Fractional CFO for affiliates with Rowan Ellis

when you the founder or the person when you the founder or the person running the business you need a running the business you need a running the business you need a challenge you need someone to be challenge you need someone to be challenge you need someone to be challenging you not challenging how

challenging you not challenging how challenging you not challenging how you're doing things but almost you're doing things but almost you're doing things but almost challenging your business model as well

challenging your business model as well challenging your business model as well which is quite strategic from a which is quite strategic from a which is quite strategic from a fractional CFO perspective that's one of

fractional CFO perspective that's one of fractional CFO perspective that's one of the things you deliver you can look at

the things you deliver you can look at the things you deliver you can look at us I can look at a set of numbers and

us I can look at a set of numbers and us I can look at a set of numbers and see something quite different to you

see something quite different to you see something quite different to you I'll immediately focus in on the

I'll immediately focus in on the I'll immediately focus in on the different types of revenue streams the different types of revenue streams the different types of revenue streams the gross margins on each stream I'll look

gross margins on each stream I'll look gross margins on each stream I'll look at things from a trend perspective

at things from a trend perspective at things from a trend perspective whether things are profitable or not

whether things are profitable or not whether things are profitable or not it's amazing and not really in the

it's amazing and not really in the it's amazing and not really in the affiliate space but in how many

affiliate space but in how many affiliate space but in how many Industries where businesses are big

Industries where businesses are big Industries where businesses are big they're actually running

they're actually running they're actually running a stream of business that's loss making

a stream of business that's loss making a stream of business that's loss making so big run so quickly one of the if you

so big run so quickly one of the if you so big run so quickly one of the if you narrowed out and called out a p&l for

narrowed out and called out a p&l for narrowed out and called out a p&l for that particular vertical of their

that particular vertical of their that particular vertical of their business it's loss making and if you

business it's loss making and if you business it's loss making and if you don't set your numbers out up to see

don't set your numbers out up to see don't set your numbers out up to see that you'll carry on doing it and

that you'll carry on doing it and that you'll carry on doing it and putting money in the wrong

putting money in the wrong putting money in the wrong place I'm John Wright and you're

place I'm John Wright and you're place I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

podcast brought to you by podcast brought to you by [Music]

[Music] [Music] sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast

sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast sta welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Rowan Ellis

today we're chatting with Rowan Ellis today we're chatting with Rowan Ellis who is the co-founder of xaru and it

who is the co-founder of xaru and it who is the co-founder of xaru and it does fractional CFO focused on business

does fractional CFO focused on business does fractional CFO focused on business transformation through m&a back office

transformation through m&a back office transformation through m&a back office transformation risk management and I

transformation risk management and I transformation risk management and I think Rowan can share a couple more

think Rowan can share a couple more think Rowan can share a couple more things he does as well Rowan welcome to

things he does as well Rowan welcome to things he does as well Rowan welcome to the show thanks so much John good to see

the show thanks so much John good to see the show thanks so much John good to see you always great chat chatting with you

you always great chat chatting with you you always great chat chatting with you we' had quite a few chats over the last

we' had quite a few chats over the last we' had quite a few chats over the last few months I feel like I'm being I feel

few months I feel like I'm being I feel few months I feel like I'm being I feel like I'm being drived over to your side

like I'm being drived over to your side like I'm being drived over to your side of the business where as a startup who's

of the business where as a startup who's of the business where as a startup who's got investors they're like we want clean

got investors they're like we want clean got investors they're like we want clean books clean everything and so I think

books clean everything and so I think books clean everything and so I think that's how we started the chatting it is

that's how we started the chatting it is that's how we started the chatting it is yeah it is John hard do you want me to

yeah it is John hard do you want me to yeah it is John hard do you want me to just give you a little bit of or give a

just give you a little bit of or give a just give you a little bit of or give a bit of background on on us and Exar and

bit of background on on us and Exar and bit of background on on us and Exar and yeah what we do please share that no

yeah what we do please share that no yeah what we do please share that no problem so we are a really small con

problem so we are a really small con problem so we are a really small con consultancy we set up a few years ago we

consultancy we set up a few years ago we consultancy we set up a few years ago we saw a gap in the market whereby you have

saw a gap in the market whereby you have saw a gap in the market whereby you have small startups probably businesses that

small startups probably businesses that small startups probably businesses that don't have the biggest cash flows and

don't have the biggest cash flows and don't have the biggest cash flows and they're looking to put processes in

they're looking to put processes in they're looking to put processes in place raise money do the right thing but

place raise money do the right thing but place raise money do the right thing but they can't afford big consultancies and

they can't afford big consultancies and they can't afford big consultancies and big consultancy costs so we looked at

big consultancy costs so we looked at big consultancy costs so we looked at really what the problem statement was

really what the problem statement was really what the problem statement was and we found that it was resource it was

and we found that it was resource it was and we found that it was resource it was process and to to a certain extent it

process and to to a certain extent it process and to to a certain extent it was it was timing and cost and we looked

was it was timing and cost and we looked was it was timing and cost and we looked at that problem statement put it all

at that problem statement put it all at that problem statement put it all together and popped up popped out a

together and popped up popped out a together and popped up popped out a consultancy that offers a number of

consultancy that offers a number of consultancy that offers a number of those services in various models and

those services in various models and those services in various models and then just to go a little bit deeper into

then just to go a little bit deeper into then just to go a little bit deeper into it like something that I've only

it like something that I've only it like something that I've only experienced in the past one or two years

experienced in the past one or two years experienced in the past one or two years is this concept of fractional CFO and I

is this concept of fractional CFO and I is this concept of fractional CFO and I was like oh there's fractional CMOS and

was like oh there's fractional CMOS and was like oh there's fractional CMOS and it's like this concept of fractional SE

it's like this concept of fractional SE it's like this concept of fractional SE to just exploded postco where a lot of

to just exploded postco where a lot of to just exploded postco where a lot of people said hey I can become a

people said hey I can become a people said hey I can become a consultant and you're actually

consultant and you're actually consultant and you're actually delivering really good value without

delivering really good value without delivering really good value without having to like you said have to hire a

having to like you said have to hire a having to like you said have to hire a CFO full-time so do you think Affiliates

CFO full-time so do you think Affiliates CFO full-time so do you think Affiliates could benefit from just basically saying

could benefit from just basically saying could benefit from just basically saying okay we need to organize our books we

okay we need to organize our books we okay we need to organize our books we can't afford full-time we don't need

can't afford full-time we don't need can't afford full-time we don't need fulltime what does that look like

fulltime what does that look like fulltime what does that look like absolutely I think we you you you're

absolutely I think we you you you're absolutely I think we you you you're right it's it's it's it's a reasonably

right it's it's it's it's a reasonably right it's it's it's it's a reasonably new term some geographies have been

new term some geographies have been new term some geographies have been doing it for longer than others and I

doing it for longer than others and I doing it for longer than others and I think you just need to get your head think you just need to get your head think you just need to get your head around it a bit that it's definitely

around it a bit that it's definitely around it a bit that it's definitely beneficial both for for the person

beneficial both for for the person beneficial both for for the person delivering the service the CFO

delivering the service the CFO delivering the service the CFO potentially and the client now when CFOs

potentially and the client now when CFOs potentially and the client now when CFOs are expensive they hit cash so if you've

are expensive they hit cash so if you've are expensive they hit cash so if you've got a stter you want to do the right

got a stter you want to do the right got a stter you want to do the right thing but you're also really conscious

thing but you're also really conscious thing but you're also really conscious on your free cash your cash flow and

on your free cash your cash flow and on your free cash your cash flow and keeping your business going and that

keeping your business going and that keeping your business going and that coughless processes always get ignored

coughless processes always get ignored coughless processes always get ignored right people are chasing the money as

right people are chasing the money as right people are chasing the money as you should you want to keep your you should you want to keep your you should you want to keep your business going you can't lose sight of

business going you can't lose sight of business going you can't lose sight of what you need to get in place because if

what you need to get in place because if what you need to get in place because if you try and unpick things you've done you try and unpick things you've done you try and unpick things you've done wrong earlier it's really hard but

wrong earlier it's really hard but wrong earlier it's really hard but fractional CFO it's not just come about

fractional CFO it's not just come about fractional CFO it's not just come about it's not just a term that that's used

it's not just a term that that's used it's not just a term that that's used for startups or or early early earlier

for startups or or early early earlier for startups or or early early earlier companies with the advancement of

companies with the advancement of companies with the advancement of Technology as well look I'm not saying

Technology as well look I'm not saying Technology as well look I'm not saying technology takes away the need for

technology takes away the need for technology takes away the need for accountants absolutely not but good

accountants absolutely not but good accountants absolutely not but good accounting systems good Finance systems

accounting systems good Finance systems accounting systems good Finance systems and things like that now the staff

and things like that now the staff and things like that now the staff internally educates the staff and gives

internally educates the staff and gives internally educates the staff and gives them the tools to actually do a lot of

them the tools to actually do a lot of them the tools to actually do a lot of the work themselves so technology plus

the work themselves so technology plus the work themselves so technology plus early stage there's absolutely a place

early stage there's absolutely a place early stage there's absolutely a place for fractional CFOs and I actually

for fractional CFOs and I actually for fractional CFOs and I actually think slightly going more pce here but

think slightly going more pce here but think slightly going more pce here but it's actually fractional accounting

it's actually fractional accounting it's actually fractional accounting support without trying to sound like a

support without trying to sound like a support without trying to sound like a Salesman but us in xvar we have various

Salesman but us in xvar we have various Salesman but us in xvar we have various levels of fractional support and often

levels of fractional support and often levels of fractional support and often you talk about bookkeeping a lot but

you talk about bookkeeping a lot but you talk about bookkeeping a lot but there's a huge value in a good there's a huge value in a good there's a huge value in a good bookkeeper right bookkeeping with

bookkeeper right bookkeeping with bookkeeper right bookkeeping with everything but you can get fractional

everything but you can get fractional everything but you can get fractional controllers fractional Financial

controllers fractional Financial controllers fractional Financial Planning and Analysis people fractional

Planning and Analysis people fractional Planning and Analysis people fractional CFOs so often the model that works best

CFOs so often the model that works best CFOs so often the model that works best is potentially some companies Outsource

is potentially some companies Outsource is potentially some companies Outsource their bookkeeping to a service provider

their bookkeeping to a service provider their bookkeeping to a service provider not saying that is the best but often do

not saying that is the best but often do not saying that is the best but often do that and then they get a fractional CFO

that and then they get a fractional CFO that and then they get a fractional CFO to help them with the real strategic

to help them with the real strategic to help them with the real strategic work setting up legal entities in the

work setting up legal entities in the work setting up legal entities in the right place thinking about m&a

right place thinking about m&a right place thinking about m&a transactions putting in a new accounting

transactions putting in a new accounting transactions putting in a new accounting system and you definitely don't want to

system and you definitely don't want to system and you definitely don't want to pay those guys loads and loads of money

pay those guys loads and loads of money pay those guys loads and loads of money when you only need them for one day a when you only need them for one day a when you only need them for one day a week or maybe a day a week and a week a

week or maybe a day a week and a week a week or maybe a day a week and a week a month around your close period or

month around your close period or month around your close period or annually when you do your statutary

annually when you do your statutary annually when you do your statutary accounts but what you cannot ignore is

accounts but what you cannot ignore is accounts but what you cannot ignore is the need for accounting processes it is

the need for accounting processes it is the need for accounting processes it is there and it's there to stay got to get

there and it's there to stay got to get there and it's there to stay got to get it right and I'm trying to make a

it right and I'm trying to make a it right and I'm trying to make a comparison we're in the SEO space for

comparison we're in the SEO space for comparison we're in the SEO space for people that do search engine people that do search engine people that do search engine optimization Consulting I'm wondering if

optimization Consulting I'm wondering if optimization Consulting I'm wondering if this is the same thing because by you

this is the same thing because by you this is the same thing because by you offering fractional services or

offering fractional services or offering fractional services or fractional accounting my assumption

fractional accounting my assumption fractional accounting my assumption right now is that you get to work with a

right now is that you get to work with a right now is that you get to work with a lot of different companies you get to lot of different companies you get to lot of different companies you get to see the good the bad the ugly and I'm

see the good the bad the ugly and I'm see the good the bad the ugly and I'm assuming that the more clients you work assuming that the more clients you work assuming that the more clients you work with you're also you're gaining more

with you're also you're gaining more with you're also you're gaining more skills and experience so would you say

skills and experience so would you say skills and experience so would you say that's probably a slight advantage of

that's probably a slight advantage of that's probably a slight advantage of going I can't have the fulltime over

going I can't have the fulltime over going I can't have the fulltime over here because we don't have the budget here because we don't have the budget here because we don't have the budget for it the more experience you gain it's

for it the more experience you gain it's for it the more experience you gain it's it's the same thing for the SEO it's the same thing for the SEO it's the same thing for the SEO consultant that has years of experience

consultant that has years of experience consultant that has years of experience and they're like look I've seen and done

and they're like look I've seen and done and they're like look I've seen and done everything everything everything absolutely and you also it gives you an

absolutely and you also it gives you an absolutely and you also it gives you an opportunity to grow with the company and

opportunity to grow with the company and opportunity to grow with the company and actually grow that relationship which

actually grow that relationship which actually grow that relationship which helps because often what works with

helps because often what works with helps because often what works with fractional CFO type work is you go in

fractional CFO type work is you go in fractional CFO type work is you go in there they're different things there's there they're different things there's there they're different things there's businesses usual support and then

businesses usual support and then businesses usual support and then there's projects like Acquisitions like

there's projects like Acquisitions like there's projects like Acquisitions like fundraising like things like that where

fundraising like things like that where fundraising like things like that where they actually are quite focused you need

they actually are quite focused you need they actually are quite focused you need a person in there to do that thing for

a person in there to do that thing for a person in there to do that thing for you and then they move on but with what

you and then they move on but with what you and then they move on but with what I found is so I work in the gaming space

I found is so I work in the gaming space I found is so I work in the gaming space and others but we talk gaming for a bit

and others but we talk gaming for a bit and others but we talk gaming for a bit you've got operators you've got you've got operators you've got you've got operators you've got Affiliates you've got media you

Affiliates you've got media you Affiliates you've got media you Publishers whatever else different

Publishers whatever else different Publishers whatever else different terminology but

definitely you see good The Good the Bad definitely you see good The Good the Bad and the Ugly and you definitely see best

and the Ugly and you definitely see best and the Ugly and you definitely see best practice and every now and again you got

practice and every now and again you got practice and every now and again you got to move your accounting hat to the side

to move your accounting hat to the side to move your accounting hat to the side and put a little bit of Industry n on

and put a little bit of Industry n on and put a little bit of Industry n on there and maybe a little bit of there and maybe a little bit of there and maybe a little bit of commerciality on there and then look at

commerciality on there and then look at commerciality on there and then look at what the best is for the organizations

what the best is for the organizations what the best is for the organizations but just in the affiliate space

but just in the affiliate space but just in the affiliate space different Affiliates do different things different Affiliates do different things different Affiliates do different things well and different things badly very

well and different things badly very well and different things badly very seldom you get someone doing it doing

seldom you get someone doing it doing seldom you get someone doing it doing doing everything right problem is that

doing everything right problem is that doing everything right problem is that again it's that it's a chicken and EG

again it's that it's a chicken and EG again it's that it's a chicken and EG egg situation you start a business

egg situation you start a business egg situation you start a business you've got a concept that starts doing

you've got a concept that starts doing you've got a concept that starts doing quite well you focus on the business

quite well you focus on the business quite well you focus on the business your client relationships suppliers etc

your client relationships suppliers etc your client relationships suppliers etc etc and suddenly one day when you're big

etc and suddenly one day when you're big etc and suddenly one day when you're big you go we should have done the you go we should have done the you go we should have done the accounting and you got to think and then

accounting and you got to think and then accounting and you got to think and then you need to go I can unpick that so I

you need to go I can unpick that so I you need to go I can unpick that so I think that most Affiliates most startups

think that most Affiliates most startups think that most Affiliates most startups in any industry can get their fractional

in any industry can get their fractional in any industry can get their fractional Finance support in at quite a low cost

Finance support in at quite a low cost Finance support in at quite a low cost get a relationship going with that

get a relationship going with that get a relationship going with that consultant so to speak and if you need

consultant so to speak and if you need consultant so to speak and if you need more of their time or their business's

more of their time or their business's more of their time or their business's time you can organize it right but they

time you can organize it right but they time you can organize it right but they learn your business they learn your learn your business they learn your learn your business they learn your industry they learn your people I

industry they learn your people I industry they learn your people I personally

personally personally my best for me would be to have five

my best for me would be to have five my best for me would be to have five clients that come back over and over

clients that come back over and over clients that come back over and over again maybe 10 at a push but no more

again maybe 10 at a push but no more again maybe 10 at a push but no more than that right from a fractional

than that right from a fractional than that right from a fractional perspective and some need more of my

perspective and some need more of my perspective and some need more of my time some need less and like I've behind

time some need less and like I've behind time some need less and like I've behind me I've got a whole bunch of books that me I've got a whole bunch of books that me I've got a whole bunch of books that I'm always reading and one book that

I'm always reading and one book that I'm always reading and one book that comes to mind is called the slight Edge

comes to mind is called the slight Edge comes to mind is called the slight Edge I forget who the author is but the

I forget who the author is but the I forget who the author is but the concept is that you're compounding wins

concept is that you're compounding wins concept is that you're compounding wins over time they don't have to be big wins

over time they don't have to be big wins over time they don't have to be big wins but you're moving the needle every day

but you're moving the needle every day but you're moving the needle every day and I'm wondering if if media Affiliates

and I'm wondering if if media Affiliates and I'm wondering if if media Affiliates don't do enough the accounting work as a

don't do enough the accounting work as a don't do enough the accounting work as a small startup but I'm wondering if that small startup but I'm wondering if that small startup but I'm wondering if that would move the needle for them if they

would move the needle for them if they would move the needle for them if they actually had an eye like an eye on the

actually had an eye like an eye on the actually had an eye like an eye on the pulse of their business because I think

pulse of their business because I think pulse of their business because I think when you don't have a QuickBooks or a

when you don't have a QuickBooks or a when you don't have a QuickBooks or a zero setup or any setup really I'm just

zero setup or any setup really I'm just zero setup or any setup really I'm just wondering imagine being an investor and

wondering imagine being an investor and wondering imagine being an investor and I think you've been on this side where

I think you've been on this side where I think you've been on this side where you've got m&a transactions over here

you've got m&a transactions over here you've got m&a transactions over here the bigger company wants to acquire the the bigger company wants to acquire the the bigger company wants to acquire the smaller company the bigger company has

smaller company the bigger company has smaller company the bigger company has really solid books all the time and

really solid books all the time and really solid books all the time and they're looking for Best Practices yeah

they're looking for Best Practices yeah they're looking for Best Practices yeah no you're right and and and when you the

no you're right and and and when you the no you're right and and and when you the founder or the person running the

founder or the person running the founder or the person running the business you need a challenge you need

business you need a challenge you need business you need a challenge you need someone to be challenging you not

someone to be challenging you not someone to be challenging you not challenging how you're doing things but

challenging how you're doing things but challenging how you're doing things but almost challenging your business model almost challenging your business model almost challenging your business model as well which is quite strategic from a

as well which is quite strategic from a as well which is quite strategic from a fractional CFO perspective that's one of

fractional CFO perspective that's one of fractional CFO perspective that's one of the things you deliver you can look at a

the things you deliver you can look at a the things you deliver you can look at a I can look at a set of numbers and see

I can look at a set of numbers and see I can look at a set of numbers and see something quite different to you John

something quite different to you John something quite different to you John I'll immediately focus in on the

I'll immediately focus in on the I'll immediately focus in on the different types of revenue streams the different types of revenue streams the different types of revenue streams the gross margins on each stream I'll look

gross margins on each stream I'll look gross margins on each stream I'll look at things from a trend perspective where

at things from a trend perspective where at things from a trend perspective where things are profitable or not it's

things are profitable or not it's things are profitable or not it's amazing and not really in the affiliate

amazing and not really in the affiliate amazing and not really in the affiliate space but in how many Industries where

space but in how many Industries where space but in how many Industries where businesses are big they actually running

businesses are big they actually running businesses are big they actually running a stream of business that's loss making

a stream of business that's loss making a stream of business that's loss making so big run so quickly one of the if you

so big run so quickly one of the if you so big run so quickly one of the if you narrowed out and carved out a p&l for

narrowed out and carved out a p&l for narrowed out and carved out a p&l for that particular vertical of their

that particular vertical of their that particular vertical of their business it's loss making and if you

business it's loss making and if you business it's loss making and if you don't set your numbers out up to see

don't set your numbers out up to see don't set your numbers out up to see that you'll carry on doing it and

that you'll carry on doing it and that you'll carry on doing it and putting money in the wrong place I I

putting money in the wrong place I I putting money in the wrong place I I actually wonder I I don't know if I can

actually wonder I I don't know if I can actually wonder I I don't know if I can find the data but I did a quick survey

find the data but I did a quick survey find the data but I did a quick survey on LinkedIn to ask Affiliates or just

on LinkedIn to ask Affiliates or just on LinkedIn to ask Affiliates or just people in general it's like what

people in general it's like what people in general it's like what accounting systems are you using is it

accounting systems are you using is it accounting systems are you using is it QuickBooks is it zero is it something

QuickBooks is it zero is it something QuickBooks is it zero is it something else or nothing at all and the answers

else or nothing at all and the answers else or nothing at all and the answers are all pretty much evenly spit split

are all pretty much evenly spit split are all pretty much evenly spit split like 20 to 30% each so it makes me

like 20 to 30% each so it makes me like 20 to 30% each so it makes me wonder like I'm going to make an

wonder like I'm going to make an wonder like I'm going to make an assumption that most Affiliates that are

assumption that most Affiliates that are assumption that most Affiliates that are making let's say under 10 grand a month

making let's say under 10 grand a month making let's say under 10 grand a month don't really do proper accounting they

don't really do proper accounting they don't really do proper accounting they basically just ship off everything to

basically just ship off everything to basically just ship off everything to their accountant unless they love doing

their accountant unless they love doing their accountant unless they love doing accounting and do it M themselves but

accounting and do it M themselves but accounting and do it M themselves but I'm assuming it's just basically here's I'm assuming it's just basically here's I'm assuming it's just basically here's the mess and I to be honest I've done

the mess and I to be honest I've done the mess and I to be honest I've done that for a long time I just said here's

that for a long time I just said here's that for a long time I just said here's all my stuff I don't care what this

all my stuff I don't care what this all my stuff I don't care what this looks like I just want it done

looks like I just want it done looks like I just want it done absolutely that happens we all do it

absolutely that happens we all do it absolutely that happens we all do it accountants do it with their own Affairs

accountants do it with their own Affairs accountants do it with their own Affairs right I'm not squeaky ke either I think

right I'm not squeaky ke either I think right I'm not squeaky ke either I think so so so looking at it holistically I

so so so looking at it holistically I so so so looking at it holistically I was about to go and

was about to go and was about to go and start some great business that was that

start some great business that was that start some great business that was that was going to take off and flly the first

was going to take off and flly the first was going to take off and flly the first thing I'll do is mat of a matchers i'

thing I'll do is mat of a matchers i' thing I'll do is mat of a matchers i' Implement zero after you open a bank

Implement zero after you open a bank Implement zero after you open a bank account you get zero you join them and

account you get zero you join them and account you get zero you join them and you at least start getting a recording you at least start getting a recording you at least start getting a recording of your transactions once you've got all

of your transactions once you've got all of your transactions once you've got all of that done you've at least got

of that done you've at least got of that done you've at least got something to look something to look something to look at on a regular basis on a monthly basis

at on a regular basis on a monthly basis at on a regular basis on a monthly basis you've got your bank statements that are you've got your bank statements that are you've got your bank statements that are itemized your items that are um aligned

itemized your items that are um aligned itemized your items that are um aligned to the right things they're feeding into to the right things they're feeding into to the right things they're feeding into the right jail code just getting that in

the right jail code just getting that in the right jail code just getting that in it doesn't cost a lot that is something

it doesn't cost a lot that is something it doesn't cost a lot that is something that doesn't cost a lot you can get that

that doesn't cost a lot you can get that that doesn't cost a lot you can get that done quite quickly and if you got the

done quite quickly and if you got the done quite quickly and if you got the right kind of people in your right kind of people in your right kind of people in your organization you know they can actually

organization you know they can actually organization you know they can actually run

run run zero pretty easily and they might need a

zero pretty easily and they might need a zero pretty easily and they might need a bit of accounting help for certain

bit of accounting help for certain bit of accounting help for certain aspects of it but you can do that and

aspects of it but you can do that and aspects of it but you can do that and just getting that in place just gives just getting that in place just gives just getting that in place just gives you control immediately you got to do it

you control immediately you got to do it you control immediately you got to do it right but you will have an elemented

right but you will have an elemented right but you will have an elemented control immediately zero tells you when

control immediately zero tells you when control immediately zero tells you when you've got vet returns and tax and

you've got vet returns and tax and you've got vet returns and tax and you've got to submit accounts and all of

you've got to submit accounts and all of you've got to submit accounts and all of that but you just need to get something

that but you just need to get something that but you just need to get something in place spreadsheets are not the answer

in place spreadsheets are not the answer in place spreadsheets are not the answer okay so very quick question QuickBooks

okay so very quick question QuickBooks okay so very quick question QuickBooks zero or fresh books which one would you

zero or fresh books which one would you zero or fresh books which one would you not recommend or is zero at the top of

not recommend or is zero at the top of not recommend or is zero at the top of your your your list so atex we use zero a lot we we

list so atex we use zero a lot we we list so atex we use zero a lot we we work with others we get slightly bigger

work with others we get slightly bigger work with others we get slightly bigger companies like Oracle netsuite which is

companies like Oracle netsuite which is companies like Oracle netsuite which is great we use zero a lot we use Dynamics

great we use zero a lot we use Dynamics great we use zero a lot we use Dynamics Microsoft so we use Microsoft

Microsoft so we use Microsoft Microsoft so we use Microsoft products and I think John without

products and I think John without products and I think John without getting too technical I think all of

getting too technical I think all of getting too technical I think all of them they're competitors of each other

them they're competitors of each other them they're competitors of each other so they all do very similar things I

so they all do very similar things I so they all do very similar things I think the key to

think the key to think the key to any Erp or general ledger implementation

any Erp or general ledger implementation any Erp or general ledger implementation is getting that chart of accounts right

is getting that chart of accounts right is getting that chart of accounts right because if I said to you how do you run

because if I said to you how do you run because if I said to you how do you run your business job you would say I like

your business job you would say I like your business job you would say I like to see this this and this you need to

to see this this and this you need to to see this this and this you need to make sure that you set your chart of make sure that you set your chart of make sure that you set your chart of accounts up right then when you start

accounts up right then when you start accounts up right then when you start producing your reports automated reports

producing your reports automated reports producing your reports automated reports you can see exactly what you need to see

you can see exactly what you need to see you can see exactly what you need to see I wouldn't say one's better than the I wouldn't say one's better than the I wouldn't say one's better than the other I mean I'm better at zero and I

other I mean I'm better at zero and I other I mean I'm better at zero and I can do I can put it in more quickly so

can do I can put it in more quickly so can do I can put it in more quickly so that would be my default we've got I'm

that would be my default we've got I'm that would be my default we've got I'm working with a client that that's been

working with a client that that's been working with a client that that's been going for a while and it's making going for a while and it's making going for a while and it's making millions and got nothing so we what we

millions and got nothing so we what we millions and got nothing so we what we doing there is they they've got a number

doing there is they they've got a number doing there is they they've got a number of legal entities dotted all over the

of legal entities dotted all over the of legal entities dotted all over the globe some have got something others

globe some have got something others globe some have got something others have got nothing but what we're having

have got nothing but what we're having have got nothing but what we're having to do using zero and various other

to do using zero and various other to do using zero and various other systems is do a

systems is do a systems is do a consolidation on top of those systems

consolidation on top of those systems consolidation on top of those systems well I think they all decent To Be

well I think they all decent To Be well I think they all decent To Be Honest John just get something in cool

Honest John just get something in cool Honest John just get something in cool I'll stick with QuickBooks then I'm glad

I'll stick with QuickBooks then I'm glad I'll stick with QuickBooks then I'm glad I don't I don't have to move no so you

I don't I don't have to move no so you I don't I don't have to move no so you talked about a couple things earlier and

talked about a couple things earlier and talked about a couple things earlier and I just wanted to know what do Affiliates

I just wanted to know what do Affiliates I just wanted to know what do Affiliates need to do for good bookkeeping because

need to do for good bookkeeping because need to do for good bookkeeping because we talked about p&l balance sheets and

we talked about p&l balance sheets and we talked about p&l balance sheets and documenting their assets and work in documenting their assets and work in documenting their assets and work in that situation now where we technically

that situation now where we technically that situation now where we technically have p&l but we have companies saying

have p&l but we have companies saying have p&l but we have companies saying hey we'd like cleaner p&l reports we're

hey we'd like cleaner p&l reports we're hey we'd like cleaner p&l reports we're working on that and then when it comes

working on that and then when it comes working on that and then when it comes to balance sheets and assets this is

to balance sheets and assets this is to balance sheets and assets this is where I'm like what does this look like

where I'm like what does this look like where I'm like what does this look like and when should affiliates start zeroing

and when should affiliates start zeroing and when should affiliates start zeroing in on

this yeah really good question so if you this yeah really good question so if you were doing things the ideal state which

were doing things the ideal state which were doing things the ideal state which is not hard to get to is that

is not hard to get to is that is not hard to get to is that you have a financial model right your

you have a financial model right your you have a financial model right your financial model sounds

financial model sounds financial model sounds complicated is your financial statements

complicated is your financial statements complicated is your financial statements that you will need you've got a p&l

that you will need you've got a p&l that you will need you've got a p&l you've got a balance sheet and you've you've got a balance sheet and you've you've got a balance sheet and you've got a cash flow which and they're all

got a cash flow which and they're all got a cash flow which and they're all integrated right

now balance sheet is a different stories now balance sheet is a different stories you'll have an annual audit and Auditors

you'll have an annual audit and Auditors you'll have an annual audit and Auditors will come in and they'll they'll either

will come in and they'll they'll either will come in and they'll they'll either prepare prepare your balance sheet or

prepare prepare your balance sheet or prepare prepare your balance sheet or audit your balance sheet or different audit your balance sheet or different audit your balance sheet or different parties will do different things I think

parties will do different things I think parties will do different things I think you get your pnl right and then as a

you get your pnl right and then as a you get your pnl right and then as a tech company you cons

tech company you cons tech company you cons continually investing in Tech your

continually investing in Tech your continually investing in Tech your you're you've got intangibles and you've

you're you've got intangibles and you've you're you've got intangibles and you've B tangibles but your balance sheets

B tangibles but your balance sheets B tangibles but your balance sheets obviously a large chunk of your balance obviously a large chunk of your balance obviously a large chunk of your balance sheet sheet sheet is going to be the value of your

is going to be the value of your is going to be the value of your technology the thing that makes you a

technology the thing that makes you a technology the thing that makes you a business and to get that you've

business and to get that you've business and to get that you've obviously got to do

obviously got to do obviously got to do valuation but the thing that you've got

valuation but the thing that you've got valuation but the thing that you've got to understand and this is where we go

to understand and this is where we go to understand and this is where we go and go we haven't done it wrong but you and go we haven't done it wrong but you and go we haven't done it wrong but you haven't done it exactly to benefit

haven't done it exactly to benefit haven't done it exactly to benefit yourself the thing I think from a

yourself the thing I think from a yourself the thing I think from a balance sheet perspective in a tech

balance sheet perspective in a tech balance sheet perspective in a tech company is what to capitalize and what

company is what to capitalize and what company is what to capitalize and what not to so you spend some cash on a piece

not to so you spend some cash on a piece not to so you spend some cash on a piece of tech do you just expense it or do you

of tech do you just expense it or do you of tech do you just expense it or do you say hey it's actually adding to the say hey it's actually adding to the say hey it's actually adding to the value of the asset so we're going to

value of the asset so we're going to value of the asset so we're going to capitalize this amount and that the

capitalize this amount and that the capitalize this amount and that the asset value is is is going to increase

asset value is is is going to increase asset value is is is going to increase so that's really important and it's so that's really important and it's so that's really important and it's worth getting some advice on that really

worth getting some advice on that really worth getting some advice on that really important and then Affiliates that are

important and then Affiliates that are important and then Affiliates that are are seen it happen time and time again

are seen it happen time and time again are seen it happen time and time again there was a little bit of a affiliate

there was a little bit of a affiliate there was a little bit of a affiliate acquisition spree a a few years ago with

acquisition spree a a few years ago with acquisition spree a a few years ago with the US opening up so big Affiliates were

the US opening up so big Affiliates were the US opening up so big Affiliates were buying smaller smaller Affiliates and

buying smaller smaller Affiliates and buying smaller smaller Affiliates and bloggers and things like that and

bloggers and things like that and bloggers and things like that and they're paying the low big sums of money

they're paying the low big sums of money they're paying the low big sums of money for them and when you buy a business you

for them and when you buy a business you for them and when you buy a business you got to do your purchase price accounting

got to do your purchase price accounting got to do your purchase price accounting you're basically doing a valuation of

you're basically doing a valuation of you're basically doing a valuation of that business and then when you own the

that business and then when you own the that business and then when you own the business and it's not performing as well

business and it's not performing as well business and it's not performing as well as it should be performing you get a

as it should be performing you get a as it should be performing you get a thing called an impairment which I'm thing called an impairment which I'm thing called an impairment which I'm sure you've heard about but that's when

sure you've heard about but that's when sure you've heard about but that's when you write down the value of the asset

you write down the value of the asset you write down the value of the asset and the the double entry it hits the p&l

and the the double entry it hits the p&l and the the double entry it hits the p&l and investors hate that because that's a

and investors hate that because that's a and investors hate that because that's a surprise so you need to inake

surprise so you need to inake surprise so you need to inake particularly affiliate websites apps

particularly affiliate websites apps particularly affiliate websites apps things like that you need to really look

things like that you need to really look things like that you need to really look at the performance of those assets from

at the performance of those assets from at the performance of those assets from an impairment perspective because it is

an impairment perspective because it is an impairment perspective because it is not pretty when you get hit with one

not pretty when you get hit with one not pretty when you get hit with one also it's not good to fight against

also it's not good to fight against also it's not good to fight against impairment if it should be impaired

impairment if it should be impaired impairment if it should be impaired because then you just get yourself tied

because then you just get yourself tied because then you just get yourself tied in a not as well sounds like a lot of

in a not as well sounds like a lot of in a not as well sounds like a lot of fun but that is something yeah it's bit

fun but that is something yeah it's bit fun but that is something yeah it's bit of a nightmare yeah oh one other thing

of a nightmare yeah oh one other thing of a nightmare yeah oh one other thing John I don't know if it fits in now but

John I don't know if it fits in now but John I don't know if it fits in now but I think it

can I'd love to hear other people's can I'd love to hear other people's views but from my perspective so I've

views but from my perspective so I've views but from my perspective so I've done interim and fractional CFO rols of

done interim and fractional CFO rols of done interim and fractional CFO rols of big affiliat so being there and done

big affiliat so being there and done big affiliat so being there and done there it's hard work

there it's hard work there it's hard work but when we looked at Finance technology

but when we looked at Finance technology but when we looked at Finance technology and looked at which was the best Erp and

and looked at which was the best Erp and and looked at which was the best Erp and every vendor was telling us that their

every vendor was telling us that their every vendor was telling us that their product would fit perfectly and whatever

product would fit perfectly and whatever product would fit perfectly and whatever the biggest issue we ever had was the

the biggest issue we ever had was the the biggest issue we ever had was the billing so a lot of er providers tell

billing so a lot of er providers tell billing so a lot of er providers tell you that the E will deal with your

you that the E will deal with your you that the E will deal with your billing but it actually billing but it actually billing but it actually won't often you've got these billing

won't often you've got these billing won't often you've got these billing engines that sit outside inside the Erp

engines that sit outside inside the Erp engines that sit outside inside the Erp and they've got to integrate with the and they've got to integrate with the and they've got to integrate with the Erp and if you don't get your billing

Erp and if you don't get your billing Erp and if you don't get your billing right then it's just manually intensive

right then it's just manually intensive right then it's just manually intensive you've just got to get people all over you've just got to get people all over you've just got to get people all over that um so when you choose an Erp just

that um so when you choose an Erp just that um so when you choose an Erp just think about your building Cycles yeah

think about your building Cycles yeah think about your building Cycles yeah it's a little ironic there it sounds

it's a little ironic there it sounds it's a little ironic there it sounds like uh the billing and the accounting

like uh the billing and the accounting like uh the billing and the accounting side of affiliate marketing is actually

side of affiliate marketing is actually side of affiliate marketing is actually becoming a paino as you work with you

becoming a paino as you work with you becoming a paino as you work with you work with 10 affiliate programs that's

work with 10 affiliate programs that's work with 10 affiliate programs that's in theory easy but once you're getting

in theory easy but once you're getting in theory easy but once you're getting let's say 50 different payments coming

let's say 50 different payments coming let's say 50 different payments coming in per month then they're all varying in per month then they're all varying in per month then they're all varying amounts and they don't pay on time and

amounts and they don't pay on time and amounts and they don't pay on time and then there's fees and then there's fees

then there's fees and then there's fees then there's fees and then there's fees that are taken and they're not even

that are taken and they're not even that are taken and they're not even documented and then they come from

documented and then they come from documented and then they come from observe companies like World pay which

observe companies like World pay which observe companies like World pay which is just a payment Gateway we're talking

is just a payment Gateway we're talking is just a payment Gateway we're talking to a lot of Affiliates and going how do to a lot of Affiliates and going how do to a lot of Affiliates and going how do we try to solve this so we make their we try to solve this so we make their we try to solve this so we make their lives easier I think there are solutions

lives easier I think there are solutions lives easier I think there are solutions but I don't think there's stuff out of

but I don't think there's stuff out of but I don't think there's stuff out of the box and there's no also the your

the box and there's no also the your the box and there's no also the your payment providers and bench are

payment providers and bench are payment providers and bench are extremely important in this business if

extremely important in this business if extremely important in this business if you don't have good relationships with

you don't have good relationships with you don't have good relationships with them you really struggle well pay I to

them you really struggle well pay I to them you really struggle well pay I to work for

work for work for worldpay but that's obviously massive

worldpay but that's obviously massive worldpay but that's obviously massive was FIS not worldpay again but even you

was FIS not worldpay again but even you was FIS not worldpay again but even you just in the gaming space you almost

just in the gaming space you almost just in the gaming space you almost payment providers and and affiliate in

payment providers and and affiliate in payment providers and and affiliate in gaming they just go together and I don't

gaming they just go together and I don't gaming they just go together and I don't think that there's a perfect solution

think that there's a perfect solution think that there's a perfect solution out there just yet but there's some that

out there just yet but there's some that out there just yet but there's some that are more Optimum than others absolutely

are more Optimum than others absolutely are more Optimum than others absolutely right payments are payments are I've

right payments are payments are I've right payments are payments are I've seen affilates

seen affilates seen affilates where fet business has got also for

where fet business has got also for where fet business has got also for paying out they've got hundreds of

paying out they've got hundreds of paying out they've got hundreds of credit cards in the business and they do

credit cards in the business and they do credit cards in the business and they do KS on credit cards exactly there's all

KS on credit cards exactly there's all KS on credit cards exactly there's all kinds of things where people are chasing kinds of things where people are chasing kinds of things where people are chasing the revenue and they'll do anything put

the revenue and they'll do anything put the revenue and they'll do anything put any bad process in place just to make it

any bad process in place just to make it any bad process in place just to make it happen it sounds like we need to build

happen it sounds like we need to build happen it sounds like we need to build some sort of auditing software it's plug

some sort of auditing software it's plug some sort of auditing software it's plug and play your system and let's see how

and play your system and let's see how and play your system and let's see how good or bad you are and give your give

good or bad you are and give your give good or bad you are and give your give yourself a score because when you say yourself a score because when you say yourself a score because when you say those things about like people having

those things about like people having those things about like people having mess credit cards I know the last couple

mess credit cards I know the last couple mess credit cards I know the last couple years we cleaned up our credit card so years we cleaned up our credit card so years we cleaned up our credit card so it's like company credit card things are

it's like company credit card things are it's like company credit card things are more aligned and we're already thinking

more aligned and we're already thinking more aligned and we're already thinking two steps ahead about going what are the

two steps ahead about going what are the two steps ahead about going what are the advantages of having multiple cards if

advantages of having multiple cards if advantages of having multiple cards if we segment data where we can say all

we segment data where we can say all we segment data where we can say all payments that go through here are X all

payments that go through here are X all payments that go through here are X all revenue that comes through this account

revenue that comes through this account revenue that comes through this account is something else perfect it line up

is something else perfect it line up is something else perfect it line up perfectly and when you do it though you

perfectly and when you do it though you perfectly and when you do it though you have to think we've got to think big

have to think we've got to think big have to think we've got to think big right you say there's a solution that

right you say there's a solution that right you say there's a solution that works for us today work for us in five

works for us today work for us in five works for us today work for us in five years time if we hit our growth targets

years time if we hit our growth targets years time if we hit our growth targets and I think a lot of people get it wrong

and I think a lot of people get it wrong and I think a lot of people get it wrong then as well you do you put in a real

then as well you do you put in a real then as well you do you put in a real tatical solution which is just not

tatical solution which is just not tatical solution which is just not scalable right so hansard's great isn't

scalable right so hansard's great isn't scalable right so hansard's great isn't it but they these problems for business

it but they these problems for business it but they these problems for business owners all right so another challenging

owners all right so another challenging owners all right so another challenging uh question that's on the same theme uh

uh question that's on the same theme uh uh question that's on the same theme uh kind of like valuations is what are the

kind of like valuations is what are the kind of like valuations is what are the ways you can get evaluation of your

ways you can get evaluation of your ways you can get evaluation of your company I think you said one where it's

company I think you said one where it's company I think you said one where it's let's go through your balance sheet and

let's go through your balance sheet and let's go through your balance sheet and kind of document your intellectual

kind of document your intellectual kind of document your intellectual property and I think on the other side

property and I think on the other side property and I think on the other side of it is the company wants to buy you

of it is the company wants to buy you of it is the company wants to buy you should you maybe maybe this is not

should you maybe maybe this is not should you maybe maybe this is not ethical but you could actually fish and

ethical but you could actually fish and ethical but you could actually fish and go what would someone pay and basically

go what would someone pay and basically go what would someone pay and basically John okay particularly in this industry

John okay particularly in this industry John okay particularly in this industry I've I've I've seen different deals that just

seen different deals that just seen different deals that just contradict each other like I've moved

contradict each other like I've moved contradict each other like I've moved away from saying let's do a discounted

away from saying let's do a discounted away from saying let's do a discounted cash flow for cost let's do this let's

cash flow for cost let's do this let's cash flow for cost let's do this let's do that I think you can do all of those

do that I think you can do all of those do that I think you can do all of those things and the numbers can tell you what things and the numbers can tell you what things and the numbers can tell you what you want to hear but benchmarking this

you want to hear but benchmarking this you want to hear but benchmarking this industry is so volatile and there's so

industry is so volatile and there's so industry is so volatile and there's so many Peaks and troughs and it's so

many Peaks and troughs and it's so many Peaks and troughs and it's so season season season and States open up and people get

and States open up and people get and States open up and people get excited and blah blah blah that there's

excited and blah blah blah that there's excited and blah blah blah that there's really a lot of inflated valuations that

really a lot of inflated valuations that really a lot of inflated valuations that you see out there and and big companies

you see out there and and big companies you see out there and and big companies paying that kind of money don't really paying that kind of money don't really paying that kind of money don't really care so it's a hard one but I think

care so it's a hard one but I think care so it's a hard one but I think everyone's always going to look at eadar

everyone's always going to look at eadar everyone's always going to look at eadar and a multiple of eadar saying that I've

and a multiple of eadar saying that I've and a multiple of eadar saying that I've just done two Acquisitions for loss

just done two Acquisitions for loss just done two Acquisitions for loss making companies so evll was nothing

making companies so evll was nothing making companies so evll was nothing right I still went for some decent money

right I still went for some decent money right I still went for some decent money but I think bench walking bench walking

but I think bench walking bench walking but I think bench walking bench walking is a good one go and find a computer out

is a good one go and find a computer out is a good one go and find a computer out there who's just been solved see what it

there who's just been solved see what it there who's just been solved see what it is work it out I think that's one I

is work it out I think that's one I is work it out I think that's one I think getting an evaluation done of your

think getting an evaluation done of your think getting an evaluation done of your Tech stack at a point in time is

Tech stack at a point in time is Tech stack at a point in time is probably a good idea I think that

probably a good idea I think that probably a good idea I think that companies will also look at uh synergies

companies will also look at uh synergies companies will also look at uh synergies if you think about it you sorry let me

if you think about it you sorry let me if you think about it you sorry let me just go back a bit

just go back a bit just go back a bit but again gain right place at the right

but again gain right place at the right but again gain right place at the right time I'm sitting in a house in a really

time I'm sitting in a house in a really time I'm sitting in a house in a really small village of 350 people it's a

small village of 350 people it's a small village of 350 people it's a massive house and I think it's worth a

massive house and I think it's worth a massive house and I think it's worth a million say but the chances of me

million say but the chances of me million say but the chances of me getting a million are tiny unless there

getting a million are tiny unless there getting a million are tiny unless there a person with a huge family who actually

a person with a huge family who actually a person with a huge family who actually wants a big house in a small village but

wants a big house in a small village but wants a big house in a small village but if that person drives in tomorrow it'll

if that person drives in tomorrow it'll if that person drives in tomorrow it'll be solved next week and it's like that

be solved next week and it's like that be solved next week and it's like that as well as you say

as well as you say as well as you say so yeah so my my I don't have one

so yeah so my my I don't have one so yeah so my my I don't have one approach to this someone will say to me

approach to this someone will say to me approach to this someone will say to me how much do you think I can get for this

how much do you think I can get for this how much do you think I can get for this and there'll be a number of things that

and there'll be a number of things that and there'll be a number of things that cross my mind and a lot of them aren't

cross my mind and a lot of them aren't cross my mind and a lot of them aren't formal I do always like to for my own

formal I do always like to for my own formal I do always like to for my own purposes do a discounted cash flow

purposes do a discounted cash flow purposes do a discounted cash flow forecast where you look at the forecast where you look at the forecast where you look at the projections but that is just based on

projections but that is just based on projections but that is just based on what the seller tells me exactly but

what the seller tells me exactly but what the seller tells me exactly but would you say it's interesting I know in

would you say it's interesting I know in would you say it's interesting I know in my situation where we've talked to

my situation where we've talked to my situation where we've talked to companies and they're like our like from

companies and they're like our like from companies and they're like our like from our personal situation we're approaching

our personal situation we're approaching our personal situation we're approaching profitability but we've had one person

profitability but we've had one person profitability but we've had one person wanted to talk m&a and they said but

wanted to talk m&a and they said but wanted to talk m&a and they said but you're profitable yet and we said no but

you're profitable yet and we said no but you're profitable yet and we said no but that was important to them but we're that was important to them but we're that was important to them but we're like look if you care about that like

like look if you care about that like like look if you care about that like you just told me that you about two

you just told me that you about two you just told me that you about two deals that are companies that weren't

deals that are companies that weren't deals that are companies that weren't profitable but it's they had something

profitable but it's they had something profitable but it's they had something else intangible and we think we're the

else intangible and we think we're the else intangible and we think we're the same so do you think that there's just same so do you think that there's just same so do you think that there's just people out there that have like maybe an

people out there that have like maybe an people out there that have like maybe an old school mentality of going there's

old school mentality of going there's old school mentality of going there's nothing wrong with saying hey I I only nothing wrong with saying hey I I only nothing wrong with saying hey I I only want cash flow positive businesses

want cash flow positive businesses want cash flow positive businesses there's people ask their thesis but I'm

there's people ask their thesis but I'm there's people ask their thesis but I'm wanting missing out on

wanting missing out on wanting missing out on opportunity definitely I'm I think I

opportunity definitely I'm I think I opportunity definitely I'm I think I think it's all about it's all about I

think it's all about it's all about I think it's all about it's all about I think to a large extent it's also about

think to a large extent it's also about think to a large extent it's also about financial resources available to the

financial resources available to the financial resources available to the buyer

buyer buyer because you know massive

because you know massive because you know massive companies in putting some bridging

companies in putting some bridging companies in putting some bridging Finance can buy business that's going to

Finance can buy business that's going to Finance can buy business that's going to be lost making for five years they want

be lost making for five years they want be lost making for five years they want the tech they don't really care but if

the tech they don't really care but if the tech they don't really care but if generally

generally generally speaking if an acquirer doesn't actually

speaking if an acquirer doesn't actually speaking if an acquirer doesn't actually want to they don't have the the cash if

want to they don't have the the cash if want to they don't have the the cash if the company needs funding over a period

the company needs funding over a period the company needs funding over a period of time and they don't have the

of time and they don't have the of time and they don't have the resources to fund that company month

resources to fund that company month resources to fund that company month after month then what they're going to

after month then what they're going to after month then what they're going to have to do is they're going to have to have to do is they're going to have to have to do is they're going to have to borrow some cash they're going to go and

borrow some cash they're going to go and borrow some cash they're going to go and get a facility or do whatever and when

get a facility or do whatever and when get a facility or do whatever and when you start putting that back into the p&l

you start putting that back into the p&l you start putting that back into the p&l they want to make sure that they

they want to make sure that they they want to make sure that they understand exactly

understand exactly understand exactly when the company they want to acquire is

when the company they want to acquire is when the company they want to acquire is going to start generating free cash flow

going to start generating free cash flow going to start generating free cash flow otherwise it impacts their funding so I

otherwise it impacts their funding so I otherwise it impacts their funding so I think to a large extent there is a bit

think to a large extent there is a bit think to a large extent there is a bit of that there is a bit of that and even

of that there is a bit of that and even of that there is a bit of that and even if they are interested in non-profitable

if they are interested in non-profitable if they are interested in non-profitable company they'll definitely want to know

company they'll definitely want to know company they'll definitely want to know when it becomes profitable and how

when it becomes profitable and how when it becomes profitable and how accurate your projections are and if

accurate your projections are and if accurate your projections are and if you've got 24 months of loss but the

you've got 24 months of loss but the you've got 24 months of loss but the loss keeps getting smaller and it's

loss keeps getting smaller and it's loss keeps getting smaller and it's going in the right direction that's

going in the right direction that's going in the right direction that's quite powerful as well

quite powerful as well quite powerful as well true yeah okay then maybe another

true yeah okay then maybe another true yeah okay then maybe another question I have has to do with boring

question I have has to do with boring question I have has to do with boring money so we're talking about m&a and

money so we're talking about m&a and money so we're talking about m&a and then there's what is a startup or an

then there's what is a startup or an then there's what is a startup or an affiliate can they do they can raise

affiliate can they do they can raise affiliate can they do they can raise money for investment but I think there's

money for investment but I think there's money for investment but I think there's a lot of people that don't really talk

a lot of people that don't really talk a lot of people that don't really talk about a part of the business which is

about a part of the business which is about a part of the business which is Raising debt to go when can you take out

Raising debt to go when can you take out Raising debt to go when can you take out a loan to accelerate your business when

a loan to accelerate your business when a loan to accelerate your business when we look at the big players better

we look at the big players better we look at the big players better Collective and gambling.com in in the

Collective and gambling.com in in the Collective and gambling.com in in the news like in the press release that

news like in the press release that news like in the press release that they've taken out loans because they

they've taken out loans because they they've taken out loans because they don't really need to sell more debt don't really need to sell more debt don't really need to sell more debt they've already got do you need to be in

they've already got do you need to be in they've already got do you need to be in that cash flow position to be able to

that cash flow position to be able to that cash flow position to be able to consider debt or is it more of a

consider debt or is it more of a consider debt or is it more of a situation where you'll just be able to

situation where you'll just be able to situation where you'll just be able to pay off the debt so it's more strategic

pay off the debt so it's more strategic pay off the debt so it's more strategic to say I'm going to keep the equity and

to say I'm going to keep the equity and to say I'm going to keep the equity and I'm just going to say look I'll pay the I'm just going to say look I'll pay the I'm just going to say look I'll pay the interest when it when time is due yeah

interest when it when time is due yeah interest when it when time is due yeah yeah depending on who you talk to you'll yeah depending on who you talk to you'll yeah depending on who you talk to you'll get a different answer so my opinion but

get a different answer so my opinion but get a different answer so my opinion but if you believe in your company which I

if you believe in your company which I if you believe in your company which I hope most people

hope most people hope most people do tugs at the heartstrings to give away

do tugs at the heartstrings to give away do tugs at the heartstrings to give away Equity right because you've been there

Equity right because you've been there Equity right because you've been there you've been in the trenches you built you've been in the trenches you built you've been in the trenches you built this thing up you had sleepless nights

this thing up you had sleepless nights this thing up you had sleepless nights you worked with your co-founders and now

you worked with your co-founders and now you worked with your co-founders and now someone and someone comes in and says

someone and someone comes in and says someone and someone comes in and says I'll give you 5 million for 20% of your

I'll give you 5 million for 20% of your I'll give you 5 million for 20% of your company it's a tough one to

company it's a tough one to company it's a tough one to swallow but on the flip side that is a

swallow but on the flip side that is a swallow but on the flip side that is a bit of a nightmare as well

bit of a nightmare as well bit of a nightmare as well because a lot of these particularly in

because a lot of these particularly in because a lot of these particularly in the space you you've got quite a few

the space you you've got quite a few the space you you've got quite a few spoke there's a risk appetite associated

spoke there's a risk appetite associated spoke there's a risk appetite associated with the affiliate marketing space in

with the affiliate marketing space in with the affiliate marketing space in gaming and gaming in general so

gaming and gaming in general so gaming and gaming in general so generally the bog standard debt

generally the bog standard debt generally the bog standard debt providers are going to be quite providers are going to be quite providers are going to be quite different they won't be bog standard different they won't be bog standard different they won't be bog standard they're going to be they're going to be they're going to be they're going to be they're going to be they're going to be providers that have got a different kind providers that have got a different kind providers that have got a different kind of risk appetite and having a diff

of risk appetite and having a diff of risk appetite and having a diff different kind of risk appetite means

different kind of risk appetite means different kind of risk appetite means that the terms and conditions are going

that the terms and conditions are going that the terms and conditions are going to be quite tough so what they'll do is

to be quite tough so what they'll do is to be quite tough so what they'll do is they'll put in some warrants

and but says if you default we take some and but says if you default we take some of your company anyway so things like

of your company anyway so things like of your company anyway so things like that and and then a lot of

that and and then a lot of that and and then a lot of providers have quite tough covenants

providers have quite tough covenants providers have quite tough covenants dist ratios that you have to hit

dist ratios that you have to hit dist ratios that you have to hit otherwise you're in trouble

otherwise you're in trouble otherwise you're in trouble and then there's obviously there are

and then there's obviously there are and then there's obviously there are payments that are quite tough you have a

payments that are quite tough you have a payments that are quite tough you have a bad month you've got to you've got to

bad month you've got to you've got to bad month you've got to you've got to have money in the bank to actually pay

have money in the bank to actually pay have money in the bank to actually pay them but I'm just thinking back to to

them but I'm just thinking back to to them but I'm just thinking back to to some de providers A lot of them you can

some de providers A lot of them you can some de providers A lot of them you can go and take a loan which is debt and

go and take a loan which is debt and go and take a loan which is debt and then you can take out a facility which

then you can take out a facility which then you can take out a facility which you only use if you need it which is

you only use if you need it which is you only use if you need it which is quite a nice thing to

quite a nice thing to quite a nice thing to have a lot of

have a lot of have a lot of companies raise funds or go to dat when

companies raise funds or go to dat when companies raise funds or go to dat when they want to acquire they want to do a they want to acquire they want to do a they want to acquire they want to do a whole lot of Acquisitions but they don't whole lot of Acquisitions but they don't whole lot of Acquisitions but they don't have the money so then they go in and

have the money so then they go in and have the money so then they go in and they they go for debt and then that the

they they go for debt and then that the they they go for debt and then that the penants are just tough and you get this

penants are just tough and you get this penants are just tough and you get this money and I've seen cases where they've

money and I've seen cases where they've money and I've seen cases where they've got access to massive facility and then

got access to massive facility and then got access to massive facility and then you read the small print and it says the

you read the small print and it says the you read the small print and it says the facility is yours but you can't use it facility is yours but you can't use it facility is yours but you can't use it for m&a so like there You' just got to

for m&a so like there You' just got to for m&a so like there You' just got to be really careful with de and you've

be really careful with de and you've be really careful with de and you've just got to model those model the debt

just got to model those model the debt just got to model those model the debt quite well so you understand exactly quite well so you understand exactly quite well so you understand exactly where you're going to be

where you're going to be where you're going to be I no I get that it's yeah just thinking

I no I get that it's yeah just thinking I no I get that it's yeah just thinking about it from like the m&a point of view

about it from like the m&a point of view about it from like the m&a point of view it's interesting but pivoting slightly

it's interesting but pivoting slightly it's interesting but pivoting slightly different in the SAS space there's

different in the SAS space there's different in the SAS space there's actually a bunch of lending agencies

actually a bunch of lending agencies actually a bunch of lending agencies that have come about and they're that have come about and they're that have come about and they're interesting programs so what they do is

interesting programs so what they do is interesting programs so what they do is they basically their SAS product that

they basically their SAS product that they basically their SAS product that you plug in your stripe data your

you plug in your stripe data your you plug in your stripe data your QuickBooks your bank and then they

QuickBooks your bank and then they QuickBooks your bank and then they basically say here's your entire

basically say here's your entire basically say here's your entire dashboards here's your um here's where

dashboards here's your um here's where dashboards here's your um here's where you're losing customers here's your

you're losing customers here's your you're losing customers here's your projected revenue and then what they'll

projected revenue and then what they'll projected revenue and then what they'll do is they'll be basically go we'll lend

do is they'll be basically go we'll lend do is they'll be basically go we'll lend you money based on your actual data so

you money based on your actual data so you money based on your actual data so we're seeing more this more in the SAS

we're seeing more this more in the SAS we're seeing more this more in the SAS space and this product was created

space and this product was created space and this product was created because SAS companies were like look because SAS companies were like look because SAS companies were like look we're SAS and we know we're growing in we're SAS and we know we're growing in we're SAS and we know we're growing in the right direction and Banks don't

the right direction and Banks don't the right direction and Banks don't really understand SAS because Banks yeah

really understand SAS because Banks yeah really understand SAS because Banks yeah they're not really encountering SAS so

they're not really encountering SAS so they're not really encountering SAS so I'm just wondering maybe there's a I'm just wondering maybe there's a I'm just wondering maybe there's a future product at the market we could be

future product at the market we could be future product at the market we could be a part of that could be how much time a part of that could be how much time a part of that could be how much time have we got John I want to take all your

have we got John I want to take all your have we got John I want to take all your time we got to get half hour max okay

time we got to get half hour max okay time we got to get half hour max okay this is interesting no it's really

this is interesting no it's really this is interesting no it's really interesting you say that because I've

interesting you say that because I've interesting you say that because I've just done a a SAS

just done a a SAS just done a a SAS exit got nothing to do with gaming got

exit got nothing to do with gaming got exit got nothing to do with gaming got to do with erps but as you say people

to do with erps but as you say people to do with erps but as you say people don't really understand s cuz you m

don't really understand s cuz you m don't really understand s cuz you m great so you've got the hockey stick great so you've got the hockey stick great so you've got the hockey stick approach right where it goes down and if

approach right where it goes down and if approach right where it goes down and if you do you run your business then you

you do you run your business then you you do you run your business then you get the right results but so much about

get the right results but so much about get the right results but so much about so well the exited I guess all of

so well the exited I guess all of so well the exited I guess all of them SAS multiples are massive if you

them SAS multiples are massive if you them SAS multiples are massive if you compare sass multiple to General bog

compare sass multiple to General bog compare sass multiple to General bog standard business and Affiliates some

standard business and Affiliates some standard business and Affiliates some something else they

something else they something else they are quadruple and I guess that's because

are quadruple and I guess that's because are quadruple and I guess that's because so much emphasis is being placed on that

so much emphasis is being placed on that so much emphasis is being placed on that recurring Revenue piece right and

recurring Revenue piece right and recurring Revenue piece right and customer churn so if your customers aren

customer churn so if your customers aren customer churn so if your customers aren churning and you're growing at a decent

churning and you're growing at a decent churning and you're growing at a decent Spa uh pace and you're keeping that

Spa uh pace and you're keeping that Spa uh pace and you're keeping that recurring Revenue then Life's good then

recurring Revenue then Life's good then recurring Revenue then Life's good then there's a huge amount of confidence in there's a huge amount of confidence in there's a huge amount of confidence in your business so you're right so if

your business so you're right so if your business so you're right so if banks and lenders are able to be plug

banks and lenders are able to be plug banks and lenders are able to be plug into their data data right you're lat

into their data data right you're lat into their data data right you're lat guy as powerful it's similar to revenue

guy as powerful it's similar to revenue guy as powerful it's similar to revenue share like recurring Revenue we've got

share like recurring Revenue we've got share like recurring Revenue we've got recurring Revenue share it's almost

recurring Revenue share it's almost recurring Revenue share it's almost identical models with it goes back to

identical models with it goes back to identical models with it goes back to what you said earlier there is risk like

what you said earlier there is risk like what you said earlier there is risk like there's SEO risk there's operators going

there's SEO risk there's operators going there's SEO risk there's operators going out of business so you do have churn in

out of business so you do have churn in out of business so you do have churn in affiliate space it just looks a little

affiliate space it just looks a little affiliate space it just looks a little different yeah no absolutely but there's

different yeah no absolutely but there's different yeah no absolutely but there's definitely something there I think

definitely something there I think definitely something there I think fundraising is to debt is a difficult

fundraising is to debt is a difficult fundraising is to debt is a difficult process at the moment to mention

process at the moment to mention process at the moment to mention interest rates but just the whole debt

interest rates but just the whole debt interest rates but just the whole debt process is quite tough for for for a

process is quite tough for for for a process is quite tough for for for a business would you think that is like

business would you think that is like business would you think that is like the Last Frontier that people seem to

the Last Frontier that people seem to the Last Frontier that people seem to understand the least cuz I'll be honest understand the least cuz I'll be honest understand the least cuz I'll be honest like here's my business Journey it's

like here's my business Journey it's like here's my business Journey it's build affiliate sites create a startup

build affiliate sites create a startup build affiliate sites create a startup and then raise Capital so we're selling

and then raise Capital so we're selling and then raise Capital so we're selling equity and now we have this opportunity

equity and now we have this opportunity equity and now we have this opportunity for debt and it's like at the more I

for debt and it's like at the more I for debt and it's like at the more I start reading about debt the more I hear

start reading about debt the more I hear start reading about debt the more I hear that not everyone uses it to their

that not everyone uses it to their that not everyone uses it to their advantage and there's a lot of clever

advantage and there's a lot of clever advantage and there's a lot of clever strategies you can use to your advantage

strategies you can use to your advantage strategies you can use to your advantage like you said go back gambling.com

like you said go back gambling.com like you said go back gambling.com better Collective they're they're using better Collective they're they're using better Collective they're they're using these absolutely and I'm not clever

these absolutely and I'm not clever these absolutely and I'm not clever enough to advise on that but you there

enough to advise on that but you there enough to advise on that but you there different products out there as well and

different products out there as well and different products out there as well and you may find a product that is cost

you may find a product that is cost you may find a product that is cost effective in seual business perfectly

effective in seual business perfectly effective in seual business perfectly and it might be an RC for some kind of

and it might be an RC for some kind of and it might be an RC for some kind of facility that you don't use all the time

facility that you don't use all the time facility that you don't use all the time you can top up you can repay and that's

you can top up you can repay and that's you can top up you can repay and that's debt that's there it's on the balance debt that's there it's on the balance debt that's there it's on the balance sheet I think the thing to look out for

sheet I think the thing to look out for sheet I think the thing to look out for is is really tough biggish loans where

is is really tough biggish loans where is is really tough biggish loans where the warrants are tough the terms and

the warrants are tough the terms and the warrants are tough the terms and conditions are tough because then your

conditions are tough because then your conditions are tough because then your business isn't going as well as you

business isn't going as well as you business isn't going as well as you would like it to you're almost

would like it to you're almost would like it to you're almost imprisoned and I think that's quite

imprisoned and I think that's quite imprisoned and I think that's quite tough often with

tough often with tough often with raising raising Capital through

raising raising Capital through raising raising Capital through investment and fundraising and investors

investment and fundraising and investors investment and fundraising and investors often the investors invest in your

often the investors invest in your often the investors invest in your business understand this industry and if

business understand this industry and if business understand this industry and if they understand the industry they

they understand the industry they they understand the industry they understand the Peaks and troughs so so

understand the Peaks and troughs so so understand the Peaks and troughs so so that they kind of stories easier and it

that they kind of stories easier and it that they kind of stories easier and it there's less pressure on man not less

there's less pressure on man not less there's less pressure on man not less pressure on management if you've got if pressure on management if you've got if pressure on management if you've got if you've got investors they on the journey

you've got investors they on the journey you've got investors they on the journey with you yeah and and it goes with

with you yeah and and it goes with with you yeah and and it goes with saying we're assuming that they're the saying we're assuming that they're the saying we're assuming that they're the ones that know the space inside out and

ones that know the space inside out and ones that know the space inside out and they're the ones that are understanding

they're the ones that are understanding they're the ones that are understanding how can they not just add value but

how can they not just add value but how can they not just add value but what's the word it's like Arbitrage like

what's the word it's like Arbitrage like what's the word it's like Arbitrage like for example are an affiliate site and

for example are an affiliate site and for example are an affiliate site and then the first thing you do say I've got then the first thing you do say I've got then the first thing you do say I've got a bank load of better deals we're going

a bank load of better deals we're going a bank load of better deals we're going to do like deal Arbitrage right off the

to do like deal Arbitrage right off the to do like deal Arbitrage right off the bat I've heard this Affiliates action

bat I've heard this Affiliates action bat I've heard this Affiliates action taking six months to recover their value

taking six months to recover their value taking six months to recover their value just absolutely insane totally insane

just absolutely insane totally insane just absolutely insane totally insane absolutely insane and not very fair

absolutely insane and not very fair absolutely insane and not very fair either

either either oh the next question I have is more to

oh the next question I have is more to oh the next question I have is more to do with tips so like I said I'm going

do with tips so like I said I'm going do with tips so like I said I'm going down this uh accounting journey of going

down this uh accounting journey of going down this uh accounting journey of going what can I do to help Affiliates um use

what can I do to help Affiliates um use what can I do to help Affiliates um use any accounting tips that would help them

any accounting tips that would help them any accounting tips that would help them so the two that I'm giving to Affiliates

so the two that I'm giving to Affiliates so the two that I'm giving to Affiliates are one's on the payment and tracking

are one's on the payment and tracking are one's on the payment and tracking side so for example I ask Affiliates all

side so for example I ask Affiliates all side so for example I ask Affiliates all the time going do you use like one iban

the time going do you use like one iban the time going do you use like one iban or do you have multiples and most common

or do you have multiples and most common or do you have multiples and most common answer is they've got one but they do

answer is they've got one but they do answer is they've got one but they do frequently have payments where they're

frequently have payments where they're frequently have payments where they're like I have no idea who this is we spent

like I have no idea who this is we spent like I have no idea who this is we spent days trying to consolidate this so I

days trying to consolidate this so I days trying to consolidate this so I said if you can isolate your problematic

said if you can isolate your problematic said if you can isolate your problematic payments then you can give them unique

payments then you can give them unique payments then you can give them unique iband that's one tip to basically say

iband that's one tip to basically say iband that's one tip to basically say okay you're funneling your data through

okay you're funneling your data through okay you're funneling your data through sources source of Truth and then the

sources source of Truth and then the sources source of Truth and then the other one is what my accountant did this

other one is what my accountant did this other one is what my accountant did this years ago like we were doing year end

years ago like we were doing year end years ago like we were doing year end and I had this invoice and it was unpaid

and I had this invoice and it was unpaid and I had this invoice and it was unpaid and he's what are we doing about this and he's what are we doing about this and he's what are we doing about this and it was a substantial amount well

and it was a substantial amount well and it was a substantial amount well name the program but they just went out name the program but they just went out name the program but they just went out of business invoice is done so he yeah

of business invoice is done so he yeah of business invoice is done so he yeah anytime you have these unpaid invoices

anytime you have these unpaid invoices anytime you have these unpaid invoices which hate to say it it's happening a

which hate to say it it's happening a which hate to say it it's happening a bit more frequently in affiliate bit more frequently in affiliate bit more frequently in affiliate marketing like I think depending on your

marketing like I think depending on your marketing like I think depending on your jurisdiction you can claim this back as

jurisdiction you can claim this back as jurisdiction you can claim this back as a loss for your

a loss for your a loss for your books yeah yeah absolutely

no you you you need to turn a bad no you you you need to turn a bad situation into something good

situation into something good situation into something good right yeah if you can no look we've

right yeah if you can no look we've right yeah if you can no look we've discussed quite a few tips I'm not

discussed quite a few tips I'm not discussed quite a few tips I'm not necessarily for Affiliates or accounting

necessarily for Affiliates or accounting necessarily for Affiliates or accounting tips tips tips I just being being really well organized

I just being being really well organized I just being being really well organized I don't just me in the finance space so

I don't just me in the finance space so I don't just me in the finance space so I've got some clients that is

I've got some clients that is I've got some clients that is where it is quite strange but I've got

where it is quite strange but I've got where it is quite strange but I've got some clients as I said that have been

some clients as I said that have been some clients as I said that have been operating for a while they're doing operating for a while they're doing operating for a while they're doing quite well and they've got

quite well and they've got quite well and they've got nothing and then I have some new clients

nothing and then I have some new clients nothing and then I have some new clients with the founders all over it and they

with the founders all over it and they with the founders all over it and they asking me what they should do

asking me what they should do asking me what they should do but one

but one but one real thing something that I do really

real thing something that I do really real thing something that I do really often is when I'm trying to educate

often is when I'm trying to educate often is when I'm trying to educate someone about

someone about someone about organization I use data room structure

organization I use data room structure organization I use data room structure to help them get organized because who

to help them get organized because who to help them get organized because who knows you want to exit one day and the

knows you want to exit one day and the knows you want to exit one day and the data room structure is there for a data room structure is there for a data room structure is there for a reason right that's what investors want

reason right that's what investors want reason right that's what investors want to see so I often if I'm starting from

to see so I often if I'm starting from to see so I often if I'm starting from scratch we'll say this is what a data

scratch we'll say this is what a data scratch we'll say this is what a data room looks like You' got Finance you've

room looks like You' got Finance you've room looks like You' got Finance you've got tax you've got commercial you got

got tax you've got commercial you got got tax you've got commercial you got legal you've got people you got

legal you've got people you got legal you've got people you got technology any contract

technology any contract technology any contract documentation invoice set of accounts

documentation invoice set of accounts documentation invoice set of accounts whatever you've got get it

whatever you've got get it whatever you've got get it filed in your data room structure you

filed in your data room structure you filed in your data room structure you can call it whatever you want but I use

can call it whatever you want but I use can call it whatever you want but I use a data room structure because then

a data room structure because then a data room structure because then when numerous reasons you're raising

when numerous reasons you're raising when numerous reasons you're raising funds you've got the structure you're

funds you've got the structure you're funds you've got the structure you're having an audit you've got the structure

having an audit you've got the structure having an audit you've got the structure you're looking for an exit you've got

you're looking for an exit you've got you're looking for an exit you've got the structure sometimes acquirers get

the structure sometimes acquirers get the structure sometimes acquirers get reverse D reverse due diligence done on

reverse D reverse due diligence done on reverse D reverse due diligence done on them as well you've got the structure if

them as well you've got the structure if them as well you've got the structure if you're an acquirer so my my tip is just

you're an acquirer so my my tip is just you're an acquirer so my my tip is just they one get that organized when we set

they one get that organized when we set they one get that organized when we set up our business we did that we went

up our business we did that we went up our business we did that we went we've got nothing we've got no clients

we've got nothing we've got no clients we've got nothing we've got no clients but we're going to set it up as if we've but we're going to set it up as if we've but we're going to set it up as if we've got got got loads and we did that so I think that's

loads and we did that so I think that's loads and we did that so I think that's one I think just putting in a system IM

one I think just putting in a system IM one I think just putting in a system IM immediately is another one even if

immediately is another one even if immediately is another one even if you've got two transactions going you've got two transactions going you've got two transactions going through your bank account I think that's through your bank account I think that's through your bank account I think that's one and then I think what is really good

one and then I think what is really good one and then I think what is really good say if you've got whether it's

say if you've got whether it's say if you've got whether it's fractional Finance support or internal

fractional Finance support or internal fractional Finance support or internal Finance support no one knows more about

Finance support no one knows more about Finance support no one knows more about your plans then you the founder the

your plans then you the founder the your plans then you the founder the owner the entrepreneur you've got to

owner the entrepreneur you've got to owner the entrepreneur you've got to educate the finance people about where

educate the finance people about where educate the finance people about where you want to go with your business and

you want to go with your business and you want to go with your business and often as a result of that you get a

often as a result of that you get a often as a result of that you get a commercial Finance person he CU bog

commercial Finance person he CU bog commercial Finance person he CU bog standard accountants right debits and

standard accountants right debits and standard accountants right debits and credits we close the books we keep you

credits we close the books we keep you credits we close the books we keep you out of jail we submit your accounts and

out of jail we submit your accounts and out of jail we submit your accounts and your tax returns and then we go home and

your tax returns and then we go home and your tax returns and then we go home and we watch TV or do whatever but

we watch TV or do whatever but we watch TV or do whatever but constantly to understand more about the

constantly to understand more about the constantly to understand more about the business yeah I think it's General best

business yeah I think it's General best business yeah I think it's General best practices just pretend you have an practices just pretend you have an practices just pretend you have an investor coming along board the cleaner

investor coming along board the cleaner investor coming along board the cleaner you have the books to right well these you have the books to right well these you have the books to right well these guys for card like it's the messy room

guys for card like it's the messy room guys for card like it's the messy room syndrome it's uh walk into someone's

syndrome it's uh walk into someone's syndrome it's uh walk into someone's house and you want to see something house and you want to see something house and you want to see something clean and organized clean and organized clean and organized and it shows that there's attention to

and it shows that there's attention to and it shows that there's attention to detail and I'm just starting to learn as

detail and I'm just starting to learn as detail and I'm just starting to learn as my pattern that I think the companies

my pattern that I think the companies my pattern that I think the companies that they have more success they have that they have more success they have that they have more success they have more organization yeah they're not doing

more organization yeah they're not doing more organization yeah they're not doing it for it's they're doing it for

it for it's they're doing it for it for it's they're doing it for business reasons some people this might business reasons some people this might business reasons some people this might be fun to them but I think for most

be fun to them but I think for most be fun to them but I think for most people oh I don't want to clean my

people oh I don't want to clean my people oh I don't want to clean my room absolutely yeah and and and other

room absolutely yeah and and and other room absolutely yeah and and and other thing just to remember is that the

thing just to remember is that the thing just to remember is that the finance function accountants whether

finance function accountants whether finance function accountants whether they're internal or external whatever

they're internal or external whatever they're internal or external whatever they're a Control Function right they're

they're a Control Function right they're they're a Control Function right they're controlling the business they'll tell

controlling the business they'll tell controlling the business they'll tell you whether you're making a good

you whether you're making a good you whether you're making a good decision or a bad decision and that's decision or a bad decision and that's decision or a bad decision and that's commercial Finance they need to business

commercial Finance they need to business commercial Finance they need to business partner with you to give you that

partner with you to give you that partner with you to give you that commercial intelligence to help you make

commercial intelligence to help you make commercial intelligence to help you make the right to set the right decisions so

the right to set the right decisions so the right to set the right decisions so another tip is for business owners

another tip is for business owners another tip is for business owners really to treat the finance staff

really to treat the finance staff really to treat the finance staff accountants as business partners not

accountants as business partners not accountants as business partners not just accountants

just accountants just accountants yeah makes sense and that's how you get yeah makes sense and that's how you get yeah makes sense and that's how you get the most out of them another unplanned

the most out of them another unplanned the most out of them another unplanned question is I think it's on topic is the

question is I think it's on topic is the question is I think it's on topic is the concept of boards and advisory boards

concept of boards and advisory boards concept of boards and advisory boards when you're small affiliate it can be

when you're small affiliate it can be when you're small affiliate it can be you as a single person it could be two

you as a single person it could be two you as a single person it could be two people as a startup you could be five

people as a startup you could be five people as a startup you could be five people at some point when would you

people at some point when would you people at some point when would you advise people to start looking at

advise people to start looking at advise people to start looking at setting up an Advisory Board I've seen a

setting up an Advisory Board I've seen a setting up an Advisory Board I've seen a few Affiliates do this and when I talked

few Affiliates do this and when I talked few Affiliates do this and when I talked to them and said how did that work and

to them and said how did that work and to them and said how did that work and the Des said it was a great experience

the Des said it was a great experience the Des said it was a great experience like sometimes s they get someone as an

like sometimes s they get someone as an like sometimes s they get someone as an adviser that their expertise is finance

adviser that their expertise is finance adviser that their expertise is finance sometimes the expertise is uh human

sometimes the expertise is uh human sometimes the expertise is uh human resources and it goes on and on yeah

resources and it goes on and on yeah resources and it goes on and on yeah look what is an advisor right I've got

look what is an advisor right I've got look what is an advisor right I've got ex- colleagues friends family members

ex- colleagues friends family members ex- colleagues friends family members who are skilled in certain things and I

who are skilled in certain things and I who are skilled in certain things and I ask them for advice and they give me

ask them for advice and they give me ask them for advice and they give me advice and often I Implement that advice

advice and often I Implement that advice advice and often I Implement that advice but I think the

but I think the but I think the danger of not having that external

danger of not having that external danger of not having that external influence and Appraisal almost is vast

influence and Appraisal almost is vast influence and Appraisal almost is vast because two business owners two Founders

because two business owners two Founders because two business owners two Founders let's say they're two and you go off and

let's say they're two and you go off and let's say they're two and you go off and you start building your business you get

you start building your business you get you start building your business you get so ingrained and entrenched in in in in

so ingrained and entrenched in in in in so ingrained and entrenched in in in in the problem or opportunity statement

the problem or opportunity statement the problem or opportunity statement that sometimes there are a lot of things

that sometimes there are a lot of things that sometimes there are a lot of things that you miss all around whether it be

that you miss all around whether it be that you miss all around whether it be legal Finance accounting or whatever so

legal Finance accounting or whatever so legal Finance accounting or whatever so I think it's always very good to

I think it's always very good to I think it's always very good to have advisors maybe they not in the form

have advisors maybe they not in the form have advisors maybe they not in the form of maybe it's one maybe it becomes an

of maybe it's one maybe it becomes an of maybe it's one maybe it becomes an Advisory Board always good to have them

Advisory Board always good to have them Advisory Board always good to have them just as a sounding board now I think

just as a sounding board now I think just as a sounding board now I think when that's early stage but I think

when that's early stage but I think when that's early stage but I think then as the business succeeds and grows

then as the business succeeds and grows then as the business succeeds and grows you need a real board right you need a

you need a real board right you need a you need a real board right you need a board and sometimes nonexact directors

board and sometimes nonexact directors board and sometimes nonexact directors and boards and that they expect payments

and boards and that they expect payments and boards and that they expect payments sometimes they don't but but I do think

sometimes they don't but but I do think sometimes they don't but but I do think then that as you reach that point in

then that as you reach that point in then that as you reach that point in your your your maturity board comes with corporate

maturity board comes with corporate maturity board comes with corporate governance and you need that it is

governance and you need that it is governance and you need that it is essential and you need the right

essential and you need the right essential and you need the right expertise on that board need a strong

expertise on that board need a strong expertise on that board need a strong chair chairperson but you need Finance

chair chairperson but you need Finance chair chairperson but you need Finance person potentially someone who knows the

person potentially someone who knows the person potentially someone who knows the industry etc etc and I think it's a

industry etc etc and I think it's a industry etc etc and I think it's a really important I've

really important I've really important I've started as an advisor and then become a

started as an advisor and then become a started as an advisor and then become a board member as the company grows I

board member as the company grows I board member as the company grows I volunteered as an advisor in the past

volunteered as an advisor in the past volunteered as an advisor in the past and then the company successful and then

and then the company successful and then and then the company successful and then I'm on the board really important John

I'm on the board really important John I'm on the board really important John you're actually answered part of my

you're actually answered part of my you're actually answered part of my second follow-up question to that which

second follow-up question to that which second follow-up question to that which is I think a lot of people they maybe

is I think a lot of people they maybe is I think a lot of people they maybe have a fear that they get the wrong

have a fear that they get the wrong have a fear that they get the wrong person cuz sometimes you'll get an offer

person cuz sometimes you'll get an offer person cuz sometimes you'll get an offer look I want this board position but it look I want this board position but it look I want this board position but it comes with equity and they want it comes with equity and they want it comes with equity and they want it locked in immediately when other uh

locked in immediately when other uh locked in immediately when other uh advisers have said this should be vested

advisers have said this should be vested advisers have said this should be vested over time and then it's what should the over time and then it's what should the over time and then it's what should the payment structure be and it could be

payment structure be and it could be payment structure be and it could be like you said there's volunteer over like you said there's volunteer over like you said there's volunteer over here which maybe is possibly rare I

here which maybe is possibly rare I here which maybe is possibly rare I don't know there's direct payment and

don't know there's direct payment and don't know there's direct payment and then there is uh payment in the form of

then there is uh payment in the form of then there is uh payment in the form of equity and then I think where where

equity and then I think where where equity and then I think where where we've been concerned is what if we join

we've been concerned is what if we join we've been concerned is what if we join with someone and then we're like it's

with someone and then we're like it's with someone and then we're like it's not working out and we've been in those

not working out and we've been in those not working out and we've been in those situations where after three months situations where after three months situations where after three months we're like we're definitely not the

we're like we're definitely not the we're like we're definitely not the right fit and we need everyone on the

right fit and we need everyone on the right fit and we need everyone on the same page which is why getting an having

same page which is why getting an having same page which is why getting an having an Advisory Board to start is quite good

an Advisory Board to start is quite good an Advisory Board to start is quite good because maybe they there're certain

because maybe they there're certain because maybe they there're certain Diamonds In The Advisory board that when

Diamonds In The Advisory board that when Diamonds In The Advisory board that when you become formal they're there and

you become formal they're there and you become formal they're there and they're there with you yeah I'm not an

they're there with you yeah I'm not an they're there with you yeah I'm not an expert on that John in terms of payment

expert on that John in terms of payment expert on that John in terms of payment structures and things I'm a bit old

structures and things I'm a bit old structures and things I'm a bit old school really where I think if I put in

school really where I think if I put in school really where I think if I put in the time and effort somehow be rewarded

the time and effort somehow be rewarded the time and effort somehow be rewarded I generally work for people or assist

I generally work for people or assist I generally work for people or assist people that I have a good relationship

people that I have a good relationship people that I have a good relationship with it it it generally works out but

with it it it generally works out but with it it it generally works out but that can get quite complicated in terms

that can get quite complicated in terms that can get quite complicated in terms of remuneration how well the business

of remuneration how well the business of remuneration how well the business does I've seen it go horribly wrong and

does I've seen it go horribly wrong and does I've seen it go horribly wrong and I've seen it I've seen many I've seen it I've seen many I've seen it I've seen many relationships get ruined as a result

relationships get ruined as a result relationships get ruined as a result yeah it's not easy to do that and for me

yeah it's not easy to do that and for me yeah it's not easy to do that and for me fortunately I'm lucky to have a business fortunately I'm lucky to have a business fortunately I'm lucky to have a business partner that he's the one that stays on

partner that he's the one that stays on partner that he's the one that stays on top of that and says this is how we

top of that and says this is how we top of that and says this is how we should do it and just to be patient I

should do it and just to be patient I should do it and just to be patient I think a lot of people have lose patience

think a lot of people have lose patience think a lot of people have lose patience going oh I need this and then I think

going oh I need this and then I think going oh I need this and then I think there's a part of the business where

there's a part of the business where there's a part of the business where it's advisory boards to look more

it's advisory boards to look more it's advisory boards to look more professional and then it's let's take

professional and then it's let's take professional and then it's let's take out investors to look more professional

out investors to look more professional out investors to look more professional to make it look like we've made it and

to make it look like we've made it and to make it look like we've made it and yeah I think there's yeah that's a yeah

yeah I think there's yeah that's a yeah yeah I think there's yeah that's a yeah F readed that happens all the time yeah

F readed that happens all the time yeah F readed that happens all the time yeah and then last question to wrap this all

and then last question to wrap this all and then last question to wrap this all up is what do you see of the future of

up is what do you see of the future of up is what do you see of the future of um affiliate marketing as it intersects

um affiliate marketing as it intersects um affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence

with business intelligence with business intelligence yeah so you should be answering this I

yeah so you should be answering this I yeah so you should be answering this I think as I said I think that

think as I said I think that think as I said I think that everything's just going to be affiliate everything's just going to be affiliate everything's just going to be affiliate marketing is already tough

marketing is already tough marketing is already tough right if you look

right if you look right if you look at some of the companies 10 12 15 years

at some of the companies 10 12 15 years at some of the companies 10 12 15 years ago when things were new margins were

ago when things were new margins were ago when things were new margins were huge you could operate in most

huge you could operate in most huge you could operate in most geographies compliance wasn't as tough

geographies compliance wasn't as tough geographies compliance wasn't as tough as it is today blah blah blah and I

as it is today blah blah blah and I as it is today blah blah blah and I think over the years Affiliates have had

think over the years Affiliates have had think over the years Affiliates have had to be more Innovative they've had to

to be more Innovative they've had to to be more Innovative they've had to diversify revenue streams look elsewhere

diversify revenue streams look elsewhere diversify revenue streams look elsewhere look at Partnerships look at different

look at Partnerships look at different look at Partnerships look at different things I think with business

things I think with business things I think with business intelligence and Ai and just data access

intelligence and Ai and just data access intelligence and Ai and just data access to data I think the smarts will get

to data I think the smarts will get to data I think the smarts will get smarter they'll be able to do more with

smarter they'll be able to do more with smarter they'll be able to do more with the data I think it's going to be so

the data I think it's going to be so the data I think it's going to be so much more much more much more competitive because you can access

competitive because you can access competitive because you can access things that you fingertip that things that you fingertip that things that you fingertip that previously you couldn't so it's going to

previously you couldn't so it's going to previously you couldn't so it's going to be a lot more competitive and I think

be a lot more competitive and I think be a lot more competitive and I think what you'll have what what you'll find

what you'll have what what you'll find what you'll have what what you'll find is if you haven't got specialists in

is if you haven't got specialists in is if you haven't got specialists in that field researching looking mining

that field researching looking mining that field researching looking mining doing what they need to do those

doing what they need to do those doing what they need to do those Affiliates will fall by the wayside yeah

Affiliates will fall by the wayside yeah Affiliates will fall by the wayside yeah I think it's all about data right it's

I think it's all about data right it's I think it's all about data right it's scary scary scary actually but but it's true it's scary in

actually but but it's true it's scary in actually but but it's true it's scary in a good way you could argue in a bad way

a good way you could argue in a bad way a good way you could argue in a bad way but I look at I gaming in particular as

but I look at I gaming in particular as but I look at I gaming in particular as saying it's not very data driven as much

saying it's not very data driven as much saying it's not very data driven as much as it could be so my my personal take in

as it could be so my my personal take in as it could be so my my personal take in the next couple years is that I think

the next couple years is that I think the next couple years is that I think the industry could double over in a the industry could double over in a the industry could double over in a short amount of time just by using more

short amount of time just by using more short amount of time just by using more data products and people just getting

data products and people just getting data products and people just getting better I was talking to an affiliate

better I was talking to an affiliate better I was talking to an affiliate customer the other day and they customer the other day and they customer the other day and they basically said one of the problems in I

basically said one of the problems in I basically said one of the problems in I gaming is that it's it's just the cash

gaming is that it's it's just the cash gaming is that it's it's just the cash like all the money that's in the like all the money that's in the like all the money that's in the business gets in the way of people

business gets in the way of people business gets in the way of people actually getting better but uh where's

actually getting better but uh where's actually getting better but uh where's the pressure and I think the pressure is the pressure and I think the pressure is the pressure and I think the pressure is going to come in the form of these

going to come in the form of these going to come in the form of these companies that are getting bigger companies that are getting bigger companies that are getting bigger getting stronger doing m&a in the right

getting stronger doing m&a in the right getting stronger doing m&a in the right way and then going wait a minute it's do

way and then going wait a minute it's do way and then going wait a minute it's do you want to compete or are you going to

you want to compete or are you going to you want to compete or are you going to be under them it's all about working

be under them it's all about working be under them it's all about working harder yeah absolutely and by the way

harder yeah absolutely and by the way harder yeah absolutely and by the way what I didn't say I think one more what I didn't say I think one more what I didn't say I think one more minute but when I was talk about data

minute but when I was talk about data minute but when I was talk about data room setups and all of that I kid you

room setups and all of that I kid you room setups and all of that I kid you not a deal that takes six months could

not a deal that takes six months could not a deal that takes six months could take three months and three months could

take three months and three months could take three months and three months could take a month and a half you can save so

take a month and a half you can save so take a month and a half you can save so much time and much time and much time and money on legal fees and on accountings

money on legal fees and on accountings money on legal fees and on accountings and things like that if you just get

and things like that if you just get and things like that if you just get really well organized from a set of

really well organized from a set of really well organized from a set of perspective that's another good

perspective that's another good perspective that's another good my and you wouldn't need people like me

my and you wouldn't need people like me my and you wouldn't need people like me right you wouldn't need exit support

right you wouldn't need exit support right you wouldn't need exit support because you could do it all yourself my

because you could do it all yourself my because you could do it all yourself my whole selling pitch is I will save you

whole selling pitch is I will save you whole selling pitch is I will save you money by Leading your exit or

money by Leading your exit or money by Leading your exit or acquisition because it just runs a mark

acquisition because it just runs a mark acquisition because it just runs a mark right I I would agree definitely on the

right I I would agree definitely on the right I I would agree definitely on the legal fees been there done that and

legal fees been there done that and legal fees been there done that and going oh we need to do all of this and

going oh we need to do all of this and going oh we need to do all of this and if you're the seller if you're the if you're the seller if you're the if you're the seller if you're the seller and your Affairs aren't organized

seller and your Affairs aren't organized seller and your Affairs aren't organized and the per the acquirer puts puts it on

and the per the acquirer puts puts it on and the per the acquirer puts puts it on hold and says I'll come back to you in 3

hold and says I'll come back to you in 3 hold and says I'll come back to you in 3 weeks that's 3 weeks of legal fees and

weeks that's 3 weeks of legal fees and weeks that's 3 weeks of legal fees and your cash is not going the right way

your cash is not going the right way your cash is not going the right way yeah exactly you got to get those yeah exactly you got to get those yeah exactly you got to get those processes efficient unbelievable Rolan

processes efficient unbelievable Rolan processes efficient unbelievable Rolan thank you so much for doing this I know

thank you so much for doing this I know thank you so much for doing this I know accounting might not be everyone's

accounting might not be everyone's accounting might not be everyone's favorite topic but I do think there's a

favorite topic but I do think there's a favorite topic but I do think there's a lot of people that care about doing

lot of people that care about doing lot of people that care about doing business the right way and I think this business the right way and I think this business the right way and I think this is a a topic that I think is going to

is a a topic that I think is going to is a a topic that I think is going to get more attention as the years go by so

get more attention as the years go by so get more attention as the years go by so I want to pass it back to you and ask

I want to pass it back to you and ask I want to pass it back to you and ask how can people get a hold of

how can people get a hold of how can people get a hold of you people LinkedIn so this is on are

you people LinkedIn so this is on are you people LinkedIn so this is on are you is this on LinkedIn if it is it will

you is this on LinkedIn if it is it will you is this on LinkedIn if it is it will get hold of me on LinkedIn and I've got

get hold of me on LinkedIn and I've got get hold of me on LinkedIn and I've got a website not the most awesome but I

a website not the most awesome but I a website not the most awesome but I think it's good enough and there's some

think it's good enough and there's some think it's good enough and there's some contact links on there or they can ask

contact links on there or they can ask contact links on there or they can ask you John well either or you ask me I'll

you John well either or you ask me I'll you John well either or you ask me I'll do a DM intro but aside from that yeah

do a DM intro but aside from that yeah do a DM intro but aside from that yeah and the show enough no and we've got and the show enough no and we've got and the show enough no and we've got we've really got a number of models we

we've really got a number of models we we've really got a number of models we look to at the clients hybrids

look to at the clients hybrids look to at the clients hybrids fractionals call it what you want once

fractionals call it what you want once fractionals call it what you want once or anything awesome thank you so much

or anything awesome thank you so much or anything awesome thank you so much for doing this no problem Che John

for doing this no problem Che John for doing this no problem Che John bye thank you for tuning in to the

bye thank you for tuning in to the bye thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take

affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

this time to ask for a small favor to this time to ask for a small favor to leave a Reading and Review wherever you

leave a Reading and Review wherever you leave a Reading and Review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps us

listen to your podcast that helps us listen to your podcast that helps us expand our reach to rank higher in

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