The Future of iGaming with Alex Pratt from Clarion Events

whether it's affiliate marketing aidance running media running the shop down the road data is critical another one of our kind of Po cor values is is data so we can Now understand or starting to understand a understand a understand a customer 365 days of the year what what they're reading emails they're opening what they do on site what meetings they're requesting what meetings didn't turn up what they said they wanted to do at the show to what they did the side and that data opens up

a an amazing opportunity to improve experience improve our products but also tons of new products loads of new ways that we can monetize and I think it's the same for the affiliate sector the more that we can understand what is happening on our sites whether it's tracking conversion data um retention it it can only help improve performance it can only help us as a business justify our role within the sector I think often less than now but often filia had a bit of a bad rra

that it wasn't delivering high quality or Roi that actually is we start to move into this new business intelligence world we actually can stand here and say look this is the ROI we deliver I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Alex Pratt who is the managing director for clearing events and I've known Alex for a long time seeing him at events like affiliate

Summit and igb affiliate and going to be seeing him soon in Barcelona Alex welcome to the show thanks John and actually I was just thinking before that cap cap euroo and even before that the Cino affiliate conference yeah those those were uh pretty good uh starting events and yeah The Branding I thought was uh you know smart change to kind of go okay let's let's take the word Casino out of it and just call it gaming and you made life easier for people people like us

when we travel where you know it's like where are you going oh it's an affiliate conference what's the name of the conference igb affiliate okay no questions asked everything's okay you say casino on the right I need to check your bags for money so I want to ask you what do you see changing in the affiliate space like what is happening I ask you because I think you've got the perfect view of the entire industry um what affiliate segments getting better what's shrinking are there less

Affiliates but is the business getting bigger what are you seeing yeah that's a big question I think it's definitely getting bigger at least from from my perspective the events aren't getting smaller and that attende base is continuing to grow I think it for me that's really interesting because back when actually back in sort of cat buau days and and originally when igb affili started to come out we started to see regulation and permission to Market on things like Facebook and Google and all the various places

you could Sly open up the market particularly for operators I stupidly or at the time intelligently forecasted affiliate will be no more the these events with dios and and from that very moment on it's it's just got bigger and bigger and bigger and I guess for me the the the role of affilia is more than just a way to acquire players beyond the traditional means of of player acquisition it also adds brand adds recognition I think as humans we we we don't want to just go

straight to the person advertises the most on TV we want to know what people think we want to look at data we want recom ation all all those different things so I think you still got the the kind of continued whether it's Community or content based Affiliates I think we're seeing a lot more interesting stuff around using technology and tools to to provide a service almost but then monetize off the back of it I think something interesting I've seen not so much in gaming but more

in the retail space is around brand to Brand which I think really moves affiliate more towards this kind of partnership marketing I think there was one last year where Spotify did a deal with ticket Master where if you're listening to I don't know making up Guns and Roses actually well Guns and Roses are playing at this venue here want to buy a ticket and actually you both got the same database you both got the same interest in that data so why not monetize it together so

I think they really interesting stuff around that brand to Brand area obviously streaming has has got a lot bigger particularly in gaming I think again I think that influence area some people class it is affiliate some people don't I I I do because I think it's a performance-based eate based influencer based marketing but I think what's interesting on that area is the trend towards more genuine and transparent individuals it's I think you get from from streaming as well people don't people want to believe that you

use that cream or you play on that poker site I think other interesting areas I've SE I really liked the uh people that are doing streaming in premise I've seen a few bits of that where they're they're kind of an event for it and actually that adds a lot of value to a landbased casino Beyond just players it's it's all about branding it's actually creating an entertainment event within the premise itself which I think is really important we are after all in the in the entertainment

industry so now I'm not not seeing it shrink at all I think ever since I got in this sector people have told me there's no more space there's no way you can grow there's nothing to launch it's done whether it's the UK or an emerging market every year I'm surprised by a new affiliate that really breaks ground and I think back in years ago is when you started to see the Affiliates that were using things like Twitter didn't even have a website these guys were like

18 years old they probably in their late 20s now but making huge amounts of money not directing anyone to a website because they store and store media in a different way and I think we continue to see to see people leveraging new channels new platforms new ways to to work with a work with players I mean go back God knows how many years people I remember meeting yest was handing CDs outside his fite football job every week and that P to receiving ticket and gave him

some money so it will always change and I think that comes with technology it comes with youth comes with thinkinking slightly outside the box longwinded answer but yeah getting bigger oh that that was brilliant I I want to touch upon that a bit further because you mentioned influencers being a growing segment now do you think influencers kind of mess up the space a little bit from an m&a point of view I mean let's pretend this Alex Pratt is going to become a streamer so you're building

your brand that's more of a personal brand you can still associate it with like a website but it's going to be very difficult to say hey I want to acquire Alex Prat it's not say it's impossible but you kind of make it a little different when you're saying hey I'm a person and if people are buying from people and this is kind of like a changing space is this going to cause problems for companies like better where they they actually want to get more into this

influencer space and it's like you either have to have these big contracts and say okay you're stuck with us for one or two years but you're not quite getting Revenue share and like what do you think yeah no I think that buying that individual that individual property as a with a buying hat on would be usually risky and you'd have to price that in I think I'd be almost taking a A step above that and actually look at is there or if I wasn't in inside

building a network um of of of many individuals so you've got you can drisk it slightly so things like where you look at rather than buying a single podcast you're buying a network of podcasts but also that gives you more leverage around monetization and and when you're having those conversations but I think I think m&a is interesting in the affiliate segment I think where you've got a brand and a established scaled media business it's it's easy to price it's easy to I mean easy in inverted

comms easy to to buy and then relatively easy to integrate what I found certainly I've seen a lot of mistakes being made by some of the acquirers maybe a few years ago is where they're buying these founding their businesses and actually I think they took for granted the amount of passion and effort that went in beyond the technology and the users and actually trying to replicate that in a corporate environment and then actually scale it is really difficult and I think some some brands have done

that well some some are fall I think I think m&a is is difficult unless it's really a really traditional media band or or a piece of technology yeah I I have a theory that I think the best way to try to get equity in an influencer is through an affiliate Network because you imagine your traditional affiliate Network it's kind of like you're getting 20% cut of the business so if you kind of have this partnership it's almost like I wouldn't call it what you said earlier

but brand to brand but it's the closest thing I think it's the next best Gateway of saying if I can't quite buy people as influencers maybe I can own 20% of their business and say look we'll take care of the tech stack we'll do all the the stuff you don't want to do which is manage uh payments tracking links all that stuff and it's like you do what you do best which is you know entertain people and you know create create an audience exactly and then

and then you then goes back to you can actually build a network of of those influence and actually when you go to Brand X and torture the the reach that you have you're a you're able to provide a much bigger service and ideally get a lot more money and as well as reduce your cost as you're at scale yeah and there's actually one of those networks I know called I think it's stream.io so they actually Target specifically you know kind of like more streamers I mean

it's get into the name amazing yeah amazing so yeah we've already talked about affiliate networks do you see affiliate networks getting even bigger I mean the the the one that I think grabs a lot of attention in our space rate Tech they're public I think last year they generated 32 million EUR in Revenue I think it's the the key component that's like really driving their business and we've seen Kenna media say they're going to launch Marketplace I think it was days ago you guys just published

uh a big article with game Lounge where they're launching kicker seems like everyone wants in like are you seeing this as the next interesting product that's also B2B yeah look I'm I'm going wait and see because if you if you sp SP him to me last year and even probably a few months ago I'd say and having having run affiliate Summit for a few years as well so see the retail space where it's totally dominated by the networks and I've always seen in gaming I was

like that's just it's never going to happen partly because the the kind of unit units with the cost of acquisition the amount with spending versus whether they are slowest or a small retailer is just a lot higher so those relationships are really important I think it's a really relationship based business so those bigger Affiliates want to deal with those casinos directly um for those small to Media affiliat a network offers massive advantages for those non-gaming Affiliates that actually just have a segment of Their audience they

want to offer softer gaming I think it has a has a role but look we're seeing this trend if I was going to bet I'd say it won't win out I think it will probably appeal to the small to medium guys that I just just doesn't feel like a a sector that's that wants to be Consolidated into networks and I'm not sure the the brands themselves are so aggressive so Innovative that I'm not sure they would want to lose that control either and it's because it's

so I keep going on but when we talked to some of those even tier one operators that that traffic generated by Affiliates not only is it is it high but it's high quality and it and it makes or breaks some of them and so they can't afford to risk losing th those those relationships so I think there's I think it has advantages I'm not sure it will become the dominant Force than it I could be totally wrong yeah I want to Pivot a little bit but

still stay on the the same topic of affiliate networks now obviously in the real retail space like there's the a wins the share of sales and some of these Giants they make so much money but they're using Legacy technology and there's other ones like impact.com that are trying to you know they're a bit more newer I think and building more interesting features do you think there's a space where someone could say okay not only am I doing a network and what's a network one affiliate manager

one payment you get a better deal but maybe they're going to add a couple more things saying you know if I'm getting 20% of your business I have an incentive to help you with your SEO or at least stay on top of it you could have like an in-house SEO and say look if you're part of our Network these are other things that we do do you think there's an opportunity here to say look we can do all these extra B spoke services on top of

it to say look we're we're the next level above the network there's going to be a new version of it yeah no 100% and actually I think they're probably doing it but just haven't named it um some of the best affiliate managers I've seen out there will be working side by side with their affiliat um talking to them about their SEO you could have done this um B 365 I I used to be so impressed and they probably still do it now I haven't seen but

they used to come to probably not not not uh paper based anymore probably digital with an iPad but they used to come to the event with these folders lined up in their stand with profiles on the affiliat it wouldn't be just for their sake it would be like this is how you done this is where we see you can optimize this is where we see loads of analysis of how they could be doing better things with their side which will not only benefit the affiliate and

best5 but actually all the other partners and it was a really interesting holistic view but also really generates that loyalty and I think things like those those key affiliate managers that think that way or Brands like 365 that then create this the L and means that they continue to win awards every day but yeah I think I think it probably just needs to be named and then you someone could pretend they're the first one actually they've be doing it for a long time yeah I I've

been calling this like affiliate Network 2.0 or even 3.0 where the services are going to be built in I mean heck I mean m&a advisory could actually be a part of it but even buying if they're using I don't know a a software that helps drive conversion actually buying that the network buying that and actually either passing it on for free or passing on there's lots of things they can add value yeah like the one thing I think that will actually become a staple Within These

networks around the corner is going to be adte like imagine you've got the logos the compliance of the the offers the offers in all the different languages I mean I think a Affiliates are kind of wanting the service where they don't have to maintain this database and this solves problems on both sides of the fence like even I don't if you see if you remember uh right seen his new technology which is this kind of AI chat boss I guess at his basic level it's it's

better than our company what it's called boost box I think but plugging that into the networks or into to operators Sal where an affiliate can ask all the questions they normally have with affili manag but also ask it to generate content like I want to article along Man United versus Arsenal this Saturday I want you to emphasize these key words I want to blah blah blah blah blah obviously you then need to do your own work there but actually that adds huge value and if you're

if you're thinking about who to work with it's gonna it's hopefully will kind of leave you towards that brand over another one right so I want to talk about Clarion where in my opinion they've been a champion of responsible gambling and do you think everyone in igaming should care about this SE segment segment yeah I mean without doubt that I think claran and I I say claran but I'd say look it all starts with Eva backck and sad Walters who were diard supporters and drivers within

Claren years ago on slot of G when it wasn't a cool thing no one really needed to do it they started with a small conference on the mid Bank probably 30 people when I came back into to run claran gaming in 2020 there was three things I kind of found that were I guess the core pain points of the industry and they never really changed one is around Innovation one's around with spal gambling and ones around and compliance and regulation particularly in emerging markets and actually

we took those as our pillars for our business things that we stand by so part of that was actually resp respons of gaming Zone that we had the cpz in ice why is it in the back like if this is the most important thing of our industry and actually ice is the window the shopping window for government regulat legislators let's show them what we're doing so we move into the FR we've invested Fortunes in there we still raised lots of money for charity so I think

it's moved from being something that you kind of tick tox or nice to have much like sustainability moving through that journey to something that is essential like you can't exist as a business without acknowledging result G if you're not then to be honest you're probably not welcome at our events and in the industry certainly now and definitely in the the long term and I guess that's why we renamed it this year from the consumer protection Zone to the sustainable gambling Zone and that's because it's about

creating sustainability like we at our call we're we're an industry of entertainment we we create and deliver entertainment for for our players and actually it's about creating a sustainable environment for that entertainment soly it's not about taking all the money on day one or or having someone with a problem gambling on on your site actually creating this sustainable protected environment I think that's yeah it's where the industry is going it's where we're really focusing and and I think we'll see it more and more at our

events I will be surprised if we don't have an entire Hall dedicated to resp responsible gaming with the next few years it's just so much work going and so much technology yeah that's brilliant and maybe we won't touch upon non- gamstop gamstop sites the evil people yeah they're everywhere and it's changing I mean it makes me sick but yeah you mentioned like responsible gambling and you said Innovation when you said innovation's a key thing that you want to focus on with claran that's kind of implying

like do you think there's a a lot of lack of innovation I mean one of the questions I wrote out for you was to say that I think because IG gaming has had so much money it's actually decreased the pressure for people to be Innovative because they're like look you can launch an affiliate site like you've seen these Affiliates launch no budget and become like you know making millions per and same thing on the operator side you could launch a white label on a pretty minimal

budget and say look you just add Affiliates click click click you're we yeah no I agree I think there's two things one is the sector is is growing it's a fast leading sector it's still I mean the first bet was 1996 so actually it's relatively we're getting older now but it's still there's still Emerging Market still emerging technology with still so many players that aren't playing yet um so he growing really fast and see even from an event perspective we could I say this interning all

time we could sit here and outperform every event cross the CL in portfolio fundamentally doing nothing just living off our brand so it's really important for me as a business to also innovate and actually what can we do differently how do we outperform the the the growth that's already in the market so we need to be looking at Double Digit growth I think in the sector it does if you don't need to why would you I think there is some of that attitude I do think

we don't necessarily have the best regulatory environments for Innovation if you're going to truly innovate is it really worth putting all that money in knowing that actually it might not get approved it might need changes it's going to take time so there's not as much of an appeti and actually interestingly talking to the UAE they're very much about um creating a jurisdiction that that helps support and encourage Innovation so he he's Kevin his C gcd was saying the other day that he's sick and not a

direct quote but he's sick of hearing this industry there're saying there's no innovation well actually he wants to see that Innovation whether it's in landbased whether it's in the architecture the environment that you play online all those things so I think we will start to see that change interestingly I part of that focus on Innovation we've for the last 12 months we've worked with um quite a big technology Association to try and bring them on the journey that actually gaming isn't this scary environment like maybe

actually it it is about envir is about entertainment you're probably working with these customers already but don't realize and look at the opportunity so at ice you've actually got a load of kind of VIP Tech teeken investor tours going around to meet some of the best suppliers some of the best innovators so people that on called I think Amazon web services vone I can't remember all the kind lots of newcoming from out side sector to have a look go actually look have a look at what

we do have a look at our products what what could you do to help this sector innovate what would you do differently so I think it it's it is it's a difficult environment we're all making lots of money but that doesn't mean it's still the the bug bear of the sector if you talk to anyone so I think that I'll keep going on but I think the ice and I live were really focusing on that kind of pitch um concept that's startup every event has it

again it's one of those things that people keep sticking at the back of the roof well if it's so important why is it at the back in this lonely place where actually that that corner is your future of your industry so we need to move that and and put it up on a plat of pedestal and so you'll see ice actually it's in the center of the room this is only year one year two year three is where I think you'll see you'll be shocked the

investment and size and the support we will get from I hope from associ iations government cities in order to drive that Innovation and the investment we get there and you can see it mile World Congress that's what inspired me they have a part four 4 YN four four years from now 600 exhibitors in there all startups and the Buzzy It's amazing And I'd say 30 40% of those could be working gaming a lot of is MCH R Tech and actually it's like one we we have

we as custodians of the sector that independently actually should be doing the work to bring those guys in say I don't think it's dead yet but it's still yeah there needs to be more but we don't it's just not the pressure yeah so you must have a really good view into the next projects that you think are going to be exciting so I want to ask what do you see coming through the door that excites you apart from everything we're doing so there's are good stuff

there now we we we've done a lot not just on our line but our digital recap for new Tex St trying to dve transparent Roi I think the things that are interesting me I know everyone goes to it because it's just an easy subject is around what AI the impact of AI and at the moment it's super low level I me you're not seeing huge like change and I think that's in most sectors because you've got to understand it it's got to become more cost efficient

but I see the interesting thing to me is around the role AI can play in sustainable gambling and responsible gambling and how we can use that to help make our our industry better help make the environment more entertaining more safer which can only help them grow grow the industry grow the business so I think this we'll see some of that Tech icing next week but I think that's only just touching the C I think what what will come in the future will be incredibly exciting so

we talk and actually that's somewhere where people will fund and and innovate and we good I think so I think part of the AI I don't want to call it problem but I think the way some things can be solved is by just being a data company like by providing more data services you can say well then you can apply AI on it and then that can go in 100 100 different directions so I think this is both in the affiliate space and the operator and

the bdb services all of it and we sit on so much data so much and and and I mean half the problem is that no one shares it so that's a whole another yeah that could change so we talked a little bit about m&a and I want to ask what do you see in the investor side of the business like is this an easy time to raise money or is it difficult like what everyone else is experiencing in the SAS world you know is there I

think there's a lot of money uh to be deployed into startups but uh what are you seeing on your side yeah look I'm seeing certainly seeing more interest certainly seeing more people from outside of the sector which I think is always important there's a there's always a lot of blow of money from inside people that have exited people that were here in the old days and then set up their own kind of investment vehicles which is great they know the sector they know the opportunity they've

done it before but actually seeing external money coming I think it's more interesting both from an online and landbased perspective so I think people are recognizing as the sector regulates more and more as people understand that this is a technology driven business that is not CD that it is about entertainment that it is about responsible gaming that that there's more money coming into it and it and it's a sector that is relatively young and actually is got so much opportunity in it so I think look

it's never easy raising money is never easy but I think there I I'd say there's more there's more opportunity I think in the last couple of years than than I've seen before and we're seeing more investors register so that's kind of one of my dat points is that the the interest that that come to I that were registered to attend those pitch sessions we're seeing more a bigger variet more people in a bigger variety coming in so yeah I think really interesting time to be and

I guess that would be a mix of everything like Venture Capital Angel Investors you name it yeah and then right up to the usual investors that have the big wallets they carry their their suitcase behind them so would you say that I mean there's I mean an opportunity for the industry to double itself double is a massive word uh I think there is a huge opportunity for big big growth in this sector um certainly from our perspective we over the next few years we're looking here

we're forecasting high growth in some places doubling probably not in a year but in the next few years and I think that we can only double if our customers are also doubling and I think a lot of that will come from efficiencies I think some of it will come from consolidation but I think more so is around these emerging markets around new technology around regulation I think there's there's still so much opportunity and we're only really touching on it part of that you have to do

as an individual business part of that we actually have to do as an industry we've got a story to tell and we have to be proud of it and I think we need to come out and that part of moving to Spain was actually when we had conversations with all the various cities was actually this is it we're not coming and we're not going to hide inside a inside a hall we want to be part of your city we're proud of our sector we are technology

we have jobs we have Innovation and I think that's the narrative we have to keep pushing at that and then underline with providing entertainment that that's what we're doing we're we're looking to take people's entertainment time so our competitors aren't necessarily always each other yeah the sector we got a reputation thing to to work on yeah it's like on par with like a Mobile World Congress like that's yeah that that's like an Institutional conference in Barcelona it's that's everything for a lot of people yeah and

I remember when I first started doing events you know the people that steal well that steal because say don't have the data the people that send email saying buy these list buy these lists and I was like one day I'm gonna have an event where they like sell my lists because you're big enough to for them to come after you now I got there now it's like I want it be big enough to be to have protests outside that tell us that we're disrupting their city

in puty in sansil not Sigma mot style sort of somewhere in between I will regret saying that they probably don't want to stop a city but look Isis he must be in the top five top 10 of B2B eventss in Europe now one of the most important and actually I don't see why that can't come into the sort of top three uh based on the size of our sector as we start to move into to other areas whether it's hospitality and Hospitality Tech and all the

bits that come around come around come around gaming and so what do you see of the future of uh affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence now I think it's I think when you look for me whether it's affiliate marketing Avance running media running the shop down the road data is critical another one of our kind of Po core values is is data there's more for me people will often te me but there isn't any CS I am like there's always a data source there

is and actually as we and I could talk from our perspective is as technology and the price of the techy Technologies come down we've been able to se and find so many opportunities so we can Now understand or starting to understand a understand a understand a customer 365 days of the year what what they're reading emails they're opening what they do on site what meetings they're requesting what meetings didn't turn up what they said they wanted to do at the show to what they didn't do

at the show and that data opens up a an amazing opportunity to improve experience improve our product but also tons of new products loads of new ways that we can monetize and I think it's the same for affiliate sector the more that we can understand what is happening on our sites whether it's tracking conversion data um retention it it can only help improve performance it can only help us as a business justify our role within the sector I think often less than now often filia had

a bit of a bad rra that it wasn't delivering high quality or II that actually is we start to move into this new business intelligence world we actually can stand here and say look this is the ri we deliver but beyond just player acquisition this is how we're enhancing your brand this is how we've improved your retention of your players right now we're not being rewarded for that but actually let's start to talk about what that looks like and I think the same on the reverse

those those those operators all already have a lot of that data but they're getting more and more and actually the key is to have a more open and transparent relationship so actually by opening their data up the the Affinity can only be better it goes back to what we were talking about earlier what what services can they offer actually if you can start if you can tell the the affiliate this is what's happening with these users and what how they play or what they're doing like

how could or what you did here or whatever whatever it is it can only create create create a better experience for everyone including the players which I guess is ultimately the end game so I think it's it's really exciting but exciting across the board which means you're in the right place right place right place John I was literally goingon to say that as a comment thank you for the justification I appreciate it no I think what you're doing is is is so interesting because that I

when my brain starts to wonder I start to think about all the data points that you've got and actually probably half the problem is you have so many that it's where to start but even just two or three data points within your product would be a product in itself that would help with when it's benchmarking or or just really interesting yeah the the one thing that we've been zeroing in on of late is with Dynamic variables where you have click ID now what's happening like we

we at the very beginning of this conversation we talked about what is working or what is changing in affiliate marketing and I think the SEO affiliate sites are kind of Disappearing it's like you need a product what and what's a product a product is the ability to capture the user's email some first-party data so when you have first-party data you can actually control the exact click ID so now when you get the actual reports coming back from the operator you can actually get that data fed

back so you actually you you know the deposit activity the revenue activity of that player and then the data tools that are just starting to emerge on the operator space are player engagement reports like what games did they play the deposit method so this data is now going to be fed back I think this is going to be exciting space for Phil to say not only do you have like the ability to send newsletters and go what is the activity rate but to actually know what

newsletters are working and marry that back with first-party data I think first- party data is going to be the big uh game Cher my my threeyear strategy for for claring gaming is all about first party it's all like it's everything is about that owning that that data and it allows us to do so much more more yeah Alex thank you so much for doing this uh how can people get a hold of you if you want them to get a hold of you loads of different

ways like well I've actually given up 90% of social media these days I do have an account on Facebook because that's where everyone used to hang out I turn and now and again I go in there when I need G ke or some to Mena race and I see everyone's still there but LinkedIn always find me on there I don't what it is probably Alexs and on email as well alex.

claran events.com but or find me at an event find me anywhere I'm we open book awesome we'll include those links in the show notes more for the events themselves thank you so much thank you thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more listeners