SEO strategy is the vice president of SEO strategy and research at amiv uh she's been in

and research at amiv uh she's been in and research at amiv uh she's been in the SEO space for I think over 10 years

the SEO space for I think over 10 years the SEO space for I think over 10 years she's also a DJ and she's very active on

she's also a DJ and she's very active on she's also a DJ and she's very active on Twitter X LinkedIn posting frequently

Twitter X LinkedIn posting frequently Twitter X LinkedIn posting frequently about SEO and affiliate sites so I think

about SEO and affiliate sites so I think about SEO and affiliate sites so I think we've got the right person for the we've got the right person for the we've got the right person for the podcast Lily welcome to the show thanks

podcast Lily welcome to the show thanks podcast Lily welcome to the show thanks so much for having me so I'm G to get

so much for having me so I'm G to get so much for having me so I'm G to get into it where in the past six months

into it where in the past six months into it where in the past six months I've been paying attention to your I've been paying attention to your I've been paying attention to your account and also from Glenn alsup uh

account and also from Glenn alsup uh account and also from Glenn alsup uh where both of you discuss discuss like

where both of you discuss discuss like where both of you discuss discuss like the the disruption in SEO and affiliate

the the disruption in SEO and affiliate the the disruption in SEO and affiliate sites so I want to kind of get your your

sites so I want to kind of get your your sites so I want to kind of get your your big picture overview what do you see as

big picture overview what do you see as big picture overview what do you see as the takeaway of uh what's happening in

the takeaway of uh what's happening in the takeaway of uh what's happening in the marketplace and maybe what are some

the marketplace and maybe what are some the marketplace and maybe what are some of the Overlook insights for affiliate

of the Overlook insights for affiliate of the Overlook insights for affiliate sites and e-commerce

sites and e-commerce sites and e-commerce sites well affiliate and e-commerce are

sites well affiliate and e-commerce are sites well affiliate and e-commerce are facing two kind of different situations

facing two kind of different situations facing two kind of different situations in general I would say as far as SEO is

in general I would say as far as SEO is in general I would say as far as SEO is concerned um I think past two years have

concerned um I think past two years have concerned um I think past two years have been some of the most difficult years

been some of the most difficult years been some of the most difficult years for affiliate sites on Google in Google

for affiliate sites on Google in Google for affiliate sites on Google in Google search um Google has launched a variety

search um Google has launched a variety search um Google has launched a variety of different algorithm updates and

of different algorithm updates and of different algorithm updates and changes and new

changes and new changes and new initiatives that the outcome of many of

initiatives that the outcome of many of initiatives that the outcome of many of them seems to be the reduction in

them seems to be the reduction in them seems to be the reduction in visibility for lots of affiliate sites

visibility for lots of affiliate sites visibility for lots of affiliate sites that's I think honestly probably one of

that's I think honestly probably one of that's I think honestly probably one of the main takeaways as far as like if I

the main takeaways as far as like if I the main takeaways as far as like if I were to summarize everything that were to summarize everything that were to summarize everything that happened in the SEO space in the last

happened in the SEO space in the last happened in the SEO space in the last three years I think that's top five

three years I think that's top five three years I think that's top five biggest changes that has happened um

biggest changes that has happened um biggest changes that has happened um e-commerce is different because it seems

e-commerce is different because it seems e-commerce is different because it seems like eCommerce sites that sell their own

like eCommerce sites that sell their own like eCommerce sites that sell their own products or sell products in general you

products or sell products in general you products or sell products in general you know if you have the capability of of

know if you have the capability of of know if you have the capability of of selling and buying the product on that

selling and buying the product on that selling and buying the product on that actual website uh they seem to be a bit

actual website uh they seem to be a bit actual website uh they seem to be a bit more immune to some of the types of

more immune to some of the types of more immune to some of the types of algorithmic changes that Google's been

algorithmic changes that Google's been algorithmic changes that Google's been rolling out now that's not to say that rolling out now that's not to say that rolling out now that's not to say that there aren't other SEO challenges that

there aren't other SEO challenges that there aren't other SEO challenges that those sites have but it seems to be the

those sites have but it seems to be the those sites have but it seems to be the case that Google has reduced the

case that Google has reduced the case that Google has reduced the visibility of lots of sites that purely

visibility of lots of sites that purely visibility of lots of sites that purely exist for affiliate purposes so I guess

exist for affiliate purposes so I guess exist for affiliate purposes so I guess you could kind of dive in deeper to say

you could kind of dive in deeper to say you could kind of dive in deeper to say like in an easy thing to say it's like

like in an easy thing to say it's like like in an easy thing to say it's like productize your affili site but I don't

productize your affili site but I don't productize your affili site but I don't think that's the simple I mean I think

think that's the simple I mean I think think that's the simple I mean I think on the larger scale we have perfect

on the larger scale we have perfect on the larger scale we have perfect examples of companies that have so much

examples of companies that have so much examples of companies that have so much money like nerd wallet they basically

money like nerd wallet they basically money like nerd wallet they basically buy their own Finance Agency so when

buy their own Finance Agency so when buy their own Finance Agency so when you're looking for business loans sure

you're looking for business loans sure you're looking for business loans sure they got the business calculator like they got the business calculator like they got the business calculator like they had before but now when they take

they had before but now when they take they had before but now when they take you to the next product which is

you to the next product which is you to the next product which is actually getting the business loan actually getting the business loan actually getting the business loan that's now owned by nerd wallet so I

that's now owned by nerd wallet so I that's now owned by nerd wallet so I think this is probably what you're think this is probably what you're think this is probably what you're seeing seeing seeing happening well that's one potential way

happening well that's one potential way happening well that's one potential way to kind of solve the problem of of being

to kind of solve the problem of of being to kind of solve the problem of of being a site that only exists for you know one

a site that only exists for you know one a site that only exists for you know one reason which is to refer business to

reason which is to refer business to reason which is to refer business to another site but Google is very

another site but Google is very another site but Google is very sophisticated and Google figures out

sophisticated and Google figures out sophisticated and Google figures out these um different ways that people

these um different ways that people these um different ways that people might try to solve these problems and if

might try to solve these problems and if might try to solve these problems and if Google Google's algorithms determine

Google Google's algorithms determine Google Google's algorithms determine over time that this is also not a good

over time that this is also not a good over time that this is also not a good experience for users experience for users experience for users it doesn't mean that you get to just

it doesn't mean that you get to just it doesn't mean that you get to just check the box and say okay we fixed

check the box and say okay we fixed check the box and say okay we fixed everything our SEO is great again

everything our SEO is great again everything our SEO is great again because it's constantly evolving and the

because it's constantly evolving and the because it's constantly evolving and the thing about these industries is as you

thing about these industries is as you thing about these industries is as you know you know when when something

know you know when when something know you know when when something becomes popular and something becomes uh

becomes popular and something becomes uh becomes popular and something becomes uh a case study for what works everyone

a case study for what works everyone a case study for what works everyone jumps in the bandwagon and tries to do

jumps in the bandwagon and tries to do jumps in the bandwagon and tries to do the same thing so then it becomes even

the same thing so then it becomes even the same thing so then it becomes even easier for Google and the other search

easier for Google and the other search easier for Google and the other search engines to kind of like reverse engineer

engines to kind of like reverse engineer engines to kind of like reverse engineer what's happening there and maybe factor

what's happening there and maybe factor what's happening there and maybe factor that into future algorithm updates so

that into future algorithm updates so that into future algorithm updates so unfortunately you know a lot of this the

unfortunately you know a lot of this the unfortunately you know a lot of this the reduction that we're seeing the reduction that we're seeing the reduction that we're seeing the visibility of these sites the reduction

visibility of these sites the reduction visibility of these sites the reduction that they're seeing um it's it's a

that they're seeing um it's it's a that they're seeing um it's it's a difficult problem to solve it's usually difficult problem to solve it's usually difficult problem to solve it's usually not solved by any type of Silver Bullet

not solved by any type of Silver Bullet not solved by any type of Silver Bullet so what would you say would be your

so what would you say would be your so what would you say would be your advice to new Affiliates that are pretty

advice to new Affiliates that are pretty advice to new Affiliates that are pretty much like either getting started or onee

much like either getting started or onee much like either getting started or onee in knowing what you've seen in the past

in knowing what you've seen in the past in knowing what you've seen in the past like I'm assuming that the general

like I'm assuming that the general like I'm assuming that the general takeaway and it it's kind of like a

takeaway and it it's kind of like a takeaway and it it's kind of like a cheap comment it's like just be better

cheap comment it's like just be better cheap comment it's like just be better like be better than just the information

like be better than just the information like be better than just the information site yeah yes and I I think um that's

site yeah yes and I I think um that's site yeah yes and I I think um that's that's definitely the advice that I that's definitely the advice that I that's definitely the advice that I would give um but it goes It goes really

would give um but it goes It goes really would give um but it goes It goes really beyond that

beyond that beyond that there's different algorithms that Google

there's different algorithms that Google there's different algorithms that Google has launched where it seems like the

has launched where it seems like the has launched where it seems like the coal has been to identify all the sites

coal has been to identify all the sites coal has been to identify all the sites that are doing some type of

that are doing some type of that are doing some type of like you know

like you know like you know lazy uh SEO strategy and I I don't mean

lazy uh SEO strategy and I I don't mean lazy uh SEO strategy and I I don't mean to like group a lot of people that are

to like group a lot of people that are to like group a lot of people that are actually spending a lot time in their actually spending a lot time in their actually spending a lot time in their SEO like I don't mean to call them lazy

SEO like I don't mean to call them lazy SEO like I don't mean to call them lazy but there are a lot of sites that are

but there are a lot of sites that are but there are a lot of sites that are doing this in a somewhat lazy way like

doing this in a somewhat lazy way like doing this in a somewhat lazy way like maybe they're using AI to maybe they're using AI to maybe they're using AI to programmatically generate many many new

programmatically generate many many new programmatically generate many many new pages and they're just throwing pages and they're just throwing pages and they're just throwing affiliate links everywhere based on

affiliate links everywhere based on affiliate links everywhere based on whatever likes bring them the highest

whatever likes bring them the highest whatever likes bring them the highest commissions now that's kind of what I

commissions now that's kind of what I commissions now that's kind of what I mean when I say lazy there's a lot of

mean when I say lazy there's a lot of mean when I say lazy there's a lot of sites that are doing things really well

sites that are doing things really well sites that are doing things really well the problem is that if Google creates

the problem is that if Google creates the problem is that if Google creates algorithmic systems to identify you know

algorithmic systems to identify you know algorithmic systems to identify you know group a but for whatever reason Google's

group a but for whatever reason Google's group a but for whatever reason Google's systems are not sophisticated enough to

systems are not sophisticated enough to systems are not sophisticated enough to differentiate between A and B now you

differentiate between A and B now you differentiate between A and B now you have a lot of people in B who are trying have a lot of people in B who are trying have a lot of people in B who are trying to do the right thing who are getting to do the right thing who are getting to do the right thing who are getting grouped into those algorithm updates and

grouped into those algorithm updates and grouped into those algorithm updates and they're getting hit I think right now

they're getting hit I think right now they're getting hit I think right now we're starting to see Google reverse a

we're starting to see Google reverse a we're starting to see Google reverse a little bit of that because maybe they little bit of that because maybe they little bit of that because maybe they went too far but to your point it's not

went too far but to your point it's not went too far but to your point it's not just about being better or being the

just about being better or being the just about being better or being the best it's like how can you create a site

best it's like how can you create a site best it's like how can you create a site where it doesn't look and feel like all

where it doesn't look and feel like all where it doesn't look and feel like all those other sites because it's so those other sites because it's so those other sites because it's so helpful and it's so unique and it has

helpful and it's so unique and it has helpful and it's so unique and it has all these other signals that Google all these other signals that Google all these other signals that Google looks at when it's looking for looks at when it's looking for looks at when it's looking for Meaningful websites you know if you have

Meaningful websites you know if you have Meaningful websites you know if you have an enormous social media following if

an enormous social media following if an enormous social media following if you have really good engagement metrics

you have really good engagement metrics you have really good engagement metrics if you have really good um you know ATT

if you have really good um you know ATT if you have really good um you know ATT traic diversification these are signals

traic diversification these are signals traic diversification these are signals that Google can kind of see as far as

that Google can kind of see as far as that Google can kind of see as far as like oh this is a real brand and it

like oh this is a real brand and it like oh this is a real brand and it would make Google look bad if we didn't

would make Google look bad if we didn't would make Google look bad if we didn't surface that surface that surface that content yeah that makes sense I mean I

content yeah that makes sense I mean I content yeah that makes sense I mean I look at the B2B SEO space with uh you

look at the B2B SEO space with uh you look at the B2B SEO space with uh you Glenn alup and Steve Toth and I kind of

Glenn alup and Steve Toth and I kind of Glenn alup and Steve Toth and I kind of go you you talk about certain things uh

go you you talk about certain things uh go you you talk about certain things uh that are similar but you all have your

that are similar but you all have your that are similar but you all have your own point of view and you all have your

own point of view and you all have your own point of view and you all have your own way of producing your own B2B

own way of producing your own B2B own way of producing your own B2B content and the way I look at your

content and the way I look at your content and the way I look at your content is that it's not just

content is that it's not just content is that it's not just regurgitated content that I think a lot

regurgitated content that I think a lot regurgitated content that I think a lot of seos have been doing for a long time

of seos have been doing for a long time of seos have been doing for a long time and to be honest I did that a long time

and to be honest I did that a long time and to be honest I did that a long time ago in the past I'm like I'm just going ago in the past I'm like I'm just going ago in the past I'm like I'm just going to do this basic SEO article I think you

to do this basic SEO article I think you to do this basic SEO article I think you take it to the next level and I think uh

take it to the next level and I think uh take it to the next level and I think uh those lessons from what's working for

those lessons from what's working for those lessons from what's working for you three are pretty much maybe they're

you three are pretty much maybe they're you three are pretty much maybe they're blueprints to actually say why can't we

blueprints to actually say why can't we blueprints to actually say why can't we make this happen for the Phil site it's

make this happen for the Phil site it's make this happen for the Phil site it's it it's kind of like extending what you

it it's kind of like extending what you it it's kind of like extending what you said about how to just be better but

said about how to just be better but said about how to just be better but take it to One More Level yeah yeah the

take it to One More Level yeah yeah the take it to One More Level yeah yeah the problem or the challenge these days is

problem or the challenge these days is problem or the challenge these days is that it requires much more creativity

that it requires much more creativity that it requires much more creativity than it ever has before I think a lot of

than it ever has before I think a lot of than it ever has before I think a lot of site owners in these categories tend to

site owners in these categories tend to site owners in these categories tend to operate in a way where they want SEO to

operate in a way where they want SEO to operate in a way where they want SEO to be really simple they want it to be this

be really simple they want it to be this be really simple they want it to be this checklist that they follow where they

checklist that they follow where they checklist that they follow where they can follow the blueprint from 30 other

can follow the blueprint from 30 other can follow the blueprint from 30 other people that have done it with great people that have done it with great people that have done it with great success and just repeat everything they

success and just repeat everything they success and just repeat everything they did and then see success as well those

did and then see success as well those did and then see success as well those days are over I'm sorry to say um now

days are over I'm sorry to say um now days are over I'm sorry to say um now the sites there are a small handful of

the sites there are a small handful of the sites there are a small handful of sites that I can point to that are sites that I can point to that are sites that I can point to that are affiliate sites that do product reviews

affiliate sites that do product reviews affiliate sites that do product reviews that are weathering the updates pretty

that are weathering the updates pretty that are weathering the updates pretty well um and it's a very small group of

well um and it's a very small group of well um and it's a very small group of sites but they put so much energy into

sites but they put so much energy into sites but they put so much energy into the content that they're not following

the content that they're not following the content that they're not following any blueprint they're spending tons of

any blueprint they're spending tons of any blueprint they're spending tons of time testing products putting ample

time testing products putting ample time testing products putting ample evidence all over the site that they evidence all over the site that they evidence all over the site that they tested the products and even then some

tested the products and even then some tested the products and even then some of those sites get hit by algorithm of those sites get hit by algorithm of those sites get hit by algorithm updates um but usually they don't get

updates um but usually they don't get updates um but usually they don't get hit in a very significant way they kind

hit in a very significant way they kind hit in a very significant way they kind of go up and down over time and

of go up and down over time and of go up and down over time and generally go generally go generally go up I'll I'll I'll share that comment to

up I'll I'll I'll share that comment to up I'll I'll I'll share that comment to a few people that I know are doing

a few people that I know are doing a few people that I know are doing exactly what you say but still haven't

exactly what you say but still haven't exactly what you say but still haven't really fully recovered yet where they

really fully recovered yet where they really fully recovered yet where they have amazing amazing detailed product

have amazing amazing detailed product have amazing amazing detailed product review sites I think their their I think

review sites I think their their I think review sites I think their their I think their expression of authority isn't

their expression of authority isn't their expression of authority isn't being pushed through like you're not being pushed through like you're not being pushed through like you're not really see more of the people on behind

really see more of the people on behind really see more of the people on behind the scenes of those actual reviews and

the scenes of those actual reviews and the scenes of those actual reviews and going well is there a community behind

going well is there a community behind going well is there a community behind this or is there a single author that is

this or is there a single author that is this or is there a single author that is so passionate about this like that's

so passionate about this like that's so passionate about this like that's actually what they have for Content but

actually what they have for Content but actually what they have for Content but you wouldn't know it from just looking you wouldn't know it from just looking you wouldn't know it from just looking at the page that's the thing and that's

at the page that's the thing and that's at the page that's the thing and that's actually um ties back to what I've

actually um ties back to what I've actually um ties back to what I've mostly been speaking and writing about

mostly been speaking and writing about mostly been speaking and writing about in the SEO space before I spoke a lot

in the SEO space before I spoke a lot in the SEO space before I spoke a lot about affiliate sites and product review

about affiliate sites and product review about affiliate sites and product review sit and everything like that I've been sit and everything like that I've been sit and everything like that I've been very focused on this concept of eat

very focused on this concept of eat very focused on this concept of eat expertise experience Authority and Trust

expertise experience Authority and Trust expertise experience Authority and Trust um I said that backwards experience

um I said that backwards experience um I said that backwards experience expertise Authority interest but the

expertise Authority interest but the expertise Authority interest but the takeaway from that is Google has been

takeaway from that is Google has been takeaway from that is Google has been very focused for the last let's say six

very focused for the last let's say six very focused for the last let's say six or seven years on who who are the people

or seven years on who who are the people or seven years on who who are the people behind this website how can we how much

behind this website how can we how much behind this website how can we how much can we trust them and how much can we trust them and how much can we trust them and how much experience and Authority do they have

experience and Authority do they have experience and Authority do they have and it matters more or less in different

and it matters more or less in different and it matters more or less in different categories and there's a lot of debates categories and there's a lot of debates categories and there's a lot of debates about how much Google uses it these days

about how much Google uses it these days about how much Google uses it these days but I think it's fair to say that one

but I think it's fair to say that one but I think it's fair to say that one consistent outcome of all these updates

consistent outcome of all these updates consistent outcome of all these updates and One Direction that Google's been

and One Direction that Google's been and One Direction that Google's been going in recent years and Bing as well

going in recent years and Bing as well going in recent years and Bing as well Bing actually says this is quite Bing actually says this is quite Bing actually says this is quite important to them is transparency and

important to them is transparency and important to them is transparency and who's behind the website and if you

who's behind the website and if you who's behind the website and if you focus on building your personal brand

focus on building your personal brand focus on building your personal brand and your personal brand is closely

and your personal brand is closely and your personal brand is closely affiliated with reviewing running shoes

affiliated with reviewing running shoes affiliated with reviewing running shoes or whatever it is that you're known for

or whatever it is that you're known for or whatever it is that you're known for that's something that that stands the

that's something that that stands the that's something that that stands the test of time and that Google likes to

test of time and that Google likes to test of time and that Google likes to elevate Google likes people so if you're

elevate Google likes people so if you're elevate Google likes people so if you're person that's known for that whatever it

person that's known for that whatever it person that's known for that whatever it is that you're writing about that's

is that you're writing about that's is that you're writing about that's something that can potentially protect something that can potentially protect something that can potentially protect you from algorithm updates I think that

you from algorithm updates I think that you from algorithm updates I think that ties in well with my next question which

ties in well with my next question which ties in well with my next question which is I used to run and create B Toc

is I used to run and create B Toc is I used to run and create B Toc affiliate sites as well as B2B I I now

affiliate sites as well as B2B I I now affiliate sites as well as B2B I I now focus on B2B but now as a SAS company um

focus on B2B but now as a SAS company um focus on B2B but now as a SAS company um one thing that I've discovered it's like one thing that I've discovered it's like one thing that I've discovered it's like how do I get my marketing message across

how do I get my marketing message across how do I get my marketing message across to my uh my ICP and one thing that I've

to my uh my ICP and one thing that I've to my uh my ICP and one thing that I've been doing with some success is focusing

been doing with some success is focusing been doing with some success is focusing on bot of funnel content where it's like

on bot of funnel content where it's like on bot of funnel content where it's like I'm going so deep and really talking to

I'm going so deep and really talking to I'm going so deep and really talking to the user and I've actually kind of like

the user and I've actually kind of like the user and I've actually kind of like mapped out who are my users and I think

mapped out who are my users and I think mapped out who are my users and I think a lot of sites don't do that would you

a lot of sites don't do that would you a lot of sites don't do that would you say that that's maybe like a missing

say that that's maybe like a missing say that that's maybe like a missing playbook for most affiliate sites today

playbook for most affiliate sites today playbook for most affiliate sites today and ones that are success successful

and ones that are success successful and ones that are success successful actually have that sort of bottom of

actually have that sort of bottom of actually have that sort of bottom of funnel mindset to say hey we're gonna

funnel mindset to say hey we're gonna funnel mindset to say hey we're gonna we're gonna identify you and we're going we're gonna identify you and we're going we're gonna identify you and we're going to talk to you because we think we know

to talk to you because we think we know to talk to you because we think we know what you're looking for yeah I mean I

what you're looking for yeah I mean I what you're looking for yeah I mean I think that's probably a better way to

think that's probably a better way to think that's probably a better way to spend your time these days because now

spend your time these days because now spend your time these days because now you're talking about improving

you're talking about improving you're talking about improving conversions improving engagement you

conversions improving engagement you conversions improving engagement you know building an audience like all these

know building an audience like all these know building an audience like all these things that are important for your

things that are important for your things that are important for your business important for your brand and

business important for your brand and business important for your brand and it's not you know like looking for cheap

it's not you know like looking for cheap it's not you know like looking for cheap exploits that could potentially bring

exploits that could potentially bring exploits that could potentially bring you more top of funnel traffic where

you more top of funnel traffic where you more top of funnel traffic where that that opportunity is slipping away

that that opportunity is slipping away that that opportunity is slipping away like that there's less and less

like that there's less and less like that there's less and less opportunity up there and not to mention

opportunity up there and not to mention opportunity up there and not to mention you know aside from whatever changes

you know aside from whatever changes you know aside from whatever changes Google's doing with its algorithms we

Google's doing with its algorithms we Google's doing with its algorithms we have ai overviews now like we have

have ai overviews now like we have have ai overviews now like we have different ways that Google just answers

different ways that Google just answers different ways that Google just answers top of funnel questions

top of funnel questions top of funnel questions itself um or maybe they're looking for

itself um or maybe they're looking for itself um or maybe they're looking for that information on Tik Tok or whatever

that information on Tik Tok or whatever that information on Tik Tok or whatever it is like yeah focusing on bottom of

it is like yeah focusing on bottom of it is like yeah focusing on bottom of the funnel and really understanding your the funnel and really understanding your the funnel and really understanding your audience and your customer I think is a

audience and your customer I think is a audience and your customer I think is a much better use of your time than trying

much better use of your time than trying much better use of your time than trying to capture everybody and would you say

to capture everybody and would you say to capture everybody and would you say that with top of funnel where obviously

that with top of funnel where obviously that with top of funnel where obviously an AI overview could basically be your

an AI overview could basically be your an AI overview could basically be your answer to that maybe it'd be better to

answer to that maybe it'd be better to answer to that maybe it'd be better to kind of have more like video content to

kind of have more like video content to kind of have more like video content to say hey I'm so and so and maybe you

say hey I'm so and so and maybe you say hey I'm so and so and maybe you create uh not just top tople funnel

create uh not just top tople funnel create uh not just top tople funnel content but maybe like series of that so

content but maybe like series of that so content but maybe like series of that so it's kind of like you know kind of like

it's kind of like you know kind of like it's kind of like you know kind of like a entities suround it yeah 100% I mean I

a entities suround it yeah 100% I mean I a entities suround it yeah 100% I mean I I would say YouTube is like a cheat code

I would say YouTube is like a cheat code I would say YouTube is like a cheat code for SEO right now because I mean it's

for SEO right now because I mean it's for SEO right now because I mean it's not secret but

not secret but not secret but like if you make a really great video

like if you make a really great video like if you make a really great video that has really great engagement lots of

that has really great engagement lots of that has really great engagement lots of views and whatever engagement metrics

views and whatever engagement metrics views and whatever engagement metrics YouTube and Google look at um Google

YouTube and Google look at um Google YouTube and Google look at um Google loves serving YouTube so if your site is

loves serving YouTube so if your site is loves serving YouTube so if your site is struggling and you take a lot of the

struggling and you take a lot of the struggling and you take a lot of the great information that you have on your great information that you have on your great information that you have on your site and you repurpose that as YouTube

site and you repurpose that as YouTube site and you repurpose that as YouTube video the likelihood of that being

video the likelihood of that being video the likelihood of that being served across Google servfaces is much

served across Google servfaces is much served across Google servfaces is much higher than your website so you might

higher than your website so you might higher than your website so you might have tons of views coming from Google

have tons of views coming from Google have tons of views coming from Google discover because Google discover loves discover because Google discover loves discover because Google discover loves to show YouTube content um Google embeds

to show YouTube content um Google embeds to show YouTube content um Google embeds YouTube videos in the results for

YouTube videos in the results for YouTube videos in the results for extremely high volume queries uh there's

extremely high volume queries uh there's extremely high volume queries uh there's now short video carousels where Google I

now short video carousels where Google I now short video carousels where Google I mean Google's now pulling like your

mean Google's now pulling like your mean Google's now pulling like your Instagram reels directly into the search

Instagram reels directly into the search Instagram reels directly into the search results so

results so results so yeah as much as it's like we say it over

yeah as much as it's like we say it over yeah as much as it's like we say it over and over again in the SEO space right and over again in the SEO space right and over again in the SEO space right now and um making videos and splicing up

now and um making videos and splicing up now and um making videos and splicing up those videos into short videos is one of

those videos into short videos is one of those videos into short videos is one of the biggest SEO opportunities right so

the biggest SEO opportunities right so the biggest SEO opportunities right so taking like one year of starting with

taking like one year of starting with taking like one year of starting with the helpful content update on a lot of

the helpful content update on a lot of the helpful content update on a lot of different uh updates with Google would

different uh updates with Google would different uh updates with Google would you say that the bigger sites like the

you say that the bigger sites like the you say that the bigger sites like the the mega affiliate groups and the media

the mega affiliate groups and the media the mega affiliate groups and the media companies have benefited the most or

companies have benefited the most or companies have benefited the most or would you say everyone's kind of scared

would you say everyone's kind of scared would you say everyone's kind of scared in terms of like all kind of on edge

in terms of like all kind of on edge in terms of like all kind of on edge where some of these companies have lost

where some of these companies have lost where some of these companies have lost a lot of uh Edge and my question is I

a lot of uh Edge and my question is I a lot of uh Edge and my question is I hear from a lot of Affiliates that they hear from a lot of Affiliates that they hear from a lot of Affiliates that they get this feeling that if you haven't

get this feeling that if you haven't get this feeling that if you haven't made a lot of money and you've got money made a lot of money and you've got money made a lot of money and you've got money in the bank to be able to buy your own

in the bank to be able to buy your own in the bank to be able to buy your own SEO team and have like the money to to

SEO team and have like the money to to SEO team and have like the money to to get resources is it too late to be an

affiliate well we're in the middle of a affiliate well we're in the middle of a pretty significant Google algorithm

pretty significant Google algorithm pretty significant Google algorithm update right now um I think a lot of

update right now um I think a lot of update right now um I think a lot of people in the I at space we're waiting

people in the I at space we're waiting people in the I at space we're waiting for this update for a long time and it's

for this update for a long time and it's for this update for a long time and it's the helpful content update I mean Google

the helpful content update I mean Google the helpful content update I mean Google hasn't called this core update the

hasn't called this core update the hasn't called this core update the helpful content update it doesn't it

helpful content update it doesn't it helpful content update it doesn't it doesn't have its own update name anymore

doesn't have its own update name anymore doesn't have its own update name anymore or its own ranking system anymore which

or its own ranking system anymore which or its own ranking system anymore which it used to but we're in the middle of a

it used to but we're in the middle of a it used to but we're in the middle of a significant Google core update that to

significant Google core update that to significant Google core update that to answer your question has reversed this

answer your question has reversed this answer your question has reversed this trend a bit for a lot of sites that have

trend a bit for a lot of sites that have trend a bit for a lot of sites that have been negatively impacted and the reason

been negatively impacted and the reason been negatively impacted and the reason I think this is so important is I don't

I think this is so important is I don't I think this is so important is I don't know that it necessarily changes the

know that it necessarily changes the know that it necessarily changes the overall landscape too much but what it

overall landscape too much but what it overall landscape too much but what it does is It's seems to be lifting this

does is It's seems to be lifting this does is It's seems to be lifting this like people call it a shadow band Google

like people call it a shadow band Google like people call it a shadow band Google would never call it that but there was would never call it that but there was would never call it that but there was something suppressing these sites ever

something suppressing these sites ever something suppressing these sites ever since the September 2023 helpful content

since the September 2023 helpful content since the September 2023 helpful content update that Google seems to have

update that Google seems to have update that Google seems to have retweaked in some way that these sites

retweaked in some way that these sites retweaked in some way that these sites are now some of them are getting their are now some of them are getting their are now some of them are getting their visibility back I think that's important

visibility back I think that's important visibility back I think that's important because if there is some type of weight

because if there is some type of weight because if there is some type of weight that they've applied maybe now there's

that they've applied maybe now there's that they've applied maybe now there's more opportunity because there's less more opportunity because there's less more opportunity because there's less weight down sites or maybe new sites

weight down sites or maybe new sites weight down sites or maybe new sites that enter the Market aren't going to be that enter the Market aren't going to be that enter the Market aren't going to be weighed down in the same ways I don't

weighed down in the same ways I don't weighed down in the same ways I don't know exactly how they changed their know exactly how they changed their know exactly how they changed their algorithms but I think they might have

algorithms but I think they might have algorithms but I think they might have reversed a little bit because they they

reversed a little bit because they they reversed a little bit because they they went a little bit too far another thing

went a little bit too far another thing went a little bit too far another thing we don't know is like um you know

we don't know is like um you know we don't know is like um you know Google's made really significant changes

Google's made really significant changes Google's made really significant changes in the last year where now Reddit and

in the last year where now Reddit and in the last year where now Reddit and Kora are like the biggest winners in

Kora are like the biggest winners in Kora are like the biggest winners in 2024 RIT especially they're ranking for

2024 RIT especially they're ranking for 2024 RIT especially they're ranking for seemingly everything on the internet in

seemingly everything on the internet in seemingly everything on the internet in top positions and we need time to see

top positions and we need time to see top positions and we need time to see how the average Google Searcher feels

how the average Google Searcher feels how the average Google Searcher feels about that um you know in 202 for

about that um you know in 202 for about that um you know in 202 for reddits only grown but it could be the

reddits only grown but it could be the reddits only grown but it could be the case that we start hearing in 2025

case that we start hearing in 2025 case that we start hearing in 2025 everyone's sick and tired of using everyone's sick and tired of using everyone's sick and tired of using Google because they feel like it's a Google because they feel like it's a Google because they feel like it's a redit search engine and they're like

redit search engine and they're like redit search engine and they're like bring back bring back the sites that

bring back bring back the sites that bring back bring back the sites that were doing all these great reviews where were doing all these great reviews where were doing all these great reviews where did those go so the these things are dyn

did those go so the these things are dyn did those go so the these things are dyn dynamic they can change over time yeah I

dynamic they can change over time yeah I dynamic they can change over time yeah I agree I mean I kind of laugh at that

agree I mean I kind of laugh at that agree I mean I kind of laugh at that because I know I use Google for a lot of

because I know I use Google for a lot of because I know I use Google for a lot of Reddit searches it's like I just feel

Reddit searches it's like I just feel Reddit searches it's like I just feel like Reddit quite often when I'm looking

like Reddit quite often when I'm looking like Reddit quite often when I'm looking for something very specific I would put

for something very specific I would put for something very specific I would put that search term and then I'll put that search term and then I'll put that search term and then I'll put Reddit on there because I'm actually Reddit on there because I'm actually Reddit on there because I'm actually looking for the Reddit and I actually

looking for the Reddit and I actually looking for the Reddit and I actually believe Google has a better search

believe Google has a better search believe Google has a better search engine than Reddit does for helping me

engine than Reddit does for helping me engine than Reddit does for helping me find what I want well what you just said

find what I want well what you just said find what I want well what you just said was something that has been said by I

was something that has been said by I was something that has been said by I mean I've personally read it like maybe

mean I've personally read it like maybe mean I've personally read it like maybe thousands of times and Google clearly

thousands of times and Google clearly thousands of times and Google clearly read it or saw it in the data probably

read it or saw it in the data probably read it or saw it in the data probably millions of times which is why they made

millions of times which is why they made millions of times which is why they made these changes right they understand these changes right they understand these changes right they understand people are looking for it they people are looking for it they people are looking for it they understand it's super helpful authentic

understand it's super helpful authentic understand it's super helpful authentic content I just wonder if they didn't go

content I just wonder if they didn't go content I just wonder if they didn't go a bit too far with these

a bit too far with these a bit too far with these changes uh so I wonder reverse engineer

changes uh so I wonder reverse engineer changes uh so I wonder reverse engineer this uh Google mess that we have today

this uh Google mess that we have today this uh Google mess that we have today and just kind of go back I think you've

and just kind of go back I think you've and just kind of go back I think you've already said a lot of these things in

already said a lot of these things in already said a lot of these things in different bits and pieces but what would

different bits and pieces but what would different bits and pieces but what would your Evergreen content strategy be for

your Evergreen content strategy be for your Evergreen content strategy be for an affiliate site or any sort of hobby

an affiliate site or any sort of hobby an affiliate site or any sort of hobby site well you know I think the days of

site well you know I think the days of site well you know I think the days of relying on SEO tools to do the thinking

relying on SEO tools to do the thinking relying on SEO tools to do the thinking for you which probably shouldn't have

for you which probably shouldn't have for you which probably shouldn't have ever been doing in the first place and I

ever been doing in the first place and I ever been doing in the first place and I say that as an SEO professional but like

say that as an SEO professional but like say that as an SEO professional but like doing this in a way where it's like okay

doing this in a way where it's like okay doing this in a way where it's like okay let me put this keyword into this SEO

let me put this keyword into this SEO let me put this keyword into this SEO tool and see what the SEO tool tells me

tool and see what the SEO tool tells me tool and see what the SEO tool tells me to write about and use this other SEO

to write about and use this other SEO to write about and use this other SEO tool it's going to automate the article

tool it's going to automate the article tool it's going to automate the article with AI and use this other SEO tool to

with AI and use this other SEO tool to with AI and use this other SEO tool to tell me which links to add and all this

tell me which links to add and all this tell me which links to add and all this stuff that's automated and you're just

stuff that's automated and you're just stuff that's automated and you're just kind of sitting back and hoping that the

kind of sitting back and hoping that the kind of sitting back and hoping that the tools do all the work for you and then

tools do all the work for you and then tools do all the work for you and then you build out a website that looks and

you build out a website that looks and you build out a website that looks and feels exactly like all the other people feels exactly like all the other people feels exactly like all the other people that have started a website about that have started a website about that have started a website about traveling to New York City or whatever

traveling to New York City or whatever traveling to New York City or whatever it is those days are over um I recommend

it is those days are over um I recommend it is those days are over um I recommend recommend that people do it the opposite

recommend that people do it the opposite recommend that people do it the opposite way way way where maybe you don't just buy a domain

where maybe you don't just buy a domain where maybe you don't just buy a domain name because it's available and you can name because it's available and you can name because it's available and you can afford it and then you suddenly become

afford it and then you suddenly become afford it and then you suddenly become the experts on whatever it is that you

the experts on whatever it is that you the experts on whatever it is that you just bought you know focus on something

just bought you know focus on something just bought you know focus on something you are truly passionate about and write

you are truly passionate about and write you are truly passionate about and write build your content strategy and your

build your content strategy and your build your content strategy and your editorial calendar and everything based

editorial calendar and everything based editorial calendar and everything based on what you truly are passionate about

on what you truly are passionate about on what you truly are passionate about writing about or making videos about or

writing about or making videos about or writing about or making videos about or have actually spent time reviewing the

have actually spent time reviewing the have actually spent time reviewing the products like products like products like I did just like a random example on my

I did just like a random example on my I did just like a random example on my personal website at one point just to

personal website at one point just to personal website at one point just to kind of experience what it feels like to

kind of experience what it feels like to kind of experience what it feels like to write a product review article based on

write a product review article based on write a product review article based on um products that I use when I'm

um products that I use when I'm um products that I use when I'm traveling because I travel all the time

traveling because I travel all the time traveling because I travel all the time and what I what I felt during the

and what I what I felt during the and what I what I felt during the process was like I'm writing based on

process was like I'm writing based on process was like I'm writing based on you know an an anecdote about when I was

you know an an anecdote about when I was you know an an anecdote about when I was at the airport and I needed this thing

at the airport and I needed this thing at the airport and I needed this thing and this is why it's helpful I'm not

and this is why it's helpful I'm not and this is why it's helpful I'm not writing an article based on the top 10

writing an article based on the top 10 writing an article based on the top 10 trending products on Amazon what's going

trending products on Amazon what's going trending products on Amazon what's going to bring me the highest affiliate to bring me the highest affiliate to bring me the highest affiliate commissions this month

commissions this month commissions this month which a lot of people have been doing

which a lot of people have been doing which a lot of people have been doing and I think search engines can tell the

and I think search engines can tell the and I think search engines can tell the difference because the first example

difference because the first example difference because the first example where it's written with true where it's written with true where it's written with true authenticity and real experience is what

authenticity and real experience is what authenticity and real experience is what they're looking for as opposed to just

they're looking for as opposed to just they're looking for as opposed to just listing the same 10 products that listing the same 10 products that listing the same 10 products that everybody else listed yeah I I think

everybody else listed yeah I I think everybody else listed yeah I I think your example is a story people would

your example is a story people would your example is a story people would rather read and I know my own experience

rather read and I know my own experience rather read and I know my own experience of of going okay if if I've got a SAS

of of going okay if if I've got a SAS of of going okay if if I've got a SAS tool that I'm trying to be um an

tool that I'm trying to be um an tool that I'm trying to be um an authority in affiliate marketing it's h

authority in affiliate marketing it's h authority in affiliate marketing it's h what am I going to write about and the

what am I going to write about and the what am I going to write about and the more tools I use uh the more they

more tools I use uh the more they more tools I use uh the more they actually I find they don't help me like

actually I find they don't help me like actually I find they don't help me like I'm a big fan of surfer SEO uh so I I I

I'm a big fan of surfer SEO uh so I I I I'm a big fan of surfer SEO uh so I I I produce like affiliate program um like

produce like affiliate program um like produce like affiliate program um like content pieces like just generic um and

content pieces like just generic um and content pieces like just generic um and it's basically saying okay you got to do it's basically saying okay you got to do it's basically saying okay you got to do like seven 8,000 words I'm like I can do

like seven 8,000 words I'm like I can do like seven 8,000 words I'm like I can do that but what I'm trying to do very

that but what I'm trying to do very that but what I'm trying to do very intently is go well if I'm the expert in

intently is go well if I'm the expert in intently is go well if I'm the expert in Authority what have I seen in 20 years Authority what have I seen in 20 years Authority what have I seen in 20 years in affiliate marketing and when I start

in affiliate marketing and when I start in affiliate marketing and when I start writing and focusing on the stuff that's

writing and focusing on the stuff that's writing and focusing on the stuff that's not inside the ecosystem of what Surfers

not inside the ecosystem of what Surfers not inside the ecosystem of what Surfers telling me to write about um I think it

telling me to write about um I think it telling me to write about um I think it it's better and I'm actually starting to

it's better and I'm actually starting to it's better and I'm actually starting to get the rewards of those rankings and

get the rewards of those rankings and get the rewards of those rankings and you know it's just it's fun to to be on

you know it's just it's fun to to be on you know it's just it's fun to to be on that side and go okay I've relied on SEO

that side and go okay I've relied on SEO that side and go okay I've relied on SEO tools for a while but the more I I go

tools for a while but the more I I go tools for a while but the more I I go away from them uh the more I think what

away from them uh the more I think what away from them uh the more I think what you just said as a strategy is so true

you just said as a strategy is so true you just said as a strategy is so true yeah yeah it's kind of changing your way

yeah yeah it's kind of changing your way yeah yeah it's kind of changing your way of thinking you know it's it's it's

of thinking you know it's it's it's of thinking you know it's it's it's going from this literally Google calls

going from this literally Google calls going from this literally Google calls it like an SEO first mentality or like a

it like an SEO first mentality or like a it like an SEO first mentality or like a writing for search engines mentality to

writing for search engines mentality to writing for search engines mentality to a writing what you care about mentality

a writing what you care about mentality a writing what you care about mentality and of course if you could find ways to

and of course if you could find ways to and of course if you could find ways to incorporate affiliate links or whatever

incorporate affiliate links or whatever incorporate affiliate links or whatever it is that helps you make money in the

it is that helps you make money in the it is that helps you make money in the content of course do that where it

content of course do that where it content of course do that where it makees sense to do that but the more

makees sense to do that but the more makees sense to do that but the more important thing is what you talked about important thing is what you talked about important thing is what you talked about which is like what do I know about this

which is like what do I know about this which is like what do I know about this what what makes me different how do I

what what makes me different how do I what what makes me different how do I show my voice and my experience

show my voice and my experience show my voice and my experience throughout the throughout the throughout the content would you say for a larger

content would you say for a larger content would you say for a larger affiliate site that you mentioned

affiliate site that you mentioned affiliate site that you mentioned earlier that trying to put up earlier that trying to put up earlier that trying to put up personality or the people behind it

personality or the people behind it personality or the people behind it whether they own it or their actual dis

whether they own it or their actual dis whether they own it or their actual dis writers would you say it'd be wise to to

writers would you say it'd be wise to to writers would you say it'd be wise to to say okay let's try to get these authors

say okay let's try to get these authors say okay let's try to get these authors um as part of Google Knowledge panels

um as part of Google Knowledge panels um as part of Google Knowledge panels like if you're helping them as their like if you're helping them as their like if you're helping them as their individual profiles would you say that

individual profiles would you say that individual profiles would you say that kind of amplifies the Fage site

kind of amplifies the Fage site kind of amplifies the Fage site itself yeah I mean now we're going back

itself yeah I mean now we're going back itself yeah I mean now we're going back to again like like I would say 2018 2019

to again like like I would say 2018 2019 to again like like I would say 2018 2019 was when me personally I talked about e

was when me personally I talked about e was when me personally I talked about e eat at the time it was called eat now

eat at the time it was called eat now eat at the time it was called eat now it's eat talked about that every day as

it's eat talked about that every day as it's eat talked about that every day as probably the single most important SEO

probably the single most important SEO probably the single most important SEO factor it's not one factor it's

factor it's not one factor it's factor it's not one factor it's thousands of factors but SEO

thousands of factors but SEO thousands of factors but SEO consideration because what you just

consideration because what you just consideration because what you just described is something that has proven

described is something that has proven described is something that has proven time and time again to be really time and time again to be really time and time again to be really important having you know recognized

important having you know recognized important having you know recognized knowledge panels entities like in

knowledge panels entities like in knowledge panels entities like in Google's Knowledge Graph for people

Google's Knowledge Graph for people Google's Knowledge Graph for people places and things that are associated to

places and things that are associated to places and things that are associated to your business which in the case of an

your business which in the case of an your business which in the case of an affiliate website it's usually going to

affiliate website it's usually going to affiliate website it's usually going to be a person right um it's going to be a

be a person right um it's going to be a be a person right um it's going to be a person who or maybe a group of people

person who or maybe a group of people person who or maybe a group of people who Love video games or they love travel

who Love video games or they love travel who Love video games or they love travel or whatever it is and think about like

or whatever it is and think about like or whatever it is and think about like the Points Guy right it's like a person

the Points Guy right it's like a person the Points Guy right it's like a person who loves traveling and the more or like

who loves traveling and the more or like who loves traveling and the more or like um The Pioneer Woman for cooking right

um The Pioneer Woman for cooking right um The Pioneer Woman for cooking right it's like and I actually did

it's like and I actually did it's like and I actually did presentations about like five or 10

presentations about like five or 10 presentations about like five or 10 examples of people who have personal

examples of people who have personal examples of people who have personal Brands where their site ranks for a ton

Brands where their site ranks for a ton Brands where their site ranks for a ton of stuff in their category because

of stuff in their category because of stuff in their category because Google says oh when you need um you know

Google says oh when you need um you know Google says oh when you need um you know cooking advice it's this person and this

cooking advice it's this person and this cooking advice it's this person and this person owns this website so this website

person owns this website so this website person owns this website so this website has Authority on those topics so the

has Authority on those topics so the has Authority on those topics so the more that you can reveal who you are and

more that you can reveal who you are and more that you can reveal who you are and why you can be trusted the other thing

why you can be trusted the other thing why you can be trusted the other thing too is users respond really well to that

too is users respond really well to that too is users respond really well to that you know I think users will follow you

you know I think users will follow you you know I think users will follow you on LinkedIn or Instagram or where

on LinkedIn or Instagram or where on LinkedIn or Instagram or where wherever it is that you are Tik Tok and

wherever it is that you are Tik Tok and wherever it is that you are Tik Tok and Google can pick up on that stuff you

Google can pick up on that stuff you Google can pick up on that stuff you know Google literally even has know Google literally even has know Google literally even has mechanisms to show follower accounts in

mechanisms to show follower accounts in mechanisms to show follower accounts in the search result so you know don't do

the search result so you know don't do the search result so you know don't do this stuff for SEO do it because that's

this stuff for SEO do it because that's this stuff for SEO do it because that's the brand You're the brand You're the brand You're Building yeah I I agree I think uh

Building yeah I I agree I think uh Building yeah I I agree I think uh personal brand building is becoming more

personal brand building is becoming more personal brand building is becoming more important and my personal take is that

important and my personal take is that important and my personal take is that it's actually like what I've seen in the

it's actually like what I've seen in the it's actually like what I've seen in the B2B space and you probably notice the

B2B space and you probably notice the B2B space and you probably notice the same as well it's that you know people

same as well it's that you know people same as well it's that you know people want to buy from people that's always

want to buy from people that's always want to buy from people that's always been true but in the B2B space I felt

been true but in the B2B space I felt been true but in the B2B space I felt it's really helped me a lot for my SAS

it's really helped me a lot for my SAS it's really helped me a lot for my SAS company and when I talk to people that

company and when I talk to people that company and when I talk to people that have done uh a lot of video work like

have done uh a lot of video work like have done uh a lot of video work like you know Craig Campbell for example is

you know Craig Campbell for example is you know Craig Campbell for example is they've just said the the work they've

they've just said the the work they've they've just said the the work they've in the past has helped them quite a bit

in the past has helped them quite a bit in the past has helped them quite a bit and I've interviewed Jason Barnard the

and I've interviewed Jason Barnard the and I've interviewed Jason Barnard the knowledge panel guy and he said this has

knowledge panel guy and he said this has knowledge panel guy and he said this has been like like all these people said

been like like all these people said been like like all these people said it's been so influential and I think I

it's been so influential and I think I it's been so influential and I think I think uh we will see more Affiliates

think uh we will see more Affiliates think uh we will see more Affiliates gravitate towards this but maybe what

gravitate towards this but maybe what gravitate towards this but maybe what stops them is I don't know if it's

stops them is I don't know if it's stops them is I don't know if it's imposter syndrome or if it's the being

imposter syndrome or if it's the being imposter syndrome or if it's the being uncomfortable in video and recording

uncomfortable in video and recording uncomfortable in video and recording YouTube I think that's basically the the

YouTube I think that's basically the the YouTube I think that's basically the the biggest barrier to entry yeah I agree I

biggest barrier to entry yeah I agree I biggest barrier to entry yeah I agree I think it's it's much easier said than

think it's it's much easier said than think it's it's much easier said than done including for myself I always say I

done including for myself I always say I done including for myself I always say I I want I wake up you know I woke up

I want I wake up you know I woke up I want I wake up you know I woke up today and I want to make a video and today and I want to make a video and today and I want to make a video and then I don't um so I get it it's a lot

then I don't um so I get it it's a lot then I don't um so I get it it's a lot of work it's just unfortunately for

of work it's just unfortunately for of work it's just unfortunately for better for worse unfortunately if you better for worse unfortunately if you better for worse unfortunately if you don't want to be on video but for better

don't want to be on video but for better don't want to be on video but for better for worse this is where the world is

for worse this is where the world is for worse this is where the world is going this is where the internet is

going this is where the internet is going this is where the internet is going if you look at the Tik Tok

going if you look at the Tik Tok going if you look at the Tik Tok generation they like looking at other

generation they like looking at other generation they like looking at other people they would much rather follow a

people they would much rather follow a people they would much rather follow a person talking about their favorite pair

person talking about their favorite pair person talking about their favorite pair of jeans than go on Google and type what

of jeans than go on Google and type what of jeans than go on Google and type what are the best jeans you know and then

are the best jeans you know and then are the best jeans you know and then have a Brands tell them which jeans to

have a Brands tell them which jeans to have a Brands tell them which jeans to buy like they people like people so um

buy like they people like people so um buy like they people like people so um maybe if you feel uncomfortable on video

maybe if you feel uncomfortable on video maybe if you feel uncomfortable on video there's someone you can work with to

there's someone you can work with to there's someone you can work with to help you do that part of the business

help you do that part of the business help you do that part of the business right you know I always I'm always

right you know I always I'm always right you know I always I'm always talking about like Brands these days

talking about like Brands these days talking about like Brands these days should be thinking about having in-house

should be thinking about having in-house should be thinking about having in-house cultural evangelists or Representatives

cultural evangelists or Representatives cultural evangelists or Representatives that are people that know how to build a

that are people that know how to build a that are people that know how to build a following on a personal level that following on a personal level that following on a personal level that represent the brand yeah I hear a lot of

represent the brand yeah I hear a lot of represent the brand yeah I hear a lot of that from Chris Walker from revenue

that from Chris Walker from revenue that from Chris Walker from revenue vitals and uh he's got a few different

vitals and uh he's got a few different vitals and uh he's got a few different companies and a lot of the people in in

companies and a lot of the people in in companies and a lot of the people in in his ecosystem for his companies they're

his ecosystem for his companies they're his ecosystem for his companies they're all doing the same thing is uh they have

all doing the same thing is uh they have all doing the same thing is uh they have their own podcasts and you know they

their own podcasts and you know they their own podcasts and you know they they've got their own you know point of

they've got their own you know point of they've got their own you know point of view on LinkedIn and they don't all seem

view on LinkedIn and they don't all seem view on LinkedIn and they don't all seem to copy a similar uh Playbook it's kind

to copy a similar uh Playbook it's kind to copy a similar uh Playbook it's kind of like take your own identity pick

of like take your own identity pick of like take your own identity pick something that you want to talk about be

something that you want to talk about be something that you want to talk about be your own mini topical Authority or your

your own mini topical Authority or your your own mini topical Authority or your own specialist n Niche and then um go

own specialist n Niche and then um go own specialist n Niche and then um go for it yeah yeah I mean that's it's

for it yeah yeah I mean that's it's for it yeah yeah I mean that's it's interesting now like even with LinkedIn

interesting now like even with LinkedIn interesting now like even with LinkedIn there's there's influencers from late

there's there's influencers from late there's there's influencers from late Den they're people right and I think the

Den they're people right and I think the Den they're people right and I think the first question is who are these people

first question is who are these people first question is who are these people second question is where do they work

second question is where do they work second question is where do they work right and you might be surprised to see

right and you might be surprised to see right and you might be surprised to see like oh wow they work at X Big Brand but

like oh wow they work at X Big Brand but like oh wow they work at X Big Brand but you're going to know the person first

you're going to know the person first you're going to know the person first right you're gonna like on LinkedIn right you're gonna like on LinkedIn right you're gonna like on LinkedIn you're going to see their content you're you're going to see their content you're you're going to see their content you're going to see their thoughts and that's

going to see their thoughts and that's going to see their thoughts and that's happening on X as well you know uh it's

happening on X as well you know uh it's happening on X as well you know uh it's it's been happening on X now we have

it's been happening on X now we have it's been happening on X now we have threads it's like generally speaking

threads it's like generally speaking threads it's like generally speaking people prefer to follow the accounts of

people prefer to follow the accounts of people prefer to follow the accounts of of experts in the space as opposed to

of experts in the space as opposed to of experts in the space as opposed to following the corporate account yeah I

following the corporate account yeah I following the corporate account yeah I agree it's I still do some of the

agree it's I still do some of the agree it's I still do some of the corporate brand building but after

corporate brand building but after corporate brand building but after working on LinkedIn for two and a half working on LinkedIn for two and a half working on LinkedIn for two and a half years it's U it it's people first the

years it's U it it's people first the years it's U it it's people first the corporate just kind of like pick pick

corporate just kind of like pick pick corporate just kind of like pick pick another reason for why that corporate another reason for why that corporate another reason for why that corporate account's goingon to exist and you know

account's goingon to exist and you know account's goingon to exist and you know for why people would even care to follow for why people would even care to follow for why people would even care to follow it yeah that great so I noticed that

it yeah that great so I noticed that it yeah that great so I noticed that you're involved in some capacity for

you're involved in some capacity for you're involved in some capacity for women in Tech and SEO I just wanted to

women in Tech and SEO I just wanted to women in Tech and SEO I just wanted to ask uh why do you think more women

ask uh why do you think more women ask uh why do you think more women should be an SEO I mean I can give you a

should be an SEO I mean I can give you a should be an SEO I mean I can give you a ton of reasons like in my journey in

ton of reasons like in my journey in ton of reasons like in my journey in affiliate marketing um you know it's

affiliate marketing um you know it's affiliate marketing um you know it's male-dominated and you know I I come

male-dominated and you know I I come male-dominated and you know I I come from the gambling space where um so many

from the gambling space where um so many from the gambling space where um so many guys were basically saying okay we're guys were basically saying okay we're guys were basically saying okay we're going to create the whole marketing going to create the whole marketing going to create the whole marketing ecosystem for the whole population

ecosystem for the whole population ecosystem for the whole population Without Really you know having an

Without Really you know having an Without Really you know having an understanding of like how people buy or

understanding of like how people buy or understanding of like how people buy or you know just understanding you know the

you know just understanding you know the you know just understanding you know the the opposite sex so I just wanted to get

the opposite sex so I just wanted to get the opposite sex so I just wanted to get your take on uh what you do there and

your take on uh what you do there and your take on uh what you do there and how would you encourage uh more women to

how would you encourage uh more women to how would you encourage uh more women to get get get involved yeah I mean um props to AR the

involved yeah I mean um props to AR the involved yeah I mean um props to AR the founder of women in Tech SEO and all the

founder of women in Tech SEO and all the founder of women in Tech SEO and all the women that are part of that Community um

women that are part of that Community um women that are part of that Community um she's actually been making a lot of she's actually been making a lot of she's actually been making a lot of hires for people that are working like

hires for people that are working like hires for people that are working like full-time or parttime at women and Tech

full-time or parttime at women and Tech full-time or parttime at women and Tech SEO um I've been I guess part of it from

SEO um I've been I guess part of it from SEO um I've been I guess part of it from the beginning from the Inception um and

the beginning from the Inception um and the beginning from the Inception um and I have to say as someone as a a woman

I have to say as someone as a a woman I have to say as someone as a a woman that's able to see that see what happens

that's able to see that see what happens that's able to see that see what happens in that community and be part of that in that community and be part of that in that community and be part of that community and then also see other

community and then also see other community and then also see other communities in the SEO space that are communities in the SEO space that are communities in the SEO space that are not just women it's always incredible to

not just women it's always incredible to not just women it's always incredible to me how that is the single

me how that is the single me how that is the single most helpful kind organized um just like

most helpful kind organized um just like most helpful kind organized um just like warm like like loving community in the

warm like like loving community in the warm like like loving community in the SEO space By by a 100,000 miles like

SEO space By by a 100,000 miles like SEO space By by a 100,000 miles like nothing comes close to that and there's

nothing comes close to that and there's nothing comes close to that and there's in-person conferences there's a slack

in-person conferences there's a slack in-person conferences there's a slack group there's a Facebook group there's

group there's a Facebook group there's group there's a Facebook group there's all kinds of events that they're doing

all kinds of events that they're doing all kinds of events that they're doing um and it's very open and and supportive

um and it's very open and and supportive um and it's very open and and supportive and there's you know rules of community

and there's you know rules of community and there's you know rules of community engagement and the way that people engagement and the way that people engagement and the way that people interact with each other that are like interact with each other that are like interact with each other that are like heavily enforced so it's it's a very

heavily enforced so it's it's a very heavily enforced so it's it's a very safe space and you know I speak at some

safe space and you know I speak at some safe space and you know I speak at some of their events and attend their events

of their events and attend their events of their events and attend their events and I mean there's women on my team on

and I mean there's women on my team on and I mean there's women on my team on my SEO team that prefer to be part of

my SEO team that prefer to be part of my SEO team that prefer to be part of that Community compared to other SEO that Community compared to other SEO that Community compared to other SEO communities because they just feel safer

communities because they just feel safer communities because they just feel safer there but you know that that Community

there but you know that that Community there but you know that that Community absolutely revolutionized the experience

absolutely revolutionized the experience absolutely revolutionized the experience of women in the space it made it a much

of women in the space it made it a much of women in the space it made it a much more inclusive place to learn and it

more inclusive place to learn and it more inclusive place to learn and it gave a lot more opportunities to women

gave a lot more opportunities to women gave a lot more opportunities to women where there weren't any before so Props

where there weren't any before so Props where there weren't any before so Props to a reach and that group it's amazing

to a reach and that group it's amazing to a reach and that group it's amazing and then whether this applies to women

and then whether this applies to women and then whether this applies to women or anyone that's new in SEO what would

or anyone that's new in SEO what would or anyone that's new in SEO what would your playbook be for someone that wanted

your playbook be for someone that wanted your playbook be for someone that wanted to get in the space where they they

to get in the space where they they to get in the space where they they wanted to get an SEO job because they

wanted to get an SEO job because they wanted to get an SEO job because they think it's a you know an interesting

think it's a you know an interesting think it's a you know an interesting work um in know work space whether they

work um in know work space whether they work um in know work space whether they want to be a consultant or say hey I

want to be a consultant or say hey I want to be a consultant or say hey I think this is the the career path I want

think this is the the career path I want think this is the the career path I want to to to take yeah I mean um of course you know I

take yeah I mean um of course you know I take yeah I mean um of course you know I think the the best answer to that is to

think the the best answer to that is to think the the best answer to that is to try to build your own thing at some

try to build your own thing at some try to build your own thing at some point it doesn't have to be like I'm point it doesn't have to be like I'm point it doesn't have to be like I'm going to put all my eggs in one basket going to put all my eggs in one basket going to put all my eggs in one basket and just make this my life because as

and just make this my life because as and just make this my life because as we've seen from the past few years we've seen from the past few years we've seen from the past few years that's very risky like to put all your

that's very risky like to put all your that's very risky like to put all your eggs in the Google basket but you should

eggs in the Google basket but you should eggs in the Google basket but you should have some experience building your own

have some experience building your own have some experience building your own things number one that experience can be

things number one that experience can be things number one that experience can be happening while you have another job if

happening while you have another job if happening while you have another job if they let you have side projects or they let you have side projects or they let you have side projects or whatever but I think that's very whatever but I think that's very whatever but I think that's very important something that helped me a lot

important something that helped me a lot important something that helped me a lot throughout my career uh but I would say

throughout my career uh but I would say throughout my career uh but I would say the most important thing the best way to

the most important thing the best way to the most important thing the best way to learn aside from teaching yourself is to

learn aside from teaching yourself is to learn aside from teaching yourself is to have some agency experience um I'm

have some agency experience um I'm have some agency experience um I'm biased because I've been doing over 12

biased because I've been doing over 12 biased because I've been doing over 12 years at SEO agencies but there's just

years at SEO agencies but there's just years at SEO agencies but there's just no chance that you could ever come close

no chance that you could ever come close no chance that you could ever come close to learning the amount that we learn as

to learning the amount that we learn as to learning the amount that we learn as quickly as we do at an agency as you

quickly as we do at an agency as you quickly as we do at an agency as you could in another job not to say that

could in another job not to say that could in another job not to say that people that work in house don't know a

people that work in house don't know a people that work in house don't know a ton they actually I always say people

ton they actually I always say people ton they actually I always say people that work work in-house doing in-house

that work work in-house doing in-house that work work in-house doing in-house SEO for brands have a completely

SEO for brands have a completely SEO for brands have a completely different skill set than what we do on

different skill set than what we do on different skill set than what we do on the agency side um I have friends that

the agency side um I have friends that the agency side um I have friends that work at some of the biggest brands doing work at some of the biggest brands doing work at some of the biggest brands doing SEO for them and I'm like we have SEO for them and I'm like we have SEO for them and I'm like we have completely different day-to-day completely different day-to-day completely different day-to-day completely different but the one thing

completely different but the one thing completely different but the one thing about working at an SEO agency and about working at an SEO agency and about working at an SEO agency and having years at an SEO agency is we've

having years at an SEO agency is we've having years at an SEO agency is we've seen it all we've seen it all you name

seen it all we've seen it all you name seen it all we've seen it all you name it I've seen it we've worked in every

it I've seen it we've worked in every it I've seen it we've worked in every category we worked on every type of SEO

category we worked on every type of SEO category we worked on every type of SEO disaster every type of SEO challenge you

disaster every type of SEO challenge you disaster every type of SEO challenge you know e-commerce publishing news whatever

know e-commerce publishing news whatever know e-commerce publishing news whatever affiliate all of it I've done all of it

affiliate all of it I've done all of it affiliate all of it I've done all of it local SEO everything so have at least a

local SEO everything so have at least a local SEO everything so have at least a couple years of agency experience under

couple years of agency experience under couple years of agency experience under your belt whether it's like an your belt whether it's like an your belt whether it's like an internship or an entry-level job because

internship or an entry-level job because internship or an entry-level job because you'll get trained you learn how to do

you'll get trained you learn how to do you'll get trained you learn how to do it yeah you're basically going through

it yeah you're basically going through it yeah you're basically going through the maximum amount of case studies

the maximum amount of case studies the maximum amount of case studies possible yeah and it's it's funny to me

possible yeah and it's it's funny to me possible yeah and it's it's funny to me when people talk about SEO as if it's

when people talk about SEO as if it's when people talk about SEO as if it's this one thing when they've only worked

this one thing when they've only worked this one thing when they've only worked on three sites because I'm like you do

on three sites because I'm like you do on three sites because I'm like you do you understand how big this world is

you understand how big this world is you understand how big this world is it's a very big world it's a universe

it's a very big world it's a universe it's a very big world it's a universe and you're a tiny planet yeah whenever I

and you're a tiny planet yeah whenever I and you're a tiny planet yeah whenever I think about SEO from a big picture I'm

think about SEO from a big picture I'm think about SEO from a big picture I'm like I don't even think we scratch the

like I don't even think we scratch the like I don't even think we scratch the surface about how deep SEO can get

surface about how deep SEO can get surface about how deep SEO can get because there's just so many angles like

because there's just so many angles like because there's just so many angles like I like focusing on the data side and I

I like focusing on the data side and I I like focusing on the data side and I think SEO and data been hand going hand

think SEO and data been hand going hand think SEO and data been hand going hand to hand for a long time and that's

to hand for a long time and that's to hand for a long time and that's that's a big component but that's not that's a big component but that's not that's a big component but that's not the only one yeah it's there's a million

the only one yeah it's there's a million the only one yeah it's there's a million different ways that you can do SEO or

different ways that you can do SEO or different ways that you can do SEO or spend your day as an SEO and they're all

spend your day as an SEO and they're all spend your day as an SEO and they're all valid it's all important and then the

valid it's all important and then the valid it's all important and then the last question which is what do you see

last question which is what do you see last question which is what do you see of the future of affiliate Market of the future of affiliate Market of the future of affiliate Market marketing as it intersects with business

marketing as it intersects with business marketing as it intersects with business intelligence

intelligence intelligence sure um I don't know it might be less

sure um I don't know it might be less sure um I don't know it might be less focused on search or the search aspect

focused on search or the search aspect focused on search or the search aspect of it will probably shift to other

of it will probably shift to other of it will probably shift to other platforms right like I think we've been

platforms right like I think we've been platforms right like I think we've been talking a lot about Tik Tok that's

talking a lot about Tik Tok that's talking a lot about Tik Tok that's probably a very big opportunity for

probably a very big opportunity for probably a very big opportunity for Affiliates um but also AI products like

Affiliates um but also AI products like Affiliates um but also AI products like AI AI AI llms um you know figuring out how you

llms um you know figuring out how you llms um you know figuring out how you can be in included in in llm outputs

can be in included in in llm outputs can be in included in in llm outputs could be another potential way that this could be another potential way that this could be another potential way that this is all going but um it's hard to say I

is all going but um it's hard to say I is all going but um it's hard to say I think we have to to um just kind of keep

think we have to to um just kind of keep think we have to to um just kind of keep a finger on the pulse of where things

a finger on the pulse of where things a finger on the pulse of where things are going because there's so much up in are going because there's so much up in are going because there's so much up in the air right now but yeah it's probably

the air right now but yeah it's probably the air right now but yeah it's probably going to become a bit less less focused

going to become a bit less less focused going to become a bit less less focused on Google in particular probably more

on Google in particular probably more on Google in particular probably more focused on like on social platforms and

focused on like on social platforms and focused on like on social platforms and video as well yeah I I would agree I I

video as well yeah I I would agree I I video as well yeah I I would agree I I think social is becoming a stronger

think social is becoming a stronger think social is becoming a stronger extension of search it's kind of like

extension of search it's kind of like extension of search it's kind of like you know Google was I trust Google to

you know Google was I trust Google to you know Google was I trust Google to give me an answer to whatever and now

give me an answer to whatever and now give me an answer to whatever and now people are saying well I trust other

people are saying well I trust other people are saying well I trust other people I need to know that they're the

people I need to know that they're the people I need to know that they're the authority and I think uh getting that on

authority and I think uh getting that on authority and I think uh getting that on social is becoming a lot easier and

social is becoming a lot easier and social is becoming a lot easier and stronger and not to say that Google's

stronger and not to say that Google's stronger and not to say that Google's going to disappear they still got their going to disappear they still got their going to disappear they still got their YouTube in there on the side but um it's

YouTube in there on the side but um it's YouTube in there on the side but um it's an interesting space where I don't see

an interesting space where I don't see an interesting space where I don't see it as a single Monopoly of just Google

it as a single Monopoly of just Google it as a single Monopoly of just Google it's kind of like well Instagram's a

it's kind of like well Instagram's a it's kind of like well Instagram's a player Twitter's a player you know

player Twitter's a player you know player Twitter's a player you know linkedin's a player yeah exactly

linkedin's a player yeah exactly linkedin's a player yeah exactly yeah I think that that's that's the

yeah I think that that's that's the yeah I think that that's that's the direction it's going I was just thinking direction it's going I was just thinking direction it's going I was just thinking today like I've been using chat GPT more

today like I've been using chat GPT more today like I've been using chat GPT more and more and more but that doesn't cut

and more and more but that doesn't cut and more and more but that doesn't cut into how much I'm searching Google I

into how much I'm searching Google I into how much I'm searching Google I think I'm still searching Google just as

think I'm still searching Google just as think I'm still searching Google just as much I'm just using chat GPT in

much I'm just using chat GPT in much I'm just using chat GPT in different ways so we'll see what happens

different ways so we'll see what happens different ways so we'll see what happens in the next few years but it's going to in the next few years but it's going to in the next few years but it's going to be very interesting I think it's going be very interesting I think it's going be very interesting I think it's going to be less of a a Google only Universe

to be less of a a Google only Universe to be less of a a Google only Universe going forward uh Lily thank you so much

going forward uh Lily thank you so much going forward uh Lily thank you so much for doing this I want to pass it back to

for doing this I want to pass it back to for doing this I want to pass it back to to ask uh how people can get a hold

to ask uh how people can get a hold to ask uh how people can get a hold you yeah um well you can Google my name

you yeah um well you can Google my name you yeah um well you can Google my name Lily Ray and take your pick of where you

Lily Ray and take your pick of where you Lily Ray and take your pick of where you want to contact me but uh I have a

want to contact me but uh I have a want to contact me but uh I have a personal website ly ray. myc and I have

personal website ly ray. myc and I have personal website ly ray. myc and I have a LinkedIn account that I post on

a LinkedIn account that I post on a LinkedIn account that I post on frequently and then X I'm always posting

frequently and then X I'm always posting frequently and then X I'm always posting on there as well L rayan Weiss awesome

on there as well L rayan Weiss awesome on there as well L rayan Weiss awesome thank you so much

thank you so much thank you so much thank thank you for tuning in to the

thank thank you for tuning in to the thank thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take

affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

this time to ask for a small favor to this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you

leave a rating and review wherever you leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us

listen to your podcast that helps us listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in

expand our reach to rank higher in expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more

podcast directories and reach more podcast directories and reach more listeners