A data driven iGaming affiliate platform: ReferOn

AI over just the last seven months has AI over just the last seven months has been crazy in general Society

been crazy in general Society been crazy in general Society apply that to affiliate programs you'll

apply that to affiliate programs you'll apply that to affiliate programs you'll be laughing you can see profitability

be laughing you can see profitability be laughing you can see profitability you can see forecasted uh rates of churn

you can see forecasted uh rates of churn you can see forecasted uh rates of churn by players you can see oh maybe this

by players you can see oh maybe this by players you can see oh maybe this deal has been applied to this Market

deal has been applied to this Market deal has been applied to this Market what's the average all this stuff

what's the average all this stuff what's the average all this stuff I mean this all comes to the vague term

I mean this all comes to the vague term I mean this all comes to the vague term of business intelligence what does that of business intelligence what does that of business intelligence what does that mean it's looking at data and making

mean it's looking at data and making mean it's looking at data and making smart choices okay so if any of these

smart choices okay so if any of these smart choices okay so if any of these programs start doing AI internet they'll

programs start doing AI internet they'll programs start doing AI internet they'll be top of the pile instantly because

be top of the pile instantly because be top of the pile instantly because that's where people want to be you want

that's where people want to be you want that's where people want to be you want to look at instant business decisions

to look at instant business decisions to look at instant business decisions with your data

with your data with your data you're listening to affiliate bi the

you're listening to affiliate bi the you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate business intelligence and affiliate business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast with John Wright

marketing podcast with John Wright marketing podcast with John Wright brought to you by statsro

brought to you by statsro brought to you by statsro so welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I

so welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I so welcome to the affiliate bi podcast I got two special guests here with me uh

got two special guests here with me uh got two special guests here with me uh David Harris and Vlad bondarenko from

David Harris and Vlad bondarenko from David Harris and Vlad bondarenko from refer on and I'm going to start off by

refer on and I'm going to start off by refer on and I'm going to start off by asking a question which will give you a

asking a question which will give you a asking a question which will give you a chance to introduce yourselves but I met

chance to introduce yourselves but I met chance to introduce yourselves but I met both of you at the ice conference in

both of you at the ice conference in both of you at the ice conference in London earlier this year and I saw

London earlier this year and I saw London earlier this year and I saw something about a new affiliate program something about a new affiliate program something about a new affiliate program software which got me excited because I

software which got me excited because I software which got me excited because I mean that's what we do we connect with

mean that's what we do we connect with mean that's what we do we connect with all the different platforms I got a

all the different platforms I got a all the different platforms I got a chance to see a demo and listening to

chance to see a demo and listening to chance to see a demo and listening to both of you talk got me excited because

both of you talk got me excited because both of you talk got me excited because I knew you weren't building just another

I knew you weren't building just another I knew you weren't building just another affiliate software so tell us what you

affiliate software so tell us what you affiliate software so tell us what you do and let's talk about how this

do and let's talk about how this do and let's talk about how this conversation got started at London

conversation got started at London conversation got started at London okay I'll go first so hi I'm David

okay I'll go first so hi I'm David okay I'll go first so hi I'm David um I'm a affiliate program Tech lead and

um I'm a affiliate program Tech lead and um I'm a affiliate program Tech lead and I've kind of been doing this position I've kind of been doing this position I've kind of been doing this position for

for for quite recently six months but I was a

quite recently six months but I was a quite recently six months but I was a senior before that so two years in all

senior before that so two years in all senior before that so two years in all um and Vlad and I have kind of been um and Vlad and I have kind of been um and Vlad and I have kind of been building the product for about two years

building the product for about two years building the product for about two years prior to that I

prior to that I prior to that I um had about four years prior to that in

um had about four years prior to that in um had about four years prior to that in the eye gaming Market actually in from

the eye gaming Market actually in from the eye gaming Market actually in from based in Malta

based in Malta based in Malta and um yeah that's kind of where we got

and um yeah that's kind of where we got and um yeah that's kind of where we got started I got involved in this company

started I got involved in this company started I got involved in this company and then Vlad joined my side and we

and then Vlad joined my side and we and then Vlad joined my side and we built it on then Moon yeah

built it on then Moon yeah built it on then Moon yeah my name is Vlad and I'm working for

my name is Vlad and I'm working for my name is Vlad and I'm working for referendum yes it was Dave for two years

referendum yes it was Dave for two years referendum yes it was Dave for two years already in this field of sphere I'm

already in this field of sphere I'm already in this field of sphere I'm about six years already and I was

about six years already and I was about six years already and I was affiliate manager I was affiliate

affiliate manager I was affiliate affiliate manager I was affiliate program manager I was a team lead having

program manager I was a team lead having program manager I was a team lead having a team with six people now I am a

a team with six people now I am a a team with six people now I am a product manager of marketing and the new

product manager of marketing and the new product manager of marketing and the new product referon so something like that

product referon so something like that product referon so something like that awesome so I mean the next part of the

awesome so I mean the next part of the awesome so I mean the next part of the question is I mean I already know this

question is I mean I already know this question is I mean I already know this answer but why why would you say refer

answer but why why would you say refer answer but why why would you say refer on is going to be a Sears player in this

on is going to be a Sears player in this on is going to be a Sears player in this uh interesting affiliate marketing or

uh interesting affiliate marketing or uh interesting affiliate marketing or affiliate program software space

affiliate program software space affiliate program software space uh let me start Dave I think this is

uh let me start Dave I think this is uh let me start Dave I think this is yeah you can take this bigger question

yeah you can take this bigger question yeah you can take this bigger question for me in the way that y generally

for me in the way that y generally for me in the way that y generally reference uh we have started with

reference uh we have started with reference uh we have started with referral I don't want to start with the

referral I don't want to start with the referral I don't want to start with the obvious details about the platform

obvious details about the platform obvious details about the platform features or whatever the direction we

features or whatever the direction we features or whatever the direction we are moving uh more about site functional

are moving uh more about site functional are moving uh more about site functional aspects we will speak further but in my

aspects we will speak further but in my aspects we will speak further but in my opinion the industry of affiliate

opinion the industry of affiliate opinion the industry of affiliate management still relies on the some

management still relies on the some management still relies on the some outdated practices from 80s 90s whatever

outdated practices from 80s 90s whatever outdated practices from 80s 90s whatever I by the way remember your post about

I by the way remember your post about I by the way remember your post about apis uh John and the analogies with the

apis uh John and the analogies with the apis uh John and the analogies with the movie The Goonies so it's really clear

movie The Goonies so it's really clear movie The Goonies so it's really clear there is a press in needs for like

there is a press in needs for like there is a press in needs for like comprehensive overhaul especially

comprehensive overhaul especially comprehensive overhaul especially concerning the reporting capabilities

concerning the reporting capabilities concerning the reporting capabilities overall friendliness of the system

overall friendliness of the system overall friendliness of the system generally of the sphere and the main

generally of the sphere and the main generally of the sphere and the main goal from my point of view is to

goal from my point of view is to goal from my point of view is to encourage a fair uh competition in this

encourage a fair uh competition in this encourage a fair uh competition in this market generally speaking as the

market generally speaking as the market generally speaking as the industry keeps changing and new

industry keeps changing and new industry keeps changing and new platforms new systems come up often this

platforms new systems come up often this platforms new systems come up often this is like pushing technology forward in

is like pushing technology forward in is like pushing technology forward in this field and I want to be uh like at

this field and I want to be uh like at this field and I want to be uh like at the Forefront of this competition and we

the Forefront of this competition and we the Forefront of this competition and we believe that the healthy competition believe that the healthy competition believe that the healthy competition motivates us constantly to improve

motivates us constantly to improve motivates us constantly to improve ourselves to innovate ourselves and this

ourselves to innovate ourselves and this ourselves to innovate ourselves and this like can benefit both parties operators

like can benefit both parties operators like can benefit both parties operators and Affiliates and also we are quite new

and Affiliates and also we are quite new and Affiliates and also we are quite new to the market believe me we have just

to the market believe me we have just to the market believe me we have just implemented only about 10 of all the

implemented only about 10 of all the implemented only about 10 of all the features all the plan functionality

features all the plan functionality features all the plan functionality however the interesting part of that

however the interesting part of that however the interesting part of that that this 10 of all the feature uh

that this 10 of all the feature uh that this 10 of all the feature uh already surpassed in some cases like

already surpassed in some cases like already surpassed in some cases like features which supported in the marginal

features which supported in the marginal features which supported in the marginal just default in the market yeah and this

just default in the market yeah and this just default in the market yeah and this 10 I think should have been standard and

10 I think should have been standard and 10 I think should have been standard and default for uh everyone as the best

default for uh everyone as the best default for uh everyone as the best practices in this field especially in

practices in this field especially in practices in this field especially in terms of user interface convenience

terms of user interface convenience terms of user interface convenience reporting a API Dynamic variable this is

reporting a API Dynamic variable this is reporting a API Dynamic variable this is kind of trigger words for everyone so

kind of trigger words for everyone so kind of trigger words for everyone so this is how reference has been started

this is how reference has been started this is how reference has been started why we are doing this and something like

why we are doing this and something like why we are doing this and something like that this my thoughts on those just to

that this my thoughts on those just to that this my thoughts on those just to add to that both of us came from a bit

add to that both of us came from a bit add to that both of us came from a bit of a technical background and both of us

of a technical background and both of us of a technical background and both of us knew the market from a technical knew the market from a technical knew the market from a technical affiliate manager but also we have you

affiliate manager but also we have you affiliate manager but also we have you know backup behind us on affiliation we

know backup behind us on affiliation we know backup behind us on affiliation we speak to affiliate Managers from

speak to affiliate Managers from speak to affiliate Managers from different operators as well not just

different operators as well not just different operators as well not just kind of the ones we are close to so we

kind of the ones we are close to so we kind of the ones we are close to so we understood and did a bit of due understood and did a bit of due understood and did a bit of due diligence on what was needed and the

diligence on what was needed and the diligence on what was needed and the days that Vlad and I did backlog

days that Vlad and I did backlog days that Vlad and I did backlog prioritizations went on for hours for

prioritizations went on for hours for prioritizations went on for hours for what was needed what wasn't what wasn't

what was needed what wasn't what wasn't what was needed what wasn't what wasn't what can we push and we've tried to make

what can we push and we've tried to make what can we push and we've tried to make it quite transparent with up to the end

it quite transparent with up to the end it quite transparent with up to the end of the year with features coming up and

of the year with features coming up and of the year with features coming up and then next for next year we're going to

then next for next year we're going to then next for next year we're going to have to do the same kind of long have to do the same kind of long have to do the same kind of long meetings together to do another

meetings together to do another meetings together to do another assessment of those so we do try to make

assessment of those so we do try to make assessment of those so we do try to make it transparent we understand it's not as

it transparent we understand it's not as it transparent we understand it's not as we've just said 10 and we've got our

we've just said 10 and we've got our we've just said 10 and we've got our loads to come we understand it's hasn't

loads to come we understand it's hasn't loads to come we understand it's hasn't got everything but we are working on it

got everything but we are working on it got everything but we are working on it by the way Dave I just recently read the

by the way Dave I just recently read the by the way Dave I just recently read the article from my CEO of Shopify and I

article from my CEO of Shopify and I article from my CEO of Shopify and I like the idea how he told like great

like the idea how he told like great like the idea how he told like great products are built by tinkering and

products are built by tinkering and products are built by tinkering and adjustment not just by strategic though

adjustment not just by strategic though adjustment not just by strategic though and those Southern biggest longest

and those Southern biggest longest and those Southern biggest longest documents that we have written with you

documents that we have written with you documents that we have written with you we still I think uh build not exactly

we still I think uh build not exactly we still I think uh build not exactly what we have written down but something

what we have written down but something what we have written down but something else and this is a nice part of the work

else and this is a nice part of the work else and this is a nice part of the work building new products this is what

building new products this is what building new products this is what happens blood doesn't release every two

happens blood doesn't release every two happens blood doesn't release every two weeks I write documentation which goes

weeks I write documentation which goes weeks I write documentation which goes out of date in two weeks so it's a so

out of date in two weeks so it's a so out of date in two weeks so it's a so it's a relativity process

it's a relativity process it's a relativity process yeah I feel that pain I've got a

yeah I feel that pain I've got a yeah I feel that pain I've got a customer for our software like do you

customer for our software like do you customer for our software like do you have a document for this I'm like we're

have a document for this I'm like we're have a document for this I'm like we're about to redesign everything in we're

about to redesign everything in we're about to redesign everything in we're adding new features all the time but I

adding new features all the time but I adding new features all the time but I think the thing that for me stood out

think the thing that for me stood out think the thing that for me stood out when I talked to both of you in uh in

when I talked to both of you in uh in when I talked to both of you in uh in London and also recent with you David London and also recent with you David London and also recent with you David and Amsterdam was you it's not just the

and Amsterdam was you it's not just the and Amsterdam was you it's not just the experience you have on the tech side but

experience you have on the tech side but experience you have on the tech side but you really take this uh product driven

you really take this uh product driven you really take this uh product driven like product owner type of growth and

like product owner type of growth and like product owner type of growth and it's something that I can relate to and it's something that I can relate to and it's something that I can relate to and what we have to do and I think that's

what we have to do and I think that's what we have to do and I think that's probably what's going to give you an probably what's going to give you an probably what's going to give you an edge in terms of like there's a lot of edge in terms of like there's a lot of edge in terms of like there's a lot of competition here like there's no competition here like there's no competition here like there's no shortage of options of people going what

shortage of options of people going what shortage of options of people going what affiliate software am I going to use to

affiliate software am I going to use to affiliate software am I going to use to power our operation but um I I found

power our operation but um I I found power our operation but um I I found that refreshing and when you say 10 that

that refreshing and when you say 10 that that refreshing and when you say 10 that that's all you have right now and you

that's all you have right now and you that's all you have right now and you already have an amazing product I I

already have an amazing product I I already have an amazing product I I actually believe uh you do have like

actually believe uh you do have like actually believe uh you do have like another 90 to go and I find that really

another 90 to go and I find that really another 90 to go and I find that really exciting exciting exciting believe me the backlog is long

good good yeah I mean look it's not a good good yeah I mean look it's not a case of we're coming into this with one

case of we're coming into this with one case of we're coming into this with one competitor everyone knows there's so

competitor everyone knows there's so competitor everyone knows there's so many out there and

many out there and many out there and it's we're not doing this by ourselves

it's we're not doing this by ourselves it's we're not doing this by ourselves as well there are other programs trying as well there are other programs trying as well there are other programs trying to burst into the market share as well

to burst into the market share as well to burst into the market share as well and as Vlad said a healthy competition

and as Vlad said a healthy competition and as Vlad said a healthy competition makes for a healthy product okay

makes for a healthy product okay makes for a healthy product okay otherwise becomes stagnant but as you

otherwise becomes stagnant but as you otherwise becomes stagnant but as you kind of kind of Lent to we do try to

kind of kind of Lent to we do try to kind of kind of Lent to we do try to take pride in a bit of affiliate

take pride in a bit of affiliate take pride in a bit of affiliate feedback a bit of our own feedback

feedback a bit of our own feedback feedback a bit of our own feedback because we kind of get this on a daily

because we kind of get this on a daily because we kind of get this on a daily basis to say oh this is annoying oh can

basis to say oh this is annoying oh can basis to say oh this is annoying oh can you make this better we understand you make this better we understand you make this better we understand software always has bugs you know

software always has bugs you know software always has bugs you know software it's made by humans you're

software it's made by humans you're software it's made by humans you're going to get errors but as we develop

going to get errors but as we develop going to get errors but as we develop features it becomes you know a web and

features it becomes you know a web and features it becomes you know a web and as that builds up it's important to

as that builds up it's important to as that builds up it's important to understand of this is a product oriented

understand of this is a product oriented understand of this is a product oriented strategy and this is a client feedback

strategy and this is a client feedback strategy and this is a client feedback strategy and we need to make sure we

strategy and we need to make sure we strategy and we need to make sure we prioritize accordingly but that's what

prioritize accordingly but that's what prioritize accordingly but that's what we're doing we did workshops before it

we're doing we did workshops before it we're doing we did workshops before it went live we've done feedback sessions

went live we've done feedback sessions went live we've done feedback sessions already with loads who are live and

already with loads who are live and already with loads who are live and we're kind of collecting that we're kind of collecting that we're kind of collecting that information kind of re-jigging some of

information kind of re-jigging some of information kind of re-jigging some of this stuff which still hasn't been this stuff which still hasn't been this stuff which still hasn't been released as of yet but it's ones that we

released as of yet but it's ones that we released as of yet but it's ones that we prioritized already

prioritized already prioritized already guys we need revolution in this field

guys we need revolution in this field guys we need revolution in this field this is for sure I'm not sure if we will

this is for sure I'm not sure if we will this is for sure I'm not sure if we will start this revolution but in any way

start this revolution but in any way start this revolution but in any way this should be started you're a

this should be started you're a this should be started you're a Ukrainian just simmer it down a bit on

Ukrainian just simmer it down a bit on Ukrainian just simmer it down a bit on the revolutions okay

yeah no I I fully agree it's I think yeah no I I fully agree it's I think with what's happening you know with what's happening you know with what's happening you know especially in our space I think this

especially in our space I think this especially in our space I think this actually ties in perfectly to my next actually ties in perfectly to my next actually ties in perfectly to my next question because you've already hinted question because you've already hinted question because you've already hinted that there's a bit of staleness in the

that there's a bit of staleness in the that there's a bit of staleness in the space and so I want to take a few steps

space and so I want to take a few steps space and so I want to take a few steps back and talk about the state of the

back and talk about the state of the back and talk about the state of the industry today in relation to the Gap we

industry today in relation to the Gap we industry today in relation to the Gap we have in operators and affiliate managers

have in operators and affiliate managers have in operators and affiliate managers with their grasp of data or maybe their

with their grasp of data or maybe their with their grasp of data or maybe their lack of understanding of how to look at

lack of understanding of how to look at lack of understanding of how to look at how to manipulate it uh what are some of

how to manipulate it uh what are some of how to manipulate it uh what are some of the problems you see today and how do

the problems you see today and how do the problems you see today and how do you think we can change this in terms of you think we can change this in terms of you think we can change this in terms of getting affiliate managers and operators

getting affiliate managers and operators getting affiliate managers and operators up to speed to say hey there's a new

up to speed to say hey there's a new up to speed to say hey there's a new wave of tools coming and affiliate

wave of tools coming and affiliate wave of tools coming and affiliate managers they should be looking at data

managers they should be looking at data managers they should be looking at data in a different way

in a different way in a different way do you want me to take this one

do you want me to take this one do you want me to take this one yeah yeah okay

so so um we understand for any new platform um we understand for any new platform um we understand for any new platform not just our own okay you're gonna come

not just our own okay you're gonna come not just our own okay you're gonna come with with with change okay this could be from those who

change okay this could be from those who change okay this could be from those who know a platform which is 15 20 years old

know a platform which is 15 20 years old know a platform which is 15 20 years old for someone which is five years old and

for someone which is five years old and for someone which is five years old and then you take referon which is not even

then you take referon which is not even then you take referon which is not even a year old it's gonna come people don't

a year old it's gonna come people don't a year old it's gonna come people don't like change no matter what industry

like change no matter what industry like change no matter what industry you're in no matter what vertical you're you're in no matter what vertical you're you're in no matter what vertical you're in people don't like change how do you

in people don't like change how do you in people don't like change how do you overcome this hurdle well we've done our

overcome this hurdle well we've done our overcome this hurdle well we've done our best to be an involved with affiliate

best to be an involved with affiliate best to be an involved with affiliate managers with other operators as much as

managers with other operators as much as managers with other operators as much as we can from the very start and we've

we can from the very start and we've we can from the very start and we've kind of alluded to already about kind of alluded to already about kind of alluded to already about documentation videos all of that stuff

documentation videos all of that stuff documentation videos all of that stuff we've kind of pre-built

we've kind of pre-built we've kind of pre-built um ready to go

um ready to go um ready to go um you can kind of have a look see how

um you can kind of have a look see how um you can kind of have a look see how they are when we do demos with new

they are when we do demos with new they are when we do demos with new clients we take you through kind of

clients we take you through kind of clients we take you through kind of analogies show you how it's done give

analogies show you how it's done give analogies show you how it's done give them access making sure that operators

them access making sure that operators them access making sure that operators know what they're buying before they're

know what they're buying before they're know what they're buying before they're going so you have your decision makers

going so you have your decision makers going so you have your decision makers Which is higher up and you know we'll Which is higher up and you know we'll Which is higher up and you know we'll give them demos and stuff but the give them demos and stuff but the give them demos and stuff but the affiliate managers yes it is a case of

affiliate managers yes it is a case of affiliate managers yes it is a case of how do you get a tool

how do you get a tool how do you get a tool and use it properly okay with any

and use it properly okay with any and use it properly okay with any platform you are always providing the

platform you are always providing the platform you are always providing the tools and then they make how how easy it

tools and then they make how how easy it tools and then they make how how easy it is to get that answer with referon and

is to get that answer with referon and is to get that answer with referon and what we've tried to do is make a much

what we've tried to do is make a much what we've tried to do is make a much more kind of data driven approach and more kind of data driven approach and more kind of data driven approach and make it much more accessible you may I

make it much more accessible you may I make it much more accessible you may I don't know if I've shown you or not from don't know if I've shown you or not from don't know if I've shown you or not from the platform but statistics uh widgets

the platform but statistics uh widgets the platform but statistics uh widgets previous period and current periods and

previous period and current periods and previous period and current periods and kind of the pivot table of reporting

kind of the pivot table of reporting kind of the pivot table of reporting gives much more accessibility to the

gives much more accessibility to the gives much more accessibility to the data the clients that we have already

data the clients that we have already data the clients that we have already have already said to us directly they've

have already said to us directly they've have already said to us directly they've already saved costs made a better and

already saved costs made a better and already saved costs made a better and quicker business decisions on reward

quicker business decisions on reward quicker business decisions on reward plans and you know General clicks that

plans and you know General clicks that plans and you know General clicks that are coming in and general metrics that

are coming in and general metrics that are coming in and general metrics that are showing in every step of the way we

are showing in every step of the way we are showing in every step of the way we don't want to have that clunky flow

don't want to have that clunky flow don't want to have that clunky flow and stop someone to engage with the data

and stop someone to engage with the data and stop someone to engage with the data we're trying to make it as much easier

we're trying to make it as much easier we're trying to make it as much easier as we can we have Affiliates that are

as we can we have Affiliates that are as we can we have Affiliates that are signing up all the time which have never signing up all the time which have never signing up all the time which have never touched the stuff before okay and I'm in

touched the stuff before okay and I'm in touched the stuff before okay and I'm in these chats I'm in a million Snapchats

these chats I'm in a million Snapchats these chats I'm in a million Snapchats and it could be like I need to get a

and it could be like I need to get a and it could be like I need to get a tracking link and I don't know where to tracking link and I don't know where to tracking link and I don't know where to do it I've clicked this what have I done do it I've clicked this what have I done do it I've clicked this what have I done wrong I give them the video or I have a

wrong I give them the video or I have a wrong I give them the video or I have a little chat with them and suddenly once

little chat with them and suddenly once little chat with them and suddenly once it clicks it's like super easy to

it clicks it's like super easy to it clicks it's like super easy to understand it's like a slight Zeitgeist

understand it's like a slight Zeitgeist understand it's like a slight Zeitgeist without me kind of making too

without me kind of making too without me kind of making too egotistical but it is a new way of

egotistical but it is a new way of egotistical but it is a new way of looking at tracking looking rewarding looking at tracking looking rewarding looking at tracking looking rewarding and making it much more fluid and once

and making it much more fluid and once and making it much more fluid and once you get that it's just so easy

you get that it's just so easy you get that it's just so easy that makes makes total sense

that makes makes total sense that makes makes total sense um continuing on with this similar theme

um continuing on with this similar theme um continuing on with this similar theme I've gotten my next question prepared

I've gotten my next question prepared I've gotten my next question prepared but I'm going to rephrase it a little but I'm going to rephrase it a little but I'm going to rephrase it a little differently because both of what we do

differently because both of what we do differently because both of what we do as a company and what you do as a

as a company and what you do as a as a company and what you do as a company we're in the B2B space and we

company we're in the B2B space and we company we're in the B2B space and we have to sell products and features and

have to sell products and features and have to sell products and features and the software in a totally different way

the software in a totally different way the software in a totally different way and I actually believe that how we have

and I actually believe that how we have and I actually believe that how we have to sell our products and services to

to sell our products and services to to sell our products and services to both affiliate managers and operators or

both affiliate managers and operators or both affiliate managers and operators or for at least from your point of view we

for at least from your point of view we for at least from your point of view we need to do it in a way that's like need to do it in a way that's like need to do it in a way that's like building relationships and one thing

building relationships and one thing building relationships and one thing I've noticed at the Amsterdam conference

I've noticed at the Amsterdam conference I've noticed at the Amsterdam conference and I asked a lot of people their their

and I asked a lot of people their their and I asked a lot of people their their take on this I said this industry is

take on this I said this industry is take on this I said this industry is getting bigger more programs are opening

getting bigger more programs are opening getting bigger more programs are opening up we have a lot of new affiliate

up we have a lot of new affiliate up we have a lot of new affiliate managers coming in and a lot of them are

managers coming in and a lot of them are managers coming in and a lot of them are coming in with this head first like Bowl

coming in with this head first like Bowl coming in with this head first like Bowl in a china shop going I need to make

in a china shop going I need to make in a china shop going I need to make sales they want to get that single sale

sales they want to get that single sale sales they want to get that single sale count but they're not focused on the

count but they're not focused on the count but they're not focused on the after like the retention the

after like the retention the after like the retention the relationship building and I believe for

relationship building and I believe for relationship building and I believe for affiliate marketing this is like affiliate marketing this is like affiliate marketing this is like extremely critical so I know tools can

extremely critical so I know tools can extremely critical so I know tools can help for this but what do you think is

help for this but what do you think is help for this but what do you think is the next thing that needs to be done the next thing that needs to be done the next thing that needs to be done it's not just educating affiliate

it's not just educating affiliate it's not just educating affiliate managers on how to use data but how do

managers on how to use data but how do managers on how to use data but how do we get this transformation of going you

we get this transformation of going you we get this transformation of going you can get your sale but if that's all

can get your sale but if that's all can get your sale but if that's all you're interested in you might be

you're interested in you might be you're interested in you might be missing out on bigger opportunities of

missing out on bigger opportunities of missing out on bigger opportunities of retaining like Affiliates are they're

retaining like Affiliates are they're retaining like Affiliates are they're almost like players like you can acquire almost like players like you can acquire almost like players like you can acquire them that's expensive but to retain them

them that's expensive but to retain them them that's expensive but to retain them you have to retain your Affiliates just

you have to retain your Affiliates just you have to retain your Affiliates just as much as you have to retain a player

as much as you have to retain a player as much as you have to retain a player uh Vlad you want to take this yeah I can

uh Vlad you want to take this yeah I can uh Vlad you want to take this yeah I can start with the answer yeah this is quite

start with the answer yeah this is quite start with the answer yeah this is quite a good question because the system

a good question because the system a good question because the system should be as a central Hub of

should be as a central Hub of should be as a central Hub of information which enables uh them us to

information which enables uh them us to information which enables uh them us to monitor all affiliate activities and

monitor all affiliate activities and monitor all affiliate activities and evaluate first of all the campaign

evaluate first of all the campaign evaluate first of all the campaign performance and adjust strategies based

performance and adjust strategies based performance and adjust strategies based on this and like at the control center

on this and like at the control center on this and like at the control center reference first of all gives us

reference first of all gives us reference first of all gives us opportunity like ubiquitous

opportunity like ubiquitous opportunity like ubiquitous accessibility all to all the manual

accessibility all to all the manual accessibility all to all the manual repetitive tasks it eliminates it fully

repetitive tasks it eliminates it fully repetitive tasks it eliminates it fully and freeing up some valuable space and

and freeing up some valuable space and and freeing up some valuable space and time for affiliate manager to focus on

time for affiliate manager to focus on time for affiliate manager to focus on relationship building and not to make

relationship building and not to make relationship building and not to make some like unnecessary steps and

some like unnecessary steps and some like unnecessary steps and unnecessary clicks so like everything is

unnecessary clicks so like everything is unnecessary clicks so like everything is out of the box and they need the desire

out of the box and they need the desire out of the box and they need the desire for analytical tool and the market is

for analytical tool and the market is for analytical tool and the market is having already this desire for

having already this desire for having already this desire for analytical tool like to be able to

analytical tool like to be able to analytical tool like to be able to calculate in Roi correctly full

calculate in Roi correctly full calculate in Roi correctly full visibility on some relevant measures

visibility on some relevant measures visibility on some relevant measures etc etc like for example from our point

etc etc like for example from our point etc etc like for example from our point of view as I have been involved in this

of view as I have been involved in this of view as I have been involved in this Sphere for past like six years I often

Sphere for past like six years I often Sphere for past like six years I often tell people that I consider myself as a

tell people that I consider myself as a tell people that I consider myself as a lazy person yeah and my trigger words

lazy person yeah and my trigger words lazy person yeah and my trigger words always were optimization Automation and

always were optimization Automation and always were optimization Automation and structuring and this everything is

structuring and this everything is structuring and this everything is interconnected because I constantly

interconnected because I constantly interconnected because I constantly striving to align my like work with some

striving to align my like work with some striving to align my like work with some specific rules to avoid repetitive tasks

specific rules to avoid repetitive tasks specific rules to avoid repetitive tasks some manual action this is what central

some manual action this is what central some manual action this is what central Hub means for ourselves from referon and

Hub means for ourselves from referon and Hub means for ourselves from referon and like our daily routine and not only our

like our daily routine and not only our like our daily routine and not only our I I'm sure involved uh extracting some

I I'm sure involved uh extracting some I I'm sure involved uh extracting some CSV file from third party to upload it

CSV file from third party to upload it CSV file from third party to upload it to Google Sheets and with the help of a

to Google Sheets and with the help of a to Google Sheets and with the help of a extensive crms based on Google Sheets or

extensive crms based on Google Sheets or extensive crms based on Google Sheets or whatever we could then analyze data this

whatever we could then analyze data this whatever we could then analyze data this is not the proper flow we need to like

is not the proper flow we need to like is not the proper flow we need to like that's why as time passed I started

that's why as time passed I started that's why as time passed I started feeling tired because of all this

feeling tired because of all this feeling tired because of all this restriction limitation of uh using only

restriction limitation of uh using only restriction limitation of uh using only Google Sheets or Google Sheets with some

Google Sheets or Google Sheets with some Google Sheets or Google Sheets with some other add-ons whatever and like our CRM

other add-ons whatever and like our CRM other add-ons whatever and like our CRM outgrew its capabilities and that's when

outgrew its capabilities and that's when outgrew its capabilities and that's when the idea of reference was born and I

the idea of reference was born and I the idea of reference was born and I recognized the need of more advanced

recognized the need of more advanced recognized the need of more advanced tools comprehensive affiliate management

tools comprehensive affiliate management tools comprehensive affiliate management system that's why this is everything

system that's why this is everything system that's why this is everything interconnected we can be focused on some

interconnected we can be focused on some interconnected we can be focused on some retention on some Partnerships only when

retention on some Partnerships only when retention on some Partnerships only when we are not doing any manual steps we are

we are not doing any manual steps we are we are not doing any manual steps we are not doing repetitive tasks and moving

not doing repetitive tasks and moving not doing repetitive tasks and moving from our initial CRM in Google Sheets to

from our initial CRM in Google Sheets to from our initial CRM in Google Sheets to developing developing developing reference was a natural step basically

reference was a natural step basically reference was a natural step basically and so we needed to overcome those

and so we needed to overcome those and so we needed to overcome those limitations that's what

limitations that's what limitations that's what I mean when I speak that referon can be

I mean when I speak that referon can be I mean when I speak that referon can be a proper Central hub for affiliate

a proper Central hub for affiliate a proper Central hub for affiliate managers to maintain the proper

managers to maintain the proper managers to maintain the proper Partnerships and for Affiliates to have

Partnerships and for Affiliates to have Partnerships and for Affiliates to have the proper understanding how each

the proper understanding how each the proper understanding how each campaign is doing how each of us is

campaign is doing how each of us is campaign is doing how each of us is performing this is what's reference and

performing this is what's reference and performing this is what's reference and data-driven lazy approach

obviously we're looking at a bit of a obviously we're looking at a bit of a angle on affiliate Managers from this

angle on affiliate Managers from this angle on affiliate Managers from this perspective and obviously they're

perspective and obviously they're perspective and obviously they're getting the fdds but no retention but

getting the fdds but no retention but getting the fdds but no retention but another level of what referon offers and

another level of what referon offers and another level of what referon offers and any platform is actual operators

any platform is actual operators any platform is actual operators operators are using this and they want

operators are using this and they want operators are using this and they want to see how a brand converts not just at

to see how a brand converts not just at to see how a brand converts not just at the individual affiliate manager now

the individual affiliate manager now the individual affiliate manager now coming back to the question of

coming back to the question of coming back to the question of building that retention making sure you

building that retention making sure you building that retention making sure you have that relationship if you take the

have that relationship if you take the have that relationship if you take the example of an operator comes to platform

example of an operator comes to platform example of an operator comes to platform X okay and they don't like it

X okay and they don't like it X okay and they don't like it they're not going to add any more Brands they're not going to add any more Brands they're not going to add any more Brands to that platform they're not going to be to that platform they're not going to be to that platform they're not going to be any more data streams they're not going any more data streams they're not going any more data streams they're not going to use it continuously if you build up

to use it continuously if you build up to use it continuously if you build up the relationship and you show it's

the relationship and you show it's the relationship and you show it's worthwhile and they know they can get

worthwhile and they know they can get worthwhile and they know they can get certain data aspects out of it and they

certain data aspects out of it and they certain data aspects out of it and they find it friendly or accessible they're

find it friendly or accessible they're find it friendly or accessible they're going to add and probably get more

going to add and probably get more going to add and probably get more Brands onto the system so you build a

Brands onto the system so you build a Brands onto the system so you build a relationship in that angle and at the

relationship in that angle and at the relationship in that angle and at the same time the affiliate managers are same time the affiliate managers are same time the affiliate managers are used to it you can have multiple

used to it you can have multiple used to it you can have multiple programs running through the same kind

programs running through the same kind programs running through the same kind of URLs the accessibility and usage of

of URLs the accessibility and usage of of URLs the accessibility and usage of it is multifaceted it's not just

it is multifaceted it's not just it is multifaceted it's not just affiliate manager getting ftds and

affiliate manager getting ftds and affiliate manager getting ftds and showing case click to ftds okay I'm done

showing case click to ftds okay I'm done showing case click to ftds okay I'm done that's me for the kpis it's there's more

that's me for the kpis it's there's more that's me for the kpis it's there's more there's more layers at an affiliate

there's more layers at an affiliate there's more layers at an affiliate platform than just the Affiliates coming

platform than just the Affiliates coming platform than just the Affiliates coming in now I agree I think with what uh Vlad

in now I agree I think with what uh Vlad in now I agree I think with what uh Vlad mentioned uh previously is that you know

mentioned uh previously is that you know mentioned uh previously is that you know having this uh affiliate manager Hub is

having this uh affiliate manager Hub is having this uh affiliate manager Hub is important I mean we kind of already know

important I mean we kind of already know important I mean we kind of already know that a lot of these affiliate platforms

that a lot of these affiliate platforms that a lot of these affiliate platforms affiliate program software they are

affiliate program software they are affiliate program software they are meant to be that Hub in the first place

meant to be that Hub in the first place meant to be that Hub in the first place but I feel like a lot of them are but I feel like a lot of them are but I feel like a lot of them are missing something so I've got two more

missing something so I've got two more missing something so I've got two more questions and one's already written down

questions and one's already written down questions and one's already written down and another one's kind of sprung up and another one's kind of sprung up and another one's kind of sprung up where do you think there's going to be a

where do you think there's going to be a where do you think there's going to be a next wave I mean I'm pretty sure I kind

next wave I mean I'm pretty sure I kind next wave I mean I'm pretty sure I kind of know the answer to this next wave of

of know the answer to this next wave of of know the answer to this next wave of affiliate program software that has not

affiliate program software that has not affiliate program software that has not just what it says it does but there's

just what it says it does but there's just what it says it does but there's more analytics and business intelligence

more analytics and business intelligence more analytics and business intelligence built into this where it's doing this

built into this where it's doing this built into this where it's doing this analysis saying hey maybe we think we

analysis saying hey maybe we think we analysis saying hey maybe we think we can optimize your affiliate program

can optimize your affiliate program can optimize your affiliate program based on what we're seeing as patterns

based on what we're seeing as patterns based on what we're seeing as patterns um let me just take this a sec but so

um let me just take this a sec but so um let me just take this a sec but so agree 100 AI over just the last seven

agree 100 AI over just the last seven agree 100 AI over just the last seven months has been crazy in general Society

months has been crazy in general Society months has been crazy in general Society apply that to affiliate programs you'll

apply that to affiliate programs you'll apply that to affiliate programs you'll be laughing you can see profit ability

be laughing you can see profit ability be laughing you can see profit ability you can see forecasted rates of churn by

you can see forecasted rates of churn by you can see forecasted rates of churn by players you can see oh maybe this deal

players you can see oh maybe this deal players you can see oh maybe this deal has been applied to this Market what's

has been applied to this Market what's has been applied to this Market what's the average all this stuff

the average all this stuff the average all this stuff I mean this all comes to the vague term

I mean this all comes to the vague term I mean this all comes to the vague term of business intelligence what does that of business intelligence what does that of business intelligence what does that mean it's looking at data and making

mean it's looking at data and making mean it's looking at data and making smart choices okay so if any of these

smart choices okay so if any of these smart choices okay so if any of these programs start doing AI into it they'll

programs start doing AI into it they'll programs start doing AI into it they'll be top of the pile instantly because

be top of the pile instantly because be top of the pile instantly because that's where people want to be you want

that's where people want to be you want that's where people want to be you want to look at instant business decisions

to look at instant business decisions to look at instant business decisions with your data it's something we have

with your data it's something we have with your data it's something we have discussed discussed discussed but it's still something which is maybe

but it's still something which is maybe but it's still something which is maybe next year

that makes sense it's uh you gave me the that makes sense it's uh you gave me the perfect snippet to take in yeah I like

perfect snippet to take in yeah I like perfect snippet to take in yeah I like that uh the next question I mean we know

that uh the next question I mean we know that uh the next question I mean we know in the news recently that deep CI was

in the news recently that deep CI was in the news recently that deep CI was acquired by every Matrix and I listened

acquired by every Matrix and I listened acquired by every Matrix and I listened to another podcast I think it was the

to another podcast I think it was the to another podcast I think it was the gambling files and got a chance to

gambling files and got a chance to gambling files and got a chance to listen to I think it was what's the

listen to I think it was what's the listen to I think it was what's the guy's name guy's name guy's name for live deep CI DTI I think it's Clyde

for live deep CI DTI I think it's Clyde for live deep CI DTI I think it's Clyde Clyde yeah so applied was basically kind

Clyde yeah so applied was basically kind Clyde yeah so applied was basically kind of walking through the features I I

of walking through the features I I of walking through the features I I gotta uh went through the video demos

gotta uh went through the video demos gotta uh went through the video demos but it looked really interesting uh do

but it looked really interesting uh do but it looked really interesting uh do you think there's going to be more of you think there's going to be more of you think there's going to be more of these tools hitting the market and I

these tools hitting the market and I these tools hitting the market and I mean we're going to assume that every

mean we're going to assume that every mean we're going to assume that every Matrix will keep us going but they could

Matrix will keep us going but they could Matrix will keep us going but they could easily say hey this is only for in-house

easily say hey this is only for in-house easily say hey this is only for in-house or they might actually say the best

or they might actually say the best or they might actually say the best features are going to be pure in-house

features are going to be pure in-house features are going to be pure in-house I mean they could I'm not saying they're

I mean they could I'm not saying they're I mean they could I'm not saying they're not going to I'm not involved I think

not going to I'm not involved I think not going to I'm not involved I think there is definitely more like that I

there is definitely more like that I there is definitely more like that I mean most people most most Affiliates

mean most people most most Affiliates mean most people most most Affiliates nowadays know

nowadays know nowadays know or use hrefs similar web or deep CI

or use hrefs similar web or deep CI or use hrefs similar web or deep CI those those are the top three okay they

those those are the top three okay they those those are the top three okay they all do very similar things I'm not going

all do very similar things I'm not going all do very similar things I'm not going to give you pros and cons of each of to give you pros and cons of each of to give you pros and cons of each of those markets that's up to the watches

those markets that's up to the watches those markets that's up to the watches to decide and what to look at but most

to decide and what to look at but most to decide and what to look at but most affiliate managers use these on a daily

affiliate managers use these on a daily affiliate managers use these on a daily basis the fact that partner Matrix has

basis the fact that partner Matrix has basis the fact that partner Matrix has um kind of acquired deep CI I think is a

um kind of acquired deep CI I think is a um kind of acquired deep CI I think is a great move I think that's that's a great

great move I think that's that's a great great move I think that's that's a great move for them to encourage more of the

move for them to encourage more of the move for them to encourage more of the checks in-house rather than relying on

checks in-house rather than relying on checks in-house rather than relying on third parties this is something we've third parties this is something we've third parties this is something we've alluded to in this school already

alluded to in this school already alluded to in this school already removing that Reliance third-party

removing that Reliance third-party removing that Reliance third-party programs this is just one of the many

programs this is just one of the many programs this is just one of the many um to say it's going to stop there is

um to say it's going to stop there is um to say it's going to stop there is almost saying like

almost saying like almost saying like are there going to be more affiliate

are there going to be more affiliate are there going to be more affiliate platforms it's people always come up

platforms it's people always come up platforms it's people always come up with new ideas uh there's the market

with new ideas uh there's the market with new ideas uh there's the market changes there's going to be new things

changes there's going to be new things changes there's going to be new things that will come on board more data more

that will come on board more data more that will come on board more data more stuff to extract from websites

stuff to extract from websites stuff to extract from websites it's not going to stop anytime soon

it's not going to stop anytime soon it's not going to stop anytime soon um but I just want to point out quite

um but I just want to point out quite um but I just want to point out quite Matrix did a fantastic move there

Matrix did a fantastic move there Matrix did a fantastic move there yeah I wish I could fully agree with the

yeah I wish I could fully agree with the yeah I wish I could fully agree with the idea that affiliate managers are using

idea that affiliate managers are using idea that affiliate managers are using similar web deep CIA okay theoretically

similar web deep CIA okay theoretically similar web deep CIA okay theoretically they know about them maybe they don't

they know about them maybe they don't they know about them maybe they don't use it I don't know about them that's

use it I don't know about them that's use it I don't know about them that's clarification because I mean I am

clarification because I mean I am clarification because I mean I am teaching a couple people in the

teaching a couple people in the teaching a couple people in the background how to use hrefs uh for any

background how to use hrefs uh for any background how to use hrefs uh for any different uh points of view and

different uh points of view and different uh points of view and um I kind of wish a deep CI was in the

um I kind of wish a deep CI was in the um I kind of wish a deep CI was in the market earlier and it was actually

market earlier and it was actually market earlier and it was actually expanded everywhere because I mean we've

expanded everywhere because I mean we've expanded everywhere because I mean we've been Affiliates for like a good 10 years

been Affiliates for like a good 10 years been Affiliates for like a good 10 years and we still have test accounts so we

and we still have test accounts so we and we still have test accounts so we create an account for every single create an account for every single create an account for every single program because we need to add that in program because we need to add that in program because we need to add that in our app and it's just frustrating the

our app and it's just frustrating the our app and it's just frustrating the types of questions we get and a lot of

types of questions we get and a lot of types of questions we get and a lot of it I'm gonna have to say it comes from it I'm gonna have to say it comes from it I'm gonna have to say it comes from new affiliate managers even when we had

new affiliate managers even when we had new affiliate managers even when we had our affiliate sites they had always our affiliate sites they had always our affiliate sites they had always asked for the number one spot and even

asked for the number one spot and even asked for the number one spot and even when I tried to explain to them that our

when I tried to explain to them that our when I tried to explain to them that our best converting pages are this one and

best converting pages are this one and best converting pages are this one and that one and a couple other subsets just

that one and a couple other subsets just that one and a couple other subsets just no just want number one spot and it's

no just want number one spot and it's no just want number one spot and it's like okay do you want to overpay for it

like okay do you want to overpay for it like okay do you want to overpay for it and they're like oh we don't want to pay

and they're like oh we don't want to pay and they're like oh we don't want to pay but we want number one because we're the but we want number one because we're the but we want number one because we're the best and it's just kind of frustrating I

best and it's just kind of frustrating I best and it's just kind of frustrating I think these tools I hope at some point

think these tools I hope at some point think these tools I hope at some point change change change um like going full circle back to

um like going full circle back to um like going full circle back to previous discussions this uh I need to

previous discussions this uh I need to previous discussions this uh I need to get the sale and then once I got the get the sale and then once I got the get the sale and then once I got the sale I move on I just think that there's

sale I move on I just think that there's sale I move on I just think that there's a lack of uh education no one's going to

a lack of uh education no one's going to a lack of uh education no one's going to college or university to become an

college or university to become an college or university to become an affiliate manager they come into the

affiliate manager they come into the affiliate manager they come into the space they get hired because they've got

space they get hired because they've got space they get hired because they've got a sales background and I kind of think

a sales background and I kind of think a sales background and I kind of think that maybe they actually need to start

that maybe they actually need to start that maybe they actually need to start taking some courses on affiliate

taking some courses on affiliate taking some courses on affiliate management I mean there's thousands of

management I mean there's thousands of management I mean there's thousands of courses online you know you go to udemy

courses online you know you go to udemy courses online you know you go to udemy or whatever but it depends on which

or whatever but it depends on which or whatever but it depends on which vertical I mean we're currently focused

vertical I mean we're currently focused vertical I mean we're currently focused on gambling is the the vertical we're

on gambling is the the vertical we're on gambling is the the vertical we're kind of focused on but there's so many

kind of focused on but there's so many kind of focused on but there's so many others people say you know how to be an others people say you know how to be an others people say you know how to be an affiliate let me get one million in six

affiliate let me get one million in six affiliate let me get one million in six days it doesn't happen instantly and

days it doesn't happen instantly and days it doesn't happen instantly and there are experiences there's people be

there are experiences there's people be there are experiences there's people be in the market you know for sometimes 20

in the market you know for sometimes 20 in the market you know for sometimes 20 years looking at the original kind of

years looking at the original kind of years looking at the original kind of affiliate and Performance Marketing and

affiliate and Performance Marketing and affiliate and Performance Marketing and it's very basic to the very kind of

it's very basic to the very kind of it's very basic to the very kind of modern day modern day modern day getting that experience in that getting that experience in that getting that experience in that knowledge and the connections is the

knowledge and the connections is the knowledge and the connections is the biggest kind of way to

biggest kind of way to biggest kind of way to you know people know you people know

you know people know you people know you know people know you people know what the brands you promote and if you

what the brands you promote and if you what the brands you promote and if you do move companies people you know will

do move companies people you know will do move companies people you know will respond and probably promote you

respond and probably promote you respond and probably promote you accordingly it's building those accordingly it's building those accordingly it's building those relationships but yeah if you're number

relationships but yeah if you're number relationships but yeah if you're number one one one why get number two right why get number two right why get number two right [Laughter]

[Laughter] [Laughter] number one and number two and number

number one and number two and number number one and number two and number three it depends how many Brands you

three it depends how many Brands you three it depends how many Brands you have yes yeah maybe

have yes yeah maybe have yes yeah maybe all right anything about that on that all right anything about that on that all right anything about that on that one from your experiences

one from your experiences one from your experiences I agree with you guys I was back in time

I agree with you guys I was back in time I agree with you guys I was back in time affiliate manager I was using ahrefs and

affiliate manager I was using ahrefs and affiliate manager I was using ahrefs and all the stuff I know John what you are

all the stuff I know John what you are all the stuff I know John what you are speaking about because uh even in my

speaking about because uh even in my speaking about because uh even in my case like my uh with whom I was working

case like my uh with whom I was working case like my uh with whom I was working before yeah

before yeah before yeah like two

like two like two to start using some tools is always is

to start using some tools is always is to start using some tools is always is always a challenge especially when it

always a challenge especially when it always a challenge especially when it comes to some new tools like deepsea or

comes to some new tools like deepsea or comes to some new tools like deepsea or whatever whatever whatever but the industry becomes more data

but the industry becomes more data but the industry becomes more data driven more such tools will come and

driven more such tools will come and driven more such tools will come and obviously that's we are speaking now we

obviously that's we are speaking now we obviously that's we are speaking now we are living in a AI uh Century so to say

are living in a AI uh Century so to say are living in a AI uh Century so to say I hope I'm sure I'm not hoping but I

I hope I'm sure I'm not hoping but I I hope I'm sure I'm not hoping but I sure that such tools will be available

sure that such tools will be available sure that such tools will be available also uh for AI the thing is that I

also uh for AI the thing is that I also uh for AI the thing is that I gaming sphere is quite limited we have a

gaming sphere is quite limited we have a gaming sphere is quite limited we have a really nice really nice really nice um like examples of web series sphere

um like examples of web series sphere um like examples of web series sphere like all these cryptocurrencies here

like all these cryptocurrencies here like all these cryptocurrencies here it's much much much

it's much much much it's much much much is having much more higher expectation

is having much more higher expectation is having much more higher expectation yeah a lot of people much more people

yeah a lot of people much more people yeah a lot of people much more people are involved in that and much more

are involved in that and much more are involved in that and much more sophisticated solution uh are there

sophisticated solution uh are there sophisticated solution uh are there but even there even there binance for

but even there even there binance for but even there even there binance for example doesn't give us proper API so

example doesn't give us proper API so example doesn't give us proper API so what we can speak about eye gaming where

what we can speak about eye gaming where what we can speak about eye gaming where money is big and a lot of money are

money is big and a lot of money are money is big and a lot of money are coming here but if binance cannot give

coming here but if binance cannot give coming here but if binance cannot give us proper apis what we can speak and

us proper apis what we can speak and us proper apis what we can speak and tell about this small uh topic so this a

tell about this small uh topic so this a tell about this small uh topic so this a matter of time I saw I suppose I hope

matter of time I saw I suppose I hope matter of time I saw I suppose I hope and more tools will come and I am a fan

and more tools will come and I am a fan and more tools will come and I am a fan of chat GPT I'm a fan of new tools I I

of chat GPT I'm a fan of new tools I I of chat GPT I'm a fan of new tools I I know that it's it's quite low amount of

know that it's it's quite low amount of know that it's it's quite low amount of people still right now who wants to use

people still right now who wants to use people still right now who wants to use new Tools in igaming sphere so this is

new Tools in igaming sphere so this is new Tools in igaming sphere so this is coming from a person who literally uses

coming from a person who literally uses coming from a person who literally uses chat PPT for everything

chat PPT for everything chat PPT for everything yeah every time I'm doing a screenshot

yeah every time I'm doing a screenshot yeah every time I'm doing a screenshot with him he always has an open every

with him he always has an open every with him he always has an open every single thing

single thing single thing you know and it helps a lot it helps us

you know and it helps a lot it helps us you know and it helps a lot it helps us a lot I want to see this kind of judging

a lot I want to see this kind of judging a lot I want to see this kind of judging reference as well I just need to find

reference as well I just need to find reference as well I just need to find the guy who will like GPT

exactly what it's going to be called exactly what it's going to be called then you should buy the domain I want to

then you should buy the domain I want to then you should buy the domain I want to work with people with uh like how does

work with people with uh like how does work with people with uh like how does wizard with the Stars yeah in the eyes

wizard with the Stars yeah in the eyes wizard with the Stars yeah in the eyes yeah yeah yeah you know who is in our delusion exactly

you know who is in our delusion exactly you know who is in our delusion exactly exactly exactly exactly yeah a vision for the future I mean we

yeah a vision for the future I mean we yeah a vision for the future I mean we used to joke with Vlad during the early

used to joke with Vlad during the early used to joke with Vlad during the early stages of relevant he had so much

stages of relevant he had so much stages of relevant he had so much passion he was like yeah we were talking

passion he was like yeah we were talking passion he was like yeah we were talking and I was talking at a normal level and

and I was talking at a normal level and and I was talking at a normal level and then everyone else would be like go find

then everyone else would be like go find then everyone else would be like go find a room like you're so loud

he was just he loves he loves his date he was just he loves he loves his date Erin you know he's found the right job

Erin you know he's found the right job Erin you know he's found the right job you were calling me even Dave always

you were calling me even Dave always you were calling me even Dave always passion fruit yeah yeah

passion fruit yeah yeah passion fruit yeah yeah [Laughter]

[Laughter] [Laughter] oh that is so good

oh that is so good oh that is so good we'll we'll say that discussion for

we'll we'll say that discussion for we'll we'll say that discussion for another one and especially I mean easily

another one and especially I mean easily another one and especially I mean easily chat CPT that could be a while they're

chat CPT that could be a while they're chat CPT that could be a while they're uh yeah that's a whole different

uh yeah that's a whole different uh yeah that's a whole different ballgame that could be a whole other can ballgame that could be a whole other can ballgame that could be a whole other can of fruit so to speak yeah

of fruit so to speak yeah of fruit so to speak yeah um next question yeah

I love that I love that um cookie so what's happening with

um cookie so what's happening with um cookie so what's happening with cookies and what do you think is one or

cookies and what do you think is one or cookies and what do you think is one or a couple good ways of trying to solve

a couple good ways of trying to solve a couple good ways of trying to solve this what could be a problem

this what could be a problem this what could be a problem um I don't know if it's supposed to be um I don't know if it's supposed to be um I don't know if it's supposed to be this year or next year it's going to get

this year or next year it's going to get this year or next year it's going to get delayed so I'm gonna do an introductory

delayed so I'm gonna do an introductory delayed so I'm gonna do an introductory thing and then Vlad can take over so

thing and then Vlad can take over so thing and then Vlad can take over so essentially Google's been saying this

essentially Google's been saying this essentially Google's been saying this for years let's let's let's be honest

for years let's let's let's be honest for years let's let's let's be honest here here here what's happened in kind of website

what's happened in kind of website what's happened in kind of website development or general kind of Internet

development or general kind of Internet development or general kind of Internet over the last couple of years since they

over the last couple of years since they over the last couple of years since they even said it has been phenomenal I mean

even said it has been phenomenal I mean even said it has been phenomenal I mean technology has always come fun

technology has always come fun technology has always come fun just kind of Leaps and Bounds every year

just kind of Leaps and Bounds every year just kind of Leaps and Bounds every year almost so removing cookies is not going

almost so removing cookies is not going almost so removing cookies is not going to be the end of the world in my opinion

to be the end of the world in my opinion to be the end of the world in my opinion there are many other ways you can still

there are many other ways you can still there are many other ways you can still obtain information I mean look in the

obtain information I mean look in the obtain information I mean look in the last five years just five years pixels

last five years just five years pixels last five years just five years pixels and post-backs and variables have shot

and post-backs and variables have shot and post-backs and variables have shot up in demand like hugely I mean you

up in demand like hugely I mean you up in demand like hugely I mean you yourself John you you see this in all

yourself John you you see this in all yourself John you you see this in all probably your API pools and everything probably your API pools and everything probably your API pools and everything but go back five years

but go back five years but go back five years it was barely mentioned so cookies have

it was barely mentioned so cookies have it was barely mentioned so cookies have been around since the internet

been around since the internet been around since the internet was in its early infancy

was in its early infancy was in its early infancy the fact that we're still using it is

the fact that we're still using it is the fact that we're still using it is already a phenomenal like it's crazy we

already a phenomenal like it's crazy we already a phenomenal like it's crazy we have so many other types of doing it so

have so many other types of doing it so have so many other types of doing it so I don't think it's I don't think it's I don't think it's gonna be the end of the world I just gonna be the end of the world I just gonna be the end of the world I just think we'll just find another way to to

think we'll just find another way to to think we'll just find another way to to track it that's all

track it that's all track it that's all yeah I think go ahead

yeah I think go ahead yeah I think go ahead I think guys this topic should be

I think guys this topic should be I think guys this topic should be perceived mostly As the market trends

perceived mostly As the market trends perceived mostly As the market trends and everyone want to stay informed we

and everyone want to stay informed we and everyone want to stay informed we even spend like five minutes to speak

even spend like five minutes to speak even spend like five minutes to speak about cookies and some people are

about cookies and some people are about cookies and some people are speaking about those cookies and when

speaking about those cookies and when speaking about those cookies and when it's an end so everything will be down

it's an end so everything will be down it's an end so everything will be down like we will be dead for three years

like we will be dead for three years like we will be dead for three years like I constantly reading those articles

like I constantly reading those articles like I constantly reading those articles but in eight like 80 approximately

but in eight like 80 approximately but in eight like 80 approximately percent of all cases uh cookies are

percent of all cases uh cookies are percent of all cases uh cookies are still sent are still used so while while

still sent are still used so while while still sent are still used so while while there are some indications uh of a shift

there are some indications uh of a shift there are some indications uh of a shift away from cookies I would still consider

away from cookies I would still consider away from cookies I would still consider them as a trend right now uh and we can

them as a trend right now uh and we can them as a trend right now uh and we can discuss this endlessly we have different

discuss this endlessly we have different discuss this endlessly we have different approaches like server to server

approaches like server to server approaches like server to server tracking postbacks like device

tracking postbacks like device tracking postbacks like device fingerprinting uh unified IDs uh

fingerprinting uh unified IDs uh fingerprinting uh unified IDs uh whatever whatever but it's quite

whatever whatever but it's quite whatever whatever but it's quite interesting topic but to my mind in the

interesting topic but to my mind in the interesting topic but to my mind in the near near future

near near future near near future it will not end with cookies

it will not end with cookies it will not end with cookies I fully agree

I fully agree I fully agree and uh last question I I ended up all

and uh last question I I ended up all and uh last question I I ended up all these podcasts with is what do you see

these podcasts with is what do you see these podcasts with is what do you see the future of affiliate marketing as it

the future of affiliate marketing as it the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence

do you want to end with that Vlad do you want to end with that Vlad um yes like we I'm trying not to laugh

um yes like we I'm trying not to laugh um yes like we I'm trying not to laugh while you guys are talking about passion

while you guys are talking about passion while you guys are talking about passion fruit that's okay we have a rapport it's

fruit that's okay we have a rapport it's fruit that's okay we have a rapport it's okay okay okay like generally speaking which of uh

like generally speaking which of uh like generally speaking which of uh affiliate marketing I really

affiliate marketing I really affiliate marketing I really seen the data driven approach as we have

seen the data driven approach as we have seen the data driven approach as we have spoken many times

spoken many times spoken many times um such topics as a real-time reporting

um such topics as a real-time reporting um such topics as a real-time reporting fraud detection like and prevention uh

fraud detection like and prevention uh fraud detection like and prevention uh Predictive Analytics all these topics

Predictive Analytics all these topics Predictive Analytics all these topics are a part of business business analysis

are a part of business business analysis are a part of business business analysis business intelligence uh and all this

business intelligence uh and all this business intelligence uh and all this stuff and obviously the data driven

stuff and obviously the data driven stuff and obviously the data driven decision making will be much more easier

decision making will be much more easier decision making will be much more easier when some business intelligent tools

when some business intelligent tools when some business intelligent tools will be applied in this sphere but to be

will be applied in this sphere but to be will be applied in this sphere but to be honest till when it happens

honest till when it happens honest till when it happens until then we we at least we need to the

until then we we at least we need to the until then we we at least we need to the proper reporting Right Now API

proper reporting Right Now API proper reporting Right Now API availability Dynamic reporting to start

availability Dynamic reporting to start availability Dynamic reporting to start from someone from somewhere like from

from someone from somewhere like from from someone from somewhere like from the first 10 default pers this 10 of

the first 10 default pers this 10 of the first 10 default pers this 10 of default uh things which should be uh

default uh things which should be uh default uh things which should be uh available from the box in the system and

available from the box in the system and available from the box in the system and then we can already uh interact with uh

then we can already uh interact with uh then we can already uh interact with uh bi with analytics with everything else

bi with analytics with everything else bi with analytics with everything else we don't have the proper API now in this

we don't have the proper API now in this we don't have the proper API now in this sphere we don't have the proper tracking

sphere we don't have the proper tracking sphere we don't have the proper tracking in this sphere whatever like some uh

in this sphere whatever like some uh in this sphere whatever like some uh programs tools cannot even properly

programs tools cannot even properly programs tools cannot even properly track uh amount of clicks

my first couple of clients were taking my first couple of clients were taking the XML as we had and we're feeding it

the XML as we had and we're feeding it the XML as we had and we're feeding it into Google data studio and we're doing

into Google data studio and we're doing into Google data studio and we're doing their own dashboards I mean we give

their own dashboards I mean we give their own dashboards I mean we give everyone the raw data they make it what

everyone the raw data they make it what everyone the raw data they make it what they will and you know you can then do

they will and you know you can then do they will and you know you can then do analytics your own because we're not

analytics your own because we're not analytics your own because we're not going to stop you or give restrictions

going to stop you or give restrictions going to stop you or give restrictions on that that's what you want to do so

on that that's what you want to do so on that that's what you want to do so already we're trying to open the door

already we're trying to open the door already we're trying to open the door it's up to you whether you want to step

it's up to you whether you want to step it's up to you whether you want to step through it or not so

through it or not so through it or not so yeah I fully agree

yeah I fully agree yeah I fully agree yeah I think uh dashboards and getting

yeah I think uh dashboards and getting yeah I think uh dashboards and getting people the ability to play with their people the ability to play with their people the ability to play with their own data is an interesting thing but I

own data is an interesting thing but I own data is an interesting thing but I do think uh you know going full circle do think uh you know going full circle do think uh you know going full circle about a just kind of touching a little

about a just kind of touching a little about a just kind of touching a little bit on the AI component is can we do

bit on the AI component is can we do bit on the AI component is can we do this in an automated way and I've

this in an automated way and I've this in an automated way and I've already seen a couple tools that will

already seen a couple tools that will already seen a couple tools that will take data and say we think these are

take data and say we think these are take data and say we think these are some insights and it's up to you to

some insights and it's up to you to some insights and it's up to you to basically agree or disagree so maybe

basically agree or disagree so maybe basically agree or disagree so maybe this could be the the next future where

this could be the the next future where this could be the the next future where you guys are right we need good data to

you guys are right we need good data to you guys are right we need good data to work with because if you've got messed

work with because if you've got messed work with because if you've got messed up data it's everything falls apart or

up data it's everything falls apart or up data it's everything falls apart or you get the wrong insights

you get the wrong insights you get the wrong insights um the next part I mean I work hard

um the next part I mean I work hard um the next part I mean I work hard we're living it right now where you've

we're living it right now where you've we're living it right now where you've got Tableau power bi you can do whatever

got Tableau power bi you can do whatever got Tableau power bi you can do whatever you want with data but I think the next

you want with data but I think the next you want with data but I think the next ones are kind of like you know this uh

ones are kind of like you know this uh ones are kind of like you know this uh you know chat CBT type of plugins where

you know chat CBT type of plugins where you know chat CBT type of plugins where you can say let me put the data in here

you can say let me put the data in here you can say let me put the data in here and give me a different report that I've

and give me a different report that I've and give me a different report that I've not seen before I mean I've done these

not seen before I mean I've done these not seen before I mean I've done these experiments almost by accident and seen

experiments almost by accident and seen experiments almost by accident and seen insights that I'm just like wow I can't

insights that I'm just like wow I can't insights that I'm just like wow I can't believe I'm looking at what I'm seeing

believe I'm looking at what I'm seeing believe I'm looking at what I'm seeing right now just because I I took the the

right now just because I I took the the right now just because I I took the the time to just throw in a bunch of

time to just throw in a bunch of time to just throw in a bunch of basically campaign data into Tableau and

basically campaign data into Tableau and basically campaign data into Tableau and what what it came out with them I just

what what it came out with them I just what what it came out with them I just believe that not a lot of people are believe that not a lot of people are believe that not a lot of people are doing these things like that and you

doing these things like that and you doing these things like that and you guys are right the early days that's the

guys are right the early days that's the guys are right the early days that's the thing the just to take some words of the

thing the just to take some words of the thing the just to take some words of the the time okay in some platforms out

the time okay in some platforms out the time okay in some platforms out there you can do this it just takes time

there you can do this it just takes time there you can do this it just takes time or you need to look up on a look up on a

or you need to look up on a look up on a or you need to look up on a look up on a lookup on different reports it is

lookup on different reports it is lookup on different reports it is possible to do this it just suddenly possible to do this it just suddenly possible to do this it just suddenly takes time if you can reduce that time

takes time if you can reduce that time takes time if you can reduce that time to a more reasonable level then you have

to a more reasonable level then you have to a more reasonable level then you have more time to analytic for to do the

more time to analytic for to do the more time to analytic for to do the analytics so all of those cases I mean a

analytics so all of those cases I mean a analytics so all of those cases I mean a really good one would be

really good one would be really good one would be what's the average CPA for this Market

what's the average CPA for this Market what's the average CPA for this Market what's my customer lifetime value okay

what's my customer lifetime value okay what's my customer lifetime value okay what's my profit margin those questions

what's my profit margin those questions what's my profit margin those questions are almost interlinked but to get that

are almost interlinked but to get that are almost interlinked but to get that information you need clean data you need

information you need clean data you need information you need clean data you need actual true data to make sure it's you

actual true data to make sure it's you actual true data to make sure it's you know it's not being fiddle Grid or know it's not being fiddle Grid or know it's not being fiddle Grid or anything like that and at what date anything like that and at what date anything like that and at what date range and all these questions are

range and all these questions are range and all these questions are sometimes easier to get than others

sometimes easier to get than others sometimes easier to get than others but these are the kind of stuff we have

but these are the kind of stuff we have but these are the kind of stuff we have honestly we've spoken about these are

honestly we've spoken about these are honestly we've spoken about these are the endless meetings that we had to say the endless meetings that we had to say the endless meetings that we had to say yeah wouldn't it be great if x wouldn't

yeah wouldn't it be great if x wouldn't yeah wouldn't it be great if x wouldn't it be awesome if we could do y and then

it be awesome if we could do y and then it be awesome if we could do y and then we come think about like requirements

we come think about like requirements we come think about like requirements right how do we what did we say again

right how do we what did we say again right how do we what did we say again and we had to write it all again so

and we had to write it all again so and we had to write it all again so but yeah even from our initial public

but yeah even from our initial public but yeah even from our initial public release from February we took a ton of

release from February we took a ton of release from February we took a ton of research we did loads of meetings and

research we did loads of meetings and research we did loads of meetings and then Amsterdam again I took a bunch of then Amsterdam again I took a bunch of then Amsterdam again I took a bunch of stuff back and get more feedback so it's

stuff back and get more feedback so it's stuff back and get more feedback so it's all it's all that honestly if you came

all it's all that honestly if you came all it's all that honestly if you came up and said to us I don't think you have

up and said to us I don't think you have up and said to us I don't think you have this we probably do

this we probably do this we probably do somewhere

somewhere somewhere I'm keeping glad's hands full

I'm sure the backlog is immense with uh I'm sure the backlog is immense with uh what you guys are building and yeah I'm

what you guys are building and yeah I'm what you guys are building and yeah I'm excited to see uh you know uh product

excited to see uh you know uh product excited to see uh you know uh product launch after product launch

launch after product launch launch after product launch we got a ton of PR coming up as well uh

we got a ton of PR coming up as well uh we got a ton of PR coming up as well uh we've got a number of clients that have we've got a number of clients that have we've got a number of clients that have just been on there very recently as well just been on there very recently as well just been on there very recently as well and as I said we've not even been alive

and as I said we've not even been alive and as I said we've not even been alive live for a year yet so we're looking

live for a year yet so we're looking live for a year yet so we're looking we're looking good so early days uh guys

we're looking good so early days uh guys we're looking good so early days uh guys uh thank you so much for doing this um

uh thank you so much for doing this um uh thank you so much for doing this um it's always a pleasure chatting at the

it's always a pleasure chatting at the it's always a pleasure chatting at the conferences uh I get excited I mean our

conferences uh I get excited I mean our conferences uh I get excited I mean our software are kind of similar in a lot of

software are kind of similar in a lot of software are kind of similar in a lot of ways and you know a lot comes down to

ways and you know a lot comes down to ways and you know a lot comes down to Big Data how can people get a hold of

Big Data how can people get a hold of Big Data how can people get a hold of both of you both of you both of you so you can either reach out to us in

so you can either reach out to us in so you can either reach out to us in general uh with the sales at general uh with the sales at general uh with the sales at referral.com or www.refron.com or um

referral.com or www.refron.com or um referral.com or www.refron.com or um find us on LinkedIn just find David

find us on LinkedIn just find David find us on LinkedIn just find David Harris Under referon And also finder

Harris Under referon And also finder Harris Under referon And also finder Rico as well buy us on LinkedIn and

Rico as well buy us on LinkedIn and Rico as well buy us on LinkedIn and username uh at passionfruit at

username uh at passionfruit at username uh at passionfruit at passionfruit that's that's it that's his

passionfruit that's that's it that's his passionfruit that's that's it that's his Twitter handle Twitter handle Twitter handle um um um how does this joke become more

how does this joke become more how does this joke become more public

public public if you don't have a if you don't have

if you don't have a if you don't have if you don't have a if you don't have the Twitter handle we're gonna we're the Twitter handle we're gonna we're the Twitter handle we're gonna we're gonna do a GoFundMe too bye yeah yeah

gonna do a GoFundMe too bye yeah yeah gonna do a GoFundMe too bye yeah yeah that's it

I'll see you probably speak to you at I'll see you probably speak to you at Sigma Malta

Sigma Malta Sigma Malta um I don't think we'll be there in the

um I don't think we'll be there in the um I don't think we'll be there in the September conference but uh I'm sure

September conference but uh I'm sure September conference but uh I'm sure we'll see you at Superman it'll be one

we'll see you at Superman it'll be one we'll see you at Superman it'll be one show after another for sure and I I'm

show after another for sure and I I'm show after another for sure and I I'm looking forward to see things get bigger

looking forward to see things get bigger looking forward to see things get bigger more clients and

more clients and more clients and um yeah it's just uh it's very

um yeah it's just uh it's very um yeah it's just uh it's very interesting to watch what you're doing interesting to watch what you're doing interesting to watch what you're doing and like I said once I saw the product I

and like I said once I saw the product I and like I said once I saw the product I was like oh we gotta we gotta get a

was like oh we gotta we gotta get a was like oh we gotta we gotta get a little bit more sharper so we are not

little bit more sharper so we are not little bit more sharper so we are not competition by any means but uh what you

competition by any means but uh what you competition by any means but uh what you guys do in school work together yeah we

guys do in school work together yeah we guys do in school work together yeah we work together but it inspires me to uh

work together but it inspires me to uh work together but it inspires me to uh to be uh very top of Mind very serious

to be uh very top of Mind very serious to be uh very top of Mind very serious we have competition and uh Vlad you're

we have competition and uh Vlad you're we have competition and uh Vlad you're right it keeps us sharp and it's what we

right it keeps us sharp and it's what we right it keeps us sharp and it's what we need to push things forward

need to push things forward need to push things forward yeah okay well thank you thank you John

yeah okay well thank you thank you John yeah okay well thank you thank you John for your time and for organizing thank

for your time and for organizing thank for your time and for organizing thank you guys Vlad I'll speak to you okay

thank you listeners I'd like to ask for thank you listeners I'd like to ask for a favor which is if you can leave a

a favor which is if you can leave a a favor which is if you can leave a five-star rating and a review wherever

five-star rating and a review wherever five-star rating and a review wherever you listen to this podcast this helps us

you listen to this podcast this helps us you listen to this podcast this helps us get discovered by others and we want to

get discovered by others and we want to get discovered by others and we want to make this the best affiliate marketing

make this the best affiliate marketing make this the best affiliate marketing podcast just for you