SEO training with Dirk Schembri

the best companies that I have worked in the past and the ones as you can see succeed other ones were the high management even like from chairman SE level other ones that have quite Advanced SEO knowledge in place I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by stat strong welcome to the affiliate bi podcast today we're chatting with Dirk shambry who is his own boss with Dirk SEO and he's held senior SEO positions at Brook

leads fenio and Rik Tech Durk welcome to the show thank you John great being on board as well and looking forward to discussing the way the future of the the SEO world is planning out yeah so speaking of that is SEO dead and how's business going a very interesting question I've heard this saying for many years since the panda and and penguin days SEO has always been in touch but I think like with anything from ano perspective definitely not debt but it has changed drastically so

for people who are most quick to adapt and understand that they need to evolve with it would feel like they're dead and stuck it's like with anything if you stay doing the same thing over and over again with the changing things you're digging yourself a big hole there yeah we were just chatting before we were chatting just before recording and I told you it's like if I didn't have this Stone project I'd love to be an SEO today like the most volatile uh point in SEO

so I actually think there's a lot of people that maybe are they're scared and they think SEO is actually dead and the game's kind of changed or it's over but I think this is probably one of the biggest opportunities biggest opportunities ever absolutely especially with the introduction to AI as well and the way the rankings you can tell it's kind of Google example feeling on N because of all the DraStic core updates that are coming out I used to be a handful of updates per year

core updates now it's what month two it's almost crazy but again with AI I would say like things have simplified so much but with that simplification like with the advanced any technology comes that kind of drastic listen the knowledge base needs to increase to that as well so yeah where're you constantly needs to keep track as well of things as well but yeah it's an definitely interesting and challenging part of things as well so SEO is a big component of I gaming from the affiliate side

operator side B2B you name it I so I think it's actually one of the most maybe not well-known skills in the entire industry do you think more people should be learning this and I just think there's a lot of companies that they they're not even getting the max value or anywhere near the max value of SEO and I think what's getting in the way is people actually not understanding so they could bring it to the higher reps in their company and say hey let's invest a

bit more in SEO the best companies that I have worked in the past and the ones as you can see succeed other ones where the high management even like from chairman C Level are the ones that have quite Advanced SEO knowledge in play so they they actually do understand that you can see them reading and actually testing some those are the ones that really from my end always keep the on that people try to follow so from the case of SEO yes you do have to

always invest as well and there's always SEO is theread still people the search and mods are crazy there there's a reason why Google invests so much into making sure that from a search perspective it's still the the front runner in that end but yes I think one thing with the Ever Changing thing is the education and things educating your people at least from a fundamental point of view why this needs to be this way I think everyone working within say an affiliate the business in particular

as well needs to understand that things have changed and having a simple belob let's call it style of website is that is when people would say SEO is dead yes I know people that have bought for our gaming they would buy a video gaming a sports only related website fully adapt that to igaming and E exp loods in in revenue and traffic that kind of approach obviously is being picked on and the one thing that one needs to focus on is making it more organic in

the case that you don't only focus on SEO you need to focus on the brand of things you need to focus on the social aspect of things you need to come from many different angles at it uh to succeed nowadays do you think at least the long term yeah do you think newsletters are now an important thing that affiliate should do so for example the old way was the F comes on Google they click on a link they go to the operator great but most times

the fet actually hasn't captured any first-party data I I'm thinking that maybe the first- party data is actually more valuable because you can resell that user but that's also a signal in my opinion back to Google that Google's actually going hey there's real traffic coming from here they're not fully dependent on Google are is this very important yes keeping your retention based as high as possible is definitely what and yes in case of email example can be one way obviously you need to be more careful

with cookie base and GPR aspect of things but once you say settle those that's why you need again to have a a mailing list enabled on your website you to make sure you have social people as well want to hear from the latest bonuses so you want to make sure that your social channels don't just give in the the kind of obvious but you want to give special special aspects and special bonuses within your social aspect so you get people locked in there coming back from

that end as well so yes that's if you're just expecting people to search on Google and coming in from that way only yeah that's when the SEO dead topic is always highly discussed and what SEO tools are are in your your your toolbox so I am quite I like to stick with as small number as possible tool set so from my end yes I am an a user I'm not sponsored by them but with it ARF so Sam Rush is just adapted very great to using

arfs but in the case uh I was AI tools I don't use AI just generate playing content but to simplify my process so I make sure that AI has guides and Sops in it to simplify how an email is written how a certain um WordPress blog needs to be structured and make sure that the S so and my Workforce my people that that work with me have a certain standard and checklists so these are on when it comes to AI we just make sure that we

have a full set of checklists that AI would go in and verify that poses so from my end it's yeah arfs Google search console and very custom gpts that we've build and and make sure that they learn the new functionalities we want to go by with with anything we do whether it's creating video uploading content internal linking as well check checks sit Maps if there's an error on Google we have specific things that there's a specific errors in Google search console with the certain structure like

a bot that we keep on generating and ask what need to be done so that's where that's as far as my tool set will go and Google Sheets like crazy especially with AI I've it's incredible how easy it's become to create highly Advanced scripts and formulas within within Google Sheets or Google Docs yeah I feel like I'm missing a little bit in that area especially I've seen a lot of create their own Bots and use chat GPT for SEO analysis and basically building their own SEO

tool stat with it absolutely that's the beautiful thing you actually okay you have to use third parties or gather information but then once we get that information populate it into a GP and customize it for a specific site specific page specific Geo we do go down to that granula the results we're seeing are been majority positive as well and also it simplifies the process to work with your team we all work on a a share GPD so everyone is understanding what's going on so when we

put in new data it's being shared and we keep on generating the latest populated data within certain gbts and becoming scarly yeah scarly bright that's Co like that you mentioned before about branding as being an important thing in SEO how do you think a lot of companies in igaming are actually not understanding branding properly they think of branding as this is a logo this is a a good design and it stops there how is branding an important SEO metric SEO metric I think this goes down

into two ways whether you're an operator or even an affiliate again that's why I believe you have to build a sort of brand around that you have to make your name being recognizable whether it's the name of your company with specific tool does your company provide specific functionality you need to have that brand that once the search is done it is recognized with you as well in the case of say operators or even providers they they has to make sure that listen when you're building a

brand you have to protect the brand one thing that I know that people are making low hanging through easy money is by abusing other people's brand as you said people are not aware of how important their brand is so you find these SS practically they'll go in buy anything from a domain so you'll build it up to mimic a brand and it is honestly the quickest way to generate high volume very highly converting traffic from my experience and it's working it's still working with any updates

that come out so from even understanding how to use your brand is making sure you protect your brand that is just as important and one of the biggest businesses that I'm currently involved in as well because we have so many requests and it become quite difficult as they' become so so good at it these what if you want to call them kind of foreign entities that come in and start to take over your brand they're being very smart very quick to react as well from even

server location if you come in from a specific IP they know that you're trying to figure out certain things or they block it so yeah it's quite a nice challenge do you think the role of the head of product or product related roles have a weird direct correlation to SEO because if you're a product person you're basically like look I need a quality product I need users coming back I need all these metrics that matter and I think this actually translates to conversion rate optimization which

goes right back in SEO once you get any sort of in case of the product I believe that's from what my best experience people understand the product good people that come from an SEO background as well the amount of that creates and how the Simplicity into actually facilitating what is needed I would always recommend someone to have a certain level of of SEO knowledge in the case of yes brand and metrics when it comes to your end once we do our job from an SEO the

biggest thing is to use the tool sale whatever you to generate and see how to quickly convert these elements because you can have literally you did all the heavy lifting you're generating a certain amount of traffic just by understanding your main your main your main kpis um and sometimes it's not possible to build these things in house so that's why tools are out there as well to simplify your make apis and understand what these are literally just with simple negotiations you can be making 10 20%

in an instant like that but you do have to have obviously certain amount of the leverage to then to negotiate that yeah I actually think that a lot of product people would make good SEO people rather than a good SEO person becoming product because it's what we talked about before recording is that what's SEO what's it been for a long time people like making the quick Buck we always want to do that everywhere but I think the SEO game has changed where we're now basically in

this full quality mode so it's like what is Quality quality is product and I think when you start saying how do I make sure that this is a better user experience like it goes full circle to what Google's trying to do with this let's make content helpful absolutely and this goes hand in hand with the brand When You're Building a product you're practically build building a brand so that's why I feel that they need to go hand in hand even if it's affiliation where you're just

trying to be that middle man website you have to understand that you do have to build you have to focus on building a brand as well don't just focus on the ranking a c part of things see how you're going to build that brand make your brand recognition recognize so I know it takes more investment maybe harder to sell to to higher ups but they need to understand if you here for the long term obviously should be everyone's approach you need to invest and as you're

saying making it a real product from even Google's perspective because they they recognize they don't want anyone speaking about something they they don't want the parasite to call the websites they want to have real users come in and having a real genuinely good experience and finding what they actually searched actually searched actually searched for so you mentioned about back in the old days we had Panda and Penguin updates which it actually lost us a lot of Affiliates that we're actually doing pretty well and with helpful

content update we're seeing I think the same thing over again um without naming any affiliate sites and I'm sure you find these things in h reps where it's like oh they're not doing so well um what advice would you have to some of these companies that maybe this is like their last chance to fix it otherwise they might actually have to exit their business one thing that us recovered recently quite a large website would be taking a step back as we said you've had a website

that generated huge amount of volume from multiple GEOS and you was say being clamped drastically take a step back filter out if you're providing your services to 20 different languages filter that up back drastically put it into one two main GEOS it sounds very risky but we've seen one really good result and we're in the currently doing another process and we're really seeing positive results making sure you have 400,000 pages and honestly majority of them will probably not bring in any value either remove the index

completely for for them don't just redirect them don't think you're going to you don't want to waste anything so you're redirecting don't be scared to cut off certain things like any aspect sometimes you need to cut off to eventually grow more and I feel that's one thing as well even from content point of view we will all been used to those six 10,000 word my God casino bonus articles drastically pull those down make sure you don't overdo your converting elements above the fold where it can

be annoying go straight to the point and don't be too scared to keep it a bit more smaller at this current point because yeah the people just want the results keep the fluff maybe for later on down the line do you think that maybe like I believe this could be true or it is true that sites that had maybe too many calls to action are distracting like Affiliates have been focused on sales and if it works that's great but I'm wondering if this is actually a

an important thing where the sales might actually turn people off and Google's basically look at people are turned off I know that people are turned on by other pages that have less like blasted call to action do you think Affiliates need to cut it back on the tracking links as one way of trying to optimize their pages and sit again if the option someone comes in for a very again I talk about specific bonus and you want to don't provide the whole hundred list of operators

within blasted there make sure you give above the fold you give at least the top ones but then I know people want to show it's more having honestly the really the Conant template I think approach so say you have your 50 operators and you're just plasting that on every page make sure every page is customized that you're only showing the main operators that convert don't just show 100 take the top five top 10 at the end of the day those are the ones that will should

generate the most Revenue so right now I would cut it a bit less as well but from a Content as well not only from CDA just don't have content just because every page requires 6 10,000 words take away the plus definitely one thing I would recommend so do you think sales could be getting in the way of this where the sales managers look I've got these 10 listings I've already sold them for the next year I don't want to change the structure because it's almost like

the second you take away the sales power that person's pissed off within that organization it's you got to I think the industry has been growing on the sales part as a component of the affiliate section what do you think about how sales is needs to be I think if you're seeing negative results and you can't stop the bleeding you have to think yourself am I just going to keep on because I have that sales agreement for the year going to eventually bleed me dry or am

I going to make sure that I have that good relationship with the operator and explain to them listen this is the situation this is how we have to pull things back until we get our feedback and make sure that we get the traffic that initially we actually promise you it's obviously keeping things up to date but you I think you do have to be that kind of not evil but you have to be honest and take that step back because otherwise people are you just going

to dig yourself a grave I do believe that and again cleaning up has significantly you can see significant improvements I don't know anyone who says oh yeah I added 5,000 more words I've added more topl list and my ranking has exploded I've never heard that so more top yes this is when you're seeing damage if things are steady and good just don't overdo it cuz then don't see that huge sudden dip where an update comes in and just trashes you but I would be very wary

into overdoing it what would you say as advice for some of the slot sites that are actually trending down in rankings because not all slot sites are are going down some are actually going up but for the ones that seem to be in a freef fall and I'm sure you've looked at these sites what would you advise them to to do to Pivot to regain or at least maintain what they've they've they've got I always check again the brand name I think one thing that comes

into play is let's call them whatever the the name within your domain has always been a an important part and see how that is being kind of influenced with your competitors do competitor research see what the top three competitors how they've actually been affected in this and you have to understand and figure out like what differences is yours between the top three competitors not only from an on page off page and not from an SEO yeah to see what are they doing from a a brand

from a social from maybe they have telegram as well coming in I know that's in some markets very highly attractive and converting elements are are really significant in those fields as well so you has to look even outside the SEO aspect of things as well even from back links you don't just go and build blog posts you have to be more creative making sure you get put the PRS in place uh making sure you get the the social viral boost aspect that's one topic that is

is really being um discussed and and highly demanded for right now and would you say when it comes to link building that Affiliates need to also apply that same quality concept and branding concept all the way into link building and no more trash links absolutely no as trash links for a money side scares the Liv hell of even from my end there there tier tier one tier two tier three like anyone doing the3 I think is a waste of time and money nowadays cuz they're pure

junk just don't even consider it's a waste of time just even trying to know disab such things because they're they bring zero value to it I see sites as are 90 plus Dr on ARS so from someone with experience would be wow but if you look into deep there' be literally like Beyond crap it has to be very selective as well but again I do understand that they are still very important off page is as important I think as any time in the SEO history as

well is just you have to focus on quality rather than quantity for sure and this even like the anchor ratio backing is coming in that's why the brand is significantly important if you're focusing on the brand you should always include your brand within your anchor to make it look more targeted towards you as well so this is what what I mean when it comes to to building a brand as well you don't just go best know deposit bonus boom keep it like that that's the most

obvious make sure that there's a brand integration in there as well yeah it's an interesting discussion because I recorded a friend Sharia Jane who does bit more B2B SEO and he was saying two things that he notices that sites that rank well they have these weird quality metrics like they're just a little bit faster they spend a bit more on different types of tools they invest more in the site and he basically said he finds that there's a correlation when it comes to link building as

well you know what a link Farm looks like what does a link Farm not have they don't have social signals they would never have a podcast they're not going to have an actual company footer they're not going to have a lot of real people so I'm just thinking out loud that not only do you have to build the quality site but the links actually have to have that weird that weird that weird component and this is something as you said you cannot fake if you're you're

a company and you have 100 employees you can't really say 100 real accounts on LinkedIn linking back to you as a company these are sort of things that we we take for granted but I do believe that day they do bring in the uh the kind of increase eventually not only from an SEO perspective so yes definitely in the case of podcast you can't really fake that yeah if you don't fake I Don't Know audio then that's going to show up I don't know what it's

going to go down you don't going to have any views so it would make sense to them what what is junk and what is not but yes these sort of things again they do require time there's no really short cutting to it so that's why people are finding it different while we're creates to try to automate the simplest thing with little f you there needs to be a sort of esset that needs to be Ai and content as our job going away no it can go

away because you always need to have that person to take in charge of what's going on in maneuver you can have know factories that are mainly automated but you always have to have a supervisory person there because if it goes to crap one thing the whole thing goes so yeah that's where things are as well I think the rudimentary old um jobs we call them are going away but it's seating in the past with humans it has to adapt to that as well would you say

that there's a a massive untapped potential in let's say the streaming space because when we look at with streamers are they bring in a different audience they have the stickiness of their channels because it's not just they're not just SEO they're like they're being followed on YouTube twitch maybe Telegram and I'm just thinking that these are interesting assets like you it's almost like you could build the SEO value around someone like that rather than the other way which is okay let's start with the fing side

and then let's Maybe add streaming which I still think is a great idea but maybe that could be an a new Avenue for operators and affili to say hey streaming is basically a huge Gateway it definitely is but as you said I think it's very obvious if you're an SEO adapt with of a company website and you start putting in streaming you're just trying to enhance what I did in this case is you either come from the streaming and build it up from the SEO the

other way around or else you find another partner and you manage get it those are the best ones best result because I matter how much you invest sometimes you don't have the right you're not targeting the Right audience you're not targeting the right content you can be spending it tons though but you still be missing the the target so that's why I think this is where good collaboration comes into play because I think as you said if you're good in SEO and you Tred to get

the streamers in of I think of H in two or three previous companies where we tried it and unfortunately it never panned out and we built a studio to start streaming and start start start but still it shows that it's not authentic people go into these and start following these streamers because it's it's all authentic people come in and they're actually genuinely interested because this guy's genuinely interested in doing what he's doing but when it's forced I think the majority of the time it's it's very

risky yeah I'm probably going to get in trouble if anyone's actually listening to this part but it's like I remember ESP ESPN bet was doing a show and it was like they actually put a lot of production into it but it was like they're all talking about odds I mean it was all going up on YouTube when I watch this I'm like this is just overly produced odds like it was actually it it had the max value from a production point of view but from an

entertainment point point of view I'm like I don't want to follow this like I'm disconnected and I just look at that and go yeah like I said I'm going to get in trouble I'm like who's behind this it's what you just said is the the right part people want the authentic people and I think that's either difficult to do cuz you need someone who's not managing you and saying know I need this produced exactly this way like it's a little too little too little too robotic

and again just because you have the ultra fany studio recording studio doesn't fan out people that I follow both on YouTube podcasts and stuff are people who just do it from their home with their mobile with little as thank you there go those are the people that eventually they start off and grow it then grow it to whatever it needs to be okay but rather than that I think that's why if you're an affiliate or a c anything with in the I gaming try and collaborate

with other streamers or YouTubers building it from fresh least from my experience has never find out positive and never worth the investment it's a bit sad but it makes sense when you look at who's successful in the slot space it's not easy to say let's just copy these recipes it's like you got big wi board with a lot of user generated content you got about slots which uh they pivoted to streaming and video quite some time and then Casino grounds they've been pretty streamer video friendly

for quite some time it's a a long time yes yes absolutely absolutely and again like with the to four of things but it is very important you do need to uh spread from just the organic traffic point of view so you do need these streamer so somehow you do need to collab if you want to compete against an ESPN again bet you want to compete against that you have to see how you're going to collaborate with someone else to bring in that alternative traffic to it

yeah I touched upon this before with the previous question about can Opera take advantage of SEO because of Google's giving more in my opinion attention to products but what is a product the casino is a product the sports book and poker is a product so I think they have a big opportunity but I don't see them taking advantage of it yet is this just because again management doesn't understand SEO what do they need to do to tap into this because some of the most successful igaming

operations today I think they're just you've seen HS you've seen their data for at 365 in state they're just running away with this what's going on here there's always the longevity part of things as well I think the education on things is making sure you educate your in housing tal people that as you say just because example they're pay back to sales they do need to understand certain aspects of example SEO in this case so education is one thing as well and making sure you're bring

up the correct the the correct stre don't to build a ladder onto a wall and get to the end of it and realize it's not the right one so that's one approach as well just just because you're chasing slots in UK and whatever doesn't mean that same exact approach is going to go into Australia where it's completely different pokei is the way they treat things PO is the main thing so you you need to get people to understand that Niche within that specific G as well

just to example go into that aspect that's one thing Australia is a very par or New Zealand is a very particular region as well where it is okay no deposit balls but the Pokey aspect is I the largest compared to other slots market so from that aspect yes education is very important I think so let's pretend I'm like a C Level exact it doesn't matter affiliate or operator I want to learn SEO how are you teaching me how much time do I need what does this

look this look this look like so the first thing I need to understand is your current in-house team what the current project projects are what the website is what yourr expectation a are I will start building it from there as well so don't understand if you come in with a little site that has a little attaction and you were to go up against Monsters within New Zealand what to be a bit more realistic but if for example listen you have you have one Junior SEO guy

taking care of your website and you want to compete get against the 365 in this case uh then when to come in educate listen you either want to hire external consultants in this case or build up a team in this way as well and again with SEO SEO SEO unfortunately it is never a Sprint so it's not paid where you're going to pump in a specific amount and you expect to see see the results instantly I have projects where we put in six close to nine

months the client is getting edgy and then all of a sudden that Spike comes in that's when you're pulling out you're pumping you trying to pump water out of something that asset is significant but once it is streamlined in then you start to see the the rewards there so it is it's a patience game that's one thing I to understand you need to be patient what have a timeline in place and yes making sure you have the correct work Workforce and together with the workforce make

sure you have the structures the Sops the guide the importance of Sops and guides nowadays with AI I think is the most crucial people think I have ai it can create this form making sure that you're using it to have all your Sops to educate to make things easy for people who are not as experts experts but they can ensure that they're verifying and and picking off all the boxes that an SEO expert would can force it with with AI as well so I think there's

a demand for an i gaming SEO course for different types of people within the industry definitely it depends again on your how strong your brand is always if you have a very strong brand you still need SEO because you need to protect that brand so whatever it is I think SEO is definit you have to come at it from all aspects so say you have best 365 you need to protect your brand okay you have your legal aspect but you don't want someone coming in and

buying certain domains exact match domains that will make it very easy for them to even three months of huge damage for you so what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence Market is definitely something with tracking so in the case of making sure that tool like yours I'll be honest as well is significant significantly helpful once you get the ranking in place so that's a kind of second part where it's vital to have something like that but initially

the importance of literally build your brand making sure that your brand is there you have the correct domains domain names in place as well that's one thing that I always find that skeptical if it's you starting from a scratch just don't start from scratch so how to do not to start from scratch unless you have a good yeah nine months or nine months to a year of money to burn but in case of Affiliates as well don't do the classic of old block type of things

I hate that block post kind of expression make sure that you're just there to provide direct answers and making sure that the structure is linked for a user to come in and genuinely convert them you have to build for a user as much as you're building for a search engine don't just focus on the search engine yeah I think maybe there's uh some chats we can do after this call it's with your answer it's like we have some customers where we're merging some of their data

into a centralized database so it's data it's search console it's Google analytics and in some other cases in the PPC space we're doing like Google Facebook ads combining with their click data coming in from tools like volume and Kitaro I just think the amount of data that can go in a central place is immense and to give you one more further Insight there's a company that we talked to we mentioned before about this whole m&a acquisition stuff they basically said they saw a future vision of

Staff Stone where everything came in search console came in and Google analytics came in I think there's a demand for this dashboard but it's about making sense of this dashboard as well exactly I think one thing that an old this your friend of mine is always state is falling it's that analysis paralysis point of view where you're end up with that's why I hate having too many tools too much data because you end up having the absorbed amount of of data coming in but what the

hell am I going to do with it yeah you know so it's worthless it's almost as good as having nothing so this is good goes back to make sure you step back and make sure the analysis or whatever statistics that you have coming in see that you're tracking the correct ones the correct kpi take a step back and start to segment very specific stuff because again let's collect this but again how are you going to convert how are you going to know what's working and this

is case one thing that comes to mind now is when someone is hit with a Google update let's change everything on the website let's change this like listen quickly one thing you're not sure so start doing small Chang incremental changes I understand sometimes obviously can be very nerve-wracking when Revenue traffic is going down the board is screaming at you but there has to be that understanding that there is you you might be doing much more damage if you're just changing 10 20 things that's one go

what wasn't that works you'll never know you can actually cause more damage eventually yeah I'm guilty of the analysis paralysis I've had that for a long time in SEO I know enough just from talking to smart people like like you on this podcast and yeah I had one guy he's like all right let's just sit down for an hour and we're going to give you you're just going to do these steps and then when I follow the steps I had success so it's funny that it's

it's what you said earlier not a lot of people have a long-term vision and patience is probably the the biggest pain point out of everything I think that was that was the previous company I get enough to mention names where it was more of a churn and burn approach but there was a Structure there was say three months this certain amount had to be made Within this but then once that skipped it's expected that something bad can but we know that Revenue was made this time

is over by then that's an approach yes it can be a very dangerous approach but you have to if that's your approach then okay you have to be super aggressive super black hat whatever you need to do but you have to understand it's either one or the other you can't have them both you can't be a sprinter and expect to do am Marathon unfortunately we're it's Clos right now so no matter the amount of money eventually just if you just have more money eventually what You'

be doing is just wasting more money and just if you succeed it's going to be very hard to understand what was the succeeding factor I think what people maybe misunderstand about that aggressive short-term game is there's still discipline behind it it's absolutely it's a different honestly it's a different approach it's like see but the approach is totally different you can't expect to buy or see how to gain back back links naturally progressively no there's one way listen there's these amount of things that need to be

done and executed within the shortest some time possible with adding SEO to make it look as natural as possible so if you get 100 a th000 back links a month you have to keep that kind of speed going constantly to make it look as As Natural as possible so yeah that's why these things have to be a bit pre-planned and with FCO you have to have the longer the long game term within the pipeline and that's what's hard to hard to hard to pitch to CEOs

who don't understand it or to shareholders who are there to provide money they're not expected to understand but that's where I need to come in or you need to come in to make them understand that this is it and do that by seeing what the competitor is doing and if you look deeper you can see some sites that they come in within a month and they just Spike up and like how did they do that yeah but listen that they had this other two other brands

they redirected their brand they pushed their own social traffic to this brand there's lots of hidden things which are not as easily exposed was you just see the A's graph it went from zero the next month to 60,000 whoa how can we replicate that but yeah it's the little things as well that from experience that that would come into play Durk thank you so much for doing this I want to pass it back to you to ask how can people get a hold of you absolutely

the best way is to go through my uh LinkedIn and check for my profile or else yeah just DK vsco.com and just contact me like that because yeah LinkedIn is the easiest way and you can get that in show notes Dirk thank you so much for doing this thank John thank you very much I look forward to having any further discussions in the future thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to

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