Affiliate CRM with Niels Zee

I almost thought of what a perfect I almost thought of what a perfect affiliate CRM until and I made some

affiliate CRM until and I made some affiliate CRM until and I made some notes. Yeah. All the relationships like

notes. Yeah. All the relationships like notes. Yeah. All the relationships like our managers, the networks programs

our managers, the networks programs our managers, the networks programs where where is this log some

where where is this log some where where is this log some conversations and commissions you

conversations and commissions you conversations and commissions you changes contracts in there as well.

changes contracts in there as well. changes contracts in there as well. Performance by uh program also alert you

Performance by uh program also alert you Performance by uh program also alert you when a program shuts down or changes

when a program shuts down or changes when a program shuts down or changes anything not automatically that would be

anything not automatically that would be anything not automatically that would be great. profitability per partner per

great. profitability per partner per great. profitability per partner per page and then possibility even tied into

page and then possibility even tied into page and then possibility even tied into Gmail, WhatsApp or Telegram for deal

Gmail, WhatsApp or Telegram for deal Gmail, WhatsApp or Telegram for deal negotiations fast. Yeah.

negotiations fast. Yeah. negotiations fast. Yeah. I'm John Wright and you're listening to

I'm John Wright and you're listening to I'm John Wright and you're listening to AffiliateBI, the business intelligence

AffiliateBI, the business intelligence AffiliateBI, the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought

and affiliate marketing podcast brought and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by to you by to you by Stap. Welcome to the Affiliate BI

Stap. Welcome to the Affiliate BI Stap. Welcome to the Affiliate BI podcast. Today we're chatting with Niles

podcast. Today we're chatting with Niles podcast. Today we're chatting with Niles Z. He's an affiliate marketing expert,

Z. He's an affiliate marketing expert, Z. He's an affiliate marketing expert, speaker, and investor. He's the

speaker, and investor. He's the speaker, and investor. He's the co-founder of Traffic Family and he

co-founder of Traffic Family and he co-founder of Traffic Family and he recently announced a new book he's

recently announced a new book he's recently announced a new book he's working on called The Payout Mafia.

working on called The Payout Mafia. working on called The Payout Mafia. Niles, welcome to the show. Hey, thank

Niles, welcome to the show. Hey, thank Niles, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you, John. Happy to be here. So, I want

you, John. Happy to be here. So, I want you, John. Happy to be here. So, I want to get started with like a kind of tough

to get started with like a kind of tough to get started with like a kind of tough question, which is the reason why I

question, which is the reason why I question, which is the reason why I transitioned from an affiliate marketer

transitioned from an affiliate marketer transitioned from an affiliate marketer into the SAS space for affiliates is

into the SAS space for affiliates is into the SAS space for affiliates is because I think there's a lot of things because I think there's a lot of things because I think there's a lot of things that are broken in affiliate marketing

that are broken in affiliate marketing that are broken in affiliate marketing today. And I've looked up your

today. And I've looked up your today. And I've looked up your background and of course, this is the background and of course, this is the background and of course, this is the first question that came to mind. What

first question that came to mind. What first question that came to mind. What do you see that's broken in affiliate

do you see that's broken in affiliate do you see that's broken in affiliate marketing?

marketing? marketing? Yeah, it's an interesting question and

Yeah, it's an interesting question and Yeah, it's an interesting question and it's almost a shame that things are

it's almost a shame that things are it's almost a shame that things are broken because between the advertiser

broken because between the advertiser broken because between the advertiser and the affiliate, the incentives are

and the affiliate, the incentives are and the affiliate, the incentives are the same, right? We make money for you,

the same, right? We make money for you, the same, right? We make money for you, we get money. Everything that makes this

we get money. Everything that makes this we get money. Everything that makes this less aligned or less you get the

less aligned or less you get the less aligned or less you get the incentives for money and the other

incentives for money and the other incentives for money and the other person doesn't get money that's when it

person doesn't get money that's when it person doesn't get money that's when it get broken. So I think what you can

get broken. So I think what you can get broken. So I think what you can improve, how can you go and be aligned

improve, how can you go and be aligned improve, how can you go and be aligned for the affiliates, advertisers should

for the affiliates, advertisers should for the affiliates, advertisers should ask, what are certain terms that we can

ask, what are certain terms that we can ask, what are certain terms that we can add outside just a higher CPA or more

add outside just a higher CPA or more add outside just a higher CPA or more commissions. You're in the ad pack

commissions. You're in the ad pack commissions. You're in the ad pack space. So shorter payout terms are very

space. So shorter payout terms are very space. So shorter payout terms are very much welcome. Don't make people wait 90

much welcome. Don't make people wait 90 much welcome. Don't make people wait 90 days on getting paid because before

days on getting paid because before days on getting paid because before those 90 days in that conversion, they

those 90 days in that conversion, they those 90 days in that conversion, they already spent money on ads. They already

already spent money on ads. They already already spent money on ads. They already spent money on content. already spend

spent money on content. already spend spent money on content. already spend money on link building. So there's this

money on link building. So there's this money on link building. So there's this cash flow problem and this big delay on

cash flow problem and this big delay on cash flow problem and this big delay on return on people's cash but maybe also

return on people's cash but maybe also return on people's cash but maybe also other terms. Can you give them products

other terms. Can you give them products other terms. Can you give them products so they can make better content? Can you

so they can make better content? Can you so they can make better content? Can you help them with links, mentions or other

help them with links, mentions or other help them with links, mentions or other marketing, co-promotion things? So

marketing, co-promotion things? So marketing, co-promotion things? So that's for the publisher but also for

that's for the publisher but also for that's for the publisher but also for the advertiser. Get in touch with your

the advertiser. Get in touch with your the advertiser. Get in touch with your publishers and ask what can we do to get

publishers and ask what can we do to get publishers and ask what can we do to get twice the amount of sales? Is my

twice the amount of sales? Is my twice the amount of sales? Is my competitor or my competitor is my offer

competitor or my competitor is my offer competitor or my competitor is my offer competitive or not? And is it just the

competitive or not? And is it just the competitive or not? And is it just the CPA that is too low? Is it my branding?

CPA that is too low? Is it my branding? CPA that is too low? Is it my branding? Is it my landing page that is not

Is it my landing page that is not Is it my landing page that is not fitting? What can we do? Or is it one of

fitting? What can we do? Or is it one of fitting? What can we do? Or is it one of those side terms that I talked about

those side terms that I talked about those side terms that I talked about earlier? It's a shame and I see it from

earlier? It's a shame and I see it from earlier? It's a shame and I see it from the publisher side that a lot of people

the publisher side that a lot of people the publisher side that a lot of people they don't even reach out to the

they don't even reach out to the they don't even reach out to the advertiser because they just join a

advertiser because they just join a advertiser because they just join a network sign up and then they are a

network sign up and then they are a network sign up and then they are a member. Sometimes also these people are

member. Sometimes also these people are member. Sometimes also these people are reaching out but they're not getting a

reaching out but they're not getting a reaching out but they're not getting a response. Either they might be too small

response. Either they might be too small response. Either they might be too small or they just don't have a proper

or they just don't have a proper or they just don't have a proper affiliate manager that actually answers

affiliate manager that actually answers affiliate manager that actually answers their question. Yeah. get more aligned.

their question. Yeah. get more aligned. their question. Yeah. get more aligned. It almost seems for some affiliates they

It almost seems for some affiliates they It almost seems for some affiliates they could do with like the equivalent of

could do with like the equivalent of could do with like the equivalent of like their own account manager or their like their own account manager or their like their own account manager or their own affiliate manager on their side.

own affiliate manager on their side. own affiliate manager on their side. Like I've heard of affiliates where Like I've heard of affiliates where Like I've heard of affiliates where they've been able to double or triple

they've been able to double or triple they've been able to double or triple their business overnight just by having

their business overnight just by having their business overnight just by having that sales manager where it's okay look

that sales manager where it's okay look that sales manager where it's okay look we've got some deals that we can put in

we've got some deals that we can put in we've got some deals that we can put in place and they're doing like half of

place and they're doing like half of place and they're doing like half of what you just described which is like

what you just described which is like what you just described which is like what can I do as an affiliate? like you

what can I do as an affiliate? like you what can I do as an affiliate? like you go to the affiliate program, you start go to the affiliate program, you start go to the affiliate program, you start asking your affiliate manager questions

asking your affiliate manager questions asking your affiliate manager questions like, "Hey, what am I doing in relation

like, "Hey, what am I doing in relation like, "Hey, what am I doing in relation to my competition?" It's I think what's

to my competition?" It's I think what's to my competition?" It's I think what's maybe partially broken affiliate

maybe partially broken affiliate maybe partially broken affiliate marketing is this idea that everyone

marketing is this idea that everyone marketing is this idea that everyone wants to 2x their traffic. They don't

wants to 2x their traffic. They don't wants to 2x their traffic. They don't want tox their sales. Take your traffic

want tox their sales. Take your traffic want tox their sales. Take your traffic and convert it double that.

and convert it double that. and convert it double that. Yeah. They're too much marketers who

Yeah. They're too much marketers who Yeah. They're too much marketers who just focus on the top of the funnel

just focus on the top of the funnel just focus on the top of the funnel because more traffic that's like a shiny

because more traffic that's like a shiny because more traffic that's like a shiny shiny gray number. But exactly, John.

shiny gray number. But exactly, John. shiny gray number. But exactly, John. And I did the same. One of my first

And I did the same. One of my first And I did the same. One of my first hires was an account

hires was an account hires was an account manager and she was also the person that

manager and she was also the person that manager and she was also the person that got a team underneath her for the first

got a team underneath her for the first got a team underneath her for the first time because she made better affiliate

time because she made better affiliate time because she made better affiliate deals to be able to make all these

deals to be able to make all these deals to be able to make all these partnerships happy. She needed to change

partnerships happy. She needed to change partnerships happy. She needed to change the offers on the page constantly to

the offers on the page constantly to the offers on the page constantly to really maximize the earnings per visitor

really maximize the earnings per visitor really maximize the earnings per visitor that we have. And now after three years,

that we have. And now after three years, that we have. And now after three years, she's even running the company because

she's even running the company because she's even running the company because she got such a good overview of the

she got such a good overview of the she got such a good overview of the business. Because if you're talking with

business. Because if you're talking with business. Because if you're talking with the advertisers, you're also thinking,

the advertisers, you're also thinking, the advertisers, you're also thinking, okay, how can my traffic earn more? What

okay, how can my traffic earn more? What okay, how can my traffic earn more? What pages are doing well and which aren't?

pages are doing well and which aren't? pages are doing well and which aren't? Why is that? Let's give some feedback to

Why is that? Let's give some feedback to Why is that? Let's give some feedback to the content manager. Maybe we should do

the content manager. Maybe we should do the content manager. Maybe we should do more or less ads or traffic focus on

more or less ads or traffic focus on more or less ads or traffic focus on these aspects of the business. 100%. And

these aspects of the business. 100%. And these aspects of the business. 100%. And I advise everybody to reach out to the

I advise everybody to reach out to the I advise everybody to reach out to the people. And if you're getting bigger and

people. And if you're getting bigger and people. And if you're getting bigger and bigger, it's a full-time job. It's a

bigger, it's a full-time job. It's a bigger, it's a full-time job. It's a full-time job because you are in contact

full-time job because you are in contact full-time job because you are in contact with 50 to 100 to more different

with 50 to 100 to more different with 50 to 100 to more different companies. And it's a partnership. You

companies. And it's a partnership. You companies. And it's a partnership. You want to make them happy. You want to want to make them happy. You want to want to make them happy. You want to listen to them. So that takes a lot of

listen to them. So that takes a lot of listen to them. So that takes a lot of time. So Neils, one pain point I see in

time. So Neils, one pain point I see in time. So Neils, one pain point I see in affiliate marketing is a concept I call

affiliate marketing is a concept I call affiliate marketing is a concept I call revenue leak. And I wanted to ask what

revenue leak. And I wanted to ask what revenue leak. And I wanted to ask what are ways in which affiliates or are ways in which affiliates or are ways in which affiliates or affiliate programs, how are they leaking

affiliate programs, how are they leaking affiliate programs, how are they leaking money and why is this maybe not top of

money and why is this maybe not top of money and why is this maybe not top of mind for a lot of affiliates, publishers

mind for a lot of affiliates, publishers mind for a lot of affiliates, publishers or operators?

or operators? or operators? Yeah, I think a lot of people are not

Yeah, I think a lot of people are not Yeah, I think a lot of people are not enough on top of their numbers doing the

enough on top of their numbers doing the enough on top of their numbers doing the work and they see a payment coming in

work and they see a payment coming in work and they see a payment coming in and that's what they take for granted.

and that's what they take for granted. and that's what they take for granted. There are a lot of leaks in the business

There are a lot of leaks in the business There are a lot of leaks in the business can go wrong. regularly audit affiliate

can go wrong. regularly audit affiliate can go wrong. regularly audit affiliate links if they're still correct both if

links if they're still correct both if links if they're still correct both if they go to a 40 or four page if they're

they go to a 40 or four page if they're they go to a 40 or four page if they're configured correctly. Sometimes your VA

configured correctly. Sometimes your VA configured correctly. Sometimes your VA takes an affiliate link that should be

takes an affiliate link that should be takes an affiliate link that should be used for one site but puts it on the

used for one site but puts it on the used for one site but puts it on the other site for instance just too much VA

other site for instance just too much VA other site for instance just too much VA work copy paste. Yeah. So that that can

work copy paste. Yeah. So that that can work copy paste. Yeah. So that that can happen but also the products can be out

happen but also the products can be out happen but also the products can be out of stock or the page works but it's not

of stock or the page works but it's not of stock or the page works but it's not the right page anymore and then you need

the right page anymore and then you need the right page anymore and then you need that data. Fortunately some platforms

that data. Fortunately some platforms that data. Fortunately some platforms like Amazon or some tools make it

like Amazon or some tools make it like Amazon or some tools make it visible that platforms like Amazon are

visible that platforms like Amazon are visible that platforms like Amazon are out of stock but not all. So you either

out of stock but not all. So you either out of stock but not all. So you either need to manually check that or build

need to manually check that or build need to manually check that or build some kind of scraper tool that can help

some kind of scraper tool that can help some kind of scraper tool that can help with that.

with that. with that. And then also just make sure you measure

And then also just make sure you measure And then also just make sure you measure everything on those bases that the everything on those bases that the everything on those bases that the revenue is not dropping, that the

revenue is not dropping, that the revenue is not dropping, that the product revenue is consistent and

product revenue is consistent and product revenue is consistent and something didn't change there. Be heavy

something didn't change there. Be heavy something didn't change there. Be heavy on your advertisers regarding invoice

on your advertisers regarding invoice on your advertisers regarding invoice payments. We have advertisers going out

payments. We have advertisers going out payments. We have advertisers going out of business and because my finance guy

of business and because my finance guy of business and because my finance guy is just not on top of it enough, we

is just not on top of it enough, we is just not on top of it enough, we notice it 3 months later. And even

notice it 3 months later. And even notice it 3 months later. And even though they're going out of business,

though they're going out of business, though they're going out of business, we've been sending them customers for

we've been sending them customers for we've been sending them customers for those three months, which is a

those three months, which is a those three months, which is a shame. And yeah, what helps with this

shame. And yeah, what helps with this shame. And yeah, what helps with this 100% is use tracking software. We use we

100% is use tracking software. We use we 100% is use tracking software. We use we can track because that is for us it has

can track because that is for us it has can track because that is for us it has the most coverage with all our

the most coverage with all our the most coverage with all our advertisers. I heard about this cool

advertisers. I heard about this cool advertisers. I heard about this cool tool called stats which is very good

tool called stats which is very good tool called stats which is very good tool for at least I gaming niche. But

tool for at least I gaming niche. But tool for at least I gaming niche. But also there check the data from your

also there check the data from your also there check the data from your affiliate tracking platform any

affiliate tracking platform any affiliate tracking platform any commissions you're getting and see if

commissions you're getting and see if commissions you're getting and see if that aligns. And there could also still

that aligns. And there could also still that aligns. And there could also still be a lot of small things happening

be a lot of small things happening be a lot of small things happening either commissions not being accepted by

either commissions not being accepted by either commissions not being accepted by the advertiser. There's a big delay,

the advertiser. There's a big delay, the advertiser. There's a big delay, wrong invoices going out. A lot of

wrong invoices going out. A lot of wrong invoices going out. A lot of things can happen there. And lastly,

things can happen there. And lastly, things can happen there. And lastly, also for the affiliate manager,

also for the affiliate manager, also for the affiliate manager, communicate changes to the affiliates.

communicate changes to the affiliates. communicate changes to the affiliates. As an advertiser, you also need to know

As an advertiser, you also need to know As an advertiser, you also need to know the terms. I once had an advers me

the terms. I once had an advers me the terms. I once had an advers me because we received commission for

because we received commission for because we received commission for conversions up to 100 days. And I was

conversions up to 100 days. And I was conversions up to 100 days. And I was like, I just joined your program. Don't

like, I just joined your program. Don't like, I just joined your program. Don't be mad at me for you enabling this. Be

be mad at me for you enabling this. Be be mad at me for you enabling this. Be mad at yourself for not being on top of

mad at yourself for not being on top of mad at yourself for not being on top of it. But and then if you change it also

it. But and then if you change it also it. But and then if you change it also communicate these changes so we are

communicate these changes so we are communicate these changes so we are aware of it as well. Yeah. What are big

aware of it as well. Yeah. What are big aware of it as well. Yeah. What are big revenue leaks? Yeah. You talked about

revenue leaks? Yeah. You talked about revenue leaks? Yeah. You talked about two that are close to heart. Short

two that are close to heart. Short two that are close to heart. Short story. One of the biggest poker

story. One of the biggest poker story. One of the biggest poker affiliates that I know. One of their

affiliates that I know. One of their affiliates that I know. One of their account managers told me that someone

account managers told me that someone account managers told me that someone took a wrong tracking link. It was like

took a wrong tracking link. It was like took a wrong tracking link. It was like a sub affiliate link. It wasn't even a

a sub affiliate link. It wasn't even a a sub affiliate link. It wasn't even a link to the poker brand. They put that

link to the poker brand. They put that link to the poker brand. They put that on their main CTA for a month and it

on their main CTA for a month and it on their main CTA for a month and it took them a month to notice and they're took them a month to notice and they're took them a month to notice and they're just like wow that was like they they're

just like wow that was like they they're just like wow that was like they they're like why is this conversion rate so low?

like why is this conversion rate so low? like why is this conversion rate so low? It's the wrong link. And then the one

It's the wrong link. And then the one It's the wrong link. And then the one that's why did I want to build stats? So

that's why did I want to build stats? So that's why did I want to build stats? So many brands they just keep closing and

many brands they just keep closing and many brands they just keep closing and it's there's the apps that were on the

it's there's the apps that were on the it's there's the apps that were on the market they weren't really telling you market they weren't really telling you market they weren't really telling you hey the reason why you can't connect to hey the reason why you can't connect to hey the reason why you can't connect to the program is because it's closed.

the program is because it's closed. the program is because it's closed. Remove the tracking links. So those are

Remove the tracking links. So those are Remove the tracking links. So those are the biggest pains. something that I've

the biggest pains. something that I've the biggest pains. something that I've discovered almost accidentally like

discovered almost accidentally like discovered almost accidentally like being in the i gaming space you can have

being in the i gaming space you can have being in the i gaming space you can have positive and negative revenue. So I just

positive and negative revenue. So I just positive and negative revenue. So I just felt that there's some programs where felt that there's some programs where felt that there's some programs where it's I don't know if data manipulation

it's I don't know if data manipulation it's I don't know if data manipulation is happening but are there ways in which

is happening but are there ways in which is happening but are there ways in which I can look at more than just a table of

I can look at more than just a table of I can look at more than just a table of data and see stuff. So I'm like

data and see stuff. So I'm like data and see stuff. So I'm like sometimes there's you've got winning sometimes there's you've got winning sometimes there's you've got winning players at the end of the month and I'm players at the end of the month and I'm players at the end of the month and I'm like I want to visualize this the

like I want to visualize this the like I want to visualize this the numbers themselves don't do enough. That

numbers themselves don't do enough. That numbers themselves don't do enough. That was one. And I think another one could

was one. And I think another one could was one. And I think another one could be like a feedback loop that I don't

be like a feedback loop that I don't be like a feedback loop that I don't think exists yet in affiliate marketing,

think exists yet in affiliate marketing, think exists yet in affiliate marketing, which is imagine if you're working with,

which is imagine if you're working with, which is imagine if you're working with, let's say, a hundred affiliate programs

let's say, a hundred affiliate programs let's say, a hundred affiliate programs and three of them are haven't been

and three of them are haven't been and three of them are haven't been paying you for 6 months. If I knew that,

paying you for 6 months. If I knew that, paying you for 6 months. If I knew that, I would actually stop sending traffic to

I would actually stop sending traffic to I would actually stop sending traffic to them. And if you knew that from the

them. And if you knew that from the them. And if you knew that from the opposite, you actually might even say, opposite, you actually might even say, opposite, you actually might even say, you know what, guys, I'm going to cut you know what, guys, I'm going to cut you know what, guys, I'm going to cut off traffic. So I think I want to spend

off traffic. So I think I want to spend off traffic. So I think I want to spend some time going are there signatures in

some time going are there signatures in some time going are there signatures in which we can study the the livelihood or

which we can study the the livelihood or which we can study the the livelihood or the success of a program and can we find

the success of a program and can we find the success of a program and can we find signatures that might imply that there's

signatures that might imply that there's signatures that might imply that there's going to be a closure of a brand. We

going to be a closure of a brand. We going to be a closure of a brand. We can't predict these things but maybe can't predict these things but maybe can't predict these things but maybe with a lot of data we can actually look

with a lot of data we can actually look with a lot of data we can actually look at signatures and go what are the things

at signatures and go what are the things at signatures and go what are the things that have changed that might make us be

that have changed that might make us be that have changed that might make us be a bit concerned or the opposite which is

a bit concerned or the opposite which is a bit concerned or the opposite which is a brand has improved their payment

a brand has improved their payment a brand has improved their payment processing and then or maybe like you

processing and then or maybe like you processing and then or maybe like you said the payments instead of three said the payments instead of three said the payments instead of three months now they're on top of it great

months now they're on top of it great months now they're on top of it great this is so we can help affiliates I

this is so we can help affiliates I this is so we can help affiliates I think revenue leak exists so many places

think revenue leak exists so many places think revenue leak exists so many places I just think if the more people I ask

I just think if the more people I ask I just think if the more people I ask the more ideas I get back in return you

the more ideas I get back in return you the more ideas I get back in return you you've had some great ones yeah Great.

you've had some great ones yeah Great. you've had some great ones yeah Great. Great. Yeah. And and maybe if your

Great. Yeah. And and maybe if your Great. Yeah. And and maybe if your platform or if there's data shared about

platform or if there's data shared about platform or if there's data shared about if people pay on time or not, then it

if people pay on time or not, then it if people pay on time or not, then it could also help if you have a 15 day

could also help if you have a 15 day could also help if you have a 15 day payment time and you just notice that

payment time and you just notice that payment time and you just notice that like with all these companies, these 15

like with all these companies, these 15 like with all these companies, these 15 days are passed. This is a blockchain

days are passed. This is a blockchain days are passed. This is a blockchain idea almost because they're headsets and

idea almost because they're headsets and idea almost because they're headsets and everything. then it'll be nice to get a

everything. then it'll be nice to get a everything. then it'll be nice to get a warning of, hey, this company is on the

warning of, hey, this company is on the warning of, hey, this company is on the brink of bankrupt or at least suspicious

brink of bankrupt or at least suspicious brink of bankrupt or at least suspicious payment behavior and then you can get an

payment behavior and then you can get an payment behavior and then you can get an email like hey listen if you're not on

email like hey listen if you're not on email like hey listen if you're not on top of this right now I need to cut you

top of this right now I need to cut you top of this right now I need to cut you off.

off. off. Absolutely. But yeah, who knows will do

Absolutely. But yeah, who knows will do Absolutely. But yeah, who knows will do that cheaper. We'll see. So I want to

that cheaper. We'll see. So I want to that cheaper. We'll see. So I want to pivot quickly. One of the hottest topics

pivot quickly. One of the hottest topics pivot quickly. One of the hottest topics in content affiliate SEO sites today is

in content affiliate SEO sites today is in content affiliate SEO sites today is what's changing and we've seen some of

what's changing and we've seen some of what's changing and we've seen some of the different SEO thought leaders Matt

the different SEO thought leaders Matt the different SEO thought leaders Matt Diggity say basically the SEO playbook

Diggity say basically the SEO playbook Diggity say basically the SEO playbook is dead for affiliate marketing. So what

is dead for affiliate marketing. So what is dead for affiliate marketing. So what are the other channels you think people

are the other channels you think people are the other channels you think people should consider if you're going to

should consider if you're going to should consider if you're going to assume that maybe affiliate content

assume that maybe affiliate content assume that maybe affiliate content isn't dead but it's not what it used to

isn't dead but it's not what it used to isn't dead but it's not what it used to be.

be. be. I've been to a lot of SEO conferences

I've been to a lot of SEO conferences I've been to a lot of SEO conferences and it's definitely true. The first time

and it's definitely true. The first time and it's definitely true. The first time I went was in Vietnam almost two three

I went was in Vietnam almost two three I went was in Vietnam almost two three years ago and I know there were like

years ago and I know there were like years ago and I know there were like hundreds at least 100 people out of 300

hundreds at least 100 people out of 300 hundreds at least 100 people out of 300 were affiliate and now I went last time

were affiliate and now I went last time were affiliate and now I went last time as a speaker and it was

as a speaker and it was as a speaker and it was like maybe 5% so 15 20 people. It looks

like maybe 5% so 15 20 people. It looks like maybe 5% so 15 20 people. It looks like it's dying. But the thing is then

like it's dying. But the thing is then like it's dying. But the thing is then you go to a conference like Affiliate

you go to a conference like Affiliate you go to a conference like Affiliate World with 3,000 maybe even 5,000 people

World with 3,000 maybe even 5,000 people World with 3,000 maybe even 5,000 people and they're all driving but they're

and they're all driving but they're and they're all driving but they're doing paid marketing and they're talking

doing paid marketing and they're talking doing paid marketing and they're talking about numbers like spending 10 to

about numbers like spending 10 to about numbers like spending 10 to 50,000 a day and they all spend about

50,000 a day and they all spend about 50,000 a day and they all spend about what they're making a day instead of what they're making a day instead of what they're making a day instead of what they're making a month. Yes, SEO is

what they're making a month. Yes, SEO is what they're making a month. Yes, SEO is getting harder but there's so many other

getting harder but there's so many other getting harder but there's so many other channels. It's just that SEO's staying

channels. It's just that SEO's staying channels. It's just that SEO's staying in their lane and they're thinking, "Oh,

in their lane and they're thinking, "Oh, in their lane and they're thinking, "Oh, it quits, so I have to change." But

it quits, so I have to change." But it quits, so I have to change." But again, ma

again, ma again, ma advertising, Instagram is going big. You

advertising, Instagram is going big. You advertising, Instagram is going big. You can do funny things with the what we did

can do funny things with the what we did can do funny things with the what we did with Twitter because a lot of

with Twitter because a lot of with Twitter because a lot of advertisers are going away there. So,

advertisers are going away there. So, advertisers are going away there. So, you get really cheap clicks. Really

you get really cheap clicks. Really you get really cheap clicks. Really cheap. Fun story. We There are only like

cheap. Fun story. We There are only like cheap. Fun story. We There are only like 5 million Twitter users in Netherlands

5 million Twitter users in Netherlands 5 million Twitter users in Netherlands and maybe 3 million are active. Then we

and maybe 3 million are active. Then we and maybe 3 million are active. Then we said, "Okay, you know what? We're just said, "Okay, you know what? We're just said, "Okay, you know what? We're just going to slap an SEO page, but then two

going to slap an SEO page, but then two going to slap an SEO page, but then two Twitter ads on them. We're just going to

Twitter ads on them. We're just going to Twitter ads on them. We're just going to bid two cents per click." And boom, we

bid two cents per click." And boom, we bid two cents per click." And boom, we got more than a million impressions per

got more than a million impressions per got more than a million impressions per week. So, I got my neighbor saying,

week. So, I got my neighbor saying, week. So, I got my neighbor saying, "Nils, stop spamming me on Twitter." I

"Nils, stop spamming me on Twitter." I "Nils, stop spamming me on Twitter." I got WhatsApps from my family of Neils,

got WhatsApps from my family of Neils, got WhatsApps from my family of Neils, this is you, right? The whole time on

this is you, right? The whole time on this is you, right? The whole time on Twitter because they're just seeing our

Twitter because they're just seeing our Twitter because they're just seeing our tweets multiple times because so cheaply

tweets multiple times because so cheaply tweets multiple times because so cheaply and it worked. So there's definitely a

and it worked. So there's definitely a and it worked. So there's definitely a lot to do. If you are an

lot to do. If you are an lot to do. If you are an SEO and all your content is intent

SEO and all your content is intent SEO and all your content is intent driven and you failed, at least try

driven and you failed, at least try driven and you failed, at least try Google ads because this is the closest

Google ads because this is the closest Google ads because this is the closest and easiest thing you can do. You

and easiest thing you can do. You and easiest thing you can do. You already know what keywords are working.

already know what keywords are working. already know what keywords are working. You already have the page for those

You already have the page for those You already have the page for those keywords. You have the content. You

keywords. You have the content. You keywords. You have the content. You don't need much extra content cost. I do

don't need much extra content cost. I do don't need much extra content cost. I do advise CRO optimizations for that. But

advise CRO optimizations for that. But advise CRO optimizations for that. But yeah, try out some new channels. The

yeah, try out some new channels. The yeah, try out some new channels. The mistakes I do see people make go they

mistakes I do see people make go they mistakes I do see people make go they always, yeah, yeah, I tried Instagram.

always, yeah, yeah, I tried Instagram. always, yeah, yeah, I tried Instagram. Okay, cool. How much did you spend?

Okay, cool. How much did you spend? Okay, cool. How much did you spend? Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, €250. They're like, yeah, yeah, that

€250. They're like, yeah, yeah, that €250. They're like, yeah, yeah, that that that's just too soon. That's just

that that's just too soon. That's just that that's just too soon. That's just giving up way too soon. You might need

giving up way too soon. You might need giving up way too soon. You might need up to up to up to €5,000 because after those €250 or 500

€5,000 because after those €250 or 500 €5,000 because after those €250 or 500 you spend, okay, it maybe not work, but

you spend, okay, it maybe not work, but you spend, okay, it maybe not work, but it could very well be your landing page.

it could very well be your landing page. it could very well be your landing page. The conversion rate is just too low. the

The conversion rate is just too low. the The conversion rate is just too low. the offer is not good enough and good enough

offer is not good enough and good enough offer is not good enough and good enough payout. You're still using more like an

payout. You're still using more like an payout. You're still using more like an SEO focus instead of a social media

SEO focus instead of a social media SEO focus instead of a social media focus which just entirely different or

focus which just entirely different or focus which just entirely different or the audience is not a fit. So you do

the audience is not a fit. So you do the audience is not a fit. So you do need to test a lot of these different

need to test a lot of these different need to test a lot of these different variables and then you can say okay cool

variables and then you can say okay cool variables and then you can say okay cool now I got something working and then

now I got something working and then now I got something working and then every little optimization you make

every little optimization you make every little optimization you make afterwards that's your profit margin

afterwards that's your profit margin afterwards that's your profit margin because that's how the PPC game works.

because that's how the PPC game works. because that's how the PPC game works. every little 5 cent you make per visitor

every little 5 cent you make per visitor every little 5 cent you make per visitor extra is all profit from that moment on.

extra is all profit from that moment on. extra is all profit from that moment on. And yeah, it just needs needs a lot more

And yeah, it just needs needs a lot more And yeah, it just needs needs a lot more testing than people think. And what do

testing than people think. And what do testing than people think. And what do you think about Reddit? Because I saw

you think about Reddit? Because I saw you think about Reddit? Because I saw you posted recently saying, "Hey, this

you posted recently saying, "Hey, this you posted recently saying, "Hey, this is a an easy game that people can still

is a an easy game that people can still is a an easy game that people can still tap into and you gave some tips on

tap into and you gave some tips on tap into and you gave some tips on this." What's your take on Reddit for

this." What's your take on Reddit for this." What's your take on Reddit for SEO as well as building an audience?

SEO as well as building an audience? SEO as well as building an audience? Yeah. Yeah, it it also works. I wouldn't

Yeah. Yeah, it it also works. I wouldn't Yeah. Yeah, it it also works. I wouldn't say so. It's still lended property. The

say so. It's still lended property. The say so. It's still lended property. The way I've seen it works is not per se by

way I've seen it works is not per se by way I've seen it works is not per se by building an audience but do so the way

building an audience but do so the way building an audience but do so the way is Reddit took over so many search

is Reddit took over so many search is Reddit took over so many search queries right now. Then if they are

queries right now. Then if they are queries right now. Then if they are ranking for keywords that are close to

ranking for keywords that are close to ranking for keywords that are close to you or that you ranked previously for

you or that you ranked previously for you or that you ranked previously for okay now get the spots in Reddit.

okay now get the spots in Reddit. okay now get the spots in Reddit. Basically that is how you should think.

Basically that is how you should think. Basically that is how you should think. And if you make a comment, you either

And if you make a comment, you either And if you make a comment, you either make comment yourself, you can buy an

make comment yourself, you can buy an make comment yourself, you can buy an account, you make that comment as

account, you make that comment as account, you make that comment as neutral as possible because Reddit does

neutral as possible because Reddit does neutral as possible because Reddit does have yeah I call it the audience is a

have yeah I call it the audience is a have yeah I call it the audience is a bit on a white horse. It's a white

bit on a white horse. It's a white bit on a white horse. It's a white ethical horse of this is the right way

ethical horse of this is the right way ethical horse of this is the right way and you cannot be you cannot be too

and you cannot be you cannot be too and you cannot be you cannot be too commercial, you cannot be too this

commercial, you cannot be too this commercial, you cannot be too this promotional, not be like a marketer.

promotional, not be like a marketer. promotional, not be like a marketer. It's a forum where real people give real

It's a forum where real people give real It's a forum where real people give real advice to each other. So a neutral tone

advice to each other. So a neutral tone advice to each other. So a neutral tone is very important there and you can even

is very important there and you can even is very important there and you can even buy up votes. Got to buy a few up votes

buy up votes. Got to buy a few up votes buy up votes. Got to buy a few up votes that will help the rank and that one can

that will help the rank and that one can that will help the rank and that one can definitely help. Do make sure to not it

definitely help. Do make sure to not it definitely help. Do make sure to not it is sometimes a bit hard as an affiliate

is sometimes a bit hard as an affiliate is sometimes a bit hard as an affiliate as your affiliate link can disguise what

as your affiliate link can disguise what as your affiliate link can disguise what you're doing. So you can either use some

you're doing. So you can either use some you're doing. So you can either use some affiliate cloaking tool or you use it if

affiliate cloaking tool or you use it if affiliate cloaking tool or you use it if you are the tool and the brand itself

you are the tool and the brand itself you are the tool and the brand itself because then just having the link out

because then just having the link out because then just having the link out there already in your Google Analytics

there already in your Google Analytics there already in your Google Analytics or your analytics tool will make sure

or your analytics tool will make sure or your analytics tool will make sure that it's being tracked for Reddit.

that it's being tracked for Reddit. that it's being tracked for Reddit. Definitely also an option. Do always

Definitely also an option. Do always Definitely also an option. Do always check how interesting it is by the AHF

check how interesting it is by the AHF check how interesting it is by the AHF tools. So you have an estimation of what

tools. So you have an estimation of what tools. So you have an estimation of what it can give because the page gets

it can give because the page gets it can give because the page gets traffic and from that traffic you can

traffic and from that traffic you can traffic and from that traffic you can get a part of it not every day as you

get a part of it not every day as you get a part of it not every day as you are ranking you will be ranking for that

are ranking you will be ranking for that are ranking you will be ranking for that position. Yeah. Okay. So your answer

position. Yeah. Okay. So your answer position. Yeah. Okay. So your answer gave me an idea that I thought about for

gave me an idea that I thought about for gave me an idea that I thought about for quite some time which is this concept.

quite some time which is this concept. quite some time which is this concept. Imagine if you put an affiliate link in

Imagine if you put an affiliate link in Imagine if you put an affiliate link in a Reddit comment. People are like, "Oh,

a Reddit comment. People are like, "Oh, a Reddit comment. People are like, "Oh, you're spamming me." But what do you

you're spamming me." But what do you you're spamming me." But what do you think about the idea of having more of

think about the idea of having more of think about the idea of having more of these kind of branded landing pages?

these kind of branded landing pages? these kind of branded landing pages? Let's say, let's pretend we're promoting

Let's say, let's pretend we're promoting Let's say, let's pretend we're promoting Seamrush. Now, obviously, if someone

Seamrush. Now, obviously, if someone Seamrush. Now, obviously, if someone sees a link that's, let's say, it's

sees a link that's, let's say, it's sees a link that's, let's say, it's neil.samrush.com, they're like, "That

neil.samrush.com, they're like, "That neil.samrush.com, they're like, "That might be an affiliate link, but it also

might be an affiliate link, but it also might be an affiliate link, but it also might not be, and people won't really

might not be, and people won't really might not be, and people won't really know." But I think my opinion is people

know." But I think my opinion is people know." But I think my opinion is people might want to click on that link a lot

might want to click on that link a lot might want to click on that link a lot more than something that's like

more than something that's like more than something that's like senrush.com/questark equals 567 blah

senrush.com/questark equals 567 blah senrush.com/questark equals 567 blah blah blah blah. That's that's an obvious blah blah blah. That's that's an obvious blah blah blah. That's that's an obvious link. Do you think uh maybe this concept

link. Do you think uh maybe this concept link. Do you think uh maybe this concept of a landing page that's like a

of a landing page that's like a of a landing page that's like a friendlier link could be something that

friendlier link could be something that friendlier link could be something that maybe it just might work.

It's still hard because there is like It's still hard because there is like why do you have a URL at least that's

why do you have a URL at least that's why do you have a URL at least that's but it's also hard for me because I'm an

but it's also hard for me because I'm an but it's also hard for me because I'm an affiliate marketer and I know these

affiliate marketer and I know these affiliate marketer and I know these things. It's hard for me to have a blind

things. It's hard for me to have a blind things. It's hard for me to have a blind eye and think as a normal consumer who

eye and think as a normal consumer who eye and think as a normal consumer who doesn't see that maybe it will. It's

doesn't see that maybe it will. It's doesn't see that maybe it will. It's definitely worth testing out.

definitely worth testing out. definitely worth testing out. What would greatly help in this case is,

What would greatly help in this case is, What would greatly help in this case is, hey, I found out this discount code or

hey, I found out this discount code or hey, I found out this discount code or this little extra thing that gives them

this little extra thing that gives them this little extra thing that gives them a reason to click on the link because

a reason to click on the link because a reason to click on the link because then it's also giving something. So,

then it's also giving something. So, then it's also giving something. So, it's more, oh yeah, by the way, use this

it's more, oh yeah, by the way, use this it's more, oh yeah, by the way, use this page because I'm a I'm a partner in them

page because I'm a I'm a partner in them page because I'm a I'm a partner in them or I am something affiliated to them,

or I am something affiliated to them, or I am something affiliated to them, but here's extra 10% discount if you

but here's extra 10% discount if you but here's extra 10% discount if you wrote news.

wrote news. wrote news. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Pivoting a

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Pivoting a Yeah. No, that makes sense. Pivoting a bit further or just talking a bit more

bit further or just talking a bit more bit further or just talking a bit more of tools. What tools do you have in your

of tools. What tools do you have in your of tools. What tools do you have in your affiliate toolbox?

affiliate toolbox? affiliate toolbox? Yeah, most essential tools like not as

Yeah, most essential tools like not as Yeah, most essential tools like not as Slack or all these things is first of

Slack or all these things is first of Slack or all these things is first of all affiliate revenue tracking software

all affiliate revenue tracking software all affiliate revenue tracking software and I also always recommend it to

and I also always recommend it to and I also always recommend it to everyone I want to work with together

everyone I want to work with together everyone I want to work with together because if you do not know how much your

because if you do not know how much your because if you do not know how much your pages bring or how the EBC is of certain

pages bring or how the EBC is of certain pages bring or how the EBC is of certain products you're just it's just you need

products you're just it's just you need products you're just it's just you need granularity to really optimize that.

granularity to really optimize that. granularity to really optimize that. That's the first thing and I always see

That's the first thing and I always see That's the first thing and I always see beginning affiliates not having anything

beginning affiliates not having anything beginning affiliates not having anything like that like that like that yet. Affiliate revenue tracking software

yet. Affiliate revenue tracking software yet. Affiliate revenue tracking software we use for our content processes with a

we use for our content processes with a we use for our content processes with a whole system where the briefings all in

whole system where the briefings all in whole system where the briefings all in there and then I just insert the

there and then I just insert the there and then I just insert the keywords and then someone picks it up

keywords and then someone picks it up keywords and then someone picks it up and says okay the status is now done and

and says okay the status is now done and and says okay the status is now done and then the editor picks it up and then the

then the editor picks it up and then the then the editor picks it up and then the VA picks it up and the quality assurance

VA picks it up and the quality assurance VA picks it up and the quality assurance picks it up and then it's published.

picks it up and then it's published. picks it up and then it's published. Basically slides we use for our internal

Basically slides we use for our internal Basically slides we use for our internal processes and processes and processes and documentation. It's like a notion with

documentation. It's like a notion with documentation. It's like a notion with little bit less features. So it's easier

little bit less features. So it's easier little bit less features. So it's easier for normal people to use. Ahs for

for normal people to use. Ahs for for normal people to use. Ahs for keyword research and get lasso for

keyword research and get lasso for keyword research and get lasso for product displays. These are the main

product displays. These are the main product displays. These are the main tools that we use. Okay. Yeah. It's cool

tools that we use. Okay. Yeah. It's cool tools that we use. Okay. Yeah. It's cool that you mentioned Lasso because that's that you mentioned Lasso because that's that you mentioned Lasso because that's a company I've been following for quite a company I've been following for quite a company I've been following for quite some time and I know Jamie if we had him

some time and I know Jamie if we had him some time and I know Jamie if we had him on this podcast and I got to ask them

on this podcast and I got to ask them on this podcast and I got to ask them like a lot of questions cuz Lasso is

like a lot of questions cuz Lasso is like a lot of questions cuz Lasso is it'll be a future competitor when we get

it'll be a future competitor when we get it'll be a future competitor when we get in the ad space and what I think was

in the ad space and what I think was in the ad space and what I think was cool about them is they did adtech first

cool about them is they did adtech first cool about them is they did adtech first and then they added analytics. We rarely

and then they added analytics. We rarely and then they added analytics. We rarely see these two spaces connect the dots

see these two spaces connect the dots see these two spaces connect the dots and yeah it's just a fascinating company

and yeah it's just a fascinating company and yeah it's just a fascinating company to follow. Yeah. Yeah. They do it well

to follow. Yeah. Yeah. They do it well to follow. Yeah. Yeah. They do it well with the product displays. I can't

with the product displays. I can't with the product displays. I can't complain. I'm not using their analytics

complain. I'm not using their analytics complain. I'm not using their analytics but that is mainly because coverage like

but that is mainly because coverage like but that is mainly because coverage like core main platform for instance family

core main platform for instance family core main platform for instance family is

is is not 50% of my revenue. What I

not 50% of my revenue. What I not 50% of my revenue. What I recommend is I mostly look for an

recommend is I mostly look for an recommend is I mostly look for an affiliate tracking software is like is

affiliate tracking software is like is affiliate tracking software is like is being tracked. Yeah,

being tracked. Yeah, being tracked. Yeah, because that's the essential these all

because that's the essential these all because that's the essential these all these extra features but yeah that's the

these extra features but yeah that's the these extra features but yeah that's the essentials. And what do you think? Are

essentials. And what do you think? Are essentials. And what do you think? Are there any real affiliate serum tools on

there any real affiliate serum tools on there any real affiliate serum tools on the market? Anything you can think of?

the market? Anything you can think of? the market? Anything you can think of? Or how do you see other affiliates put

Or how do you see other affiliates put Or how do you see other affiliates put all these things together? Or is this

all these things together? Or is this all these things together? Or is this like you're on your own? You got to

like you're on your own? You got to like you're on your own? You got to build your own custom affiliate CRM if

build your own custom affiliate CRM if build your own custom affiliate CRM if there is one.

Oh, I don't know of any. Yeah, it's a Oh, I don't know of any. Yeah, it's a great question. I'm

great question. I'm great question. I'm almost Google sheet with all the

almost Google sheet with all the almost Google sheet with all the different parties. have a lot of manual

different parties. have a lot of manual different parties. have a lot of manual invoices that we send out as well. And

invoices that we send out as well. And invoices that we send out as well. And then what's tracking affiliate network

then what's tracking affiliate network then what's tracking affiliate network we have if it's being tracked by our

we have if it's being tracked by our we have if it's being tracked by our tracking software because not everything

tracking software because not everything tracking software because not everything can always be tracked and it's a messy

can always be tracked and it's a messy can always be tracked and it's a messy sheet. I almost thought of what a

sheet. I almost thought of what a sheet. I almost thought of what a perfect affiliate CRM and I made some

perfect affiliate CRM and I made some perfect affiliate CRM and I made some notes. Yeah. All the relationships, the

notes. Yeah. All the relationships, the notes. Yeah. All the relationships, the account managers, the networks programs

account managers, the networks programs account managers, the networks programs where where it is locked, some

where where it is locked, some where where it is locked, some conversations, commissions, new changes,

conversations, commissions, new changes, conversations, commissions, new changes, contracts in there as well. Performance

contracts in there as well. Performance contracts in there as well. Performance by uh program also alert you when a

by uh program also alert you when a by uh program also alert you when a program shuts down or changes anything

program shuts down or changes anything program shuts down or changes anything automatically. That would be great.

automatically. That would be great. automatically. That would be great. profitability per partner page and then

profitability per partner page and then profitability per partner page and then possibility even tied into Gmail,

possibility even tied into Gmail, possibility even tied into Gmail, WhatsApp or Telegram for deal

WhatsApp or Telegram for deal WhatsApp or Telegram for deal negotiations fast. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we

negotiations fast. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we negotiations fast. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz we thought about some of these things as thought about some of these things as thought about some of these things as well where it's like we know like more

well where it's like we know like more well where it's like we know like more advanced affiliates will actually have advanced affiliates will actually have advanced affiliates will actually have like actual contracts that are they're

like actual contracts that are they're like actual contracts that are they're outside of the standard terms condition.

outside of the standard terms condition. outside of the standard terms condition. So it's like you have insertion orders,

So it's like you have insertion orders, So it's like you have insertion orders, contracts, you have the negotiated

contracts, you have the negotiated contracts, you have the negotiated deals, the invoicing, who's your

deals, the invoicing, who's your deals, the invoicing, who's your affiliate manager, and then I think what

affiliate manager, and then I think what affiliate manager, and then I think what could be also missing from this whole

could be also missing from this whole could be also missing from this whole ecosystem is this concept of inventory.

ecosystem is this concept of inventory. ecosystem is this concept of inventory. There's inventory on your side, but

There's inventory on your side, but There's inventory on your side, but there's also inventory on the operator

there's also inventory on the operator there's also inventory on the operator side, which is what are the offers, what

side, which is what are the offers, what side, which is what are the offers, what are the products, can I get that data

are the products, can I get that data are the products, can I get that data where maybe if they update that data,

where maybe if they update that data, where maybe if they update that data, that could actually propagate on your

that could actually propagate on your that could actually propagate on your CRM that's more userfacing, if that

CRM that's more userfacing, if that CRM that's more userfacing, if that makes sense. makes sense. makes sense. That makes sense. It's cool. So, we're

That makes sense. It's cool. So, we're That makes sense. It's cool. So, we're working on something there. But you've working on something there. But you've working on something there. But you've got some good notes there. Thank you for got some good notes there. Thank you for got some good notes there. Thank you for that. So, when are you going into the

that. So, when are you going into the that. So, when are you going into the CRM space, you think? I think we're

CRM space, you think? I think we're CRM space, you think? I think we're technically I'd say we're there already.

technically I'd say we're there already. technically I'd say we're there already. So, I'll tell you what we've built and

So, I'll tell you what we've built and So, I'll tell you what we've built and what we're adding as we speak. So, we've

what we're adding as we speak. So, we've what we're adding as we speak. So, we've got the stats aggregation. We have an

got the stats aggregation. We have an got the stats aggregation. We have an invoice generator. We have the ability

invoice generator. We have the ability invoice generator. We have the ability to add alerts. So, if any of your KPIs

to add alerts. So, if any of your KPIs to add alerts. So, if any of your KPIs increase or decrease, you can actually increase or decrease, you can actually increase or decrease, you can actually say, "I want an alert." But we're now

say, "I want an alert." But we're now say, "I want an alert." But we're now trying to build that so it's at scale so

trying to build that so it's at scale so trying to build that so it's at scale so you don't have to build 2,000 different

you don't have to build 2,000 different you don't have to build 2,000 different tiny alerts. Let's see. Ability to

tiny alerts. Let's see. Ability to tiny alerts. Let's see. Ability to manage your deals, flat fees, who your

manage your deals, flat fees, who your manage your deals, flat fees, who your account manager is. I'm personally

account manager is. I'm personally account manager is. I'm personally wanting to work on an annotation system

wanting to work on an annotation system wanting to work on an annotation system inside. So it's your personal

inside. So it's your personal inside. So it's your personal annotations, but then we can actually

annotations, but then we can actually annotations, but then we can actually say here's the global annot annotations

say here's the global annot annotations say here's the global annot annotations like HS where they've got HS annotation,

like HS where they've got HS annotation, like HS where they've got HS annotation, then they've got the Google annotation.

then they've got the Google annotation. then they've got the Google annotation. We want to have it so it's both. It

We want to have it so it's both. It We want to have it so it's both. It could be a Google. It could be, let's

could be a Google. It could be, let's could be a Google. It could be, let's say, a program has now added a new brand

say, a program has now added a new brand say, a program has now added a new brand or they've closed a brand. This is

or they've closed a brand. This is or they've closed a brand. This is pretty important data because maybe when

pretty important data because maybe when pretty important data because maybe when the brand's closed, you might see the

the brand's closed, you might see the the brand's closed, you might see the correlation of a drop in revenue. Oh,

correlation of a drop in revenue. Oh, correlation of a drop in revenue. Oh, that makes sense. Of course, link

that makes sense. Of course, link that makes sense. Of course, link tracking, I think, is a critical

tracking, I think, is a critical tracking, I think, is a critical component where we've actually added

component where we've actually added component where we've actually added 1,700 gambling affiliate programs in our

1,700 gambling affiliate programs in our 1,700 gambling affiliate programs in our app in the last four years, and we've

app in the last four years, and we've app in the last four years, and we've closed close to a thousand. That's a

closed close to a thousand. That's a closed close to a thousand. That's a lot. So, the closed stuff is quite a

lot. So, the closed stuff is quite a lot. So, the closed stuff is quite a bit. And imagine a link tool that says

bit. And imagine a link tool that says bit. And imagine a link tool that says that just does it automatically for you.

that just does it automatically for you. that just does it automatically for you. Like when the brands close, it

Like when the brands close, it Like when the brands close, it redirects. Or it gives you some sort of

redirects. Or it gives you some sort of redirects. Or it gives you some sort of programmatic logic like, "Hey, I'm going

programmatic logic like, "Hey, I'm going programmatic logic like, "Hey, I'm going to redirect to my top three brands." Or

to redirect to my top three brands." Or to redirect to my top three brands." Or if someone clicks on a link, it's, "Hey, if someone clicks on a link, it's, "Hey, if someone clicks on a link, it's, "Hey, this brand's closed, but here are three

this brand's closed, but here are three this brand's closed, but here are three other relevant offers." Assuming you're

other relevant offers." Assuming you're other relevant offers." Assuming you're on the same product chain. Yeah, there's

on the same product chain. Yeah, there's on the same product chain. Yeah, there's quite a bit to do there. Even with the

quite a bit to do there. Even with the quite a bit to do there. Even with the last one, if you have the EPC data, the

last one, if you have the EPC data, the last one, if you have the EPC data, the earnings per click as well, you can even

earnings per click as well, you can even earnings per click as well, you can even instead of being closed almost say, hey,

instead of being closed almost say, hey, instead of being closed almost say, hey, if this one might even be better for you

if this one might even be better for you if this one might even be better for you to promote because it's both a bingo

to promote because it's both a bingo to promote because it's both a bingo slot machine, it's both in the same geo

slot machine, it's both in the same geo slot machine, it's both in the same geo and you don't have it yet. I see on your

and you don't have it yet. I see on your and you don't have it yet. I see on your page that could also be gamechanging for

page that could also be gamechanging for page that could also be gamechanging for publishers. Yeah, the recommendation

publishers. Yeah, the recommendation publishers. Yeah, the recommendation engine is something we want to get into.

engine is something we want to get into. engine is something we want to get into. So we are building also a list of for i

So we are building also a list of for i So we are building also a list of for i gaming to start is like all the brands

gaming to start is like all the brands gaming to start is like all the brands all the data points with each brand like

all the data points with each brand like all the data points with each brand like deposit withdrawal methods games

deposit withdrawal methods games deposit withdrawal methods games currencies languages terms and

currencies languages terms and currencies languages terms and conditions licenses and then it's all

conditions licenses and then it's all conditions licenses and then it's all the offers they have in each language in

the offers they have in each language in the offers they have in each language in each market. So it's a giant database

each market. So it's a giant database each market. So it's a giant database but we want it so you can first search

but we want it so you can first search but we want it so you can first search for hey I promote free spins in Chile in

for hey I promote free spins in Chile in for hey I promote free spins in Chile in Spanish. Can I find more of them? Of

Spanish. Can I find more of them? Of Spanish. Can I find more of them? Of course. So that's the first part of the

course. So that's the first part of the course. So that's the first part of the recommendation engine, but that will

recommendation engine, but that will recommendation engine, but that will also be a foundation for adtech because

also be a foundation for adtech because also be a foundation for adtech because it's you've seen this before. If you use

it's you've seen this before. If you use it's you've seen this before. If you use say affiliate table or lasso or some

say affiliate table or lasso or some say affiliate table or lasso or some WordPress ad tech, it's like you have to

WordPress ad tech, it's like you have to WordPress ad tech, it's like you have to put in the logos of the offers and you

put in the logos of the offers and you put in the logos of the offers and you then have to maintain all of this as a

then have to maintain all of this as a then have to maintain all of this as a database. So we're looking to do this as

database. So we're looking to do this as database. So we're looking to do this as like a one-stop shop where it's the pain

like a one-stop shop where it's the pain like a one-stop shop where it's the pain point. You're an affiliate manager and

point. You're an affiliate manager and point. You're an affiliate manager and you want your affiliates to change all you want your affiliates to change all you want your affiliates to change all the offers. It's like you email them and

the offers. It's like you email them and the offers. It's like you email them and you pray that in six months half of them

you pray that in six months half of them you pray that in six months half of them have done that work and then if you're

have done that work and then if you're have done that work and then if you're the affiliate you're like wait a minute the affiliate you're like wait a minute the affiliate you're like wait a minute we all have to do the same work and

we all have to do the same work and we all have to do the same work and whoever doesn't do it the affiliate and

whoever doesn't do it the affiliate and whoever doesn't do it the affiliate and the operator they're you're suffering

the operator they're you're suffering the operator they're you're suffering more losses and commission. Yeah it's

more losses and commission. Yeah it's more losses and commission. Yeah it's weird to try to put this all in a single

weird to try to put this all in a single weird to try to put this all in a single CRM but we modeled it in Monday and

CRM but we modeled it in Monday and CRM but we modeled it in Monday and we're like wait a minute we can do this

we're like wait a minute we can do this we're like wait a minute we can do this better as an app. So we'll have to show

better as an app. So we'll have to show better as an app. So we'll have to show you some stuff and get your feedback for

you some stuff and get your feedback for you some stuff and get your feedback for sure. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. What do you

sure. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. What do you sure. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think we should be moving towards think we should be moving towards think we should be moving towards streaming of data for affiliates? So

streaming of data for affiliates? So streaming of data for affiliates? So what I mean by that is many programs

what I mean by that is many programs what I mean by that is many programs that give you data every 24 hours like

that give you data every 24 hours like that give you data every 24 hours like in the back end saying here's your in the back end saying here's your in the back end saying here's your clicks, here's your sales, here's your clicks, here's your sales, here's your clicks, here's your sales, here's your revenue, but I think streaming could be

revenue, but I think streaming could be revenue, but I think streaming could be a powerful thing and same thing for the

a powerful thing and same thing for the a powerful thing and same thing for the concept of click IDs. You're using we

concept of click IDs. You're using we concept of click IDs. You're using we can track. I think they have more can track. I think they have more can track. I think they have more advanced tracking than other platforms.

advanced tracking than other platforms. advanced tracking than other platforms. Do you see this space moving into both

Do you see this space moving into both Do you see this space moving into both streaming of data and we're going to streaming of data and we're going to streaming of data and we're going to have like maybe this future click ID

have like maybe this future click ID have like maybe this future click ID system where you can actually do high

system where you can actually do high system where you can actually do high level attribution of your traffic. Yeah.

level attribution of your traffic. Yeah. level attribution of your traffic. Yeah. So with streaming you mean instant

So with streaming you mean instant So with streaming you mean instant access to the data, right? Instead of

access to the data, right? Instead of access to the data, right? Instead of Yeah. Almost like a web hook but it's

Yeah. Almost like a web hook but it's Yeah. Almost like a web hook but it's like you don't need the web hook because like you don't need the web hook because like you don't need the web hook because it's instant. So you just get the data

it's instant. So you just get the data it's instant. So you just get the data fed into your back end whether it's

fed into your back end whether it's fed into your back end whether it's stone we can track or you build

stone we can track or you build stone we can track or you build something bespoke.

something bespoke. something bespoke. Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is

Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is basically do we want faster data? Yes.

basically do we want faster data? Yes. basically do we want faster data? Yes. The faster the better. But I even have

The faster the better. But I even have The faster the better. But I even have sometimes networks they screw up and the

sometimes networks they screw up and the sometimes networks they screw up and the data comes in 48 hours or 3 days later

data comes in 48 hours or 3 days later data comes in 48 hours or 3 days later and then all the ad platforms they get

and then all the ad platforms they get and then all the ad platforms they get feedback and they think oh no

feedback and they think oh no feedback and they think oh no conversions and I have row campaign and

conversions and I have row campaign and conversions and I have row campaign and they just the ad spending stops and I'm

they just the ad spending stops and I'm they just the ad spending stops and I'm like a not again. They have also data

like a not again. They have also data like a not again. They have also data based on previous previous time periods.

based on previous previous time periods. based on previous previous time periods. So it it So it it So it it sits for a while too because they don't

sits for a while too because they don't sits for a while too because they don't are afraid to get spending up because

are afraid to get spending up because are afraid to get spending up because they're all automated for these they're all automated for these they're all automated for these campaigns. So the faster the better.

campaigns. So the faster the better. campaigns. So the faster the better. Also when you do any new campaigns when

Also when you do any new campaigns when Also when you do any new campaigns when you're just testing things out is okay

you're just testing things out is okay you're just testing things out is okay cool. Is it helping already? Is it

cool. Is it helping already? Is it cool. Is it helping already? Is it helping? You can pass things things

helping? You can pass things things helping? You can pass things things faster. And the second thing with the

faster. And the second thing with the faster. And the second thing with the click IDs that just makes sure all the

click IDs that just makes sure all the click IDs that just makes sure all the data is more granular and that's how you

data is more granular and that's how you data is more granular and that's how you win by an affiliate because you're win by an affiliate because you're win by an affiliate because you're competing with brands with others and

competing with brands with others and competing with brands with others and have bigger margins by default. The more

have bigger margins by default. The more have bigger margins by default. The more specific data we have the better because

specific data we have the better because specific data we have the better because we need to find all these gaps that are

we need to find all these gaps that are we need to find all these gaps that are still open. If I have better data on

still open. If I have better data on still open. If I have better data on every product page, product on the page,

every product page, product on the page, every product page, product on the page, channel, device, etc. I know exactly

channel, device, etc. I know exactly channel, device, etc. I know exactly where I need to spend and that helps me

where I need to spend and that helps me where I need to spend and that helps me and that is what sets that clickb apart.

and that is what sets that clickb apart. and that is what sets that clickb apart. So I definitely think it's both

So I definitely think it's both So I definitely think it's both basically can I make the feedback loop

basically can I make the feedback loop basically can I make the feedback loop faster and more detailed and again what

faster and more detailed and again what faster and more detailed and again what I said before every little improvement

I said before every little improvement I said before every little improvement that is your profit margin. Yeah, I can

that is your profit margin. Yeah, I can that is your profit margin. Yeah, I can only be a fan. Yeah, I think one of the

only be a fan. Yeah, I think one of the only be a fan. Yeah, I think one of the issues when it comes to affiliate issues when it comes to affiliate issues when it comes to affiliate networks is sometimes they're working

networks is sometimes they're working networks is sometimes they're working with multiple affiliate programs. So

with multiple affiliate programs. So with multiple affiliate programs. So they're aggregating the data. So they're aggregating the data. So they're aggregating the data. So sometimes that data comes in maybe every

sometimes that data comes in maybe every sometimes that data comes in maybe every 24 hours, but sometimes there's

24 hours, but sometimes there's 24 hours, but sometimes there's reconciliation of the data which is in

reconciliation of the data which is in reconciliation of the data which is in three days. So maybe that's why they

three days. So maybe that's why they three days. So maybe that's why they actually don't want to feed the data. actually don't want to feed the data. actually don't want to feed the data. But I actually see it as one of the big

But I actually see it as one of the big But I actually see it as one of the big pain points where people that have

pain points where people that have pain points where people that have talked to us and said, "Hey guys, can talked to us and said, "Hey guys, can talked to us and said, "Hey guys, can you build us affiliate network you build us affiliate network you build us affiliate network software?" Almost all of them are saying

software?" Almost all of them are saying software?" Almost all of them are saying that look, we don't want to have this that look, we don't want to have this that look, we don't want to have this one or two day gap. we want to have it

one or two day gap. we want to have it one or two day gap. we want to have it so we have the data because it's either

so we have the data because it's either so we have the data because it's either affiliates accept that we don't have the

affiliates accept that we don't have the affiliates accept that we don't have the data coming in on real time or anything

data coming in on real time or anything data coming in on real time or anything reasonable or it's they expect it and

reasonable or it's they expect it and reasonable or it's they expect it and they think that the second that you with

they think that the second that you with they think that the second that you with withhold any data they're actually

withhold any data they're actually withhold any data they're actually questioning you they're not questioning

questioning you they're not questioning questioning you they're not questioning the affiliate program they're the affiliate program they're the affiliate program they're questioning you as a network going

questioning you as a network going questioning you as a network going you're the aggregator here it's like why

you're the aggregator here it's like why you're the aggregator here it's like why are you not showing me the data and

are you not showing me the data and are you not showing me the data and that's actually yeah a big pain I'm

that's actually yeah a big pain I'm that's actually yeah a big pain I'm hearing

hearing hearing yeah I have it often too I always go to

yeah I have it often too I always go to yeah I have it often too I always go to my affiliate tracking software, not

my affiliate tracking software, not my affiliate tracking software, not because I think they're at fault, but

because I think they're at fault, but because I think they're at fault, but they have faster response and a better

they have faster response and a better they have faster response and a better response than the network. So, they

response than the network. So, they response than the network. So, they always know the middleman. Hey, no, so

always know the middleman. Hey, no, so always know the middleman. Hey, no, so we're not we can't send it through. Oh,

we're not we can't send it through. Oh, we're not we can't send it through. Oh, your site because it's even being sent

your site because it's even being sent your site because it's even being sent out a request. I do think as a tracking

out a request. I do think as a tracking out a request. I do think as a tracking software you have this responsibility to

software you have this responsibility to software you have this responsibility to know but that is because you see and

know but that is because you see and know but that is because you see and everything what's happening. So I think

everything what's happening. So I think everything what's happening. So I think it's only strong and I'm only happy

it's only strong and I'm only happy it's only strong and I'm only happy tracking solware that they always know

tracking solware that they always know tracking solware that they always know the answer because are so on top of it

the answer because are so on top of it the answer because are so on top of it and I get a fast response. So that is

and I get a fast response. So that is and I get a fast response. So that is why I stay a customer. So and for us the

why I stay a customer. So and for us the why I stay a customer. So and for us the irony is that we do this all the time

irony is that we do this all the time irony is that we do this all the time like we're answering these questions and

like we're answering these questions and like we're answering these questions and if we don't answer it one we always will

if we don't answer it one we always will if we don't answer it one we always will answer it but two sometimes they think

answer it but two sometimes they think answer it but two sometimes they think we're broken and then when we explain

we're broken and then when we explain we're broken and then when we explain like what's running behind the scenes of

like what's running behind the scenes of like what's running behind the scenes of why the data isn't there or why like

why the data isn't there or why like why the data isn't there or why like something we explain it and then we're something we explain it and then we're something we explain it and then we're like oh I had no idea and then they now

like oh I had no idea and then they now like oh I had no idea and then they now trust us. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you

trust us. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you trust us. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you see oh they're on top of stuff the

see oh they're on top of stuff the see oh they're on top of stuff the knowledge evolved. out. That's great.

knowledge evolved. out. That's great. knowledge evolved. out. That's great. Okay, so there's the stat floating

Okay, so there's the stat floating Okay, so there's the stat floating around that I think the affiliate

around that I think the affiliate around that I think the affiliate marketing industry will be worth marketing industry will be worth marketing industry will be worth something like $ 36 billion by 2030. And

something like $ 36 billion by 2030. And something like $ 36 billion by 2030. And I like asking this question every once

I like asking this question every once I like asking this question every once in a while. Knowing what you know about in a while. Knowing what you know about in a while. Knowing what you know about affiliate marketing going, hey, if we

affiliate marketing going, hey, if we affiliate marketing going, hey, if we improve X, Y, and Zed and if we do this

improve X, Y, and Zed and if we do this improve X, Y, and Zed and if we do this in let's say 5 years, do you think that

in let's say 5 years, do you think that in let's say 5 years, do you think that this number of 36 billion, we could

this number of 36 billion, we could this number of 36 billion, we could double it or do something greater than?

double it or do something greater than? double it or do something greater than? Because I think that I forget what the

Because I think that I forget what the Because I think that I forget what the words are. It's like this C A G R like

words are. It's like this C A G R like words are. It's like this C A G R like we have this compound growth that just

we have this compound growth that just we have this compound growth that just do does this but maybe if things get

do does this but maybe if things get do does this but maybe if things get better and automated maybe this could be

better and automated maybe this could be better and automated maybe this could be maybe we could double this 36 billion.

maybe we could double this 36 billion. maybe we could double this 36 billion. What are your thoughts on this

interesting? I think on the one side, interesting? I think on the one side, yes, tracking software can help make

yes, tracking software can help make yes, tracking software can help make people have better

people have better people have better decisions, but there are also a lot of

decisions, but there are also a lot of decisions, but there are also a lot of factors against us like the death of

factors against us like the death of factors against us like the death of universal analytics, Facebook and

universal analytics, Facebook and universal analytics, Facebook and cookies, Apple becoming more privacy

cookies, Apple becoming more privacy cookies, Apple becoming more privacy focused. So, it's nice that you guys

focused. So, it's nice that you guys focused. So, it's nice that you guys provide first party data and help it.

provide first party data and help it. provide first party data and help it. There are a lot of aspects against it. I

There are a lot of aspects against it. I There are a lot of aspects against it. I think the growth of the affiliate

think the growth of the affiliate think the growth of the affiliate channel as a whole will more be

channel as a whole will more be channel as a whole will more be determined by the

determined by the determined by the quality and the strategies and

quality and the strategies and quality and the strategies and entrepreneurs as

entrepreneurs as entrepreneurs as publishers cuz that is like just as a

publishers cuz that is like just as a publishers cuz that is like just as a marketer you have traffic at the top

marketer you have traffic at the top marketer you have traffic at the top line and that is the top line you know

line and that is the top line you know line and that is the top line you know what I mean you can do amazing ass job

what I mean you can do amazing ass job what I mean you can do amazing ass job but still the act real growth will be in

but still the act real growth will be in but still the act real growth will be in the top line so to say so I definitely

the top line so to say so I definitely the top line so to say so I definitely think you help the industry forward But

think you help the industry forward But think you help the industry forward But again, I am super happy with that.

again, I am super happy with that. again, I am super happy with that. Without software like you, you're not

Without software like you, you're not Without software like you, you're not even able to do advertising spend. So

even able to do advertising spend. So even able to do advertising spend. So that is definitely fuel on the fire. But

that is definitely fuel on the fire. But that is definitely fuel on the fire. But yeah, it will also be mainly determined

yeah, it will also be mainly determined yeah, it will also be mainly determined by the quality of the publishers and how

by the quality of the publishers and how by the quality of the publishers and how much people are also getting into it.

much people are also getting into it. much people are also getting into it. SEO as industry will be dying because

SEO as industry will be dying because SEO as industry will be dying because the whole the whole yeah, how do you

the whole the whole yeah, how do you the whole the whole yeah, how do you call it? The atmosphere is not nice

call it? The atmosphere is not nice call it? The atmosphere is not nice anymore. It was a party. Everybody was

anymore. It was a party. Everybody was anymore. It was a party. Everybody was drunk and now it's everybody's hangover

drunk and now it's everybody's hangover drunk and now it's everybody's hangover and oh, I'm never going to drink again.

and oh, I'm never going to drink again. and oh, I'm never going to drink again. I'm never going to rank bench again. I'm

I'm never going to rank bench again. I'm I'm never going to rank bench again. I'm quitting. I love it. That's probably

quitting. I love it. That's probably quitting. I love it. That's probably going to be the only sound bite I need

going to be the only sound bite I need going to be the only sound bite I need from this recording to share on social

from this recording to share on social from this recording to share on social because it's so because it's so because it's so true. Neils, as an investor and

true. Neils, as an investor and true. Neils, as an investor and affiliate marketing expert, sure you'd

affiliate marketing expert, sure you'd affiliate marketing expert, sure you'd like to check out the stats strong pitch

like to check out the stats strong pitch like to check out the stats strong pitch deck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I do

deck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I do deck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I do investments now mostly with my time

investments now mostly with my time investments now mostly with my time because as the stock market is not very

because as the stock market is not very because as the stock market is not very great so I like to have something good

great so I like to have something good great so I like to have something good cash on the side but if you take a value

cash on the side but if you take a value cash on the side but if you take a value send it over definitely chat and it's

send it over definitely chat and it's send it over definitely chat and it's you know it goes without saying it's you know it goes without saying it's you know it goes without saying it's it's been a really good chat just

it's been a really good chat just it's been a really good chat just following you in the background but following you in the background but following you in the background but knowing what you're about and I actually

knowing what you're about and I actually knowing what you're about and I actually think we need more people like you in think we need more people like you in think we need more people like you in affiliate marketing that that can

affiliate marketing that that can affiliate marketing that that can basically dissect the business from

basically dissect the business from basically dissect the business from either the affiliate publisher side as

either the affiliate publisher side as either the affiliate publisher side as well as the operator side like we we

well as the operator side like we we well as the operator side like we we talked about what's broken in affiliate

talked about what's broken in affiliate talked about what's broken in affiliate marketing today. And another answer that

marketing today. And another answer that marketing today. And another answer that I've got for that one is I think a lot

I've got for that one is I think a lot I've got for that one is I think a lot of affiliate managers are coming into

of affiliate managers are coming into of affiliate managers are coming into these operations. And it's sales first.

these operations. And it's sales first. these operations. And it's sales first. It's not relationship building with both

It's not relationship building with both It's not relationship building with both the affiliate as well as the customer.

the affiliate as well as the customer. the affiliate as well as the customer. And I think I think there's a lot being

And I think I think there's a lot being And I think I think there's a lot being lost where it's okay, yeah, sales is

lost where it's okay, yeah, sales is lost where it's okay, yeah, sales is great, but I get frustrated with the

great, but I get frustrated with the great, but I get frustrated with the outreach. Think about how much how many

outreach. Think about how much how many outreach. Think about how much how many outreach messages you get of people

outreach messages you get of people outreach messages you get of people saying, "Hey, I want you to join the saying, "Hey, I want you to join the saying, "Hey, I want you to join the program." and they're just like then

program." and they're just like then program." and they're just like then they're not speaking to you in the way

they're not speaking to you in the way they're not speaking to you in the way like you want to you probably want to like you want to you probably want to like you want to you probably want to critique their email and be like listen

critique their email and be like listen critique their email and be like listen you're doing it wrong. Yeah, it is so

you're doing it wrong. Yeah, it is so you're doing it wrong. Yeah, it is so bad. The the worst I even find is just

bad. The the worst I even find is just bad. The the worst I even find is just those invites via affiliate network

those invites via affiliate network those invites via affiliate network where it's just like some irrelevant

where it's just like some irrelevant where it's just like some irrelevant company that that wants to work together

company that that wants to work together company that that wants to work together and because there's so much bad

and because there's so much bad and because there's so much bad outreach, you almost feel less inclined

outreach, you almost feel less inclined outreach, you almost feel less inclined to really listen to other outreach.

to really listen to other outreach. to really listen to other outreach. Unless it's proper personal, hey, I am a

Unless it's proper personal, hey, I am a Unless it's proper personal, hey, I am a dog food brand. You have this top

dog food brand. You have this top dog food brand. You have this top ranking dog food page. I am here to talk

ranking dog food page. I am here to talk ranking dog food page. I am here to talk about commissions. We have a unique

about commissions. We have a unique about commissions. We have a unique value proposition. So, let's talk. Then

value proposition. So, let's talk. Then value proposition. So, let's talk. Then I'm like, hey, cool. Yeah, that makes

I'm like, hey, cool. Yeah, that makes I'm like, hey, cool. Yeah, that makes sense. But else if just, hey, let's work

sense. But else if just, hey, let's work sense. But else if just, hey, let's work together. I'm like, I don't even have

together. I'm like, I don't even have together. I'm like, I don't even have crypto websites, so why are you pitching

crypto websites, so why are you pitching crypto websites, so why are you pitching me your crypto offers? Yeah. Or the

me your crypto offers? Yeah. Or the me your crypto offers? Yeah. Or the worst is in the gambling space when we

worst is in the gambling space when we worst is in the gambling space when we used to run our affiliate sites, we'd

used to run our affiliate sites, we'd used to run our affiliate sites, we'd have 2,000 casinos. We had all of them

have 2,000 casinos. We had all of them have 2,000 casinos. We had all of them listed, but all affiliate managers all

listed, but all affiliate managers all listed, but all affiliate managers all wanted the number one spot. I'm like,

wanted the number one spot. I'm like, wanted the number one spot. I'm like, you think we don't get that question

you think we don't get that question you think we don't get that question often? And what anytime I tried telling

often? And what anytime I tried telling often? And what anytime I tried telling them it's so frustrating I bake the

them it's so frustrating I bake the them it's so frustrating I bake the pages the three channels on where we

pages the three channels on where we pages the three channels on where we would deliver you the most valuable

would deliver you the most valuable would deliver you the most valuable players and the most players was our

players and the most players was our players and the most players was our newsletter not the homepage but two

newsletter not the homepage but two newsletter not the homepage but two other pages and then the review page

other pages and then the review page other pages and then the review page itself was doing does pretty good but

itself was doing does pretty good but itself was doing does pretty good but the newsletter was like instant big you

the newsletter was like instant big you the newsletter was like instant big you just talk to me the right way and it's just talk to me the right way and it's just talk to me the right way and it's if I like you I'd actually be like let's if I like you I'd actually be like let's if I like you I'd actually be like let's just do a newsletter blast like I'm just do a newsletter blast like I'm just do a newsletter blast like I'm actually doing them a favor and then of

actually doing them a favor and then of actually doing them a favor and then of course it's doing me a favor but I'm

course it's doing me a favor but I'm course it's doing me a favor but I'm just surprised no one's actually chasing

just surprised no one's actually chasing just surprised no one's actually chasing what I think is ideal feel like a

what I think is ideal feel like a what I think is ideal feel like a newsletter for example, it's like why

newsletter for example, it's like why newsletter for example, it's like why not start there? Like you your message

not start there? Like you your message not start there? Like you your message will bypass all the other space junk

will bypass all the other space junk will bypass all the other space junk that's floating out there. Yeah. Yeah.

that's floating out there. Yeah. Yeah. that's floating out there. Yeah. Yeah. And I also liked what you said. If you

And I also liked what you said. If you And I also liked what you said. If you idiot, if you like someone and you have

idiot, if you like someone and you have idiot, if you like someone and you have fun conversation with them, I am so much

fun conversation with them, I am so much fun conversation with them, I am so much more inclined to just you know what

more inclined to just you know what more inclined to just you know what normally if I didn't know you, I

normally if I didn't know you, I normally if I didn't know you, I wouldn't put you on this position, but

wouldn't put you on this position, but wouldn't put you on this position, but let's just test it out and you have the

let's just test it out and you have the let's just test it out and you have the benefit of the doubt and we start high

benefit of the doubt and we start high benefit of the doubt and we start high and then we look at the numbers and and then we look at the numbers and and then we look at the numbers and maybe I give you some feedback too on

maybe I give you some feedback too on maybe I give you some feedback too on your page so you prove the numbers so

your page so you prove the numbers so your page so you prove the numbers so you actually are deserving of top three

you actually are deserving of top three you actually are deserving of top three spots. Well, normally you you you start

spots. Well, normally you you you start spots. Well, normally you you you start at number seven. Yeah, it is definitely

at number seven. Yeah, it is definitely at number seven. Yeah, it is definitely a thing because we're humans. We're not

a thing because we're humans. We're not a thing because we're humans. We're not rational. We're just Yeah, we're not

rational. We're just Yeah, we're not rational. We're just Yeah, we're not just not fully rational. Yeah, we're

just not fully rational. Yeah, we're just not fully rational. Yeah, we're emotional, but we try to pretend like

emotional, but we try to pretend like emotional, but we try to pretend like there's a logic behind that emotion when

there's a logic behind that emotion when there's a logic behind that emotion when you use the logic to justify the

you use the logic to justify the you use the logic to justify the emotion.

emotion. emotion. Yeah. Two rapidfire questions. Do you

Yeah. Two rapidfire questions. Do you Yeah. Two rapidfire questions. Do you think there's a need for education for

think there's a need for education for think there's a need for education for affiliate managers? And then the second

affiliate managers? And then the second affiliate managers? And then the second part of that as a rapidfire question, do

part of that as a rapidfire question, do part of that as a rapidfire question, do you think there could be any threats to

you think there could be any threats to you think there could be any threats to the affiliate manager position as we get

the affiliate manager position as we get the affiliate manager position as we get into AI or maybe more networks make

into AI or maybe more networks make into AI or maybe more networks make these jobs obsolete? Like where do you these jobs obsolete? Like where do you these jobs obsolete? Like where do you see the space going?

see the space going? see the space going? Yeah. So the first question, do

Yeah. So the first question, do Yeah. So the first question, do affiliate managers need better

affiliate managers need better affiliate managers need better education? Yes. Yes, I think so. It is

education? Yes. Yes, I think so. It is education? Yes. Yes, I think so. It is just oh let's just send out a few emails

just oh let's just send out a few emails just oh let's just send out a few emails and see if it works or not. They're not

and see if it works or not. They're not and see if it works or not. They're not really thinking as marketers or they're

really thinking as marketers or they're really thinking as marketers or they're not being critical about their offer.

not being critical about their offer. not being critical about their offer. Also for them sales is not just sales.

Also for them sales is not just sales. Also for them sales is not just sales. There's also a marketing aspect if they

There's also a marketing aspect if they There's also a marketing aspect if they can get exposure that can help other

can get exposure that can help other can get exposure that can help other they are in the end a marketer. So that

they are in the end a marketer. So that they are in the end a marketer. So that could help the rest of their marketing could help the rest of their marketing could help the rest of their marketing team with their targets as well. It is

team with their targets as well. It is team with their targets as well. It is sales, it is outreach. So you have to be

sales, it is outreach. So you have to be sales, it is outreach. So you have to be on top of that as well. I am even

on top of that as well. I am even on top of that as well. I am even thinking of creating an affiliate

thinking of creating an affiliate thinking of creating an affiliate management agency because I am from the

management agency because I am from the management agency because I am from the publisher side and I know what I like to

publisher side and I know what I like to publisher side and I know what I like to hear to receive why I will choose person

hear to receive why I will choose person hear to receive why I will choose person offers over other offers and I just

offers over other offers and I just offers over other offers and I just don't see a lot of companies picking up

don't see a lot of companies picking up don't see a lot of companies picking up affiliate marketing seriously enough and

affiliate marketing seriously enough and affiliate marketing seriously enough and then there's also the old problem of

then there's also the old problem of then there's also the old problem of okay yes let's for instance do

okay yes let's for instance do okay yes let's for instance do advertising but how do you hire a good

advertising but how do you hire a good advertising but how do you hire a good advertiser you know what I mean so you

advertiser you know what I mean so you advertiser you know what I mean so you get an agency same with affiliate

get an agency same with affiliate get an agency same with affiliate management. That is the first thing.

management. That is the first thing. management. That is the first thing. Second

Second Second was what's the question again? Yeah. Do

was what's the question again? Yeah. Do was what's the question again? Yeah. Do you think there's like a threat to you think there's like a threat to you think there's like a threat to affiliate manager jobs if if we have

affiliate manager jobs if if we have affiliate manager jobs if if we have better automation or maybe like someone

better automation or maybe like someone better automation or maybe like someone could do an agency better and just be

could do an agency better and just be could do an agency better and just be look if your agency is able to 10x the

look if your agency is able to 10x the look if your agency is able to 10x the results rather than these other

results rather than these other results rather than these other affiliate managers using spray and prey

affiliate managers using spray and prey affiliate managers using spray and prey techniques. Do you think yeah this job

techniques. Do you think yeah this job techniques. Do you think yeah this job is at risk of being replaced by someone

is at risk of being replaced by someone is at risk of being replaced by someone else or automated or done at scale?

else or automated or done at scale? else or automated or done at scale? No, in the end it's sales and account

No, in the end it's sales and account No, in the end it's sales and account management and that is such a human job.

management and that is such a human job. management and that is such a human job. We just talked about how we could have

We just talked about how we could have We just talked about how we could have relied someone will put their offer high

relied someone will put their offer high relied someone will put their offer high on their page and that that comes from a

on their page and that that comes from a on their page and that that comes from a conversation but comes from a love and

conversation but comes from a love and conversation but comes from a love and then you give that person the benefit of

then you give that person the benefit of then you give that person the benefit of the doubt. So I don't think it will be the doubt. So I don't think it will be the doubt. So I don't think it will be replaced by hype. I think a lot of

replaced by hype. I think a lot of replaced by hype. I think a lot of tooling will help and in the end but

tooling will help and in the end but tooling will help and in the end but that's with everything with AI. If

that's with everything with AI. If that's with everything with AI. If instances get more of an edge and more

instances get more of an edge and more instances get more of an edge and more of an advantage via

of an advantage via of an advantage via AI, then it would still be the case that

AI, then it would still be the case that AI, then it would still be the case that yes, maybe you have less smaller

yes, maybe you have less smaller yes, maybe you have less smaller players, but then that relationship

players, but then that relationship players, but then that relationship would still be super important to make

would still be super important to make would still be super important to make it top of mind to listen to the

it top of mind to listen to the it top of mind to listen to the publisher and make that offer good and

publisher and make that offer good and publisher and make that offer good and then to be cost to leverage those

then to be cost to leverage those then to be cost to leverage those relationships and be the person in the

relationships and be the person in the relationships and be the person in the middle and yeah, have that. No, I think

middle and yeah, have that. No, I think middle and yeah, have that. No, I think it will be enhanced. I think again the

it will be enhanced. I think again the it will be enhanced. I think again the boring stuff you can get rid of that.

boring stuff you can get rid of that. boring stuff you can get rid of that. Yeah, maybe with email and outreach tool

Yeah, maybe with email and outreach tool Yeah, maybe with email and outreach tool and better for that. But you still need

and better for that. But you still need and better for that. But you still need to be a good account manager, build

to be a good account manager, build to be a good account manager, build relationship, have fun. And that is also

relationship, have fun. And that is also relationship, have fun. And that is also why these conferences like affiliate

why these conferences like affiliate why these conferences like affiliate world, it's so much partying, it's so

world, it's so much partying, it's so world, it's so much partying, it's so much ranking, it's so exclusive invite

much ranking, it's so exclusive invite much ranking, it's so exclusive invite only parties. Sounds terrible. That is

only parties. Sounds terrible. That is only parties. Sounds terrible. That is where the deals happen. Yeah. Yeah. I

where the deals happen. Yeah. Yeah. I where the deals happen. Yeah. Yeah. I like it when people guess give me

like it when people guess give me like it when people guess give me answers that I think are opposite of

answers that I think are opposite of answers that I think are opposite of what I thought because I actually think

what I thought because I actually think what I thought because I actually think affiliate manager jobs could be at risk.

affiliate manager jobs could be at risk. affiliate manager jobs could be at risk. But I actually think you're also right

But I actually think you're also right But I actually think you're also right that it's the personal relationships.

that it's the personal relationships. that it's the personal relationships. Hopefully this changes and like you

Hopefully this changes and like you Hopefully this changes and like you said, you send the right message and you

said, you send the right message and you said, you send the right message and you know what, I'm not going to give you know what, I'm not going to give you know what, I'm not going to give you this package where you have to pay to

this package where you have to pay to this package where you have to pay to play. I'm just going to gonna put you in

play. I'm just going to gonna put you in play. I'm just going to gonna put you in the newsletter and we're just going to

the newsletter and we're just going to the newsletter and we're just going to get started because you stand out and

get started because you stand out and get started because you stand out and you want to connect to that person.

you want to connect to that person. you want to connect to that person. Yeah. Yeah. And I do get what you think.

Yeah. Yeah. And I do get what you think. Yeah. Yeah. And I do get what you think. Definitely think the level of manages

Definitely think the level of manages Definitely think the level of manages could be replaced, right?

could be replaced, right? could be replaced, right? Because spray and pray work and they're

Because spray and pray work and they're Because spray and pray work and they're not really any

any better tools for instance or any better tools for instance or automated AI agent, but yeah, the real

automated AI agent, but yeah, the real automated AI agent, but yeah, the real relationships. I'll chat with you after

relationships. I'll chat with you after relationships. I'll chat with you after about the agency because you touched

about the agency because you touched about the agency because you touched upon something there and I think there's upon something there and I think there's upon something there and I think there's a massive opportunity there but I want

a massive opportunity there but I want a massive opportunity there but I want to pivot to the last question which is

to pivot to the last question which is to pivot to the last question which is what do you see of the future of what do you see of the future of what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects

affiliate marketing as it intersects affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence.

I do like that question. So I really I do like that question. So I really thought about section of affiliate

thought about section of affiliate thought about section of affiliate marketing and

marketing and marketing and business. I definitely think that again

business. I definitely think that again business. I definitely think that again beginners really lack these parts. If

beginners really lack these parts. If beginners really lack these parts. If you know about a tracking tool and you

you know about a tracking tool and you you know about a tracking tool and you have some comprehension of how to use

have some comprehension of how to use have some comprehension of how to use metrics and an understanding of the

metrics and an understanding of the metrics and an understanding of the numbers, you can work with it. I hope

numbers, you can work with it. I hope numbers, you can work with it. I hope more tracking tools will do a better job

more tracking tools will do a better job more tracking tools will do a better job educating people on what to do with the

educating people on what to do with the educating people on what to do with the numbers and why they are essential. I

numbers and why they are essential. I numbers and why they are essential. I think that will definitely help. But

think that will definitely help. But think that will definitely help. But where do I see the future heading? on

where do I see the future heading? on where do I see the future heading? on again on one part it's against us as in

again on one part it's against us as in again on one part it's against us as in Apple becomes more privacy

Apple becomes more privacy Apple becomes more privacy sensitive all this GDPR cookie banner

sensitive all this GDPR cookie banner sensitive all this GDPR cookie banner excuse my English Google ads

excuse my English Google ads excuse my English Google ads not giving you all the keywords even

not giving you all the keywords even not giving you all the keywords even though you pay for it all that stuff but

though you pay for it all that stuff but though you pay for it all that stuff but with the affiliate tracking software

with the affiliate tracking software with the affiliate tracking software things will get a proper upgrade and

things will get a proper upgrade and things will get a proper upgrade and data will get more

data will get more data will get more granular and that is basically what I

granular and that is basically what I granular and that is basically what I would like to see is more EPC data EPC

would like to see is more EPC data EPC would like to see is more EPC data EPC per page, by device, by channel.

per page, by device, by channel. per page, by device, by channel. Ideally, even a heat map for you to see

Ideally, even a heat map for you to see Ideally, even a heat map for you to see how far people scroll and where people

how far people scroll and where people how far people scroll and where people click. You can even see the EPC number

click. You can even see the EPC number click. You can even see the EPC number where every offer. So, it's also easy

where every offer. So, it's also easy where every offer. So, it's also easy for people in my team that are less

for people in my team that are less for people in my team that are less understanding of the data to just say,

understanding of the data to just say, understanding of the data to just say, hey, we want the product with the

hey, we want the product with the hey, we want the product with the highest number at the top. If it has a

highest number at the top. If it has a highest number at the top. If it has a lower number, get rid of it. If it's

lower number, get rid of it. If it's lower number, get rid of it. If it's lowest, just replace it. That will be

lowest, just replace it. That will be lowest, just replace it. That will be very nice. also for more product for the

very nice. also for more product for the very nice. also for more product for the team instead of just in spreadsheets and

team instead of just in spreadsheets and team instead of just in spreadsheets and everything. Lifetime value prediction

everything. Lifetime value prediction everything. Lifetime value prediction for products with a yeah lifetime value

for products with a yeah lifetime value for products with a yeah lifetime value commission software that will be more

commission software that will be more commission software that will be more profit focused instead of just revenue

profit focused instead of just revenue profit focused instead of just revenue focused. You know what? If you also

focused. You know what? If you also focused. You know what? If you also insert things like your content cost,

insert things like your content cost, insert things like your content cost, your link building cost and your your link building cost and your your link building cost and your advertising cost on a page and you don't

advertising cost on a page and you don't advertising cost on a page and you don't even only see the revenue, but also

even only see the revenue, but also even only see the revenue, but also these insert cost and then per month you

these insert cost and then per month you these insert cost and then per month you see how much time it takes for it to be

see how much time it takes for it to be see how much time it takes for it to be to be get a profit. You can even add

to be get a profit. You can even add to be get a profit. You can even add parameters on these pages like writers,

parameters on these pages like writers, parameters on these pages like writers, niche, topics, specific offers if you

niche, topics, specific offers if you niche, topics, specific offers if you really know your over performance

really know your over performance really know your over performance performance and your underperformance.

performance and your underperformance. performance and your underperformance. something which you already mentioned something which you already mentioned something which you already mentioned these alerts are very important not just

these alerts are very important not just these alerts are very important not just generic alerts of all these websites

generic alerts of all these websites generic alerts of all these websites make less money but specific pages even

make less money but specific pages even make less money but specific pages even offers products preferably we also want

offers products preferably we also want offers products preferably we also want to know if even a company gets bankrupt

to know if even a company gets bankrupt to know if even a company gets bankrupt pays too late but also if just the offer

pays too late but also if just the offer pays too late but also if just the offer somehow doesn't convert anymore that

somehow doesn't convert anymore that somehow doesn't convert anymore that will also be very

will also be very will also be very valuable and and then maybe even the

valuable and and then maybe even the valuable and and then maybe even the predictive side what you touched upon on

predictive side what you touched upon on predictive side what you touched upon on is the recommendation. If I have an

is the recommendation. If I have an is the recommendation. If I have an offer and it's working well with you can

offer and it's working well with you can offer and it's working well with you can recommend me. Hey, five other sites in

recommend me. Hey, five other sites in recommend me. Hey, five other sites in Canada or the US North America region

Canada or the US North America region Canada or the US North America region are using this officer offer and it's

are using this officer offer and it's are using this officer offer and it's giving a higher EPC. Try it out. Maybe

giving a higher EPC. Try it out. Maybe giving a higher EPC. Try it out. Maybe you can even get a percentage of the cut

you can even get a percentage of the cut you can even get a percentage of the cut from making that making that

from making that making that from making that making that recommendation and then the difference.

recommendation and then the difference. recommendation and then the difference. That could definitely be cool. So that

That could definitely be cool. So that That could definitely be cool. So that is what I would like the future to go to

is what I would like the future to go to is what I would like the future to go to because in all these data that is where

because in all these data that is where because in all these data that is where you can really be in control of your

you can really be in control of your you can really be in control of your business and you just really want to see

business and you just really want to see business and you just really want to see it like an investment where I'm going to it like an investment where I'm going to it like an investment where I'm going to put more chips in where less and will

put more chips in where less and will put more chips in where less and will that help how can I make it easy for to

that help how can I make it easy for to that help how can I make it easy for to understand because we are very numbers

understand because we are very numbers understand because we are very numbers driven but a lot of my team members are

driven but a lot of my team members are driven but a lot of my team members are not and that is either a lot of

not and that is either a lot of not and that is either a lot of education or we need to make the tooling

education or we need to make the tooling education or we need to make the tooling simpler for them to just see. Oh, that

simpler for them to just see. Oh, that simpler for them to just see. Oh, that that's way bigger and why am I writing

that's way bigger and why am I writing that's way bigger and why am I writing all this content about topic Y if I

all this content about topic Y if I all this content about topic Y if I should be writing about Z example why

should be writing about Z example why should be writing about Z example why promoting this offer 10 cents versus 50

promoting this offer 10 cents versus 50 promoting this offer 10 cents versus 50 cents per click. Oh yeah. Oh, now I

cents per click. Oh yeah. Oh, now I cents per click. Oh yeah. Oh, now I know. Yeah, it's I took a bunch of notes

know. Yeah, it's I took a bunch of notes know. Yeah, it's I took a bunch of notes while you were talking. I think the while you were talking. I think the while you were talking. I think the visualization of the numbers even to

visualization of the numbers even to visualization of the numbers even to superimpose that with both the heat map

superimpose that with both the heat map superimpose that with both the heat map as well as these are all your CTAs.

as well as these are all your CTAs. as well as these are all your CTAs. Imagine being able to mouse over and see

Imagine being able to mouse over and see Imagine being able to mouse over and see the data or see like even a revenue

the data or see like even a revenue the data or see like even a revenue chart. Like you would know exactly what

chart. Like you would know exactly what chart. Like you would know exactly what to change. And I'm not saying you would

to change. And I'm not saying you would to change. And I'm not saying you would ever do this, but you could technically

ever do this, but you could technically ever do this, but you could technically if you want you could even potentially

if you want you could even potentially if you want you could even potentially share that with an affiliate manager to share that with an affiliate manager to share that with an affiliate manager to say this is what you have to do to get

say this is what you have to do to get say this is what you have to do to get inside here or these are the things that

inside here or these are the things that inside here or these are the things that you can do that will help you get inside

you can do that will help you get inside you can do that will help you get inside a better deal or a flat fee or whatever

a better deal or a flat fee or whatever a better deal or a flat fee or whatever it is. It's I think if affiliate

it is. It's I think if affiliate it is. It's I think if affiliate managers saw that that's what they're

managers saw that that's what they're managers saw that that's what they're missing out on. I want the number one missing out on. I want the number one missing out on. I want the number one spot and it's like you can ask for spot and it's like you can ask for spot and it's like you can ask for number one but that could cost a lot but

number one but that could cost a lot but number one but that could cost a lot but I think they're missing out on the I think they're missing out on the I think they're missing out on the visualization that it's like where are

visualization that it's like where are visualization that it's like where are can we understand traffic flowing

can we understand traffic flowing can we understand traffic flowing through a website. Are you missing out

through a website. Are you missing out through a website. Are you missing out on hey here's two pages that you

on hey here's two pages that you on hey here's two pages that you probably will get on that because they

probably will get on that because they probably will get on that because they only have three listings versus 20 on

only have three listings versus 20 on only have three listings versus 20 on the homepage which is like probably

the homepage which is like probably the homepage which is like probably going to cost you money. Yeah. Yeah. And

going to cost you money. Yeah. Yeah. And going to cost you money. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also interesting if you even have

it's also interesting if you even have it's also interesting if you even have that that that number two number three

that that that number two number three that that that number two number three spot and the profit the advertiser makes

spot and the profit the advertiser makes spot and the profit the advertiser makes and then the profit you make and you can

and then the profit you make and you can and then the profit you make and you can split it even in the middle so you don't

split it even in the middle so you don't split it even in the middle so you don't have any equalist and indeed we also

have any equalist and indeed we also have any equalist and indeed we also communicate stuff like that. Hey, communicate stuff like that. Hey, communicate stuff like that. Hey, listen. It's not just the percentage

listen. It's not just the percentage listen. It's not just the percentage people make, but also the again the

people make, but also the again the people make, but also the again the earnings per click because some offer

earnings per click because some offer earnings per click because some offer just convert better because they have a

just convert better because they have a just convert better because they have a lot of branding and TV commercials. Then

lot of branding and TV commercials. Then lot of branding and TV commercials. Then we also say yeah I want to put you at

we also say yeah I want to put you at we also say yeah I want to put you at the top but just can't because look at

the top but just can't because look at the top but just can't because look at this data. So it can work

this data. So it can work this data. So it can work if let's say these commission

if let's say these commission if let's say these commission percentages then we can and that is

percentages then we can and that is percentages then we can and that is definitely how we like it to be true

definitely how we like it to be true definitely how we like it to be true just all because in the end we are a

just all because in the end we are a just all because in the end we are a business they are a business who want to

business they are a business who want to business they are a business who want to make a good value for the user and a

make a good value for the user and a make a good value for the user and a good thing for a company and

good thing for a company and good thing for a company and yeah bo quick bonus question and then

yeah bo quick bonus question and then yeah bo quick bonus question and then we'll wrap this up. Do you think I I've

we'll wrap this up. Do you think I I've we'll wrap this up. Do you think I I've seen this happen before where some seen this happen before where some seen this happen before where some affiliates they get so big that they go

affiliates they get so big that they go affiliates they get so big that they go to operators and say if you want access

to operators and say if you want access to operators and say if you want access to our network it's not just a flat fee

to our network it's not just a flat fee to our network it's not just a flat fee we also want an equity stake in you and

we also want an equity stake in you and we also want an equity stake in you and then they become like a partner because

then they become like a partner because then they become like a partner because I think a lot of operators they would

I think a lot of operators they would I think a lot of operators they would actually gain a lot if they actually

actually gain a lot if they actually actually gain a lot if they actually had it's a catch 22 but they would gain

had it's a catch 22 but they would gain had it's a catch 22 but they would gain a lot of insights from that affiliate if

a lot of insights from that affiliate if a lot of insights from that affiliate if there's an equity stake they have

there's an equity stake they have there's an equity stake they have incentive to share all the data and be

incentive to share all the data and be incentive to share all the data and be like look here's our partners here's how

like look here's our partners here's how like look here's our partners here's how you stack up against it do you think

you stack up against it do you think you stack up against it do you think this could be something where maybe it

this could be something where maybe it this could be something where maybe it binds some of the trusts like are would

binds some of the trusts like are would binds some of the trusts like are would affiliates be asking for too much or do

affiliates be asking for too much or do affiliates be asking for too much or do you think there's a there's some sort of

you think there's a there's some sort of you think there's a there's some sort of weird equity playbook where affiliates

weird equity playbook where affiliates weird equity playbook where affiliates could actually say hey let's work

could actually say hey let's work could actually say hey let's work together and have some equity slice

together and have some equity slice together and have some equity slice what's the term for like crowdfunding

what's the term for like crowdfunding what's the term for like crowdfunding you get like a small piece but you're

you get like a small piece but you're you get like a small piece but you're you've got ownership and you feel good you've got ownership and you feel good you've got ownership and you feel good about it yeah I love it equity

about it yeah I love it equity about it yeah I love it equity percentages because that's the whole how

percentages because that's the whole how percentages because that's the whole how I get incentivized yeah you know what I

I get incentivized yeah you know what I I get incentivized yeah you know what I mean I'm only commission based no flat

mean I'm only commission based no flat mean I'm only commission based no flat fees I never think about flat fees. So

fees I never think about flat fees. So fees I never think about flat fees. So if you then also ask for percentage of

if you then also ask for percentage of if you then also ask for percentage of the company. Yes, it does align the

the company. Yes, it does align the the company. Yes, it does align the incentives eventually and that is why I

incentives eventually and that is why I incentives eventually and that is why I like affiliate marketing is the like affiliate marketing is the like affiliate marketing is the incentives are aligned between you and

incentives are aligned between you and incentives are aligned between you and me. We both want the same thing. So

me. We both want the same thing. So me. We both want the same thing. So let's go and get it. Let's communicate

let's go and get it. Let's communicate let's go and get it. Let's communicate how we can get there and see if

how we can get there and see if how we can get there and see if everything is all right and the data everything is all right and the data everything is all right and the data works and etc etc. Yeah. And that's why

works and etc etc. Yeah. And that's why works and etc etc. Yeah. And that's why I did the same. I consulted a lot of

I did the same. I consulted a lot of I did the same. I consulted a lot of affiliates and actually also had a

affiliates and actually also had a affiliates and actually also had a problem as in I charged €500 for one

problem as in I charged €500 for one problem as in I charged €500 for one hour and not many people booked but the

hour and not many people booked but the hour and not many people booked but the people that booked they got so much more

people that booked they got so much more people that booked they got so much more out of it than that 500 euros an hour

out of it than that 500 euros an hour out of it than that 500 euros an hour that I'm like yeah okay I I only consult

that I'm like yeah okay I I only consult that I'm like yeah okay I I only consult if I get a small percentage of your if I get a small percentage of your if I get a small percentage of your company and now I have more in people

company and now I have more in people company and now I have more in people because the incentives are aligned because the incentives are aligned because the incentives are aligned there's no upfront cost and but I also

there's no upfront cost and but I also there's no upfront cost and but I also know the value that they have. So

know the value that they have. So know the value that they have. So awesome Neils, thank you so much for

awesome Neils, thank you so much for awesome Neils, thank you so much for doing this. I want to pass it back to doing this. I want to pass it back to doing this. I want to pass it back to you to ask how can people get a hold of

you to ask how can people get a hold of you to ask how can people get a hold of you and tell us about some of your

you and tell us about some of your you and tell us about some of your websites and I know you've got an

websites and I know you've got an websites and I know you've got an upcoming book too. Yeah, it was a

upcoming book too. Yeah, it was a upcoming book too. Yeah, it was a pleasure. How to best be connected with

pleasure. How to best be connected with pleasure. How to best be connected with me? LinkedIn or Facebook. That's why I

me? LinkedIn or Facebook. That's why I me? LinkedIn or Facebook. That's why I post a lot now. Just LinkedIn at NeilC.

post a lot now. Just LinkedIn at NeilC. post a lot now. Just LinkedIn at NeilC. We'll put it in the show notes. If you

We'll put it in the show notes. If you We'll put it in the show notes. If you have an affiliate site or company or

have an affiliate site or company or have an affiliate site or company or publisher, check out neilc.com because I

publisher, check out neilc.com because I publisher, check out neilc.com because I also advise some publisher on how to

also advise some publisher on how to also advise some publisher on how to grow bigger. I am the co-founder of the

grow bigger. I am the co-founder of the grow bigger. I am the co-founder of the Traffic family, a company that is now

Traffic family, a company that is now Traffic family, a company that is now doing e-commerce in the Netherlands,

doing e-commerce in the Netherlands, doing e-commerce in the Netherlands, affiliate e-commerce in the Netherlands.

affiliate e-commerce in the Netherlands. affiliate e-commerce in the Netherlands. It's completely outsourced and we do

It's completely outsourced and we do It's completely outsourced and we do over 2 million a year in

over 2 million a year in over 2 million a year in commission. And I'm doing an I'm writing

commission. And I'm doing an I'm writing commission. And I'm doing an I'm writing a book called The Payout Mafia. how the

a book called The Payout Mafia. how the a book called The Payout Mafia. how the top these top 20 affiliates are robbing

top these top 20 affiliates are robbing top these top 20 affiliates are robbing the bank in the bank in the bank in 2025. It's basically because what I said

2025. It's basically because what I said 2025. It's basically because what I said to you is I go to these SEO conferences

to you is I go to these SEO conferences to you is I go to these SEO conferences and suddenly I don't see any affiliates

and suddenly I don't see any affiliates and suddenly I don't see any affiliates anymore, but the affiliates that I do

anymore, but the affiliates that I do anymore, but the affiliates that I do know are making a ton of money,

know are making a ton of money, know are making a ton of money, including me and my own company. So, I'm

including me and my own company. So, I'm including me and my own company. So, I'm like, come on guys, it's stop it if it's

like, come on guys, it's stop it if it's like, come on guys, it's stop it if it's still possible to go big in affiliate

still possible to go big in affiliate still possible to go big in affiliate marketing. And that's why I'm just

marketing. And that's why I'm just marketing. And that's why I'm just reached out to all the big affiliate

reached out to all the big affiliate reached out to all the big affiliate guys that I know and got right now 17 to

guys that I know and got right now 17 to guys that I know and got right now 17 to say, "Yeah, I'm going to help you and

say, "Yeah, I'm going to help you and say, "Yeah, I'm going to help you and answer questions like how to start in

answer questions like how to start in answer questions like how to start in 2025. What mindset do you need? What if

2025. What mindset do you need? What if 2025. What mindset do you need? What if you had €10,000 to to spend? What is

you had €10,000 to to spend? What is you had €10,000 to to spend? What is your number one channel? What tools

your number one channel? What tools your number one channel? What tools you're going to use exactly for

you're going to use exactly for you're going to use exactly for beginners or people that are still

beginners or people that are still beginners or people that are still wanting to go big that can really help

wanting to go big that can really help wanting to go big that can really help them become big in affiliate marketing.

them become big in affiliate marketing. them become big in affiliate marketing. So that's been a pleasure. It will be my

So that's been a pleasure. It will be my So that's been a pleasure. It will be my first book. We're also going to make first book. We're also going to make first book. We're also going to make sure they'll be available physical.

sure they'll be available physical. sure they'll be available physical. That's also nice and we'll see where it

That's also nice and we'll see where it That's also nice and we'll see where it takes us. I hope the because the SEO

takes us. I hope the because the SEO takes us. I hope the because the SEO part the industry quite negative right

part the industry quite negative right part the industry quite negative right now. But there's so much more than SEO

now. But there's so much more than SEO now. But there's so much more than SEO and that's the second thing. I don't and that's the second thing. I don't and that's the second thing. I don't just want to invite talk with bunch of

just want to invite talk with bunch of just want to invite talk with bunch of SEO guys, but also the guys that do

SEO guys, but also the guys that do SEO guys, but also the guys that do Reddit or Parasant SEO, BBC, YouTube,

Reddit or Parasant SEO, BBC, YouTube, Reddit or Parasant SEO, BBC, YouTube, all these other things because the game

all these other things because the game all these other things because the game is changing. Right now I am reading a

is changing. Right now I am reading a is changing. Right now I am reading a lot about investing because also the

lot about investing because also the lot about investing because also the stock market is quite volatile as

stock market is quite volatile as stock market is quite volatile as everybody knows. They have this guy

everybody knows. They have this guy everybody knows. They have this guy called Benjamin Graham. He's considered

called Benjamin Graham. He's considered called Benjamin Graham. He's considered one of the most successful investors and

one of the most successful investors and one of the most successful investors and every 10 year he basically wrote a book

every 10 year he basically wrote a book every 10 year he basically wrote a book about his method of investing and it

about his method of investing and it about his method of investing and it completely changed every 10 years. He's

completely changed every 10 years. He's completely changed every 10 years. He's known for value investing which is last

known for value investing which is last known for value investing which is last book about he is the intelligent

book about he is the intelligent book about he is the intelligent investor. That's the book in in 1976

investor. That's the book in in 1976 investor. That's the book in in 1976 about value investing and that won't

about value investing and that won't about value investing and that won't work today either. And it's the same

work today either. And it's the same work today either. And it's the same with affiliate marketing. It will change

with affiliate marketing. It will change with affiliate marketing. It will change all the time. That is fine, but it

all the time. That is fine, but it all the time. That is fine, but it doesn't mean that you either have to doesn't mean that you either have to doesn't mean that you either have to quit or that there's no money to be

quit or that there's no money to be quit or that there's no money to be made.

made. made. Yeah. And I agree like some of those

Yeah. And I agree like some of those Yeah. And I agree like some of those people you have lined up are some of the

people you have lined up are some of the people you have lined up are some of the smartest marketing minds I've talked to.

smartest marketing minds I've talked to. smartest marketing minds I've talked to. Like you talk to even a friend like

Like you talk to even a friend like Like you talk to even a friend like Victor Carpeno and it's like he's SEO

Victor Carpeno and it's like he's SEO Victor Carpeno and it's like he's SEO but then when he starts talking you're but then when he starts talking you're but then when he starts talking you're like wait a minute it's next level

like wait a minute it's next level like wait a minute it's next level marketing that applies to it's not just

marketing that applies to it's not just marketing that applies to it's not just SEO anymore. It's I think good SEO was

SEO anymore. It's I think good SEO was SEO anymore. It's I think good SEO was always meant to be good marketing but we

always meant to be good marketing but we always meant to be good marketing but we got lazy and the game was just ranking

got lazy and the game was just ranking got lazy and the game was just ranking and if it worked but the irony it's

and if it worked but the irony it's and if it worked but the irony it's marketing and affiliate marketing here

marketing and affiliate marketing here marketing and affiliate marketing here we are. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It's been a

we are. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It's been a we are. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. It's been a pleasure to be on the show John. It's pleasure to be on the show John. It's pleasure to be on the show John. It's very good talks. Yeah. Nice chatting

very good talks. Yeah. Nice chatting very good talks. Yeah. Nice chatting with you. Thanks a lot for doing this

with you. Thanks a lot for doing this with you. Thanks a lot for doing this and yeah, looking forward to meeting you

and yeah, looking forward to meeting you and yeah, looking forward to meeting you in person somewhere around the world.

in person somewhere around the world. in person somewhere around the world. It'll be one of these conferences. Yeah,

It'll be one of these conferences. Yeah, It'll be one of these conferences. Yeah, it will happen. It will happen.

Thank you for tuning in to the Thank you for tuning in to the AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take

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