How affiliates can benefit from HR & recruitment help with Cordelia Morgan - Cooper
About This Episode
Meet CMC, well that is what I say when talking about Cordelia Morgan - Cooper. She's lived and breathed hiring and managing large HR departments in some major affiliate companies including Catena Media.
Now as a consultant through CMC Consulting, she's learned a lot along the way and has solid advice not just for startups, but affiliates looking to grow their business.
Where to get a hold of Cordelia
Full Transcript
Show: Revenue Optimization with StatsDrone
Episode: How affiliates can benefit from HR & recruitment help with Cordelia Morgan - Cooper
Host: John Wright
Published: Wed, 22 May 2024 06:14:00 +0000
Duration: 37:57
Speaker labels are a two-speaker split from pauses (host vs guest). Timestamps are `[HH:MM:SS]` from the episode audio. Light ASR; names and brands may need a pass.
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John Wright: And I always say to, you know, lone CEOs or, you know, founders, try and get a second opinion, because sometimes you meet someone and you become so blind sighted by how great you think they could be recruiting is like dating, right? You go on a first date, you meet someone you're totally around them by them. They're funny. They're interesting. They're exciting, but you've missed out on many of the red flags that are there. Maybe they turn up an hour late. Maybe, you know, there are many things that we could all spot that often we don't. And I think that that's what my business is here for, to help with the matchmaking
John Wright: service, it's providing, you know, matchmaking between businesses and candidate and being able to be that pair of eyes that says, look, I know this person, they can't highly recommend it. I know them from my network. That really helps too. Um, because you can also help to understand how somebody is by also understanding a bit about them outside of work.
John Wright: I'm John, right? You're listening to affiliate be, I'm the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by stats.
John Wright: Welcome to the affiliate BI podcast. Today we're chatting with Cordelia Morgan Cooper. Uh, she is the founder of hands on recruitment and CMC consulting. Cordelia, welcome to the show.
John Wright: Thanks so much for having me, John. Really excited to be here. So we were just chatting before getting started on recording about personal branding and how this can actually help people, uh, become more, more trustable. So you were saying that some of the things that you do on the personal branding side, you said, this has been very beneficial in helping you launch your business, uh, to build trust. Would you say something similar for the people that you help in your actual business as you're trying to help people actually get jobs and find the perfect role?
John Wright: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if I look at the, the bare bones of recruitment, recruitment is based on trust and by being able to have more of a persona, say in the public space on LinkedIn at conferences, speaking at conferences, this can really help to drive, um, trust between recruitment partners and also businesses. And I think it can also help to be more visible because that then helps you to generate more business too.
John Wright: Right. And it goes to that saying not everyone's comfortable with this idea. I mean, not everyone can say, okay, I'm going to write for IGB or start a podcast or get super personal on LinkedIn. So I guess there's this time and place for people to do these things. Yeah, absolutely. And look, I, I engage with a lot of people on LinkedIn who are starting out in their recruitment career. Maybe they're starting out in their gaming career and they want to know how to get to the next step. And I always say network, network, network. It's all about networking, the personal brand. You don't have to be, you know, posting photos of yourself on a weekly, a daily
John Wright: basis, but you need to be able to come to a conversation with something incredible to say, and I think by networking at, you know, key events, again, you don't have to attend every conference there is. I think we'd all be pretty shattered if we tried to attend every single one, considering, you know, the vast calendar of gaming events and within affiliation as well, but I think, yeah, it's all about getting yourself out there and having those ad hoc conversations, meeting people out and about and being able to discuss with them, not only work things, but also personal things. And that relationship may then lead to something business wise in the future. Right.
John Wright: And I've got another question and I guess we're just going to jump all over the place because we're on topic. It's, um, I've got experience in high school working for an employment agency. So I learned some skills about how to build a resume, how to do an interview, how to do follow up and all these little things that helped me personally get jobs that I had no business getting. And I'm just wondering if this is like a lost skill and then all the stuff with like social media and LinkedIn is kind of like, it's part of the new package of what people could do to make themselves, um, more visible. And I mean, let's face it, if I'm getting a whole bunch of resumes
John Wright: coming across my desk, the first thing I want to do is I want to go on LinkedIn. I want to see their post activity. I want to see how many followers they have. So, uh, what would you say, uh, how valuable this is for, for them?
John Wright: I mean, look, I, I really believe that we are in a kind of war on talent at the moment. The market is extremely competitive within gaming, within affiliation in general, but also as a whole, there are many qualified people who are on the market. At the moment, if I look at what's been happening within businesses, uh, in HR and recruitment teams, the market is flooded with fantastic people who should be working. So one of the key challenges is how you separate yourself from everybody else, which of course is a catch 22. But I would say that by networking, by being out and about by being proactive,
John Wright: not just kind of, uh, pray and pray approach when you're looking for a role, it's to find out who the hiring manager is, what it is about that company, the interests you specifically, do you have something in common with the hiring manager that you can then connect with a more of a personal level? I think also upskilling is something which is really, really important. So if there are certain courses you can take, if it's within the recruitment space, are there certain courses you can take on hiring developers, for example, which is, you know, a very niche area where most businesses are still growing. If it's within content, okay. Are there different softwares that you can look at?
John Wright: Are there different, um, people that you can reach out to into your network who could maybe help and be more of an ally for you, somebody that you can speak to somebody who can mentor you.
John Wright: If I look at, you know, my, where I am now, and a lot of it has been down to partnering with business coaches. I've been really fortunate that I've been given a number of amazing coaches who have helped me see not only my value, but where I can bring value to another company. And I think that for people who are maybe stuck or don't know what the next place is, be brave, reach out to someone that inspires you on LinkedIn. Hey, I've seen your profile. I've seen you speak in a panel. You seem great. Can we connect? And I think people would be shocked by the number of people who would respond to that. I can't think of anyone who would be like, Oh no, not for me.
John Wright: And you know, that really helps because that will help to not only grow your network, but also to help you feel more confident when it's then time for you to find a new role.
John Wright: Yeah. It's actually an interesting comment there because I do these things all the time. And I don't always try to do it to be like, okay, I'm trying to, I've got a sales agenda. But I mean, it goes to the side. We know what it's like to be pitched where it's like, you got the B2B sales message that comes in and it's an automatic no, but like they've just wasted their time and had they done what you said, I would have actually trusted them more just said, connect with me. Hey, you know, I liked your posts on whatever, nothing more. I would have been like one except and two, I'd probably go out of my way and like their stuff and when it came time for them to say, Hey, oh, by the way, I'm looking for position or I, uh, I work with this company, general
John Wright: anyone would be interested or is this of interest to you? I mean, that would be the trust factor going up a lot, but sadly, that's not how people do it. Yeah. And you know, most of recruitment is based on long-term relationships. So the people that I partnered two years ago, I'm still working with now. And those relationships started for many years before that. I don't know a candidate that may not be interested in a role now, maybe a hiring manager or a CEO in two years time.
John Wright: So it really important work up to date, even, you know, silly things like when you're in a queue for a flight, if you hear someone talking about something and they're going to a location that maybe could be gaming affiliation related. Maybe you strike up a conversation or they end up sitting next to you and you know, you then start talking about what you do. I always take a couple of business cards with me in my handbag, because you just never know who you're going to meet where and by keeping your headphones off and keeping a little bit, you know, like listening in and tuned in, you can actually then develop relationships there as well. True. And I thought it was interesting about upskilling, which is, I guess, like
John Wright: just constantly learning and building on your skillset.
John Wright: I haven't done much. I've done a lot of that personally, but I've not actually needed or felt like I needed to put these things on LinkedIn, but I started doing it because I mean, I've got a different agenda, which is I need to win the trust over customers, so I want to show them that I am doing the skills that kind of relates to say, Hey, this guy is really serious about what he's working on and funny enough, because I've done that and I understand the value of
John Wright: not showboating, but sharing it with people. I now look at other LinkedIn profiles the same, like when it comes to either hiring or wanting to even recommend them to someone else. Yeah. And I think also the recommendation tool is really underused in LinkedIn. Anytime we have a successful recruitment project, I always say to the candidate or the client, you know, if you've had a great service, please, can you write us a recommendation? Because people really do read those and most of our business, probably about 90% is now from word of mouth from clients that we've worked with previously who recommend us to other clients or on the same, but on the candidate side.
John Wright: That's a good point. I've not made best use of that, but I know some people that have made excessive use of that, but that's a whole other topic. Oh, right. You want up to this.
John Wright: So I want to jump back a couple of years when you were the talent acquisition manager at Katana Media. I want to ask, I mean, it goes to that saying that's one of the biggest companies in iGaming. So I want to know what it was like working with a giant public company with hundreds of employees.
John Wright: I mean, I remember my time at Katina. So fond me. It was the real heyday of the business.
John Wright: We were all in the office, remote working wasn't a thing. We worked together, played together. The culture was just something which was magic. People really, really loved working there. And it made my job a joy because the moment you said that you were approaching a candidate from Katina straight away, people in Malta would be like, yeah, we'd absolutely love to work there. I mean, working for a public company comes with its challenges. You have changing leadership teams, you have changing direction, you have budgets changing. We hired 500 people in just under three years. And I'm really, really proud of that.
John Wright: To get to 500 candidates, we probably met with 5,000, 7,000. Yeah. The numbers really, when you think about it, and then the number of applications that we then screen through would have been tens of thousands for sure. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. I remember my time so fondly, made lifelong friends. It was an amazing company to be a part of. Yeah. And I mean, what a great, like as you said, it's not just the skills that you've built. When people see that on your resume, they're like, all right, we're going to definitely pay attention to what Cordelia has to say.
John Wright: Yeah. And I think, look, I've worked in a variety of smaller, more startup businesses. After Katina, I went to Cafe Rocks. And, you know, similar as in what they were trying to do, but also very different on the culture side as a remote first company. And I'm remote first. My business CMC is remote first, but it does of course come with its own challenges of how you then motivate people. She always has to make an appearance.
John Wright: I love it when pets show up on the show.
John Wright: Thanks to you. Oh, and our puppy probably is now about to make an appearance too. It's a mad house here of animals. I love it. So let's jump right into work from home versus remote. Uh, what's your preference and philosophy on that? I mean, I personally don't think it's for every company, but I think right now in an age where companies get to pick and choose what they want their culture and environment to be. I mean, you know, I think it's a catch 22 to say, okay, we're going to have an office, but you will miss out on that person that would be your potential next all-star that says, Hey, I, I'm only working from home. Yeah.
John Wright: I mean, I think it's still a hot potato and I speak about this a lot. Uh, from in my personal philosophy, my business will always be remote first. I have, um, a single mom in my team who for her being able to work totally from home when it comes to the flexibility, I'm not sure I would have been able to have, uh, had her join my business, if I couldn't offer that level of flexibility, but I do see in businesses that I consult for that it can face many challenges when you're looking at a more junior workforce. Uh, if I look at the companies I consult for that are more established, they've
John Wright: been able to create like a training framework remotely that is more difficult and it takes much more time.
John Wright: But I also think that management to expect everybody to come in and to use kind of the mindset, well, if we can see you, then we know you're working. That's just not a thing.
John Wright: You can be a busy fool anywhere, you know, regardless of whether you're in the office. I think the key thing is, as we move further into 2024 and beyond that companies have to offer flexibility, what that flexibility looks like. That's up to the individual company, but there needs to be flexibility on the benefit side, on the working from home, working from office policy, because I think what we saw during COVID is life and work are so intrinsically links that actually sometimes work needs to fit into life. And I think before COVID, it was the, other way around the expectation was,
John Wright: well, this has to be done. Yeah, it does have to be done, but not necessarily needs to be done within working hours. Um, and I think, you know, with my recruitment business, recruitment is technically 24 hours a day. We have clients all over the world. So if I moved to a nine till five set up, for example, from home in Cyprus, we could then be missing out on great candidates who want to speak to us on a Saturday or a Sunday. So I say to the team, I don't mind when you work. We just need to get the work done. And for me and my business that really works well. Yeah, I agree. It's some of the recent hires we've had, they basically said, you know,
John Wright: is it okay that I go, you know, see a doctor's appointment or dentist appointment? I'm like, you don't really need permission. Just like send a note, like just let us know that you're going to be gone for like, you know, in a couple of days for some hours, but I'm kind of shocked that to hear like these stories about people needing to like really check in with their time and using software to check in on their work, I'm like, like you said, if the work's done, I don't need to care. Like I don't care if you're actually, well, I'd prefer you. You don't really hang out on the beach and do all your work. But I mean, if you get the job done, I'm like, who am I to say no to this?
John Wright: Yeah. And I think in in a lot of businesses, it's not so easy. And within some departments, it's not easily to tell, you know, output. But with me, with recruitment, it's totally output driven. If you send three CVs instead of one, we're three times more likely to be able to close that role. But also, I haven't put targets in place with my team. It's all about trying to find the right person for the right role. So there's no expectations of 10 CVs, 15 CVs. It's about the right type of person. But ultimately, I can tell the work that's being done on the results that we get.
John Wright: So I'm just thinking out loud. I'm like, you must run into companies that, you know, they're looking to hire people. But then as you start to learn more about this company, I'm just making up an example here. What if not?
John Wright: Yeah, they won't name anyone. But what if they're just like a terrible company that maybe have not the best reputation, but they're, they're looking for you to help fill roles. And it's almost like you don't really want to send good people to places that they don't have, let's say, great onboarding, they don't have good team culture, or you just know that they're not a fit, like what's your thoughts on that?
John Wright: So I think as the business and recruitment is based on relationships, I'm very strict with the team about the companies that we work with. I think I've been in the gaming and affiliate space for long enough to know the real clangers of companies that I just don't want to work with. And it wouldn't really matter if they would offer me probably double what my fees are, you know, once you start to get a reputation for working with businesses that are just shitty to their employees, to lose face. And that's really difficult to come back from.
John Wright: So at the moment, when any of the team engage with clients, I will then have a call with the client to see the vibe as we're moving into more companies within the affiliate space. These of course are outside of gaming, so they could be e-commerce. They could be other businesses. These ones, we have to kind of sometimes go a bit on a wing and a prayer. You have to do your due diligence, but also sometimes you just get that hunch that a company just isn't the right fit. And if I get that feeling, I am happy to take that call that we wouldn't be partnering with them. And you know, not every company that comes to us, we're a fit for them.
John Wright: And that's okay. There'll be other recruiters. There'll be cheaper recruiters that can offer a different service. But I'm proud of the service that we offer because we work more as partners to companies as opposed to hire the role and we're off. It's all about the partnership and the long-term relationship of what we're trying to build, which for them is building, you know, an A-class team. Right. So one, I hope we never end up on that sin bin list and two, we'll chat off the air about who these companies could be just for future reference. Sure. I've got quite a long list now.
John Wright: I'm sure some people, if they get to this part of the podcast, the picks, who is it? And then we'll keep that off limit. Yeah, I think we should keep it under route. Yeah. So as, as a startup, how do you, how does my company compete when there's bigger companies that have like not just hundreds of people, but like, you know, they've got way more money in the bank, they've got a longer reputation. I mean, I'm assuming that you must have some startups that are saying like, look, this is what we're doing. This is what we can afford for salary. How would you say startups should think differently to try to compete and,
John Wright: you know, win these like amazing people? Well, you know what? I don't really see it as a competition because I also see a startup as in a different arena to a very established business. I think when we're looking for specific candidates, what we're discussing with them is the opportunity and the future of where the role might go. You know, if you're the first employee for a business within three years, you could then be leading and co-leading that business. And I think that that's an opportunity that this huge, you know, 500, a thousand person plus companies, your one role in a huge selection of roles. So for you to then get to the next stage, it'll take longer.
John Wright: Um, but you know, more established businesses, much bigger businesses and startups, they both have different benefits. And I think actually what makes a very well-rounded employee is if you've been able to work and be lucky enough to work across both, because, you know, in a startup you're expected to, and you need to do a little bit of everything. Yeah. Your job description is this, but you'll probably end up doing this. You're going to have exposure to loads more areas. You're going to probably have more pressure to begin with because the expectations will be quite high. Because as the founders, you know, maybe as the first employee, they've never hired somebody before, you know, all of the recruitment eggs are in your
John Wright: basket and you're there to hopefully succeed and, you know, help the business grow, but I think, yeah, there's huge value in both. I think my role as a recruiter is to help the candidate understand the ins and outs of the role. It's not just here's the job description off you go. It's also about the culture fit, the future, what the founders are like, where they've come from, what their vision is. And I think that that's also why businesses partner with us because we're there to help take the stress out of recruitment for them to help them better qualify candidates.
John Wright: Because, you know, you meet somebody at a conference, you meet someone in a, in an hour interview, they tell you everything you want to hear. And you think that they're perfect. And it's only then a month in that you think, you know what, they said this, but actually they haven't done this at all. We've all been there, hired people that we think are, you know, going to be the A players and actually they sold us a very good story, but they're not quite the right fit. And I think that that's what we're here for as well is to manage those relationships between the new employee and the business to see if we can then, you know, help and resolve potential challenges.
John Wright: That's an interesting thing because we've been in that position before. And I was kind of thinking out loud. I'm like, do we as a company want to work with an HR company? Cause we've always done our own in-house hiring. But now when I look back on the last three years of some of the bad people that we did hire, I actually think if we, if we were lucky enough or smart enough to work with you in the first place, I think we actually would have avoided these things. Cause we did get a couple of people that sold themselves as the A player. We're excited to get the A player. And then we're like, even if they were an A player, it was just like a really bad culture fit and we're just like, look, um, this never should
John Wright: have happened or we should have not taking it, taken as much time to let them go. We should have been like, no, this is clearly not a fit. I think, um, probably in startups, I think this could be something that actually destroys a lot of companies. Yeah. And I think, look, that's why I set up my business the way that I did that we're an HR consultancy that offers recruitment services. We're kind of a one-stop shop when it comes to anything people related. Because we have a number of founders that, you know, the businesses scaled very quickly, they needed to hire quickly, but also they're not experts within recruitment. They don't have the time to be going to an indeed advert with maybe 150 application.
John Wright: They look at two, yeah, okay. They're right for the business, but actually culturally, are they right for the business? They've said they can commit to three days in the office. Can they actually, you know, I've been in recruitment my entire career. So almost 15 years without giving my A to a wedding. And I think what I've seen is, you know, if I look at the thousands of candidates that I would have spoken to over the years, I can also spot red flags in a way that would be different to a CEO who maybe has just set his business up. He is so passionate in what he does that he sells the role so well to the candidate.
John Wright: And actually the employees start and the role isn't like that at all. And I think that when companies are starting out, they need to be quite clear about who they are as a business, because that will also affect the types of candidates that will be attracted to the role, but also will start and whether they're then right for the company.
John Wright: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's I'm just thinking back of the years of pain. I know where I am lucky today is that I've got a business partner who
John Wright: whenever I've I've done these decisions of hiring these people and thinking that, you know, this is going to be great and it turns out not to be great.
John Wright: Usually he's not like them. And I've learned now to give him the power to say, as soon as he doesn't like him, I'm like, the writing's on the wall. It's I'm lucky to have that. I could just imagine how many founders in small startups don't have this at all.
John Wright: Yeah. And I always say to, you know, lone CEOs or, you know, founders, try and get a second opinion, because sometimes you meet someone and you become so blindsided by how great you think they could be that you just don't spot that I often say that recruiting is like dating, right? You go on a first date, you meet someone, you're totally around them by them. They're funny. They're interesting. They're exciting. They seem to take all of the boxes of everything you want, but you've missed out on many of the red flags that are there. Maybe they turn up an hour late.
John Wright: Maybe, you know, there are many things that we could all spot that often we don't, and I think that that's what my business is here for, to help with the matchmaking service is providing, you know, matchmaking between businesses and candidate and being able to be that pair of eyes that says, look, I know this person, they can't highly recommend it. I know them from my network. That really helps too. Um, because you can also help to understand how somebody is by also understanding a bit about them outside of work.
John Wright: Now, would it be bad for me to look at someone's LinkedIn profile when I'm considering them for position and I see eight months, nine months, 1.3 years, eight months, nine months. Like these are their, their positions and there's no, there's no, uh, what's the word like consistency or longevity in some of their, their careers. And they just seem to bounce around. And sometimes I will actually ask someone and call them out on it. And then I find that there, their answers sometimes are like a giveaway that maybe if I were to hire them, they would become the same thing. Um, I also believe that that doesn't apply to everyone.
John Wright: Like sometimes you do get the right person, but their history says that. But, um, sometimes I think certain things are either out of their control or maybe simply put, they could be actually just moving up pretty fast.
John Wright: Yeah. I think, look, it's a tricky one because gone are the days of someone 20 years, 30 years in one business and kind of following the whole path up. Also, if we look at our types of companies and the businesses that I support, the companies, a lot of them are in startup phase one year, three year, five year. I think too many three months, four months, five months is a red flag for me because obviously a Malta was six months probation that would show to me that maybe there were some potential performing. Challenges there. But I think the main thing is just to be very open with the candidates.
John Wright: If you're seeing these gaps, just to ask them, um, you know, we do get job poppers within the industry for sure. People leaving roles for a thousand extra euros. But I think that what you want to try and gain when you're having interviews with candidates is a feel for, you know, who they are as a person and also what motivates them. If they're motivated by a thousand extra, but you think that they're the right person for you, well, then maybe make them a more competitive author and also look at other benefits that you could tie in bonuses, um, company commission schemes.
John Wright: You know, these are also ways to be able to attract and retain people. I think also, you know, if we look at the industry as a whole, we've got a lot of movement businesses growing, shrinking all of the time. Sometimes John, people just get unlucky. Maybe they've been made redundant three times in a row. It's no reflection on them. It's just sometimes what happens.
John Wright: Yeah, I agree. Um, maybe another question I've got that I think might be on the minds of a lot of people in iGaming. Um, there's some people that they've got the 10 years experience in this specific industry, but sometimes I also believe that there's not a lot of people that also have the experience. So there's this philosophy that maybe you can find better people outside because my personal take on iGaming as a very specific industry is that there's been so much money made that I think a lot of people get complacent and they just think that they've all touched gold and they're, they're untouchable, they're, they're the best.
John Wright: And sometimes I find I can get hungry or people, or sometimes I actually even see like affiliate managers, for example, it's a being an affiliate. I know what I'm getting when I've got, you know, someone who's been an affiliate manager for 10 years, I would say it's a very small percent of the affiliate managers that have that much experience that they're actually good because they've, but then they've moved on up like pretty aggressively.
John Wright: What would you say about the state of this specific industry in that regard?
John Wright: I mean, I don't know many other industries where you get a 24 year old CEO on, you know, a hundred K plus.
John Wright: It just doesn't really happen. I think what people have to get better at doing, whether it's partnering with recruiters or the CEOs and founders are doing this is drilling more into what this person has been doing. There are many hugely inflated titles. You know, I see very often head of affiliates that have literally 10 months experience.
John Wright: So I think that the title should almost become the not important part when you're meeting with candidates, apart from, of course, that will
John Wright: massively highlight their salary expectations, but it's more about the specific things that they've been doing and being able to discuss measurable goals that they've been working against. I think that that's probably the easiest way to be able to decipher if somebody does have the level of experience that you need, because yeah, titles can be very confusing.
John Wright: Okay.
John Wright: One of the other questions I wrote down and we chatted about it was you weren't an advisor to Clovio for HR. So I wanted to ask about that experience and I want to tie it in with kind of like another question that like just thinks I'm thinking about where do you find that there's more demand from employees that are kind of going, maybe I can join a company where there's some sort of ESOP, there's an options program.
John Wright: What do you think in the marketplace?
John Wright: Yeah. So good questions. Um, yeah, I really enjoyed my time with Clovio with Sander working very closely with him and his senior leadership team. It was a really great opportunity to be able to discuss, uh, HR processes, policies, but also some initiatives. I got to meet with a lot of the team, which was fantastic. And just to be able to be there in their growth journey of offering some advice around like best practice. So yeah, that was really, really fun. Um, and then the second question was around. ESOP and like just employees looking to say, Hey, how can I get some skin in the game? Like I want to stay with your company for a couple of years, but if this
John Wright: thing kind of doesn't exit, like, you know, how do we like it, that's not for every company and not every company sets that up, but what's your take on both sides of the fence?
John Wright: So I think the main way for companies to stay competitive right now is to offer more of like a pick a mix approach. So, you know, offering the standard gym membership to everyone and three people out of 30 years, it it's a waste of a benefit. But what I have seen quite successful is that there's a total pool of funds and those then can be distributed. So if you then wanted to add your significant other, your children to your health insurance policy, for example, you could, and that would then come out of that pot when it comes to bonus schemes and commission schemes. No, I've seen only a couple done very well. And I've seen many, many done extremely badly that then lead to a
John Wright: real lack of motivation. Ultimately, it's your bonus scheme isn't possibly attainable. Don't bother.
John Wright: Just don't bother setting the team up to fail because, you know, two years, three years later and the company bonus scheme still isn't paid out. That's not great for anyone. Um, what I think works better is more ad hoc bonuses and most startups are probably more able to offer that where, you know, somebody does a great job and you give them a voucher. Somebody does a great job. You give them a couple of days extra holiday. These are benefits that of course cost things, but it's not so closely linked to revenue.
John Wright: Yeah, that makes sense. It's a, we're going through that experience now of going, okay, what do we do to attract talent? You know, we have, we've probably had more than our fair share of people that have asked for way more generous types of compensation, like 10% equity invested over time, I'm like, no, 10% is off limits. It's a, but I think, uh, I think, you know, I, I try to talk to different, um, startups and more importantly, investors as advisors and kind of going, what do you see in the marketplace? What's common or what should we do? Yeah. Yeah. I think it also depends the stage that businesses are at because if you
John Wright: start by being, by giving an extremely generous benefits offering and then you face challenging times, it's very difficult to then say, okay, all of the lovely things that we did have, we never have to stop. So I would really advise that startups start out slow, steady. And as you start to see the retention and, uh, this success of the team, that's when you can start to bring more things in. It's almost better to have a bare bones start and then you bring things in rather than having to take stuff away. Yeah. And that's why I think it goes without saying, you know, it's like any type of,
John Wright: uh, options or ESOP, you know, you want to have that typically vested over time. Yes. Sort of, uh, situations where that's been kind of vested on upfront. And then of course, you know how it is when it comes to like, you know, this whole work environment is like dating when things don't work as, as well as you thought it's a, you're in a situation where you're fighting for stuff and it's like, no, I have this, I have that. And then, um, yeah, all hell breaks loose. Yeah. And I often say to employees and to candidates we work with often the true measure of a business is not when you start, it's when you exit.
John Wright: That's when you really see the true colors of a company for good or for bad. That's when you really see. And I think that the industry is small enough that if people have a very bad exit based on some very often circumstances, totally out of their control. That then spreads and, you know, for company, uh, brand exposure, that's really not what you want. Yeah. Uh, lots of insights there. So we're coming to the end and we didn't really touch upon affiliate marketing, but I know you've worked for pretty big affiliate companies. So you might actually have a couple of answers there.
John Wright: And I actually think that a lot of the things you talk about as much as it's not really involved in business intelligence, it's kind of like, look, if your business go goes out of business, it's like, you kind of need these paper skills, the soft skills and everything you offer. So what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence?
John Wright: Well, I think one of the key things that I would say is around, uh, AI for sure, but also it's gaining and attracting great talent. This sits within affiliate marketing, of course, but also within gaming in general. I think being able to retain and hire top talent is something which all businesses will start to struggle with, but it's how you then can separate yourself. And I think by having a strong who and why that can really help to secure the best people possible, because, you know, you don't want somebody to be on the journey with you for three months. And then you decide that they're not right. Really.
John Wright: If you're making the agreement, you want them to join, they want to join. You want it to be a long-term partnership where, you know, both of you are getting rewarded along the way. Yeah. Uh, Cordelia, thank you so much for doing this. I got a lot of notes here. You've actually turned something that I personally thought is like kind of maybe not like a fun topic in the world of business, but I'm actually, there's so much value here, and I think this is probably a very underappreciated part of business that actually could be one of the more important parts, especially for startups. So how can people get ahold of you?
John Wright: So LinkedIn, uh, I think I lived there.
John Wright: Yeah. The power of LinkedIn has been amazing for me and for the business. Uh, yeah, LinkedIn conferences, uh, my team were attending most this year. I'll be attending some, uh, as I mentioned, uh, offline before we got on the call, I'm getting married next week. So things are getting very busy. Thank you. And, but I'm going to try and take at least a couple of weeks after the wedding to just reflect and reset.
John Wright: Awesome. I will include some links in the show notes. I thank you so much for doing this and I'm eager to wrap up the call to find out which companies are in the send in list.
John Wright: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
John Wright: Thank you for tuning in to the affiliate BI podcast. I'd like to take this time to ask for small favor, to leave a rating and review wherever you listen to your podcast. That helps us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more listeners.