Marketing That Stands the F*ck Out: Louis Grenier on Positioning

How do you get remembered? And you need How do you get remembered? And you need both, right? You need a unique both, right? You need a unique both, right? You need a unique positioning so that you give like

positioning so that you give like positioning so that you give like rational compelling reasons, but you

rational compelling reasons, but you rational compelling reasons, but you also need the distinctiveness

also need the distinctiveness also need the distinctiveness um which is there to make people notice

um which is there to make people notice um which is there to make people notice you um for reasons that are quite

you um for reasons that are quite you um for reasons that are quite frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but

frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but that's the point. So, uh, and then once

that's the point. So, uh, and then once that's the point. So, uh, and then once you have that, you want to reach as many

you have that, you want to reach as many you have that, you want to reach as many of those people as possible within your

of those people as possible within your of those people as possible within your means, including,

means, including, means, including, uh, telling stories and and reaching

uh, telling stories and and reaching uh, telling stories and and reaching people through ads or, uh, search engine

people through ads or, uh, search engine people through ads or, uh, search engine and finding your affiliate website and

and finding your affiliate website and and finding your affiliate website and stuff like that. I'm John Wright and

stuff like that. I'm John Wright and stuff like that. I'm John Wright and you're listening to AffiliateBI, the

you're listening to AffiliateBI, the you're listening to AffiliateBI, the business intelligence and affiliate

business intelligence and affiliate business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

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Snapstrap. Snapstrap. Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast.

Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast. Welcome to the AffiliateBI podcast. Today we're chatting with Louiesie Today we're chatting with Louiesie Today we're chatting with Louiesie Grenier who is a recovering Frenchman

Grenier who is a recovering Frenchman Grenier who is a recovering Frenchman who's the author of Stand the [ __ ] Out

who's the author of Stand the [ __ ] Out who's the author of Stand the [ __ ] Out which is a genius marketing book. Happen

which is a genius marketing book. Happen which is a genius marketing book. Happen to have it right here. Um it's about

to have it right here. Um it's about to have it right here. Um it's about branding and positioning and he was

branding and positioning and he was branding and positioning and he was previously uh I think it's the content

previously uh I think it's the content previously uh I think it's the content and product marketer at Hot Jar, which

and product marketer at Hot Jar, which and product marketer at Hot Jar, which is an amazing CRO tool and after a few

is an amazing CRO tool and after a few is an amazing CRO tool and after a few years um he's also been the host of

years um he's also been the host of years um he's also been the host of Everyone Hates Marketing Podcast. Louie,

Everyone Hates Marketing Podcast. Louie, Everyone Hates Marketing Podcast. Louie, uh welcome to the show.

uh welcome to the show. uh welcome to the show. Mojo and mercy very much for your

Mojo and mercy very much for your Mojo and mercy very much for your invitation. Let's do this. Thank you.

invitation. Let's do this. Thank you. invitation. Let's do this. Thank you. So, if you came over to my flat and you

So, if you came over to my flat and you So, if you came over to my flat and you had to go to the bathroom for maybe

had to go to the bathroom for maybe had to go to the bathroom for maybe number two, would you have those uh

number two, would you have those uh number two, would you have those uh fragrance packets with you just in case

fragrance packets with you just in case fragrance packets with you just in case you needed them? No, I like to raw dog

you needed them? No, I like to raw dog you needed them? No, I like to raw dog it. I like to keep it real. So, what you

it. I like to keep it real. So, what you it. I like to keep it real. So, what you see is what you get. What you smell is see is what you get. What you smell is see is what you get. What you smell is what you get. Um I have no shame in my

what you get. Um I have no shame in my what you get. Um I have no shame in my bodily functions. Brilliant. It's uh you

bodily functions. Brilliant. It's uh you bodily functions. Brilliant. It's uh you know I just love the the stories you had

know I just love the the stories you had know I just love the the stories you had in the book that talked about you know

in the book that talked about you know in the book that talked about you know marketing positioning about products

marketing positioning about products marketing positioning about products solving problems and things like that.

solving problems and things like that. solving problems and things like that. Yeah. So so I mean for for for folks

Yeah. So so I mean for for for folks Yeah. So so I mean for for for folks listening this is a nod to one of the

listening this is a nod to one of the listening this is a nod to one of the example I use right which is a a sand

example I use right which is a a sand example I use right which is a a sand packet. It's a little thing that you

packet. It's a little thing that you packet. It's a little thing that you open up and put in the toilet before

open up and put in the toilet before open up and put in the toilet before you're going to to hide others. And I

you're going to to hide others. And I you're going to to hide others. And I kind of reverse engineer the everything

kind of reverse engineer the everything kind of reverse engineer the everything uh in ter of their positioning and

uh in ter of their positioning and uh in ter of their positioning and whatnot. Um, I like to use weird

whatnot. Um, I like to use weird whatnot. Um, I like to use weird examples because I think

examples because I think examples because I think they they tend to be remembered better

they they tend to be remembered better they they tend to be remembered better and I guess your question is a is a good

and I guess your question is a is a good and I guess your question is a is a good testament of that, right? Uh, I don't

testament of that, right? Uh, I don't testament of that, right? Uh, I don't like to use big

like to use big like to use big brands examples that everyone is using

brands examples that everyone is using brands examples that everyone is using to to to to illustrate their stories

to to to to illustrate their stories to to to to illustrate their stories like Apple and Harley-Davidson and

like Apple and Harley-Davidson and like Apple and Harley-Davidson and Disney and Tesla, blah blah blah. I just

Disney and Tesla, blah blah blah. I just Disney and Tesla, blah blah blah. I just hate that. I just can't [ __ ] stand it

hate that. I just can't [ __ ] stand it hate that. I just can't [ __ ] stand it actually. Um, so yeah, I always try to

actually. Um, so yeah, I always try to actually. Um, so yeah, I always try to find way of

find way of find way of tiny real examples. Okay, so I wrote a

tiny real examples. Okay, so I wrote a tiny real examples. Okay, so I wrote a whole bunch of questions down and the whole bunch of questions down and the whole bunch of questions down and the one I want to ask maybe I'll just kind

one I want to ask maybe I'll just kind one I want to ask maybe I'll just kind of rephrase it a bit which is marketing

of rephrase it a bit which is marketing of rephrase it a bit which is marketing is a struggle for most. So how do you

is a struggle for most. So how do you is a struggle for most. So how do you use data and insights into your

use data and insights into your use data and insights into your marketing efforts and you know does data

marketing efforts and you know does data marketing efforts and you know does data and marketing go together? Because I

and marketing go together? Because I and marketing go together? Because I think a lot of people see sales and data

think a lot of people see sales and data think a lot of people see sales and data as that's where data lives. But I think

as that's where data lives. But I think as that's where data lives. But I think you're kind of saying like maybe no.

you're kind of saying like maybe no. you're kind of saying like maybe no. It's kind of a bit of both rather than

It's kind of a bit of both rather than It's kind of a bit of both rather than marketing as kind of like a concept like

marketing as kind of like a concept like marketing as kind of like a concept like hey we're going to try some [ __ ] and if

hey we're going to try some [ __ ] and if hey we're going to try some [ __ ] and if it doesn't work that's our data.

Well you can't do marketing without Well you can't do marketing without data. uh whether it's data that you have

data. uh whether it's data that you have data. uh whether it's data that you have from customer interviews, data from your

from customer interviews, data from your from customer interviews, data from your intuition, I would classify them as

intuition, I would classify them as intuition, I would classify them as still data of some sort like your

still data of some sort like your still data of some sort like your knowledge, past experience, it's still

knowledge, past experience, it's still knowledge, past experience, it's still something that you use. So you can't do

something that you use. So you can't do something that you use. So you can't do marketing without data.

marketing without data. marketing without data. Okay. And would you say that like

Okay. And would you say that like Okay. And would you say that like storytelling is like a good way to like

storytelling is like a good way to like storytelling is like a good way to like do marketing and you know it's kind of

do marketing and you know it's kind of do marketing and you know it's kind of like an extension of sales?

Um I mean storytelling is part of Um I mean storytelling is part of communication. Communication is is part

communication. Communication is is part communication. Communication is is part of marketing but it's roughly 8%. So 8%

of marketing but it's roughly 8%. So 8% of marketing but it's roughly 8%. So 8% of marketing is down to communication

of marketing is down to communication of marketing is down to communication roughly. Uh and so trading is part of

roughly. Uh and so trading is part of roughly. Uh and so trading is part of that. So it's a tiny percentage. Um the

that. So it's a tiny percentage. Um the that. So it's a tiny percentage. Um the bigger picture if we take the distance

bigger picture if we take the distance bigger picture if we take the distance uh from it like marketing is not an art

uh from it like marketing is not an art uh from it like marketing is not an art or anything like that. that marketing is

or anything like that. that marketing is or anything like that. that marketing is really there to help increase the

really there to help increase the really there to help increase the chances that people would buy your

chances that people would buy your chances that people would buy your stuff. And by increase the chances,

stuff. And by increase the chances, stuff. And by increase the chances, we're not talking about 50%. It's like a

we're not talking about 50%. It's like a we're not talking about 50%. It's like a tiny minute percentage that we, you

tiny minute percentage that we, you tiny minute percentage that we, you know, slightly more likely to be known,

know, slightly more likely to be known, know, slightly more likely to be known, to be trusted, to be chosen in the

to be trusted, to be chosen in the to be trusted, to be chosen in the supermarket aisle or whatever else. and

supermarket aisle or whatever else. and supermarket aisle or whatever else. and or or for a salesperson to pick up the

or or for a salesperson to pick up the or or for a salesperson to pick up the call and uh to pick up their phone and

call and uh to pick up their phone and call and uh to pick up their phone and call call someone and that someone would

call call someone and that someone would call call someone and that someone would say oh yeah I've heard about you right

say oh yeah I've heard about you right say oh yeah I've heard about you right so it's a big

so it's a big so it's a big discipline and product is part of it

discipline and product is part of it discipline and product is part of it price is part of it promotion is part of

price is part of it promotion is part of price is part of it promotion is part of it like the traditional four piece so

it like the traditional four piece so it like the traditional four piece so it's just bigger on communication and it's just bigger on communication and it's just bigger on communication and storytelling is such a tiny it's a tiny

storytelling is such a tiny it's a tiny storytelling is such a tiny it's a tiny part it's crazy important because that's

part it's crazy important because that's part it's crazy important because that's how you deliver a message that humans

how you deliver a message that humans how you deliver a message that humans will will will interpret well because they'll

interpret well because they'll interpret well because they'll understand they'll be they remember it

understand they'll be they remember it understand they'll be they remember it better than than normal facts all of

better than than normal facts all of better than than normal facts all of that. So it is a a scientific proof you

that. So it is a a scientific proof you that. So it is a a scientific proof you know that storytelling is important but

know that storytelling is important but know that storytelling is important but yeah it's there's way bigger levers you

yeah it's there's way bigger levers you yeah it's there's way bigger levers you can pull. Okay. I guess this is an issue

can pull. Okay. I guess this is an issue can pull. Okay. I guess this is an issue of more of timing like when do you tell

of more of timing like when do you tell of more of timing like when do you tell the story? It's kind of like well when the story? It's kind of like well when the story? It's kind of like well when is the user asking for it is uh the time

is the user asking for it is uh the time is the user asking for it is uh the time right. Yeah. I mean you you you you you

right. Yeah. I mean you you you you you right. Yeah. I mean you you you you you you reach out to people once you have

you reach out to people once you have you reach out to people once you have all the foundations covered. So in the

all the foundations covered. So in the all the foundations covered. So in the book we talk about insight for aging

book we talk about insight for aging book we talk about insight for aging which is essentially how to gather the

which is essentially how to gather the which is essentially how to gather the right insight right data in order to

right insight right data in order to right insight right data in order to build upon and create then a unique

build upon and create then a unique build upon and create then a unique positioning which is essentially a the

positioning which is essentially a the positioning which is essentially a the way to offer a compelling reason for

way to offer a compelling reason for way to offer a compelling reason for specific group of people to pick you

specific group of people to pick you specific group of people to pick you over direct competitors or indirect

over direct competitors or indirect over direct competitors or indirect competitors. Right? So that gives you

competitors. Right? So that gives you competitors. Right? So that gives you this kind of line in the sand that gives

this kind of line in the sand that gives this kind of line in the sand that gives you this this flag in the ground uh that

you this this flag in the ground uh that you this this flag in the ground uh that says this is who we are. This is what

says this is who we are. This is what says this is who we are. This is what we're for. Um and then once you have

we're for. Um and then once you have we're for. Um and then once you have that you can build a distinctive brand

that you can build a distinctive brand that you can build a distinctive brand which is the more less like rational

which is the more less like rational which is the more less like rational part of of marketing which is about

part of of marketing which is about part of of marketing which is about being how do you get noticed? How do you

being how do you get noticed? How do you being how do you get noticed? How do you get remembered and you need both right?

get remembered and you need both right? get remembered and you need both right? You need a unique positioning so that

You need a unique positioning so that You need a unique positioning so that you give like rational compelling

you give like rational compelling you give like rational compelling reasons, but you also need the

reasons, but you also need the reasons, but you also need the distinctiveness

distinctiveness distinctiveness um which is there to make people notice

um which is there to make people notice um which is there to make people notice you um for reasons that are quite

you um for reasons that are quite you um for reasons that are quite frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but

frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but frankly sometimes just weird. Uh but that's the point. So uh and then once

that's the point. So uh and then once that's the point. So uh and then once you have that you will reach as many of

you have that you will reach as many of you have that you will reach as many of those people as possible within your

those people as possible within your those people as possible within your means including

means including means including uh telling stories and and reaching

uh telling stories and and reaching uh telling stories and and reaching people through ads or uh search engine

people through ads or uh search engine people through ads or uh search engine and finding your affiliate website and

and finding your affiliate website and and finding your affiliate website and stuff like that. Okay. I've spent most

stuff like that. Okay. I've spent most stuff like that. Okay. I've spent most of my career in the i gaming space which

of my career in the i gaming space which of my career in the i gaming space which is known as kind of like a wealthy

is known as kind of like a wealthy is known as kind of like a wealthy industry and there's a lot of similar

industry and there's a lot of similar industry and there's a lot of similar industries like the finance personal

industries like the finance personal industries like the finance personal finance space where there's a lot of

finance space where there's a lot of finance space where there's a lot of money involved and in my LinkedIn post

money involved and in my LinkedIn post money involved and in my LinkedIn post uh I talked about like you know why is I

uh I talked about like you know why is I uh I talked about like you know why is I don't want to kind of accuse everyone of

don't want to kind of accuse everyone of don't want to kind of accuse everyone of being [ __ ] but I'm like why is everyone

being [ __ ] but I'm like why is everyone being [ __ ] but I'm like why is everyone [ __ ] at marketing in an industry when

[ __ ] at marketing in an industry when [ __ ] at marketing in an industry when there's so much money and I think my

there's so much money and I think my there's so much money and I think my answer is because they have money to

answer is because they have money to answer is because they have money to just burn and throw out the problem and

just burn and throw out the problem and just burn and throw out the problem and think that it's part of the solution but

think that it's part of the solution but think that it's part of the solution but no one's thinking about can I do this

no one's thinking about can I do this no one's thinking about can I do this with a fraction of the budget or can I

with a fraction of the budget or can I with a fraction of the budget or can I take a budget and make it a

take a budget and make it a take a budget and make it a 10x yeah

10x yeah 10x yeah so it's I think there's a bit of there's

so it's I think there's a bit of there's so it's I think there's a bit of there's a bit of that I would agree right where

a bit of that I would agree right where a bit of that I would agree right where like if you have money you just use it

like if you have money you just use it like if you have money you just use it all like if you have specific budgets

all like if you have specific budgets all like if you have specific budgets you couldn't use it all and you can do

you couldn't use it all and you can do you couldn't use it all and you can do tests and stuff like that so that's I

tests and stuff like that so that's I tests and stuff like that so that's I would agree with that I think the second

would agree with that I think the second would agree with that I think the second part though is um I used to think like

part though is um I used to think like part though is um I used to think like this as well especially like early in my

this as well especially like early in my this as well especially like early in my career where I would judge people's well

career where I would judge people's well career where I would judge people's well brands marketing and always feel like

brands marketing and always feel like brands marketing and always feel like they're bad. Um, however,

they're bad. Um, however, they're bad. Um, however, uh, what is bad for us because we think

uh, what is bad for us because we think uh, what is bad for us because we think about those things a lot might not be

about those things a lot might not be about those things a lot might not be bad for real, right? Like they must be

bad for real, right? Like they must be bad for real, right? Like they must be doing something right if they're that

doing something right if they're that doing something right if they're that big and generating that much money. So

big and generating that much money. So big and generating that much money. So their marketing, not just their

their marketing, not just their their marketing, not just their communication, must be right. So yeah,

communication, must be right. So yeah, communication, must be right. So yeah, maybe they communicate, maybe maybe

maybe they communicate, maybe maybe maybe they communicate, maybe maybe there's like shitty ads, generic ads

there's like shitty ads, generic ads there's like shitty ads, generic ads that sound like everyone else's, but

that sound like everyone else's, but that sound like everyone else's, but maybe that's all they need in order to maybe that's all they need in order to maybe that's all they need in order to stay top of mind. People still notice

stay top of mind. People still notice stay top of mind. People still notice them slightly and therefore slightly

them slightly and therefore slightly them slightly and therefore slightly increases the chance they pick them over

increases the chance they pick them over increases the chance they pick them over someone else. So I think there's nuance

someone else. So I think there's nuance someone else. So I think there's nuance there and the other part is the market

there and the other part is the market there and the other part is the market share. So there are forces at play that

share. So there are forces at play that share. So there are forces at play that are much much much bigger than any

are much much much bigger than any are much much much bigger than any creative campaign uh and the effect it

creative campaign uh and the effect it creative campaign uh and the effect it could have on people. uh one of the

could have on people. uh one of the could have on people. uh one of the biggest levers is market share. So in

biggest levers is market share. So in biggest levers is market share. So in any category uh the more a brand will

any category uh the more a brand will any category uh the more a brand will have a high market share the more loyal

have a high market share the more loyal have a high market share the more loyal their customers will be the less churn

their customers will be the less churn their customers will be the less churn they will have and the more smaller

they will have and the more smaller they will have and the more smaller brands will lose uh customers to

brands will lose uh customers to brands will lose uh customers to them. And that's just a force that

them. And that's just a force that them. And that's just a force that exists in any market any across any

exists in any market any across any exists in any market any across any decades anything uh that's been proven

decades anything uh that's been proven decades anything uh that's been proven time and time again in any industry. And

time and time again in any industry. And time and time again in any industry. And so as a small brand, you are way way

so as a small brand, you are way way so as a small brand, you are way way like you're against the current. You're

like you're against the current. You're like you're against the current. You're swimming against the current. And so a

swimming against the current. And so a swimming against the current. And so a big eye gaming company like with maybe

big eye gaming company like with maybe big eye gaming company like with maybe number one market share don't have to do

number one market share don't have to do number one market share don't have to do as much to remain where they are because

as much to remain where they are because as much to remain where they are because the force is like the wind is pushing

the force is like the wind is pushing the force is like the wind is pushing them while anyone else has to play

them while anyone else has to play them while anyone else has to play catchup. So I think that's also explains

catchup. So I think that's also explains catchup. So I think that's also explains it right like especially the bigger

it right like especially the bigger it right like especially the bigger companies like massive companies tend to

companies like massive companies tend to companies like massive companies tend to have this advantages that they just surf

have this advantages that they just surf have this advantages that they just surf on and yeah if they don't do something

on and yeah if they don't do something on and yeah if they don't do something good for a while it might not be as big

good for a while it might not be as big good for a while it might not be as big of a deal as an increment um who's

of a deal as an increment um who's of a deal as an increment um who's trying to catch up. Yeah, because I see

trying to catch up. Yeah, because I see trying to catch up. Yeah, because I see some of these companies like ones that

some of these companies like ones that some of these companies like ones that are at the top, you're right, they don't are at the top, you're right, they don't are at the top, you're right, they don't have to do as much. Like they're kind of have to do as much. Like they're kind of have to do as much. Like they're kind of like a little bit of extra fuel makes

like a little bit of extra fuel makes like a little bit of extra fuel makes them just go a bit further. But then

them just go a bit further. But then them just go a bit further. But then there's other companies which they're

there's other companies which they're there's other companies which they're giants. They they clearly have the

giants. They they clearly have the giants. They they clearly have the money. They're making it, but you can

money. They're making it, but you can money. They're making it, but you can kind of look at them and go, I think

kind of look at them and go, I think kind of look at them and go, I think they're just wasting a lot of money and

they're just wasting a lot of money and they're just wasting a lot of money and just it's kind of like a a playbook like

just it's kind of like a a playbook like just it's kind of like a a playbook like paytoplay. So I'll give a quick example.

paytoplay. So I'll give a quick example. paytoplay. So I'll give a quick example. It's like at these conferences, it's the

It's like at these conferences, it's the It's like at these conferences, it's the same booths over and over again. It's

same booths over and over again. It's same booths over and over again. It's kind of like they're not inspirational.

kind of like they're not inspirational. kind of like they're not inspirational. They don't make you talk about them. Uh

They don't make you talk about them. Uh They don't make you talk about them. Uh sometimes you go up to the stands and sometimes you go up to the stands and sometimes you go up to the stands and you start asking questions and you got

you start asking questions and you got you start asking questions and you got people that just don't care or you got

people that just don't care or you got people that just don't care or you got like, you know, uh the pretty girls that

like, you know, uh the pretty girls that like, you know, uh the pretty girls that just kind of like listen to you and they

just kind of like listen to you and they just kind of like listen to you and they put you in contact with someone, but

put you in contact with someone, but put you in contact with someone, but it's almost like there's no care. Like

it's almost like there's no care. Like it's almost like there's no care. Like there are some people that I think go

there are some people that I think go there are some people that I think go out of their way to, you know, try to

out of their way to, you know, try to out of their way to, you know, try to make an impact and actually measure the

make an impact and actually measure the make an impact and actually measure the effectiveness of it. But we hear

effectiveness of it. But we hear effectiveness of it. But we hear stories. I'm like, why are these people

stories. I'm like, why are these people stories. I'm like, why are these people here if they're just basically walking

here if they're just basically walking here if they're just basically walking around and talking with their friends,

around and talking with their friends, around and talking with their friends, not doing anything, no strategy? Like,

not doing anything, no strategy? Like, not doing anything, no strategy? Like, you must see this over and over again as

you must see this over and over again as you must see this over and over again as a as a marketing person. Yeah. But

a as a marketing person. Yeah. But a as a marketing person. Yeah. But again, it's like it's part of a bigger I

again, it's like it's part of a bigger I again, it's like it's part of a bigger I think it's part of a bigger grand

think it's part of a bigger grand think it's part of a bigger grand strategy for them, which is uh

strategy for them, which is uh strategy for them, which is uh distinctiveness, reach, making sure that

distinctiveness, reach, making sure that distinctiveness, reach, making sure that people see them. So even though they

people see them. So even though they people see them. So even though they might have a grand unique idea

might have a grand unique idea might have a grand unique idea uh and their booths look like everyone

uh and their booths look like everyone uh and their booths look like everyone else's, the fact that they invest in in

else's, the fact that they invest in in else's, the fact that they invest in in that event and maybe hundred other

that event and maybe hundred other that event and maybe hundred other events reaching the same people plus

events reaching the same people plus events reaching the same people plus paid ads plus influencer plus all the

paid ads plus influencer plus all the paid ads plus influencer plus all the other stuff means that you know the sum

other stuff means that you know the sum other stuff means that you know the sum of it all is moving the needle. And the

of it all is moving the needle. And the of it all is moving the needle. And the issue then is yeah if you isolate one

issue then is yeah if you isolate one issue then is yeah if you isolate one particular thing yeah it might be [ __ ]

particular thing yeah it might be [ __ ] particular thing yeah it might be [ __ ] but it's extremely difficult to you

but it's extremely difficult to you but it's extremely difficult to you can't really remove a specific portion

can't really remove a specific portion can't really remove a specific portion of of of the sum of of it all because

of of of the sum of of it all because of of of the sum of of it all because everything is interconnects with each

everything is interconnects with each everything is interconnects with each other right so as I said at the start

other right so as I said at the start other right so as I said at the start right like it's your aim as a big brand

right like it's your aim as a big brand right like it's your aim as a big brand is to just raise the chances that is to just raise the chances that is to just raise the chances that someone will ever buy from you and I

someone will ever buy from you and I someone will ever buy from you and I think that's what they're doing. Um even

think that's what they're doing. Um even think that's what they're doing. Um even though yeah if you isolate everything it

though yeah if you isolate everything it though yeah if you isolate everything it makes no sense but together this huge

makes no sense but together this huge makes no sense but together this huge momentum that they keep investing in

momentum that they keep investing in momentum that they keep investing in helps them remaining where they are

helps them remaining where they are helps them remaining where they are market share wise and stuff

market share wise and stuff market share wise and stuff and it clearly must be right in some way

and it clearly must be right in some way and it clearly must be right in some way or else they wouldn't throw that all or else they wouldn't throw that all or else they wouldn't throw that all that money. Yeah. So, I've changed my

that money. Yeah. So, I've changed my that money. Yeah. So, I've changed my tune a bit on this, right? Like I used

tune a bit on this, right? Like I used tune a bit on this, right? Like I used to be extremely like, ah, those stupid

to be extremely like, ah, those stupid to be extremely like, ah, those stupid ads on TV, they don't even share an

ads on TV, they don't even share an ads on TV, they don't even share an offer. Like, they just put their logo offer. Like, they just put their logo offer. Like, they just put their logo after the weather. And now I've realized

after the weather. And now I've realized after the weather. And now I've realized that, you know, I was a bit shortsighted

that, you know, I was a bit shortsighted that, you know, I was a bit shortsighted because again, sometimes it's just about

because again, sometimes it's just about because again, sometimes it's just about being seen. It's just about the logo is

being seen. It's just about the logo is being seen. It's just about the logo is there, the logo is there, the logo is

there, the logo is there, the logo is there, the logo is there, the logo is there. And in three years time when you

there. And in three years time when you there. And in three years time when you have to pick between two brands to buy a

have to pick between two brands to buy a have to pick between two brands to buy a [ __ ] dishwasher, you got to pick the

[ __ ] dishwasher, you got to pick the [ __ ] dishwasher, you got to pick the one that you've seen more because you one that you've seen more because you one that you've seen more because you trust that more. That's also a

trust that more. That's also a trust that more. That's also a fundamental principle in how humans uh

fundamental principle in how humans uh fundamental principle in how humans uh perceive the world. Like the more we see

perceive the world. Like the more we see perceive the world. Like the more we see something, the more we trust it. The something, the more we trust it. The something, the more we trust it. The more we trust it, the more we're likely more we trust it, the more we're likely more we trust it, the more we're likely to remember it. Blah blah blah. So

to remember it. Blah blah blah. So to remember it. Blah blah blah. So again, you know, it doesn't have for big

again, you know, it doesn't have for big again, you know, it doesn't have for big brands in particular, you don't have to

brands in particular, you don't have to brands in particular, you don't have to be that creative. You just have to be be that creative. You just have to be be that creative. You just have to be [ __ ] clear. Repeat your message over

[ __ ] clear. Repeat your message over [ __ ] clear. Repeat your message over and over again. clear logo, clear

and over again. clear logo, clear and over again. clear logo, clear distinctive brand assets. So, color, uh,

distinctive brand assets. So, color, uh, distinctive brand assets. So, color, uh, yeah, logo, mascots, uh, sounds, stuff

yeah, logo, mascots, uh, sounds, stuff yeah, logo, mascots, uh, sounds, stuff like that. Like McDonald's, you know,

like that. Like McDonald's, you know, like that. Like McDonald's, you know, like those massive brand, they can get

like those massive brand, they can get like those massive brand, they can get away with that. Now, the question is, as

away with that. Now, the question is, as away with that. Now, the question is, as a smaller company, as a smaller brand in

a smaller company, as a smaller brand in a smaller company, as a smaller brand in that in big market with almost no market

that in big market with almost no market that in big market with almost no market share, you can't do that. So, what do

share, you can't do that. So, what do share, you can't do that. So, what do you do? Right? Maybe it's a a mix of

you do? Right? Maybe it's a a mix of you do? Right? Maybe it's a a mix of like, you know, social media or, you

like, you know, social media or, you like, you know, social media or, you know, I kind of think like, you know,

know, I kind of think like, you know, know, I kind of think like, you know, using the the deepseek as an analogy,

using the the deepseek as an analogy, using the the deepseek as an analogy, like they wanted to compete against open

like they wanted to compete against open like they wanted to compete against open AI, but they had a fraction of the AI, but they had a fraction of the AI, but they had a fraction of the budget. And it's like, how do you get budget. And it's like, how do you get budget. And it's like, how do you get creative? And their creativity kind of

creative? And their creativity kind of creative? And their creativity kind of allowed them to do engineering in a

allowed them to do engineering in a allowed them to do engineering in a different way. And I kind of think different way. And I kind of think different way. And I kind of think marketing could be the same. Like we

marketing could be the same. Like we marketing could be the same. Like we have almost no budget for marketing as a

have almost no budget for marketing as a have almost no budget for marketing as a startup that we're bootstrapped. We

startup that we're bootstrapped. We startup that we're bootstrapped. We raised a bit of money to get off the

raised a bit of money to get off the raised a bit of money to get off the ground, but like like we don't really

ground, but like like we don't really ground, but like like we don't really have a big budget for marketing. So

have a big budget for marketing. So have a big budget for marketing. So everything we do is like kind of free

everything we do is like kind of free everything we do is like kind of free like we do a podcast, spend a lot of

like we do a podcast, spend a lot of like we do a podcast, spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. Uh we attend

time on LinkedIn. Uh we attend time on LinkedIn. Uh we attend conferences which is our marketing

conferences which is our marketing conferences which is our marketing budget but we don't really have a booth

budget but we don't really have a booth budget but we don't really have a booth uh because we just think it's very uh because we just think it's very uh because we just think it's very expensive at least for for us and in

expensive at least for for us and in expensive at least for for us and in relation to our revenue. So um yeah

relation to our revenue. So um yeah relation to our revenue. So um yeah that's our short story. Yeah. So it it

that's our short story. Yeah. So it it that's our short story. Yeah. So it it it's it's it's uh it's free moneywise, but resources

uh it's free moneywise, but resources uh it's free moneywise, but resources invested to spend time on LinkedIn and

invested to spend time on LinkedIn and invested to spend time on LinkedIn and doing things right and doing this doing things right and doing this doing things right and doing this podcast and whatever is it's all costs

podcast and whatever is it's all costs podcast and whatever is it's all costs at the end of the day, right? So it's at the end of the day, right? So it's at the end of the day, right? So it's all resources. So yeah, it's first of

all resources. So yeah, it's first of all resources. So yeah, it's first of all like if you have a strong unique

all like if you have a strong unique all like if you have a strong unique positioning be meaning you're able to

positioning be meaning you're able to positioning be meaning you're able to say we are the only one in that category

say we are the only one in that category say we are the only one in that category that solve those

that solve those that solve those problems for that specific group of

problems for that specific group of problems for that specific group of people that alternatives can't do or

people that alternatives can't do or people that alternatives can't do or don't do well you are giving people a

don't do well you are giving people a don't do well you are giving people a compelling reason to pick you uh against

compelling reason to pick you uh against compelling reason to pick you uh against other alternatives. Yeah. So once you

other alternatives. Yeah. So once you other alternatives. Yeah. So once you have that, that's already a big part of

have that, that's already a big part of have that, that's already a big part of of your marketing because in fact, some

of your marketing because in fact, some of your marketing because in fact, some companies only need this because they're

companies only need this because they're companies only need this because they're just in the right place. Uh they don't

just in the right place. Uh they don't just in the right place. Uh they don't need to do like communicating about

need to do like communicating about need to do like communicating about stuff to just get found. People

stuff to just get found. People stuff to just get found. People understand quickly who they are, giving

understand quickly who they are, giving understand quickly who they are, giving them a compelling reason to pick

them a compelling reason to pick them a compelling reason to pick them. Boom, job done. So that is super

them. Boom, job done. So that is super them. Boom, job done. So that is super important. And then and then yeah, you

important. And then and then yeah, you important. And then and then yeah, you do need some sort of a especially as a

do need some sort of a especially as a do need some sort of a especially as a small bootstrap brand, you do need to

small bootstrap brand, you do need to small bootstrap brand, you do need to like really up the ante when it comes to

like really up the ante when it comes to like really up the ante when it comes to the distinctive part. So uh again,

the distinctive part. So uh again, the distinctive part. So uh again, that's just the way humans are. Um we

that's just the way humans are. Um we that's just the way humans are. Um we remember things better if it touches

remember things better if it touches remember things better if it touches different part of our uh brain. So the

different part of our uh brain. So the different part of our uh brain. So the visual part of it, but also the like

visual part of it, but also the like visual part of it, but also the like sound, also smells, anything like that.

sound, also smells, anything like that. sound, also smells, anything like that. So, neuro diverse distinctive assets

So, neuro diverse distinctive assets So, neuro diverse distinctive assets work really well. Um, this is why

work really well. Um, this is why work really well. Um, this is why mascots work really well, like anything

mascots work really well, like anything mascots work really well, like anything that is a character. And then you want

that is a character. And then you want that is a character. And then you want to be consistent with that. So, you need to be consistent with that. So, you need to be consistent with that. So, you need to pick something that just stands the

to pick something that just stands the to pick something that just stands the [ __ ] out in one way, shape, or form,

[ __ ] out in one way, shape, or form, [ __ ] out in one way, shape, or form, right? That just is distinctive in the

right? That just is distinctive in the right? That just is distinctive in the category you're in. And then doubling

category you're in. And then doubling category you're in. And then doubling down on that. And then, yeah, keep

down on that. And then, yeah, keep down on that. And then, yeah, keep reaching those people like

reaching those people like reaching those people like conferences, whatever else, and just

conferences, whatever else, and just conferences, whatever else, and just continuously reach them. Uh there's no

continuously reach them. Uh there's no continuously reach them. Uh there's no other playbook. There's no secret. other playbook. There's no secret. other playbook. There's no secret. There's no other hacks. There's nothing

There's no other hacks. There's nothing There's no other hacks. There's nothing of the salt. It's it's just a grind. It

of the salt. It's it's just a grind. It of the salt. It's it's just a grind. It takes a while. I appreciate that. I'm

takes a while. I appreciate that. I'm takes a while. I appreciate that. I'm going to pivot into talking about some

going to pivot into talking about some going to pivot into talking about some of your concepts in marketing and

of your concepts in marketing and of your concepts in marketing and positioning. Apply it to affiliate

positioning. Apply it to affiliate positioning. Apply it to affiliate marketing itself. So, what do you think

marketing itself. So, what do you think marketing itself. So, what do you think about affiliate marketing today when you

about affiliate marketing today when you about affiliate marketing today when you see these affiliate sites and they have

see these affiliate sites and they have see these affiliate sites and they have their content and they've got the calls

their content and they've got the calls their content and they've got the calls to action to click and it just seems

to action to click and it just seems to action to click and it just seems like, you know, the old playbook was you

like, you know, the old playbook was you like, you know, the old playbook was you build content sites, you rank them in

build content sites, you rank them in build content sites, you rank them in Google. Google gives you the traffic and

Google. Google gives you the traffic and Google. Google gives you the traffic and you make money. But I think Google's uh

you make money. But I think Google's uh you make money. But I think Google's uh starting to mess things up with uh

starting to mess things up with uh starting to mess things up with uh search results today. And I think

search results today. And I think search results today. And I think there's been a lot of um soulless

there's been a lot of um soulless there's been a lot of um soulless affiliate sites out there. So I'm just

affiliate sites out there. So I'm just affiliate sites out there. So I'm just kind of want to get your take on what do

kind of want to get your take on what do kind of want to get your take on what do you think affiliate marketing needs

you think affiliate marketing needs you think affiliate marketing needs today for innovation ideas and

today for innovation ideas and today for innovation ideas and disruption.

So I was uh in London last week uh to So I was uh in London last week uh to speak at an event and Ran Fishkin was

speak at an event and Ran Fishkin was speak at an event and Ran Fishkin was also talking and he was sharing a few

also talking and he was sharing a few also talking and he was sharing a few data points about um Google and and how

data points about um Google and and how data points about um Google and and how they're still very much the big big big

they're still very much the big big big they're still very much the big big big search engine. They're not losing market

search engine. They're not losing market search engine. They're not losing market share contrary to LinkedIn Bros would

share contrary to LinkedIn Bros would share contrary to LinkedIn Bros would say. The big thing though is that they

say. The big thing though is that they say. The big thing though is that they keep more of the traffic for themsel

keep more of the traffic for themsel keep more of the traffic for themsel with the AI overview and stuff like that

with the AI overview and stuff like that with the AI overview and stuff like that and they give traffic to big brands

and they give traffic to big brands and they give traffic to big brands bigger and bigger. So it comes back to

bigger and bigger. So it comes back to bigger and bigger. So it comes back to what I was saying earlier. They tend to

what I was saying earlier. They tend to what I was saying earlier. They tend to favor more and more trusted brands,

favor more and more trusted brands, favor more and more trusted brands, trusted sites because people click more

trusted sites because people click more trusted sites because people click more on them because because they know them

on them because because they know them on them because because they know them because they've seen them over and over because they've seen them over and over because they've seen them over and over again. So the same thing is happening.

again. So the same thing is happening. again. So the same thing is happening. There's a huge concentration of traffic

There's a huge concentration of traffic There's a huge concentration of traffic going through big baronss. Um, so this

going through big baronss. Um, so this going through big baronss. Um, so this is a trend that is just going to keep

is a trend that is just going to keep is a trend that is just going to keep going, meaning that there is no such

going, meaning that there is no such going, meaning that there is no such thing as free traffic. There's no such

thing as free traffic. There's no such thing as free traffic. There's no such thing as taking for granted any sources

thing as taking for granted any sources thing as taking for granted any sources of traffic. You're going to have to play

of traffic. You're going to have to play of traffic. You're going to have to play the game of every platform. So, uh,

the game of every platform. So, uh, the game of every platform. So, uh, Google doesn't want you to actually go

Google doesn't want you to actually go Google doesn't want you to actually go anywhere um, anymore. LinkedIn doesn't

anywhere um, anymore. LinkedIn doesn't anywhere um, anymore. LinkedIn doesn't want you to go anywhere. Uh, Twitter or

want you to go anywhere. Uh, Twitter or want you to go anywhere. Uh, Twitter or X or whatever the [ __ ] uh, it's called

X or whatever the [ __ ] uh, it's called X or whatever the [ __ ] uh, it's called nowadays. Uh, they don't want you to go

nowadays. Uh, they don't want you to go nowadays. Uh, they don't want you to go anywhere. Um, so you have to play the

anywhere. Um, so you have to play the anywhere. Um, so you have to play the game. Um, now if we take distance from

game. Um, now if we take distance from game. Um, now if we take distance from that and just think about an affiliate

that and just think about an affiliate that and just think about an affiliate website in particular making money

website in particular making money website in particular making money through like people clicking and then

through like people clicking and then through like people clicking and then maybe 5% buy something and then you take

maybe 5% buy something and then you take maybe 5% buy something and then you take a commission on that. Well, is your

a commission on that. Well, is your a commission on that. Well, is your affiliate site uh in a unique position?

affiliate site uh in a unique position? affiliate site uh in a unique position? Meaning are you able to say we are the

Meaning are you able to say we are the Meaning are you able to say we are the only one in that category of affiliate

only one in that category of affiliate only one in that category of affiliate website or in the casino industry or

website or in the casino industry or website or in the casino industry or whatever to offer to solve this

whatever to offer to solve this whatever to offer to solve this particular problem for this group of particular problem for this group of particular problem for this group of people that alternatives could be other

people that alternatives could be other people that alternatives could be other affiliate website but also anything else

affiliate website but also anything else affiliate website but also anything else um can't offer and if you're not able to

um can't offer and if you're not able to um can't offer and if you're not able to do that then you already don't have uh

do that then you already don't have uh do that then you already don't have uh foundations and so if you don't have

foundations and so if you don't have foundations and so if you don't have foundations everything might crumble

foundations everything might crumble foundations everything might crumble um because affiliate website is just a

um because affiliate website is just a um because affiliate website is just a way to deliver that but that value which

way to deliver that but that value which way to deliver that but that value which hopefully should be there meaning you're

hopefully should be there meaning you're hopefully should be there meaning you're solving problems that others don't uh

solving problems that others don't uh solving problems that others don't uh but could be anything right you

but could be anything right you but could be anything right you essentially with a unique positioning

essentially with a unique positioning essentially with a unique positioning you could be you need to be in a

you could be you need to be in a you could be you need to be in a position to say even if Google stop

position to say even if Google stop position to say even if Google stop sending traffic to us we'll be fine

sending traffic to us we'll be fine sending traffic to us we'll be fine because we are actually valuable and so

because we are actually valuable and so because we are actually valuable and so therefore we'll find new ways to reach therefore we'll find new ways to reach therefore we'll find new ways to reach people um but you know a lot of stuff

people um but you know a lot of stuff people um but you know a lot of stuff that I've seen in the affiliate industry

that I've seen in the affiliate industry that I've seen in the affiliate industry for a while is is based on hacks and

for a while is is based on hacks and for a while is is based on hacks and quick fixes or quick like trends that

quick fixes or quick like trends that quick fixes or quick like trends that come and go. Um, so it's always

come and go. Um, so it's always come and go. Um, so it's always something to be very careful of with something to be very careful of with something to be very careful of with auto foundations. Things might crumble.

auto foundations. Things might crumble. auto foundations. Things might crumble. You actually answered part of my next

You actually answered part of my next You actually answered part of my next question, which is like I don't really

question, which is like I don't really question, which is like I don't really see people combining the concept of

see people combining the concept of see people combining the concept of affiliate marketing websites with affiliate marketing websites with affiliate marketing websites with positioning. Like everything you just

positioning. Like everything you just positioning. Like everything you just said about positioning, it's like, well,

said about positioning, it's like, well, said about positioning, it's like, well, why is your site special? you know, and

why is your site special? you know, and why is your site special? you know, and if you're just another site and you're

if you're just another site and you're if you're just another site and you're one of, let's say, a hundred or thousand

one of, let's say, a hundred or thousand one of, let's say, a hundred or thousand of them, I mean, it's no wonder why

of them, I mean, it's no wonder why of them, I mean, it's no wonder why Google's gonna actually make smarter

Google's gonna actually make smarter Google's gonna actually make smarter decisions of how they're gonna actually

decisions of how they're gonna actually decisions of how they're gonna actually literally position you in their search

literally position you in their search literally position you in their search engine. So, um, yeah, it's like I I

engine. So, um, yeah, it's like I I engine. So, um, yeah, it's like I I haven't seen anyone talk about this haven't seen anyone talk about this haven't seen anyone talk about this topic before, positioning and affiliate

topic before, positioning and affiliate topic before, positioning and affiliate marketing, and I wanted to give an

marketing, and I wanted to give an marketing, and I wanted to give an example. Why not? Yeah, you know, like

example. Why not? Yeah, you know, like example. Why not? Yeah, you know, like sorry to cut you, but like it's it's I

sorry to cut you, but like it's it's I sorry to cut you, but like it's it's I think it's it's it's a classic case of

think it's it's it's a classic case of think it's it's it's a classic case of um focusing on on a particular way to

um focusing on on a particular way to um focusing on on a particular way to see this thing that people are doing.

see this thing that people are doing. see this thing that people are doing. So, they're doing affiliate websites and

So, they're doing affiliate websites and So, they're doing affiliate websites and whatever, but at the end of the day,

whatever, but at the end of the day, whatever, but at the end of the day, it's always the same thing. It's it's it's always the same thing. It's it's it's always the same thing. It's it's it's serving people with stuff of value

it's serving people with stuff of value it's serving people with stuff of value that they are happy to give money to you

that they are happy to give money to you that they are happy to give money to you for and hopefully they remember you.

for and hopefully they remember you. for and hopefully they remember you. Hopefully talk about you with others. I Hopefully talk about you with others. I Hopefully talk about you with others. I mean, it doesn't change anything that mean, it doesn't change anything that mean, it doesn't change anything that this one way to deliver that is through

this one way to deliver that is through this one way to deliver that is through a website, uh, making money through

a website, uh, making money through a website, uh, making money through affiliate stuff. So, yeah, it's it's

affiliate stuff. So, yeah, it's it's affiliate stuff. So, yeah, it's it's just crazy to me. I understand why,

just crazy to me. I understand why, just crazy to me. I understand why, right? Like, you think about it, it's right? Like, you think about it, it's right? Like, you think about it, it's super easy to create an affiliate

super easy to create an affiliate super easy to create an affiliate website. I mean, that's the point,

website. I mean, that's the point, website. I mean, that's the point, right? The barrier to entry is the

right? The barrier to entry is the right? The barrier to entry is the lowest of the law. Anyone with an

lowest of the law. Anyone with an lowest of the law. Anyone with an internet and a brain uh with internet on

internet and a brain uh with internet on internet and a brain uh with internet on a brain can can create an affiliate

a brain can can create an affiliate a brain can can create an affiliate website in the next 30 minutes. It's

website in the next 30 minutes. It's website in the next 30 minutes. It's super easy to grab affiliate codes from

super easy to grab affiliate codes from super easy to grab affiliate codes from any like Blue Host and GoDaddy and

any like Blue Host and GoDaddy and any like Blue Host and GoDaddy and whatever. It's super easy. Super easy to

whatever. It's super easy. Super easy to whatever. It's super easy. Super easy to create a website. I mean, what is what

create a website. I mean, what is what create a website. I mean, what is what is there that you do that no one else

is there that you do that no one else is there that you do that no one else can claim to be doing with just that

can claim to be doing with just that can claim to be doing with just that with such a low barrier to entry? So

with such a low barrier to entry? So with such a low barrier to entry? So yeah, it's I think the days of doing

yeah, it's I think the days of doing yeah, it's I think the days of doing that and getting money is over because

that and getting money is over because that and getting money is over because yeah, Google doesn't like uh sending

yeah, Google doesn't like uh sending yeah, Google doesn't like uh sending traffic to to to places where people are

traffic to to to places where people are traffic to to to places where people are disappointed after. So

what to do? I agree. I I think there's what to do? I agree. I I think there's actually a lot of affiliates that not actually a lot of affiliates that not actually a lot of affiliates that not only are they losing their revenue and

only are they losing their revenue and only are they losing their revenue and search traffic that they were used to search traffic that they were used to search traffic that they were used to getting, I think they're actually kind

getting, I think they're actually kind getting, I think they're actually kind of frozen. Like they're kind of like, I

of frozen. Like they're kind of like, I of frozen. Like they're kind of like, I need more SEO to get out of it. And I

need more SEO to get out of it. And I need more SEO to get out of it. And I think they they think SEO is the answer,

think they they think SEO is the answer, think they they think SEO is the answer, but I think everything else on the other

but I think everything else on the other but I think everything else on the other side is actually part of the answer.

side is actually part of the answer. side is actually part of the answer. Like I think if you're a really good Like I think if you're a really good Like I think if you're a really good SEO, you'd actually start asking the

SEO, you'd actually start asking the SEO, you'd actually start asking the questions that you're asking, which is questions that you're asking, which is questions that you're asking, which is like what are we doing about positioning

like what are we doing about positioning like what are we doing about positioning and why are we even existing? Yeah.

and why are we even existing? Yeah. and why are we even existing? Yeah. Because I uh I was listening to uh your

Because I uh I was listening to uh your Because I uh I was listening to uh your previous episodes. Uh I'm not going to

previous episodes. Uh I'm not going to previous episodes. Uh I'm not going to remember the person who you interviewed,

remember the person who you interviewed, remember the person who you interviewed, but he was saying at the start like

but he was saying at the start like but he was saying at the start like treat like you should treat your

treat like you should treat your treat like you should treat your affiliate website like a business. Yeah,

affiliate website like a business. Yeah, affiliate website like a business. Yeah, you should. Absolutely. I mean it is and

you should. Absolutely. I mean it is and you should. Absolutely. I mean it is and it's not because it's so easy to do and

it's not because it's so easy to do and it's not because it's so easy to do and put up that you can't take it seriously.

put up that you can't take it seriously. put up that you can't take it seriously. So I think a lot of folks in that

So I think a lot of folks in that So I think a lot of folks in that space do see probably that as a game

space do see probably that as a game space do see probably that as a game almost like it's a it's a cat and mouse

almost like it's a it's a cat and mouse almost like it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? It's like trying to find

game, right? It's like trying to find game, right? It's like trying to find the little loopholes that Google hasn't

the little loopholes that Google hasn't the little loopholes that Google hasn't covered yet and trying to make money

covered yet and trying to make money covered yet and trying to make money this way. There's a bit of that, right?

this way. There's a bit of that, right? this way. There's a bit of that, right? So you can't be smarter than a

So you can't be smarter than a So you can't be smarter than a multi-billion uh dollar uh company. And

multi-billion uh dollar uh company. And multi-billion uh dollar uh company. And so I don't think you should be. instead so I don't think you should be. instead so I don't think you should be. instead of using your smarts to to serve people

of using your smarts to to serve people of using your smarts to to serve people in in ways that haven't been uh done

in in ways that haven't been uh done in in ways that haven't been uh done before. before. before. So um one of the key stuff again talking

So um one of the key stuff again talking So um one of the key stuff again talking about about about manif one of the key stuff that is

manif one of the key stuff that is manif one of the key stuff that is important is traffic doesn't mean

important is traffic doesn't mean important is traffic doesn't mean influence and it's not because 90% of

influence and it's not because 90% of influence and it's not because 90% of your traffic comes from Google that this

your traffic comes from Google that this your traffic comes from Google that this is you need to spend 90% of your

is you need to spend 90% of your is you need to spend 90% of your resources because a lot of people

resources because a lot of people resources because a lot of people research for your brand name because

research for your brand name because research for your brand name because they've heard from you from other they've heard from you from other they've heard from you from other places. So you have social media, you

places. So you have social media, you places. So you have social media, you have the the influencer, you have TV,

have the the influencer, you have TV, have the the influencer, you have TV, radio, you have such an ecosystem of

radio, you have such an ecosystem of radio, you have such an ecosystem of stuff. So if I was an affiliate marketer

stuff. So if I was an affiliate marketer stuff. So if I was an affiliate marketer having a bunch of websites with just

having a bunch of websites with just having a bunch of websites with just basic links and nothing else, I would

basic links and nothing else, I would basic links and nothing else, I would just think about which one is working

just think about which one is working just think about which one is working the best. Let's get to know customers,

the best. Let's get to know customers, the best. Let's get to know customers, those people who buy from me. Let's

those people who buy from me. Let's those people who buy from me. Let's interview them or let's spend a day with

interview them or let's spend a day with interview them or let's spend a day with them. Let's gather these six insights I

them. Let's gather these six insights I them. Let's gather these six insights I cover in the book. So what is the job

cover in the book. So what is the job cover in the book. So what is the job that they have? what is the not the job

that they have? what is the not the job that they have? what is the not the job in term of position but what is the the

in term of position but what is the the in term of position but what is the the goal that they want to achieve what are

goal that they want to achieve what are goal that they want to achieve what are the alternatives they might consider

the alternatives they might consider the alternatives they might consider what are the struggles that they what are the struggles that they what are the struggles that they struggle with right now with those struggle with right now with those struggle with right now with those alternatives uh what information can you

alternatives uh what information can you alternatives uh what information can you get about the segment they're part of

get about the segment they're part of get about the segment they're part of and what triggers uh compel them to act

and what triggers uh compel them to act and what triggers uh compel them to act so those are the six basic insight if

so those are the six basic insight if so those are the six basic insight if you know the answers to those things

you know the answers to those things you know the answers to those things then you can reverse engineer a unique

then you can reverse engineer a unique then you can reverse engineer a unique positioning and it might take more than

positioning and it might take more than positioning and it might take more than just a bunch of links on the ite you

just a bunch of links on the ite you just a bunch of links on the ite you might have to do something that is might have to do something that is might have to do something that is different but it's not about you right

different but it's not about you right different but it's not about you right it's always about the customer

it's always about the customer it's always about the customer so you need to start I think using those

so you need to start I think using those so you need to start I think using those those neurons that you use to try to

those neurons that you use to try to those neurons that you use to try to hack Google to understand people serve

hack Google to understand people serve hack Google to understand people serve them something of value and you won't

them something of value and you won't them something of value and you won't worry that much anymore about Google

worry that much anymore about Google worry that much anymore about Google taking your lunch yeah it's kind of

taking your lunch yeah it's kind of taking your lunch yeah it's kind of funny because like I've been in the funny because like I've been in the funny because like I've been in the affiliate marketing space a long time

affiliate marketing space a long time affiliate marketing space a long time we're a SAS company now catering to

we're a SAS company now catering to we're a SAS company now catering to affiliates and in the SAS face. It's

affiliates and in the SAS face. It's affiliates and in the SAS face. It's kind of like you would try to interview

kind of like you would try to interview kind of like you would try to interview your customers and get to know them. So,

your customers and get to know them. So, your customers and get to know them. So, you would do these surveys, but I can't

you would do these surveys, but I can't you would do these surveys, but I can't recall a time when I've been on the like

recall a time when I've been on the like recall a time when I've been on the like the the the buyer side on an affiliate

the the the buyer side on an affiliate the the the buyer side on an affiliate site and going, "When are they asking me

site and going, "When are they asking me site and going, "When are they asking me stuff?" And also, they're not always

stuff?" And also, they're not always stuff?" And also, they're not always collecting my email. And if they are,

collecting my email. And if they are, collecting my email. And if they are, that's great. But when they do, it's

that's great. But when they do, it's that's great. But when they do, it's only sell. It's not like, "Can we have a

only sell. It's not like, "Can we have a only sell. It's not like, "Can we have a conversation? Can I ask you something?

conversation? Can I ask you something? conversation? Can I ask you something? Can I ask you insights?" and who cares

Can I ask you insights?" and who cares Can I ask you insights?" and who cares if they're actually going to put this if they're actually going to put this if they're actually going to put this into their CRM and use it to better

into their CRM and use it to better into their CRM and use it to better market to me. Um, I just don't think

market to me. Um, I just don't think market to me. Um, I just don't think they're doing it, but I know there's they're doing it, but I know there's they're doing it, but I know there's tools that actually exist for this

tools that actually exist for this tools that actually exist for this purpose.

purpose. purpose. Yeah. I mean, so, so there's plenty of

Yeah. I mean, so, so there's plenty of Yeah. I mean, so, so there's plenty of ways you can get insight. So, you don't

ways you can get insight. So, you don't ways you can get insight. So, you don't have to interview people. You don't have have to interview people. You don't have have to interview people. You don't have to talk to people directly. There's to talk to people directly. There's to talk to people directly. There's plenty of ways. So, you can you can do

plenty of ways. So, you can you can do plenty of ways. So, you can you can do customer interviews, but you can also do

customer interviews, but you can also do customer interviews, but you can also do surveys. You can also do review uh

surveys. You can also do review uh surveys. You can also do review uh review mining, right? Which is quite

review mining, right? Which is quite review mining, right? Which is quite helpful, especially in online space. You

helpful, especially in online space. You helpful, especially in online space. You can like mine reviews from direct

can like mine reviews from direct can like mine reviews from direct competitors and identify the six insight

competitors and identify the six insight competitors and identify the six insight I shared earlier, right? Uh you can go

I shared earlier, right? Uh you can go I shared earlier, right? Uh you can go inside communities where your customer

inside communities where your customer inside communities where your customer hang out whether it's online or offline

hang out whether it's online or offline hang out whether it's online or offline and just listen and have conversations

and just listen and have conversations and just listen and have conversations and understand them at a deeper level.

and understand them at a deeper level. and understand them at a deeper level. You can be a fly on the wall as well.

You can be a fly on the wall as well. You can be a fly on the wall as well. Meaning you're literally um if you if

Meaning you're literally um if you if Meaning you're literally um if you if you have the chance to spend time with you have the chance to spend time with you have the chance to spend time with customers in a setting where they just

customers in a setting where they just customers in a setting where they just work or whatever, you can be a fly on work or whatever, you can be a fly on work or whatever, you can be a fly on the wall and and just understand what's the wall and and just understand what's the wall and and just understand what's going on. You can do method marketing.

going on. You can do method marketing. going on. You can do method marketing. You can use meaning like like method

You can use meaning like like method You can use meaning like like method acting. You use the products or to try

acting. You use the products or to try acting. You use the products or to try to have empathy for folks using it. Like

to have empathy for folks using it. Like to have empathy for folks using it. Like there's plenty of ways. Uh but the key

there's plenty of ways. Uh but the key there's plenty of ways. Uh but the key is always the same like you need to find

is always the same like you need to find is always the same like you need to find out what is the goal that they're trying

out what is the goal that they're trying out what is the goal that they're trying to achieve. What is the alternative they

to achieve. What is the alternative they to achieve. What is the alternative they actually looking into? What are they

actually looking into? What are they actually looking into? What are they struggling with related to those

struggling with related to those struggling with related to those alternatives? Why can't they get the job

alternatives? Why can't they get the job alternatives? Why can't they get the job done? Right? What what is stopping them

done? Right? What what is stopping them done? Right? What what is stopping them to get where they want to be? Uh what's

to get where they want to be? Uh what's to get where they want to be? Uh what's the category? Well, how do they call

the category? Well, how do they call the category? Well, how do they call what you do and and what are the trigger

what you do and and what are the trigger what you do and and what are the trigger events, right? With that, you have such

events, right? With that, you have such events, right? With that, you have such a strong a strong a strong foundation that enables you then to play

foundation that enables you then to play foundation that enables you then to play and have fun with. But if you don't have

and have fun with. But if you don't have and have fun with. But if you don't have those information, this information like

those information, this information like those information, this information like it's again there's no foundation.

it's again there's no foundation. it's again there's no foundation. Therefore, it's a house of cards and

Therefore, it's a house of cards and Therefore, it's a house of cards and every time the wind blows a bit uh bit

every time the wind blows a bit uh bit every time the wind blows a bit uh bit faster like Google change the algorithm

faster like Google change the algorithm faster like Google change the algorithm and whatever then you you struggle. So

and whatever then you you struggle. So and whatever then you you struggle. So yeah, you do need very strong foundation

yeah, you do need very strong foundation yeah, you do need very strong foundation nowadays. And you know the barrier to

nowadays. And you know the barrier to nowadays. And you know the barrier to entry to pretty much everything online

entry to pretty much everything online entry to pretty much everything online related to affiliate or not is getting

related to affiliate or not is getting related to affiliate or not is getting lower and lower, right? Creating images,

lower and lower, right? Creating images, lower and lower, right? Creating images, you don't need a designer anymore. Uh

you don't need a designer anymore. Uh you don't need a designer anymore. Uh writing copy, you don't need a copyriter

writing copy, you don't need a copyriter writing copy, you don't need a copyriter anymore. I mean, not necessarily good

anymore. I mean, not necessarily good anymore. I mean, not necessarily good copy, but you don't need you don't need

copy, but you don't need you don't need copy, but you don't need you don't need that necessarily. Um all of that is

that necessarily. Um all of that is that necessarily. Um all of that is going away as an advantage. The only

going away as an advantage. The only going away as an advantage. The only thing that is left

thing that is left thing that is left is the real truth, the real foundation

is the real truth, the real foundation is the real truth, the real foundation of marketing, like actually doing

of marketing, like actually doing of marketing, like actually doing something worth doing for a group of

something worth doing for a group of something worth doing for a group of people who care about that thing and

people who care about that thing and people who care about that thing and being remembered, being trusted and all

being remembered, being trusted and all being remembered, being trusted and all of that. That's the only thing they have of that. That's the only thing they have of that. That's the only thing they have left. Everything else is is automated,

left. Everything else is is automated, left. Everything else is is automated, done by [ __ ] like that. So, it's back to

done by [ __ ] like that. So, it's back to done by [ __ ] like that. So, it's back to fundamentals. So, next question I've got

fundamentals. So, next question I've got fundamentals. So, next question I've got is sometimes I like to ask self-serving

is sometimes I like to ask self-serving is sometimes I like to ask self-serving questions. uh cuz sometimes uh you know

questions. uh cuz sometimes uh you know questions. uh cuz sometimes uh you know our situation helps either other SAS

our situation helps either other SAS our situation helps either other SAS companies or sometimes the ideas are

companies or sometimes the ideas are companies or sometimes the ideas are clonable to affiliate marketing. So

clonable to affiliate marketing. So clonable to affiliate marketing. So here's our situation. We're a SAS

here's our situation. We're a SAS here's our situation. We're a SAS company. We think we're a useful tool

company. We think we're a useful tool company. We think we're a useful tool for our potential affiliates. We believe

for our potential affiliates. We believe for our potential affiliates. We believe our our users are problem aware but not

our our users are problem aware but not our our users are problem aware but not solution aware. And just wondering like

solution aware. And just wondering like solution aware. And just wondering like when you hear these things if you were when you hear these things if you were when you hear these things if you were to deal with a SAS company, how do you

to deal with a SAS company, how do you to deal with a SAS company, how do you help the this situation? I think

help the this situation? I think help the this situation? I think marketing is part of the answer but

marketing is part of the answer but marketing is part of the answer but no but let's go specific, right? I mean,

no but let's go specific, right? I mean, no but let's go specific, right? I mean, how how long do we have? We got u like

how how long do we have? We got u like how how long do we have? We got u like at least half hour. Okay, so let's let's

at least half hour. Okay, so let's let's at least half hour. Okay, so let's let's let's let me not give you a [ __ ]

let's let me not give you a [ __ ] let's let me not give you a [ __ ] generic answer. Let's dive deeper.

generic answer. Let's dive deeper. generic answer. Let's dive deeper. Right. So

Right. So Right. So the first of all, problem aware,

the first of all, problem aware, the first of all, problem aware, solution aware. I hate those phrases.

solution aware. I hate those phrases. solution aware. I hate those phrases. It's not because we can name things and

It's not because we can name things and It's not because we can name things and and explain them that they are right. I

and explain them that they are right. I and explain them that they are right. I I I just don't connect with those this

I I just don't connect with those this I I just don't connect with those this way way of thinking. Um because it's not

way way of thinking. Um because it's not way way of thinking. Um because it's not as clear-cut. It's not as linear. It's

as clear-cut. It's not as linear. It's as clear-cut. It's not as linear. It's not as oh first I'm problem aware. I

not as oh first I'm problem aware. I not as oh first I'm problem aware. I have a problem with this then now I'm

have a problem with this then now I'm have a problem with this then now I'm looking for solution. It just doesn't

looking for solution. It just doesn't looking for solution. It just doesn't happen organically this way. Anyway, I'm

happen organically this way. Anyway, I'm happen organically this way. Anyway, I'm not a big fan of it. And particularly

not a big fan of it. And particularly not a big fan of it. And particularly the first phase of that system of that

the first phase of that system of that the first phase of that system of that framework which is problem unaware.

framework which is problem unaware. framework which is problem unaware. Please, please try to find someone who's

Please, please try to find someone who's Please, please try to find someone who's problem unaware who has a who has there

problem unaware who has a who has there problem unaware who has a who has there is a big problem but they're not aware

is a big problem but they're not aware is a big problem but they're not aware of it in a B2B setting or whatever like

of it in a B2B setting or whatever like of it in a B2B setting or whatever like you if it's a big problem they know

you if it's a big problem they know you if it's a big problem they know about it like it's just anyway that's

about it like it's just anyway that's about it like it's just anyway that's that's one thing so so how do you how um

that's one thing so so how do you how um that's one thing so so how do you how um how to grow this right how to grow this

how to grow this right how to grow this how to grow this right how to grow this brand so you're saying affiliate

brand so you're saying affiliate brand so you're saying affiliate marketers that that's the first thing I marketers that that's the first thing I marketers that that's the first thing I would I would I would double down on

would I would I would double down on would I would I would double down on okay but what why would they use your

okay but what why would they use your okay but what why would they use your service? Like what's the what's the goal

service? Like what's the what's the goal service? Like what's the what's the goal that they have? The the goals that um we

that they have? The the goals that um we that they have? The the goals that um we do is like we help them get all their

do is like we help them get all their do is like we help them get all their data like all their traffic and revenue

data like all their traffic and revenue data like all their traffic and revenue data from their affiliate programs. So

data from their affiliate programs. So data from their affiliate programs. So if you try doing this yourself, you're

if you try doing this yourself, you're if you try doing this yourself, you're like it's just not standard. And when

like it's just not standard. And when like it's just not standard. And when you actually search for that as a

you actually search for that as a you actually search for that as a concept, you don't really find us. You

concept, you don't really find us. You concept, you don't really find us. You find like four different types of find like four different types of find like four different types of affiliate marketing products. So they

affiliate marketing products. So they affiliate marketing products. So they kind of want their data, but they don't

kind of want their data, but they don't kind of want their data, but they don't understand the benefits of like using a

understand the benefits of like using a understand the benefits of like using a tool like ours to record the data and

tool like ours to record the data and tool like ours to record the data and have it daily and automated. So we don't

have it daily and automated. So we don't have it daily and automated. So we don't really always push how much time it can

really always push how much time it can really always push how much time it can save them. Okay. So So just so that I I

save them. Okay. So So just so that I I save them. Okay. So So just so that I I I remember I I understand correctly. So

I remember I I understand correctly. So I remember I I understand correctly. So you would aggregate data from all the

you would aggregate data from all the you would aggregate data from all the different affiliate platforms. Exactly.

different affiliate platforms. Exactly. different affiliate platforms. Exactly. Yeah. everything like their account,

Yeah. everything like their account, Yeah. everything like their account, brand data, campaign data, and even

brand data, campaign data, and even brand data, campaign data, and even click ID data if they have dynamic

click ID data if they have dynamic click ID data if they have dynamic variables for like really deep stuff. So

variables for like really deep stuff. So variables for like really deep stuff. So let's say for example, I don't know, I

let's say for example, I don't know, I let's say for example, I don't know, I am an affiliate website like Kazino

am an affiliate website like Kazino am an affiliate website like Kazino affiliate website and one of them I sent

affiliate website and one of them I sent affiliate website and one of them I sent directly to affiliate program. Another

directly to affiliate program. Another directly to affiliate program. Another one is through a third party that

one is through a third party that one is through a third party that manages the affiliate. So you aggregate

manages the affiliate. So you aggregate manages the affiliate. So you aggregate everything. Okay. Okay. So the big alarm

everything. Okay. Okay. So the big alarm everything. Okay. Okay. So the big alarm bell that I hear um you know if we think

bell that I hear um you know if we think bell that I hear um you know if we think about the six insight is the category

about the six insight is the category about the six insight is the category meaning what is the thing that you offer

meaning what is the thing that you offer meaning what is the thing that you offer how what is what's the name of it and is

how what is what's the name of it and is how what is what's the name of it and is it in demand is it something that people

it in demand is it something that people it in demand is it something that people already search for the problem that I

already search for the problem that I already search for the problem that I hear is the fact that yes there might

hear is the fact that yes there might hear is the fact that yes there might very well be a job to be done for people

very well be a job to be done for people very well be a job to be done for people meaning like they want to aggregate meaning like they want to aggregate meaning like they want to aggregate their data there might very well be a

their data there might very well be a their data there might very well be a clear alternative which is doing that clear alternative which is doing that clear alternative which is doing that manually uh there might very well be

manually uh there might very well be manually uh there might very well be struggle when it comes to well they want

struggle when it comes to well they want struggle when it comes to well they want to stop wasting their time doing it they

to stop wasting their time doing it they to stop wasting their time doing it they want to uh feel good about their

want to uh feel good about their want to uh feel good about their business feel like they're control of it

business feel like they're control of it business feel like they're control of it they can see everything at once uh you

they can see everything at once uh you they can see everything at once uh you have a clear segment like affiliate have a clear segment like affiliate have a clear segment like affiliate marketers we can go deeper but it's

marketers we can go deeper but it's marketers we can go deeper but it's mainly like probably affiliate marketers

mainly like probably affiliate marketers mainly like probably affiliate marketers who are like professional affiliate who are like professional affiliate who are like professional affiliate marketers who do that day in day out to

marketers who do that day in day out to marketers who do that day in day out to have lots of different tools connected

have lots of different tools connected have lots of different tools connected okay now the problem

okay now the problem okay now the problem is the category that you're mentioning

is the category that you're mentioning is the category that you're mentioning you need to like quote unquote educate

you need to like quote unquote educate you need to like quote unquote educate the market, right? You need to like move

the market, right? You need to like move the market, right? You need to like move them from problem aware aware. That's

them from problem aware aware. That's them from problem aware aware. That's one of the hardest things to do. Okay?

one of the hardest things to do. Okay? one of the hardest things to do. Okay? And that's typically one of the biggest

And that's typically one of the biggest And that's typically one of the biggest hurdle that folks trying to have a

hurdle that folks trying to have a hurdle that folks trying to have a unique positioning struggle with is that

unique positioning struggle with is that unique positioning struggle with is that they are not able to place themsel in a

they are not able to place themsel in a they are not able to place themsel in a category that is clear, that is in

category that is clear, that is in category that is clear, that is in demand in order to serve the way it

demand in order to serve the way it demand in order to serve the way it already exists.

already exists. already exists. uh you cannot generate demand from

uh you cannot generate demand from uh you cannot generate demand from scratch. You have to lean on something

scratch. You have to lean on something scratch. You have to lean on something that exists whether it's like struggles

that exists whether it's like struggles that exists whether it's like struggles that a lot of people have in common that that a lot of people have in common that that a lot of people have in common that are desperate for a solution or whether

are desperate for a solution or whether are desperate for a solution or whether a category that is like you know

a category that is like you know a category that is like you know something that is trendy that people are

something that is trendy that people are something that is trendy that people are searching for. So you can't generate

searching for. So you can't generate searching for. So you can't generate demand from scratch. So the problem is

demand from scratch. So the problem is demand from scratch. So the problem is like it's like how would you define in a

like it's like how would you define in a like it's like how would you define in a few words the the software like what's

few words the the software like what's few words the the software like what's the category if you had to place it the category if you had to place it the category if you had to place it somewhere?

somewhere? somewhere? category. I call it affiliate stats and

category. I call it affiliate stats and category. I call it affiliate stats and I sometimes will describe to people I

I sometimes will describe to people I I sometimes will describe to people I say we're like the QuickBooks for say we're like the QuickBooks for say we're like the QuickBooks for affiliates. We get all of your data.

affiliates. We get all of your data. affiliates. We get all of your data. Okay. So, yeah, like to me I I would

Okay. So, yeah, like to me I I would Okay. So, yeah, like to me I I would zero in on that that the big because you

zero in on that that the big because you zero in on that that the big because you don't have a lot of folks searching for

don't have a lot of folks searching for don't have a lot of folks searching for that right on Google, let's say.

that right on Google, let's say. that right on Google, let's say. Correct. It's uh we got a lot of brand

Correct. It's uh we got a lot of brand Correct. It's uh we got a lot of brand search, but that's from years of search, but that's from years of search, but that's from years of building the brand. So, people are

building the brand. So, people are building the brand. So, people are searching for us. we have that and we

searching for us. we have that and we searching for us. we have that and we want more of it.

want more of it. want more of it. Um yeah and so so that's the problem

Um yeah and so so that's the problem Um yeah and so so that's the problem because you are working really hard to

because you are working really hard to because you are working really hard to educate the market right to make sure

educate the market right to make sure educate the market right to make sure that they know you exist to make sure to

that they know you exist to make sure to that they know you exist to make sure to understand they have a problem to make

understand they have a problem to make understand they have a problem to make sure they understand that there's a sure they understand that there's a sure they understand that there's a solution out there and then yeah you get

solution out there and then yeah you get solution out there and then yeah you get branded search back but that sounds like

branded search back but that sounds like branded search back but that sounds like swimming against the current a lot it

swimming against the current a lot it swimming against the current a lot it sounds like a lot of effort right it's

sounds like a lot of effort right it's sounds like a lot of effort right it's so yeah I can I can empathize with that

so yeah I can I can empathize with that so yeah I can I can empathize with that I used to have a marketing agency pretty

I used to have a marketing agency pretty I used to have a marketing agency pretty much doing making the same mistake I'm

much doing making the same mistake I'm much doing making the same mistake I'm going to call it a mistake just for the going to call it a mistake just for the going to call it a mistake just for the sake of it again I don't know your

sake of it again I don't know your sake of it again I don't know your business inside out and whatever but business inside out and whatever but business inside out and whatever but just from an perspective that's how I

just from an perspective that's how I just from an perspective that's how I perceive like I used to sell try to sell

perceive like I used to sell try to sell perceive like I used to sell try to sell conversion rate optimization services to

conversion rate optimization services to conversion rate optimization services to companies in Dublin uh Dublin Ireland

companies in Dublin uh Dublin Ireland companies in Dublin uh Dublin Ireland who had no clue about what CRO was the

who had no clue about what CRO was the who had no clue about what CRO was the category was not in demand and even

category was not in demand and even category was not in demand and even though they had a problem they didn't

though they had a problem they didn't though they had a problem they didn't see it the same way meaning like their

see it the same way meaning like their see it the same way meaning like their problem wasn't we need to convert more

problem wasn't we need to convert more problem wasn't we need to convert more traffic their problem in their head was

traffic their problem in their head was traffic their problem in their head was always we need more traffic. Yeah.

always we need more traffic. Yeah. always we need more traffic. Yeah. Right. So I was desperate to try to like

Right. So I was desperate to try to like Right. So I was desperate to try to like argue and educate them about no no

argue and educate them about no no argue and educate them about no no that's not really a problem. That's very

that's not really a problem. That's very that's not really a problem. That's very tiring. Right. And I burnt out within a

tiring. Right. And I burnt out within a tiring. Right. And I burnt out within a year and a half. Right. So so obviously

year and a half. Right. So so obviously year and a half. Right. So so obviously I don't want that to happen. So

I don't want that to happen. So I don't want that to happen. So my typically so I have a very pragmatic

my typically so I have a very pragmatic my typically so I have a very pragmatic approach nowadays from from this this

approach nowadays from from this this approach nowadays from from this this lesson and others. So I always try to

lesson and others. So I always try to lesson and others. So I always try to find to lean on something that exists

find to lean on something that exists find to lean on something that exists that is in demand and then you can

that is in demand and then you can that is in demand and then you can always introduce them to more. So like

always introduce them to more. So like always introduce them to more. So like it's like the Trojan horse. So first you

it's like the Trojan horse. So first you it's like the Trojan horse. So first you give them what they think they need and give them what they think they need and give them what they think they need and then you give them what they actually then you give them what they actually then you give them what they actually need. So if you think that they actually

need. So if you think that they actually need. So if you think that they actually need affiliate stats

need affiliate stats need affiliate stats aggregation but no one's searching for

aggregation but no one's searching for aggregation but no one's searching for that then what can you give them that

that then what can you give them that that then what can you give them that they actually need right? So I would use

they actually need right? So I would use they actually need right? So I would use I would use like a a two-part strategy

I would use like a a two-part strategy I would use like a a two-part strategy like this, right? Where you need to find

like this, right? Where you need to find like this, right? Where you need to find something that is currently in demand

something that is currently in demand something that is currently in demand for affiliate marketers. Yeah. And the

for affiliate marketers. Yeah. And the for affiliate marketers. Yeah. And the aggregation is almost the cherry on uh

aggregation is almost the cherry on uh aggregation is almost the cherry on uh cherry on top the thing you introduce

cherry on top the thing you introduce cherry on top the thing you introduce later, but you use the the first one as

later, but you use the the first one as later, but you use the the first one as a way to channel that demand.

a way to channel that demand. a way to channel that demand. Um, if you don't do this,

Um, if you don't do this, Um, if you don't do this, uh, because you're bootstrap and you uh, because you're bootstrap and you uh, because you're bootstrap and you don't have a lot of resources, it takes

don't have a lot of resources, it takes don't have a lot of resources, it takes so much time and money to educate a

so much time and money to educate a so much time and money to educate a market. I mean, it's one of the hardest

market. I mean, it's one of the hardest market. I mean, it's one of the hardest things to do. People don't care about

things to do. People don't care about things to do. People don't care about you. You need to reach a lot of people.

you. You need to reach a lot of people. you. You need to reach a lot of people. You need to repeat the same message. You

You need to repeat the same message. You You need to repeat the same message. You need to make them understand. It's it's need to make them understand. It's it's need to make them understand. It's it's it's it's an incredibly difficult

it's it's an incredibly difficult it's it's an incredibly difficult endeavor, if not impossible, for

endeavor, if not impossible, for endeavor, if not impossible, for companies of of your size. So yeah,

companies of of your size. So yeah, companies of of your size. So yeah, you're going to have to find a way to you're going to have to find a way to you're going to have to find a way to channel demand in some way, shape, or

channel demand in some way, shape, or channel demand in some way, shape, or form. Um, and so we can find that out

form. Um, and so we can find that out form. Um, and so we can find that out now if you want. Yeah. Uh, let me give

now if you want. Yeah. Uh, let me give now if you want. Yeah. Uh, let me give you a bit of a background of some of the

you a bit of a background of some of the you a bit of a background of some of the stuff we've been working on and what we stuff we've been working on and what we stuff we've been working on and what we think we've learned. So yeah, we have

think we've learned. So yeah, we have think we've learned. So yeah, we have stats and it's like you said, it's stats and it's like you said, it's stats and it's like you said, it's almost like let's assume that's like the

almost like let's assume that's like the almost like let's assume that's like the bare bones minimum like you're getting bare bones minimum like you're getting bare bones minimum like you're getting this as a service. It's like of course

this as a service. It's like of course this as a service. It's like of course we get our stats. All right, next. Um,

we get our stats. All right, next. Um, we get our stats. All right, next. Um, exactly. Of course you get the stats. exactly. Of course you get the stats. exactly. Of course you get the stats. There are more people looking for CRM,

There are more people looking for CRM, There are more people looking for CRM, but no one's actually created in my mind

but no one's actually created in my mind but no one's actually created in my mind a CRM product for affiliates. So like

a CRM product for affiliates. So like a CRM product for affiliates. So like what would a CRM be? Well, who are my

what would a CRM be? Well, who are my what would a CRM be? Well, who are my affiliate managers? What are my deals?

affiliate managers? What are my deals? affiliate managers? What are my deals? We actually have those two invoice. It's

We actually have those two invoice. It's We actually have those two invoice. It's like can I manage them? We actually have like can I manage them? We actually have like can I manage them? We actually have an invoice generator. So we have So

an invoice generator. So we have So an invoice generator. So we have So you're not that you're definitely not.

you're not that you're definitely not. you're not that you're definitely not. So it's a cut, but that's what is

So it's a cut, but that's what is So it's a cut, but that's what is interesting to me. CRM is a category

interesting to me. CRM is a category interesting to me. CRM is a category that is in demand. Now it's a big

that is in demand. Now it's a big that is in demand. Now it's a big category that's you belong into a sub

category that's you belong into a sub category that's you belong into a sub subcategory of that but there's demand

subcategory of that but there's demand subcategory of that but there's demand there people know what CRM is right

there people know what CRM is right there people know what CRM is right people do CRM on Google sheet Excel

people do CRM on Google sheet Excel people do CRM on Google sheet Excel paper they do it already so there is

paper they do it already so there is paper they do it already so there is something that they're already currently something that they're already currently something that they're already currently doing in order to manage their contacts

doing in order to manage their contacts doing in order to manage their contacts or whatever so you're not trying to like

or whatever so you're not trying to like or whatever so you're not trying to like make them do something they haven't done

make them do something they haven't done make them do something they haven't done before you're not trying to like do any

before you're not trying to like do any before you're not trying to like do any of that so that's already way way way

of that so that's already way way way of that so that's already way way way more interesting to me okay Um now so

more interesting to me okay Um now so more interesting to me okay Um now so that's the big that's the big category.

that's the big that's the big category. that's the big that's the big category. There might be a more specific category

There might be a more specific category There might be a more specific category than just CRM but yeah I would agree

than just CRM but yeah I would agree than just CRM but yeah I would agree that if you talk about invoicing if you

that if you talk about invoicing if you that if you talk about invoicing if you talk about uh uh managing deals uh and

talk about uh uh managing deals uh and talk about uh uh managing deals uh and then also some stats that's you know if

then also some stats that's you know if then also some stats that's you know if a dog if a if an animal has a long neck

a dog if a if an animal has a long neck a dog if a if an animal has a long neck and [ __ ] yellow with brown patches on

and [ __ ] yellow with brown patches on and [ __ ] yellow with brown patches on top you know it's a giraffe right? So

top you know it's a giraffe right? So top you know it's a giraffe right? So it's like what is the most clear

it's like what is the most clear it's like what is the most clear compelling in demand category that you

compelling in demand category that you compelling in demand category that you would belong to that you can place would belong to that you can place would belong to that you can place yourself in? I would argue from what you

yourself in? I would argue from what you yourself in? I would argue from what you just said yeah CRM seems like the

just said yeah CRM seems like the just said yeah CRM seems like the obvious one. Yeah. Now it's a big

obvious one. Yeah. Now it's a big obvious one. Yeah. Now it's a big category but yeah and a couple more

category but yeah and a couple more category but yeah and a couple more things. So another thing that people

things. So another thing that people things. So another thing that people want as affiliates is they want to be

want as affiliates is they want to be want as affiliates is they want to be very advanced with their analytics. They

very advanced with their analytics. They very advanced with their analytics. They want business intelligence but they also

want business intelligence but they also want business intelligence but they also don't know what it looks like. Um but

don't know what it looks like. Um but don't know what it looks like. Um but when they get it they also don't know

when they get it they also don't know when they get it they also don't know what to do with it. So we give them like

what to do with it. So we give them like what to do with it. So we give them like like really advanced charts and it's

like really advanced charts and it's like really advanced charts and it's kind of like there's insights inside of

kind of like there's insights inside of kind of like there's insights inside of that and depending on who the user is,

that and depending on who the user is, that and depending on who the user is, they're like, I know it's there, but they're like, I know it's there, but they're like, I know it's there, but they're not really spending time on it.

they're not really spending time on it. they're not really spending time on it. So they they want education. We've had a

So they they want education. We've had a So they they want education. We've had a lot of people saying, you know, I I feel

lot of people saying, you know, I I feel lot of people saying, you know, I I feel like I'm missing out. I feel like I I'm

like I'm missing out. I feel like I I'm like I'm missing out. I feel like I I'm this company over here and we're like 50

this company over here and we're like 50 this company over here and we're like 50 places behind the first company. I I

places behind the first company. I I places behind the first company. I I want everything in my arsenal to get

want everything in my arsenal to get want everything in my arsenal to get there, but you know, if we make it too

there, but you know, if we make it too there, but you know, if we make it too expensive, then it's not accessible. So

expensive, then it's not accessible. So expensive, then it's not accessible. So we think there's a demand for it, but we think there's a demand for it, but we think there's a demand for it, but the search demand is if I had to rank

the search demand is if I had to rank the search demand is if I had to rank this, it'd be CRM has the most searches,

this, it'd be CRM has the most searches, this, it'd be CRM has the most searches, even though it's not a lot. Then there's

even though it's not a lot. Then there's even though it's not a lot. Then there's people searching for business people searching for business people searching for business intelligence, but we're also me and my

intelligence, but we're also me and my intelligence, but we're also me and my competitors. We're kind of educating the

competitors. We're kind of educating the competitors. We're kind of educating the users in this space as a differentiator.

users in this space as a differentiator. users in this space as a differentiator. And then getting the data is kind of

And then getting the data is kind of And then getting the data is kind of like it's almost like an afterthought.

like it's almost like an afterthought. like it's almost like an afterthought. Like of course you get your data. If you

Like of course you get your data. If you Like of course you get your data. If you need business intelligence, you expect

need business intelligence, you expect need business intelligence, you expect to get your data. Like you're already

to get your data. Like you're already to get your data. Like you're already past that point. Yeah. What what's

past that point. Yeah. What what's past that point. Yeah. What what's what's like what triggers me or what I'm

what's like what triggers me or what I'm what's like what triggers me or what I'm I'm thinking about as soon as you said

I'm thinking about as soon as you said I'm thinking about as soon as you said that like people want they tell us they

that like people want they tell us they that like people want they tell us they want like the complex data the

want like the complex data the want like the complex data the visualization the whatever but then they

visualization the whatever but then they visualization the whatever but then they don't [ __ ] know what to do with it. don't [ __ ] know what to do with it. don't [ __ ] know what to do with it. It's like they like the idea of it.

It's like they like the idea of it. It's like they like the idea of it. Yeah. They don't like the actual thing.

Yeah. They don't like the actual thing. Yeah. They don't like the actual thing. So yeah, of course when you ask them

So yeah, of course when you ask them So yeah, of course when you ask them would you like more data? Oh yeah, sure.

would you like more data? Oh yeah, sure. would you like more data? Oh yeah, sure. But like so so then it goes back to the

But like so so then it goes back to the But like so so then it goes back to the struggle. So let's back the category for

struggle. So let's back the category for struggle. So let's back the category for a second. Yeah. the the reason why

a second. Yeah. the the reason why a second. Yeah. the the reason why niching down and the reason why it's so

niching down and the reason why it's so niching down and the reason why it's so important to like really have a segment

important to like really have a segment important to like really have a segment that is very specific

that is very specific that is very specific um is is that the more you solve a

um is is that the more you solve a um is is that the more you solve a painful painful painful problem that a specific group of people

problem that a specific group of people problem that a specific group of people have that alternatives do not the more

have that alternatives do not the more have that alternatives do not the more likely you are to gain marketer to gain

likely you are to gain marketer to gain likely you are to gain marketer to gain customer because you're giving them a

customer because you're giving them a customer because you're giving them a very strong compelling reason to pick

very strong compelling reason to pick very strong compelling reason to pick you over a big CRM that is well known

you over a big CRM that is well known you over a big CRM that is well known over just using Google sheets. So the

over just using Google sheets. So the over just using Google sheets. So the pull the pull the pull the attraction the grav like the the the the

attraction the grav like the the the the attraction the grav like the the the the uh the gravitational force that comes to

uh the gravitational force that comes to uh the gravitational force that comes to you is stronger when you are able to

you is stronger when you are able to you is stronger when you are able to identify big problems that are

identify big problems that are identify big problems that are completely underlooked and over

completely underlooked and over completely underlooked and over undersolved by any alternatives. So the

undersolved by any alternatives. So the undersolved by any alternatives. So the fact that you already have like a subset

fact that you already have like a subset fact that you already have like a subset of people like affiliate marketers is

of people like affiliate marketers is of people like affiliate marketers is helpful because then we can think about

helpful because then we can think about helpful because then we can think about okay

okay okay why why are they struggling to get the

why why are they struggling to get the why why are they struggling to get the job done and to me would be like become

job done and to me would be like become job done and to me would be like become number one or something along those line

number one or something along those line number one or something along those line like right to grow to to grow their

like right to grow to to grow their like right to grow to to grow their ranking right so what's what's in the

ranking right so what's what's in the ranking right so what's what's in the way right what's getting in the way yeah

way right what's getting in the way yeah way right what's getting in the way yeah and actually I I think there's something

and actually I I think there's something and actually I I think there's something I'm asking you oh what's getting in the

I'm asking you oh what's getting in the I'm asking you oh what's getting in the way of that well I'm gonna

way of that well I'm gonna way of that well I'm gonna Yeah, before they use you, right? Before

Yeah, before they use you, right? Before Yeah, before they use you, right? Before like before before they become a power

like before before they become a power like before before they become a power user and they have everything they need,

user and they have everything they need, user and they have everything they need, whatever. But like let's forget about whatever. But like let's forget about whatever. But like let's forget about that. Let's think about your best that. Let's think about your best that. Let's think about your best customer like the ones that you can

customer like the ones that you can customer like the ones that you can imagine in your head like the ones that imagine in your head like the ones that imagine in your head like the ones that are spending loads and happy whatever

are spending loads and happy whatever are spending loads and happy whatever before they wanted to do this. They

before they wanted to do this. They before they wanted to do this. They wanted to reach number one spot just to

wanted to reach number one spot just to wanted to reach number one spot just to summarize what prevented them from going

summarize what prevented them from going summarize what prevented them from going there. Yeah, it's a good question. I

there. Yeah, it's a good question. I there. Yeah, it's a good question. I think one of the answers and it's kind

think one of the answers and it's kind think one of the answers and it's kind of like why did we create this app in

of like why did we create this app in of like why did we create this app in the first place? I think it has to do

the first place? I think it has to do the first place? I think it has to do with my experience of identifying this

with my experience of identifying this with my experience of identifying this concept of revenue leak. Like how do you

concept of revenue leak. Like how do you concept of revenue leak. Like how do you lose money as an affiliate? So it's

lose money as an affiliate? So it's lose money as an affiliate? So it's either stopping losing money or knowing

either stopping losing money or knowing either stopping losing money or knowing that you can find it or the opposite

that you can find it or the opposite that you can find it or the opposite which is optimizing. Like you have a

which is optimizing. Like you have a which is optimizing. Like you have a campaign that's doing amazing, you send

campaign that's doing amazing, you send campaign that's doing amazing, you send more traffic to it and you're going to more traffic to it and you're going to more traffic to it and you're going to get more money obvious. Well, the same

get more money obvious. Well, the same get more money obvious. Well, the same happens in opposite when you've got a

happens in opposite when you've got a happens in opposite when you've got a campaign that was doing well but

campaign that was doing well but campaign that was doing well but actually is trending off and if you're actually is trending off and if you're actually is trending off and if you're going to send more traffic to it, you're going to send more traffic to it, you're going to send more traffic to it, you're wasting money. So examples of how you

wasting money. So examples of how you wasting money. So examples of how you can lose money in affiliate marketing is

can lose money in affiliate marketing is can lose money in affiliate marketing is if a program changes the tracking link

if a program changes the tracking link if a program changes the tracking link tech and you don't know this and it and

tech and you don't know this and it and tech and you don't know this and it and it just getting zeros sometimes in in a

it just getting zeros sometimes in in a it just getting zeros sometimes in in a table of data you can't see this even if

table of data you can't see this even if table of data you can't see this even if you use our app it's just it's not

you use our app it's just it's not you use our app it's just it's not visible. So we need tools that kind of

visible. So we need tools that kind of visible. So we need tools that kind of are done for you as a service and do

are done for you as a service and do are done for you as a service and do that. And so to give you one more weird

that. And so to give you one more weird that. And so to give you one more weird example of something we might have

example of something we might have example of something we might have tapped into and this is literally a week

tapped into and this is literally a week tapped into and this is literally a week ago. So I did a poll all over

ago. So I did a poll all over ago. So I did a poll all over communities plus my LinkedIn. I said

communities plus my LinkedIn. I said communities plus my LinkedIn. I said this is a thing in especially in the this is a thing in especially in the this is a thing in especially in the gambling space. There's a concept called

gambling space. There's a concept called gambling space. There's a concept called shaving which is affiliate programs that

shaving which is affiliate programs that shaving which is affiliate programs that kind of find clever ways either kind of find clever ways either kind of find clever ways either intentional or accidental of deleting

intentional or accidental of deleting intentional or accidental of deleting commissions and there's a lot of ways it

commissions and there's a lot of ways it commissions and there's a lot of ways it can happen. So I did the poll and I had

can happen. So I did the poll and I had can happen. So I did the poll and I had probably like something like 150

probably like something like 150 probably like something like 150 affiliates like almost all of them are

affiliates like almost all of them are affiliates like almost all of them are saying yes. They're not saying no this

saying yes. They're not saying no this saying yes. They're not saying no this isn't happening. I'm like how do you

isn't happening. I'm like how do you isn't happening. I'm like how do you think you've you've experienced shaping

think you've you've experienced shaping think you've you've experienced shaping at least once and it's just like 100%

at least once and it's just like 100% at least once and it's just like 100% across the board. So it's it's almost

across the board. So it's it's almost across the board. So it's it's almost like a triggered point. Yeah. We built a

like a triggered point. Yeah. We built a like a triggered point. Yeah. We built a product that's actually using our app

product that's actually using our app product that's actually using our app that exports the data into Excel sheet

that exports the data into Excel sheet that exports the data into Excel sheet and we're like these are all the changes

and we're like these are all the changes and we're like these are all the changes that have happened before and after. So

that have happened before and after. So that have happened before and after. So we just showed this to a very big

we just showed this to a very big we just showed this to a very big company that actually does their stats company that actually does their stats company that actually does their stats in-house. They're like we hadn't even

in-house. They're like we hadn't even in-house. They're like we hadn't even thought of this idea and we want this.

thought of this idea and we want this. thought of this idea and we want this. So to give you another story, the the

So to give you another story, the the So to give you another story, the the guy on our team, Joe Hatch, who actually

guy on our team, Joe Hatch, who actually guy on our team, Joe Hatch, who actually was working on this, he actually did

was working on this, he actually did was working on this, he actually did this for one of our customers and he

this for one of our customers and he this for one of our customers and he found 150,000 euros in lost revenue that

found 150,000 euros in lost revenue that found 150,000 euros in lost revenue that he recovered for the company. So that's

he recovered for the company. So that's he recovered for the company. So that's a substantial amount of money. Okay, so

a substantial amount of money. Okay, so a substantial amount of money. Okay, so that's very interesting, right? So So

that's very interesting, right? So So that's very interesting, right? So So again, this is why it's important to

again, this is why it's important to again, this is why it's important to have like when you ask yourself or

have like when you ask yourself or have like when you ask yourself or others good questions, you know, you get

others good questions, you know, you get others good questions, you know, you get good answers and then you get insight

good answers and then you get insight good answers and then you get insight and those insight can be super useful.

and those insight can be super useful. and those insight can be super useful. So struggle is avoid losing, we could

So struggle is avoid losing, we could So struggle is avoid losing, we could phrase it like avoid losing money you

phrase it like avoid losing money you phrase it like avoid losing money you don't know you're losing in a sense, don't know you're losing in a sense, don't know you're losing in a sense, right? It's like um it's like this idea

right? It's like um it's like this idea right? It's like um it's like this idea of control. This idea of of feeling like

of control. This idea of of feeling like of control. This idea of of feeling like you you've got everything Yeah. under

you you've got everything Yeah. under you you've got everything Yeah. under control, you know what's going on.

control, you know what's going on. control, you know what's going on. You're not losing any money. Like loss

You're not losing any money. Like loss You're not losing any money. Like loss aversion is more much stronger than uh

aversion is more much stronger than uh aversion is more much stronger than uh than the opposite, right? The fear of than the opposite, right? The fear of than the opposite, right? The fear of losing money is a strong incentive. So

losing money is a strong incentive. So losing money is a strong incentive. So then what straight away what I was

then what straight away what I was then what straight away what I was thinking about is okay CRM we talked

thinking about is okay CRM we talked thinking about is okay CRM we talked about that as a category but are

about that as a category but are about that as a category but are there

there there uh companies that do that for other

uh companies that do that for other uh companies that do that for other industries right there is right like

industries right there is right like industries right there is right like there is um any uh like any s company

there is um any uh like any s company there is um any uh like any s company you have like the charge B or whatever

you have like the charge B or whatever you have like the charge B or whatever where they they the delinquent churn or

where they they the delinquent churn or where they they the delinquent churn or whatever it's called like right stuff

whatever it's called like right stuff whatever it's called like right stuff like that so it's like it's like a they

like that so it's like it's like a they like that so it's like it's like a they identify customers to a credit card has

identify customers to a credit card has identify customers to a credit card has failed and then they would recharge

failed and then they would recharge failed and then they would recharge them, you know, they would message them

them, you know, they would message them them, you know, they would message them so they recover potentially lost

so they recover potentially lost so they recover potentially lost revenue. Uh the reason why I mentioned

revenue. Uh the reason why I mentioned revenue. Uh the reason why I mentioned that is because if it already exists

that is because if it already exists that is because if it already exists somewhere else, then there must be

somewhere else, then there must be somewhere else, then there must be something that they're doing, right?

something that they're doing, right? something that they're doing, right? Okay. Are they able to capture demand

Okay. Are they able to capture demand Okay. Are they able to capture demand for that or are they using a Trojan

for that or are they using a Trojan for that or are they using a Trojan horse to do it? Well, Stripe has it.

horse to do it? Well, Stripe has it. horse to do it? Well, Stripe has it. Stripe has a revenue recovering service,

Stripe has a revenue recovering service, Stripe has a revenue recovering service, but Stripe is much bigger, right? So you

but Stripe is much bigger, right? So you but Stripe is much bigger, right? So you can see how I I mean again I'm just

can see how I I mean again I'm just can see how I I mean again I'm just shooting I'm just guessing but it feels

shooting I'm just guessing but it feels shooting I'm just guessing but it feels like you could

like you could like you could use the CRM part because the highest

use the CRM part because the highest use the CRM part because the highest demand as the as the core category but

demand as the as the core category but demand as the as the core category but you can say we are the only um CRM for

you can say we are the only um CRM for you can say we are the only um CRM for affiliates that

affiliates that affiliates that identify a loss revenue and let you know

identify a loss revenue and let you know identify a loss revenue and let you know about it. Yeah. Blah blah. I I you know

about it. Yeah. Blah blah. I I you know about it. Yeah. Blah blah. I I you know I I think there's something there right

I I think there's something there right I I think there's something there right so it's like it's a CRM so people

so it's like it's a CRM so people so it's like it's a CRM so people understand what it is right they can

understand what it is right they can understand what it is right they can visualize it but it also has this it's

visualize it but it also has this it's visualize it but it also has this it's it's again it's the Trojan horse it's

it's again it's the Trojan horse it's it's again it's the Trojan horse it's what they think they need and then what what they think they need and then what what they think they need and then what they actually need because if as the

they actually need because if as the they actually need because if as the the category of revenue let me see yeah

the category of revenue let me see yeah the category of revenue let me see yeah I'm just checking my Stripe account I

I'm just checking my Stripe account I I'm just checking my Stripe account I just want to see how they talk about it

just want to see how they talk about it just want to see how they talk about it again that's something I do all the time

again that's something I do all the time again that's something I do all the time right just to reverse engineer our

right just to reverse engineer our right just to reverse engineer our conversation I'm not trying to be too

conversation I'm not trying to be too conversation I'm not trying to be too smart. I'm not trying to be fancy

smart. I'm not trying to be fancy smart. I'm not trying to be fancy reinvent the wheel. I'm just trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm just trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm just trying to be extremely pragmatic. What are the

be extremely pragmatic. What are the be extremely pragmatic. What are the things? Yeah. Right. I I study a lot of

things? Yeah. Right. I I study a lot of things? Yeah. Right. I I study a lot of those SAS companies as well like uh uh

those SAS companies as well like uh uh those SAS companies as well like uh uh ChargeB, Stripe, uh Profit Well that was

ChargeB, Stripe, uh Profit Well that was ChargeB, Stripe, uh Profit Well that was acquired by Paddle like they give you

acquired by Paddle like they give you acquired by Paddle like they give you your analytics for free and then they

your analytics for free and then they your analytics for free and then they upsell you with consulting.

upsell you with consulting. upsell you with consulting. So you see it's I mean that that what

So you see it's I mean that that what So you see it's I mean that that what what we talked about there the the the

what we talked about there the the the what we talked about there the the the Trojan horse. You can see it everywhere.

Trojan horse. You can see it everywhere. Trojan horse. You can see it everywhere. It's just you you start with what people

It's just you you start with what people It's just you you start with what people think they need or and it start about

think they need or and it start about think they need or and it start about mazas and then you give them what they

mazas and then you give them what they mazas and then you give them what they actually need which is like deeper

actually need which is like deeper actually need which is like deeper analysis of a pricing model or whatever.

analysis of a pricing model or whatever. analysis of a pricing model or whatever. Um

Um Um so actually you said uh profit well.

so actually you said uh profit well. so actually you said uh profit well. Yeah. Uh what's the name of the

Yeah. Uh what's the name of the Yeah. Uh what's the name of the software? Um which one? Uh the one that

software? Um which one? Uh the one that software? Um which one? Uh the one that the the the revenue recovering one.

the the the revenue recovering one. the the the revenue recovering one. What's the charge B? Uh, Charge Feast,

What's the charge B? Uh, Charge Feast, What's the charge B? Uh, Charge Feast, Stripe does it. Um, there's a lot of

Stripe does it. Um, there's a lot of Stripe does it. Um, there's a lot of other analytics uh, tools for SAS like

other analytics uh, tools for SAS like other analytics uh, tools for SAS like um, I'm mixing up all the names like

um, I'm mixing up all the names like um, I'm mixing up all the names like Capchase does it. U, Founder Path, they

Capchase does it. U, Founder Path, they Capchase does it. U, Founder Path, they give you analytics for free and then

give you analytics for free and then give you analytics for free and then they basically upsell you a service.

they basically upsell you a service. they basically upsell you a service. Yeah. So like uh, Chargeb their

Yeah. So like uh, Chargeb their Yeah. So like uh, Chargeb their particular feature would say recover

particular feature would say recover particular feature would say recover failed payments and increase customer failed payments and increase customer failed payments and increase customer lifetime value. Now it's not exactly

lifetime value. Now it's not exactly lifetime value. Now it's not exactly what you say what you do. they offer

what you say what you do. they offer what you say what you do. they offer more

more more but you know they call it their tool

but you know they call it their tool but you know they call it their tool they call it a revenue growth management

they call it a revenue growth management they call it a revenue growth management so clearly that's struggling with that so clearly that's struggling with that so clearly that's struggling with that category right it's just becoming a bit

category right it's just becoming a bit category right it's just becoming a bit fuzzy too big so anyway go back to you

fuzzy too big so anyway go back to you fuzzy too big so anyway go back to you like yeah if the core ignore struggle is

like yeah if the core ignore struggle is like yeah if the core ignore struggle is the fact that I I want to make sure I

the fact that I I want to make sure I the fact that I I want to make sure I get all my money worth of all my work

get all my money worth of all my work get all my money worth of all my work that I don't I don't get [ __ ] over by

that I don't I don't get [ __ ] over by that I don't I don't get [ __ ] over by affiliate programs or whatever through affiliate programs or whatever through affiliate programs or whatever through shaving and whatever then um then that's

shaving and whatever then um then that's shaving and whatever then um then that's a very interesting thing but again it's

a very interesting thing but again it's a very interesting thing but again it's not something they're aware of not something they're aware of not something they're aware of necessarily right so so then it's like

necessarily right so so then it's like necessarily right so so then it's like okay if they're not aware of that that's

okay if they're not aware of that that's okay if they're not aware of that that's what we can lead with once they are in

what we can lead with once they are in what we can lead with once they are in but before they are in what do we lead

but before they are in what do we lead but before they are in what do we lead with what is the thing that is the most

with what is the thing that is the most with what is the thing that is the most in demand

in demand in demand um and yeah CRM is the one that we've

um and yeah CRM is the one that we've um and yeah CRM is the one that we've doubled down on that we talked about for

doubled down on that we talked about for doubled down on that we talked about for the last few minutes but there might be

the last few minutes but there might be the last few minutes but there might be something else right so it's like based

something else right so it's like based something else right so it's like based on all the features you have based on

on all the features you have based on on all the features you have based on all the things you

all the things you all the things you What is the best way to

What is the best way to What is the best way to categorize that, right? Yeah. What is

categorize that, right? Yeah. What is categorize that, right? Yeah. What is the best way to categorize what you do?

the best way to categorize what you do? the best way to categorize what you do? Yeah. I think CRM could be the home like

Yeah. I think CRM could be the home like Yeah. I think CRM could be the home like the the thing that people can kind of

the the thing that people can kind of the the thing that people can kind of like when they hear an affiliate serum,

like when they hear an affiliate serum, like when they hear an affiliate serum, they like I think I've got an idea of they like I think I've got an idea of they like I think I've got an idea of what it is. And I think they're more what it is. And I think they're more what it is. And I think they're more curious to to walk in the door rather

curious to to walk in the door rather curious to to walk in the door rather than affiliate stats aggregation. That's

than affiliate stats aggregation. That's than affiliate stats aggregation. That's a mouthful. No one's searching for it.

a mouthful. No one's searching for it. a mouthful. No one's searching for it. And the ones that are searching for it,

And the ones that are searching for it, And the ones that are searching for it, we're still going to rank for that

we're still going to rank for that we're still going to rank for that keyword. That's not a problem. Exactly.

keyword. That's not a problem. Exactly. keyword. That's not a problem. Exactly. But it's not a good position, I think.

But it's not a good position, I think. But it's not a good position, I think. Yeah. It's not the beach head. It's not Yeah. It's not the beach head. It's not Yeah. It's not the beach head. It's not the core that you're leaning with. Um

the core that you're leaning with. Um the core that you're leaning with. Um like if you don't have the right

like if you don't have the right like if you don't have the right competitors, you're in trouble as well, competitors, you're in trouble as well, competitors, you're in trouble as well, right? So I would almost

right? So I would almost right? So I would almost think is there no CRM just for

think is there no CRM just for think is there no CRM just for affiliates ever at all like or I can't

affiliates ever at all like or I can't affiliates ever at all like or I can't find them. Okay. Like the the ones that

find them. Okay. Like the the ones that find them. Okay. Like the the ones that actually have them are the very big actually have them are the very big actually have them are the very big companies like that have actually built companies like that have actually built companies like that have actually built this in-house and we've seen their their

this in-house and we've seen their their this in-house and we've seen their their platforms. They show it to us. It's like

platforms. They show it to us. It's like platforms. They show it to us. It's like this giant backend. It's got all the

this giant backend. It's got all the this giant backend. It's got all the brands, all the products, all the all

brands, all the products, all the all brands, all the products, all the all their tracking links, all their deals,

their tracking links, all their deals, their tracking links, all their deals, all the the user management. And we

all the the user management. And we all the the user management. And we actually are kind of building out um

actually are kind of building out um actually are kind of building out um like a foundation for this. So people

like a foundation for this. So people like a foundation for this. So people can have this without having to invest

can have this without having to invest can have this without having to invest like So that's good. 500,000.

like So that's good. 500,000. like So that's good. 500,000. So that means that means that big

So that means that means that big So that means that means that big companies that have this problem at a at

companies that have this problem at a at companies that have this problem at a at a at a that feel this problem way more

a at a that feel this problem way more a at a that feel this problem way more than a smaller affiliates, yes, have

than a smaller affiliates, yes, have than a smaller affiliates, yes, have already tried to solve it. Right. So,

already tried to solve it. Right. So, already tried to solve it. Right. So, that's a good indication that something that's a good indication that something that's a good indication that something is going on. Uh, if I search for like

is going on. Uh, if I search for like is going on. Uh, if I search for like CRM for affiliates, like a an actual

CRM for affiliates, like a an actual CRM for affiliates, like a an actual direct quote, you do have articles

direct quote, you do have articles direct quote, you do have articles talking about what is the best CRM for

talking about what is the best CRM for talking about what is the best CRM for affiliate marketing, but they basically

affiliate marketing, but they basically affiliate marketing, but they basically give you normal CRM like Pipe Drive,

give you normal CRM like Pipe Drive, give you normal CRM like Pipe Drive, Zoho, whatever. So, again, that's

Zoho, whatever. So, again, that's Zoho, whatever. So, again, that's interesting. That means you might have

interesting. That means you might have interesting. That means you might have identified a subgroup, a niche, a

identified a subgroup, a niche, a identified a subgroup, a niche, a segment, or whatever you want to call it segment, or whatever you want to call it segment, or whatever you want to call it that have problems that are not solved

that have problems that are not solved that have problems that are not solved by any of those. Meaning like if you go

by any of those. Meaning like if you go by any of those. Meaning like if you go through pipe drive, it's not going to through pipe drive, it's not going to through pipe drive, it's not going to tell you this is how much you've lost tell you this is how much you've lost tell you this is how much you've lost through shaving. So this is what this is

through shaving. So this is what this is through shaving. So this is what this is textbook definition of unique textbook definition of unique textbook definition of unique positioning. You're able to say this is

positioning. You're able to say this is positioning. You're able to say this is a this is an ignore struggle meaning

a this is an ignore struggle meaning a this is an ignore struggle meaning it's a it's a painful thing that

it's a it's a painful thing that it's a it's a painful thing that affiliate marketers are struggling with

affiliate marketers are struggling with affiliate marketers are struggling with that others are not solving and and

that others are not solving and and that others are not solving and and that's their foundation then you know that's their foundation then you know that's their foundation then you know that you can build on. Uh quick

that you can build on. Uh quick that you can build on. Uh quick question. If you were in my position,

question. If you were in my position, question. If you were in my position, would you offer a premium service to at

would you offer a premium service to at would you offer a premium service to at least make it easy for people to walk in

least make it easy for people to walk in least make it easy for people to walk in the door?

the door? the door? I don't know. Uh it depends on so many

I don't know. Uh it depends on so many I don't know. Uh it depends on so many things. Again, it's

things. Again, it's things. Again, it's like I would tend to say yes because

like I would tend to say yes because like I would tend to say yes because affiliate marketers tend to be very like

affiliate marketers tend to be very like affiliate marketers tend to be very like techsavvy and and and they want to see

techsavvy and and and they want to see techsavvy and and and they want to see things for themselves and play with them

things for themselves and play with them things for themselves and play with them and and see how it works, right? So, but

and and see how it works, right? So, but and and see how it works, right? So, but how to do that? I'm not a specialist in

how to do that? I'm not a specialist in how to do that? I'm not a specialist in uh productled growth or whatever uh the

uh productled growth or whatever uh the uh productled growth or whatever uh the fancy terms are being used right now.

fancy terms are being used right now. fancy terms are being used right now. Yeah, PLC.

Yeah, PLC. Yeah, PLC. Yeah, whatever.

Yeah, whatever. Yeah, whatever. Uh, potato potato, right? It's all the

Uh, potato potato, right? It's all the Uh, potato potato, right? It's all the same thing. Just reinventing the wheel same thing. Just reinventing the wheel same thing. Just reinventing the wheel every few years. But yeah, if you go

every few years. But yeah, if you go every few years. But yeah, if you go back to the core of it, affiliate

back to the core of it, affiliate back to the core of it, affiliate marketers are more techsavvy than the marketers are more techsavvy than the marketers are more techsavvy than the average. They probably are difficult to

average. They probably are difficult to average. They probably are difficult to [ __ ] right? Are like very prone to

[ __ ] right? Are like very prone to [ __ ] right? Are like very prone to like they can spot a

like they can spot a like they can spot a shady deal for a long time away. So

shady deal for a long time away. So shady deal for a long time away. So yeah, I mean to me it would be obvious

yeah, I mean to me it would be obvious yeah, I mean to me it would be obvious to I want to see how it looks like, how

to I want to see how it looks like, how to I want to see how it looks like, how it feels and then I can pay for it.

it feels and then I can pay for it. it feels and then I can pay for it. So yeah, sounds like a good plan to

So yeah, sounds like a good plan to So yeah, sounds like a good plan to start with. Amazing. So last uh

start with. Amazing. So last uh start with. Amazing. So last uh question. What do you see of the future question. What do you see of the future question. What do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects

of affiliate marketing as it intersects of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence?

with business intelligence? with business intelligence? Well, we I think we talked about it.

Well, we I think we talked about it. Well, we I think we talked about it. Yeah. You know, it's

Yeah. You know, it's Yeah. You know, it's like the future. I mean I'm never I'm

like the future. I mean I'm never I'm like the future. I mean I'm never I'm never really keen in those trendy what's

never really keen in those trendy what's never really keen in those trendy what's the future X Y and Zed as you can tell I

the future X Y and Zed as you can tell I the future X Y and Zed as you can tell I I I try to look at the past more which

I I try to look at the past more which I I try to look at the past more which are like with primatism right what are

are like with primatism right what are are like with primatism right what are the things that have happened and how

the things that have happened and how the things that have happened and how can we lean on things that are already can we lean on things that are already can we lean on things that are already there to to move forward so I'm not very

there to to move forward so I'm not very there to to move forward so I'm not very good at predictions

good at predictions good at predictions um all I can say is yeah like if you

um all I can say is yeah like if you um all I can say is yeah like if you don't have strong foundations if you don't have strong foundations if you don't have strong foundations if you don't do the inside foraging part if you

don't do the inside foraging part if you don't do the inside foraging part if you don't do the unique positioning

don't do the unique positioning don't do the unique positioning particular you're not going to be able

particular you're not going to be able particular you're not going to be able to face the future. Uh but we don't

to face the future. Uh but we don't to face the future. Uh but we don't really know what's going to happen next.

really know what's going to happen next. really know what's going to happen next. Yeah, I think the you know what you you

Yeah, I think the you know what you you Yeah, I think the you know what you you what you said in practice and preached

what you said in practice and preached what you said in practice and preached is uh try stuff. I mean that's that's

is uh try stuff. I mean that's that's is uh try stuff. I mean that's that's the heart of conversion rate the heart of conversion rate the heart of conversion rate optimization right there.

optimization right there. optimization right there. Yeah, that's that's one thing. Yeah.

Yeah, that's that's one thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Louie, uh thank you so much for

Yeah. Uh Louie, uh thank you so much for Yeah. Uh Louie, uh thank you so much for doing this. Want to pass it back to you.

doing this. Want to pass it back to you. doing this. Want to pass it back to you. How can people get a hold of you? And of

How can people get a hold of you? And of How can people get a hold of you? And of course you can tell us the best way of

course you can tell us the best way of course you can tell us the best way of buying your book. Yeah. Thanks. Uh just

buying your book. Yeah. Thanks. Uh just buying your book. Yeah. Thanks. Uh just just Google, search wherever, stand the

just Google, search wherever, stand the just Google, search wherever, stand the [ __ ] out and you'll find it. Um if you

[ __ ] out and you'll find it. Um if you [ __ ] out and you'll find it. Um if you want the basic stuff, you can go to

want the basic stuff, you can go to want the basic stuff, you can go to Amazon, you can buy the paperback, uh

Amazon, you can buy the paperback, uh Amazon, you can buy the paperback, uh hard cover, Kindle if you want to. I'm

hard cover, Kindle if you want to. I'm hard cover, Kindle if you want to. I'm happy with that. Uh if you're extra

happy with that. Uh if you're extra happy with that. Uh if you're extra generous and if you feel like uh that

generous and if you feel like uh that generous and if you feel like uh that conversation was helpful, you can also

conversation was helpful, you can also conversation was helpful, you can also get it on my website where there's get it on my website where there's get it on my website where there's things that you can't get anywhere else.

things that you can't get anywhere else. things that you can't get anywhere else. Um it's obviously more expensive, but

Um it's obviously more expensive, but Um it's obviously more expensive, but it's also that support the business. So,

it's also that support the business. So, it's also that support the business. So, um, if it's easier through Amazon, you

um, if it's easier through Amazon, you um, if it's easier through Amazon, you can buy it on Amazon. Okay. Awesome.

can buy it on Amazon. Okay. Awesome. can buy it on Amazon. Okay. Awesome. Thanks a lot. You're very welcome.

Thank you for tuning in to the Thank you for tuning in to the AffiliateBI podcast. I'd like to take

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