Affiliate Manager Challenges with Zach Measures from Everflow

I am a champion of affiliate managers I I am a champion of affiliate managers I do think they're unsung heroes within

do think they're unsung heroes within do think they're unsung heroes within our industry you know because they're

our industry you know because they're our industry you know because they're often juggling a lot often Affiliates as

often juggling a lot often Affiliates as often juggling a lot often Affiliates as a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be

a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be doing very well within the program but

doing very well within the program but doing very well within the program but usually it's something like 10% so often

usually it's something like 10% so often usually it's something like 10% so often they'll report into VP of growth or

they'll report into VP of growth or they'll report into VP of growth or forance marketing C and all the rest of

forance marketing C and all the rest of forance marketing C and all the rest of it and I think the challenge often those

it and I think the challenge often those it and I think the challenge often those people are quite data lit think

people are quite data lit think people are quite data lit think sometimes it's just about getting access

sometimes it's just about getting access sometimes it's just about getting access to that information

to that information to that information just and and automating it just so you

just and and automating it just so you just and and automating it just so you can say because often affiliate managers

can say because often affiliate managers can say because often affiliate managers have to have this kind of dual aspect of

have to have this kind of dual aspect of have to have this kind of dual aspect of them would be okay I've got to be the

them would be okay I've got to be the them would be okay I've got to be the sort of person that can get on a phone sort of person that can get on a phone sort of person that can get on a phone call and maybe deal with some issue that

call and maybe deal with some issue that call and maybe deal with some issue that the client's having and resolve it in a

the client's having and resolve it in a the client's having and resolve it in a you know with using all the kind of soft

you know with using all the kind of soft you know with using all the kind of soft skills and emotional intelligence and

skills and emotional intelligence and skills and emotional intelligence and everything like that but then I need to

everything like that but then I need to everything like that but then I need to maybe WR SQL queries on the back of that

maybe WR SQL queries on the back of that maybe WR SQL queries on the back of that to Crunch the number to run a report to

to Crunch the number to run a report to to Crunch the number to run a report to understand what went wrong and why and I

understand what went wrong and why and I understand what went wrong and why and I think I think yeah you've hit that on

think I think yeah you've hit that on think I think yeah you've hit that on the head what a lot of people are the head what a lot of people are the head what a lot of people are looking for is for computers software

looking for is for computers software looking for is for computers software sold and automate that problem so that

sold and automate that problem so that sold and automate that problem so that they can focus on things that machines

they can focus on things that machines they can focus on things that machines can't do very well which is have these

can't do very well which is have these can't do very well which is have these conversations I'm John Wright and you're

conversations I'm John Wright and you're conversations I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business

listening to affiliate bi the business listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing

intelligence and affiliate marketing intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by

St welcome to the affiliate podcast St welcome to the affiliate podcast today we're chatting with Zack measures

today we're chatting with Zack measures today we're chatting with Zack measures he's the commercial director EMA uh at

he's the commercial director EMA uh at he's the commercial director EMA uh at everflow that's everflow doio and and

everflow that's everflow doio and and everflow that's everflow doio and and he's got around 20 years experience in

he's got around 20 years experience in he's got around 20 years experience in different parts of affiliate marketing a

different parts of affiliate marketing a different parts of affiliate marketing a lot of experience uh Zach welcome to the

lot of experience uh Zach welcome to the lot of experience uh Zach welcome to the show well thanks for having me John nice

show well thanks for having me John nice show well thanks for having me John nice to see you again we've uh spoken online

to see you again we've uh spoken online to see you again we've uh spoken online we've never met in person so uh came

we've never met in person so uh came we've never met in person so uh came close in Brighton we did indeed yeah

close in Brighton we did indeed yeah close in Brighton we did indeed yeah yeah thanks for having me on appreciate yeah thanks for having me on appreciate yeah thanks for having me on appreciate that so I'm going to skip my first

that so I'm going to skip my first that so I'm going to skip my first question because we were just chat and I

question because we were just chat and I question because we were just chat and I wanted to ask your experience of how you

wanted to ask your experience of how you wanted to ask your experience of how you got involved in affiliate marketing and

got involved in affiliate marketing and got involved in affiliate marketing and when I look at your LinkedIn profile when I look at your LinkedIn profile when I look at your LinkedIn profile you've got a lot of Rich experience

you've got a lot of Rich experience you've got a lot of Rich experience touching on almost everything I like I

touching on almost everything I like I touching on almost everything I like I kind of wish I had your collection of

kind of wish I had your collection of kind of wish I had your collection of experience to add to my skill set so I

experience to add to my skill set so I experience to add to my skill set so I just want you to uh share that well the

just want you to uh share that well the just want you to uh share that well the danger of that is that you can be jack danger of that is that you can be jack danger of that is that you can be jack of all trades master of none right so uh

of all trades master of none right so uh of all trades master of none right so uh yeah I mean I I kind the broad sort of

yeah I mean I I kind the broad sort of yeah I mean I I kind the broad sort of theme of of um what I or I I guess my

theme of of um what I or I I guess my theme of of um what I or I I guess my Dre today really mainly helping us

Dre today really mainly helping us Dre today really mainly helping us performance-based company expand into

performance-based company expand into performance-based company expand into Europe um and this is going to date me

Europe um and this is going to date me Europe um and this is going to date me but I I really kind of cut my teeth for

but I I really kind of cut my teeth for but I I really kind of cut my teeth for a a a Data Business in London that I

a a a Data Business in London that I a a a Data Business in London that I worked for where I was a media buyer and

worked for where I was a media buyer and worked for where I was a media buyer and it was um a coed business so sort of

it was um a coed business so sort of it was um a coed business so sort of similar to something like I'm trying to

similar to something like I'm trying to similar to something like I'm trying to think um Publishers house in the US you

think um Publishers house in the US you think um Publishers house in the US you know like a a big coed prize draw sign

know like a a big coed prize draw sign know like a a big coed prize draw sign and it was a very very profitable

and it was a very very profitable and it was a very very profitable business we ran from sort of like 17

business we ran from sort of like 17 business we ran from sort of like 17 people in a basement up to sort of 270

people in a basement up to sort of 270 people in a basement up to sort of 270 people and we floated on the alternative

people and we floated on the alternative people and we floated on the alternative uh Market in London um but that was

uh Market in London um but that was uh Market in London um but that was great because I was a media buyer and I

great because I was a media buyer and I great because I was a media buyer and I was buying traffic from and again this

was buying traffic from and again this was buying traffic from and again this is going to date me from uh places like

is going to date me from uh places like is going to date me from uh places like Myspace and I was buying it on a CPM

Myspace and I was buying it on a CPM Myspace and I was buying it on a CPM basis I was looking for UK traffic we

basis I was looking for UK traffic we basis I was looking for UK traffic we would spend money on a CPM basis buy

would spend money on a CPM basis buy would spend money on a CPM basis buy traffic in people would go into this

traffic in people would go into this traffic in people would go into this data flow data flow data flow and sign up for a prize draw and then

and sign up for a prize draw and then and sign up for a prize draw and then they'd enter like a tick box to say yes

they'd enter like a tick box to say yes they'd enter like a tick box to say yes they should be contacted by these they should be contacted by these they should be contacted by these advertis who would pay us fee for that

advertis who would pay us fee for that advertis who would pay us fee for that so for every sort of you know $150 that

so for every sort of you know $150 that so for every sort of you know $150 that we spent in media buying we know that a

we spent in media buying we know that a we spent in media buying we know that a consumer would generate us $2 or

consumer would generate us $2 or consumer would generate us $2 or something like that what I discovered in

something like that what I discovered in something like that what I discovered in time was that okay I went to the states

time was that okay I went to the states time was that okay I went to the states um for adtech in San Francisco and I met

um for adtech in San Francisco and I met um for adtech in San Francisco and I met a number of companies that said yeah

a number of companies that said yeah a number of companies that said yeah we've got uh UK traffic but it Remnant

we've got uh UK traffic but it Remnant we've got uh UK traffic but it Remnant and so you can buy it for us on a CPA

and so you can buy it for us on a CPA and so you can buy it for us on a CPA and this kind of led me into a whole and this kind of led me into a whole and this kind of led me into a whole journey of then working with lots of us

journey of then working with lots of us journey of then working with lots of us companies that were looking to expand um

companies that were looking to expand um companies that were looking to expand um and at that time kind of email was very

and at that time kind of email was very and at that time kind of email was very big and so it's kind of been a big and so it's kind of been a big and so it's kind of been a continuation of that really so I've continuation of that really so I've continuation of that really so I've worked for a number of startups and

worked for a number of startups and worked for a number of startups and everflow is sort of within that mold as

everflow is sort of within that mold as everflow is sort of within that mold as well we are an attribution uh tracking

well we are an attribution uh tracking well we are an attribution uh tracking platform based in San Francisco we have

platform based in San Francisco we have platform based in San Francisco we have around a thousand clients um and

around a thousand clients um and around a thousand clients um and essentially what we do is provide a way

essentially what we do is provide a way essentially what we do is provide a way for people to create manage and scale

for people to create manage and scale for people to create manage and scale their own partner activity we call it or

their own partner activity we call it or their own partner activity we call it or affiliate activity and other people

affiliate activity and other people affiliate activity and other people might know it okay I definitely have

might know it okay I definitely have might know it okay I definitely have more questions now uh just from that Co

more questions now uh just from that Co more questions now uh just from that Co so I want to jump in the first question

so I want to jump in the first question so I want to jump in the first question I've got set up which is you know what's

I've got set up which is you know what's I've got set up which is you know what's been going on with Google just basically

been going on with Google just basically been going on with Google just basically trashing affiliate site I think we're

trashing affiliate site I think we're trashing affiliate site I think we're seeing more Affiliates lose market share

seeing more Affiliates lose market share seeing more Affiliates lose market share to e-commerce so I want to ask what are

to e-commerce so I want to ask what are to e-commerce so I want to ask what are you seeing on your side of the fence

you seeing on your side of the fence you seeing on your side of the fence given that you've got a bit of a view of

given that you've got a bit of a view of given that you've got a bit of a view of affiliation as well as the affiliate

affiliation as well as the affiliate affiliation as well as the affiliate programs and the network well Google is

programs and the network well Google is programs and the network well Google is such a big gorilla right that you can

such a big gorilla right that you can such a big gorilla right that you can only see part of of part of the Beast

only see part of of part of the Beast only see part of of part of the Beast sort of within any one business right so

sort of within any one business right so sort of within any one business right so I think you mentioned that you speak a

I think you mentioned that you speak a I think you mentioned that you speak a lot to affiliate to a SEO sort of

lot to affiliate to a SEO sort of lot to affiliate to a SEO sort of affiliate driving traffic on behalf of

affiliate driving traffic on behalf of affiliate driving traffic on behalf of their advertisers we see uh a small part

their advertisers we see uh a small part their advertisers we see uh a small part of the landscape with that and in the

of the landscape with that and in the of the landscape with that and in the sense that to take a step back I suppose

sense that to take a step back I suppose sense that to take a step back I suppose the debates that are talking you know or

the debates that are talking you know or the debates that are talking you know or going on with Google obviously the big

going on with Google obviously the big going on with Google obviously the big one that Google's talking about is the

one that Google's talking about is the one that Google's talking about is the deprecation or removal of these third

deprecation or removal of these third deprecation or removal of these third party cookies that originally was slated

party cookies that originally was slated party cookies that originally was slated for 2024 now moving to

for 2024 now moving to for 2024 now moving to 2025 um and and obviously like your

2025 um and and obviously like your 2025 um and and obviously like your audience is sophisticated but for those

audience is sophisticated but for those audience is sophisticated but for those that don't know it's really kind of

that don't know it's really kind of that don't know it's really kind of about moving you know moving away from

about moving you know moving away from about moving you know moving away from third party election and that is kind of

third party election and that is kind of third party election and that is kind of you got first party bookies which is

you got first party bookies which is you got first party bookies which is basically the company having a direct

basically the company having a direct basically the company having a direct one-to-one relationship with the Denture

one-to-one relationship with the Denture one-to-one relationship with the Denture consumer consumer consumer or that data being collected indirectly

or that data being collected indirectly or that data being collected indirectly through another party which is third

through another party which is third through another party which is third parties and that's kind of forcing

parties and that's kind of forcing parties and that's kind of forcing people to have a more direct people to have a more direct people to have a more direct relationship with the end owner of the

relationship with the end owner of the relationship with the end owner of the product which we call an Advertiser

product which we call an Advertiser product which we call an Advertiser within our sort of vacula within within

within our sort of vacula within within within our sort of vacula within within everflow and what we see is a couple of

everflow and what we see is a couple of everflow and what we see is a couple of different things I would say two big

different things I would say two big different things I would say two big trends one is that more and more

trends one is that more and more trends one is that more and more Affiliates are moving to become media

Affiliates are moving to become media Affiliates are moving to become media buyers rather than just mere Brokers so

buyers rather than just mere Brokers so buyers rather than just mere Brokers so the a lot of people are very kind of

the a lot of people are very kind of the a lot of people are very kind of leery of kind of affiliate traffic you

leery of kind of affiliate traffic you leery of kind of affiliate traffic you know it can be painted with this oh it's

know it can be painted with this oh it's know it can be painted with this oh it's fraudulent traffic I don't know where

fraudulent traffic I don't know where fraudulent traffic I don't know where you know where it's coming from uh

you know where it's coming from uh you know where it's coming from uh concerns about very sophisticated fraud

concerns about very sophisticated fraud concerns about very sophisticated fraud and so on um and so lots of Affiliates

and so on um and so lots of Affiliates and so on um and so lots of Affiliates now have moved to becoming pure media

now have moved to becoming pure media now have moved to becoming pure media buyers because Google is good traffic

buyers because Google is good traffic buyers because Google is good traffic also you know outside of Google you've

also you know outside of Google you've also you know outside of Google you've got people buying traffic on Facebook

got people buying traffic on Facebook got people buying traffic on Facebook and Tik Tok which is obviously huge and

and Tik Tok which is obviously huge and and Tik Tok which is obviously huge and and so on and then that's one problem

and so on and then that's one problem and so on and then that's one problem that or one Cort of users that that we

that or one Cort of users that that we that or one Cort of users that that we deal with you mentioned you were deal with you mentioned you were deal with you mentioned you were speaking to volume earlier who are

speaking to volume earlier who are speaking to volume earlier who are another great tracking platform that

another great tracking platform that another great tracking platform that really helped media bu very well in that

really helped media bu very well in that really helped media bu very well in that space and then the other sort of

space and then the other sort of space and then the other sort of challenge that we see all that we sold

challenge that we see all that we sold challenge that we see all that we sold for potential customers in that is

for potential customers in that is for potential customers in that is people having um a very fragmented view

people having um a very fragmented view people having um a very fragmented view of all of their Performance Marketing

of all of their Performance Marketing of all of their Performance Marketing channel the affiliate industry kind of

channel the affiliate industry kind of channel the affiliate industry kind of renamed Affiliates as partners of late

renamed Affiliates as partners of late renamed Affiliates as partners of late right and that can be some people will

right and that can be some people will right and that can be some people will say well that's just window dressing say well that's just window dressing say well that's just window dressing they're still affiliate you know why are they're still affiliate you know why are they're still affiliate you know why are we calling them part but I think there's

we calling them part but I think there's we calling them part but I think there's actually more and more weight to it

actually more and more weight to it actually more and more weight to it because now Partners can include bilia 1

because now Partners can include bilia 1 because now Partners can include bilia 1 to 500 influencers 1 to 500 but also

to 500 influencers 1 to 500 but also to 500 influencers 1 to 500 but also Google Facebook Tik Tok and what we're

Google Facebook Tik Tok and what we're Google Facebook Tik Tok and what we're starting to see now is this sort of

starting to see now is this sort of starting to see now is this sort of convergence of someone let's say like a

convergence of someone let's say like a convergence of someone let's say like a a of grow or um you know a VP of

a of grow or um you know a VP of a of grow or um you know a VP of marketing who has uh Google under his or

marketing who has uh Google under his or marketing who has uh Google under his or her kind of remit now we want often

her kind of remit now we want often her kind of remit now we want often they're coming to edlow and saying Hey

they're coming to edlow and saying Hey they're coming to edlow and saying Hey Google says one number Facebook says

Google says one number Facebook says Google says one number Facebook says another number and you know Tik Tok says

another number and you know Tik Tok says another number and you know Tik Tok says another number we can't Stitch all of

another number we can't Stitch all of another number we can't Stitch all of these things together um you know we're

these things together um you know we're these things together um you know we're using something like looker or segment

using something like looker or segment using something like looker or segment or another bi tools how can we

or another bi tools how can we or another bi tools how can we centralize and aggregate all of this so

centralize and aggregate all of this so centralize and aggregate all of this so that we get one unified dashboard of all

that we get one unified dashboard of all that we get one unified dashboard of all our performance Mark B so by using

our performance Mark B so by using our performance Mark B so by using something like server server post or

something like server server post or something like server server post or we've got called JavaScript SDK which is

we've got called JavaScript SDK which is we've got called JavaScript SDK which is just a line of code that sits on the the

just a line of code that sits on the the just a line of code that sits on the the thing you want to track you can get this

thing you want to track you can get this thing you want to track you can get this unified view because it's it's confusing

unified view because it's it's confusing unified view because it's it's confusing right we're in the industry you've been right we're in the industry you've been right we're in the industry you've been in industry for a long time you know a

in industry for a long time you know a in industry for a long time you know a lot of people are like okay I'm just

lot of people are like okay I'm just lot of people are like okay I'm just going to put this live and hope it works

going to put this live and hope it works going to put this live and hope it works and then they start to get different

and then they start to get different and then they start to get different numbers and then that for the sort of

numbers and then that for the sort of numbers and then that for the sort of problems we game and that really just

problems we game and that really just problems we game and that really just compounds unless you

compounds unless you compounds unless you solve yeah I agree um talking about

solve yeah I agree um talking about solve yeah I agree um talking about partners that was actually one of the partners that was actually one of the partners that was actually one of the questions I had where it's like do you

questions I had where it's like do you questions I had where it's like do you see uh Affiliates becoming more Partners

see uh Affiliates becoming more Partners see uh Affiliates becoming more Partners rather than just the standard rather than just the standard rather than just the standard affiliation model where it's like I get affiliation model where it's like I get affiliation model where it's like I get the tracking link and I think you're

the tracking link and I think you're the tracking link and I think you're kind of alluding to something where it

kind of alluding to something where it kind of alluding to something where it is like what more can we do than just

is like what more can we do than just is like what more can we do than just send you traffic like how can we do like

send you traffic like how can we do like send you traffic like how can we do like C- branded stuff and one of the

C- branded stuff and one of the C- branded stuff and one of the questions my next question written was

questions my next question written was questions my next question written was like do you think landing pages will

like do you think landing pages will like do you think landing pages will become more important where the landing

become more important where the landing become more important where the landing page is an implied partnership where

page is an implied partnership where page is an implied partnership where it's not just a tracking link with all

it's not just a tracking link with all it's not just a tracking link with all this code it is like a co-branded

this code it is like a co-branded this code it is like a co-branded landing page that says hey we work

landing page that says hey we work landing page that says hey we work together the the trust levels higher and

together the the trust levels higher and together the the trust levels higher and are you seeing more of this already

are you seeing more of this already are you seeing more of this already happening yeah I mean I I think actually

happening yeah I mean I I think actually happening yeah I mean I I think actually going back to these Affiliates the the

going back to these Affiliates the the going back to these Affiliates the the the very small part that we see right

the very small part that we see right the very small part that we see right because um like I said Google's such a

because um like I said Google's such a because um like I said Google's such a big big big beast too big to get into any one

beast too big to get into any one beast too big to get into any one company's view but for particularly with

company's view but for particularly with company's view but for particularly with the ey gaming space and things like that

the ey gaming space and things like that the ey gaming space and things like that it's when people are media buying it's when people are media buying it's when people are media buying they're using something direct linking

they're using something direct linking they're using something direct linking sending that traffic directly to um the

sending that traffic directly to um the sending that traffic directly to um the the advertisement so of landing pages

the advertisement so of landing pages the advertisement so of landing pages obviously you know everything's more

obviously you know everything's more obviously you know everything's more competitive landing pages need to be

competitive landing pages need to be competitive landing pages need to be mobile enabled they need to perform well

mobile enabled they need to perform well mobile enabled they need to perform well reload time all the rest of it um the

reload time all the rest of it um the reload time all the rest of it um the big theme I think around that really is

big theme I think around that really is big theme I think around that really is and what you were saw asking within that

and what you were saw asking within that and what you were saw asking within that I think is transparency right everyone's

I think is transparency right everyone's I think is transparency right everyone's got so much data at their fingertip now

got so much data at their fingertip now got so much data at their fingertip now Affiliates or media need to add value to

Affiliates or media need to add value to Affiliates or media need to add value to that and one way that we see that beyond

that and one way that we see that beyond that and one way that we see that beyond the landing page and that kind of idea

the landing page and that kind of idea the landing page and that kind of idea of transparency breaking down whatever

of transparency breaking down whatever of transparency breaking down whatever the years of flow is into what we call

the years of flow is into what we call the years of flow is into what we call events within more a flow and so that

events within more a flow and so that events within more a flow and so that might be let's say for example you are

might be let's say for example you are might be let's say for example you are sofware as a service let's say an

sofware as a service let's say an sofware as a service let's say an accounting tool or something like that

accounting tool or something like that accounting tool or something like that someone's searching for um let's say you

someone's searching for um let's say you someone's searching for um let's say you are Vio or um quickbox or something like

are Vio or um quickbox or something like are Vio or um quickbox or something like that if someone's searching how do I

that if someone's searching how do I that if someone's searching how do I learn about online accounting and they

learn about online accounting and they learn about online accounting and they sign up for a demo the keyword that

sign up for a demo the keyword that sign up for a demo the keyword that they've inputed there and then they've

they've inputed there and then they've they've inputed there and then they've signed up for a demo Google will fire

signed up for a demo Google will fire signed up for a demo Google will fire that convers you back and say Here's a

that convers you back and say Here's a that convers you back and say Here's a conversion right we think this is good

conversion right we think this is good conversion right we think this is good we're going to optimize this keyword

we're going to optimize this keyword we're going to optimize this keyword unless you have the ability to place um

unless you have the ability to place um unless you have the ability to place um post back or tracking further down into

post back or tracking further down into post back or tracking further down into that user flow

that user flow that user flow you could be rewarding Google or not

you could be rewarding Google or not you could be rewarding Google or not very qualified users that are coming to

very qualified users that are coming to very qualified users that are coming to the front door they're knocking but

the front door they're knocking but the front door they're knocking but you're saying actually this isn't the you're saying actually this isn't the you're saying actually this isn't the kind of user that we want so things like

kind of user that we want so things like kind of user that we want so things like event level tracking link to keywords

event level tracking link to keywords event level tracking link to keywords within Google or very specific landing

within Google or very specific landing within Google or very specific landing pages where you're asking qualifying

pages where you're asking qualifying pages where you're asking qualifying questions um can get all of that data to

questions um can get all of that data to questions um can get all of that data to help qualify how you follow up with that

help qualify how you follow up with that help qualify how you follow up with that consumer you know because it's all about

consumer you know because it's all about consumer you know because it's all about relevance for a consumer isn't it so you

relevance for a consumer isn't it so you relevance for a consumer isn't it so you know if your software as a service you

know if your software as a service you know if your software as a service you know a lot of people are just SPF know a lot of people are just SPF know a lot of people are just SPF finding you know when they're looking

finding you know when they're looking finding you know when they're looking around okay we're we're going down the

around okay we're we're going down the around okay we're we're going down the tangent route of questions so let's say

tangent route of questions so let's say tangent route of questions so let's say we're going to do a landing page but we're going to do a landing page but we're going to do a landing page but rather than have it hosted on the

rather than have it hosted on the rather than have it hosted on the operator side we're going to host it on

operator side we're going to host it on operator side we're going to host it on our side first before we send uh that

our side first before we send uh that our side first before we send uh that click conversion over um and you mention

click conversion over um and you mention click conversion over um and you mention like you know we're we're going down a

like you know we're we're going down a like you know we're we're going down a path of away from third party tracking

path of away from third party tracking path of away from third party tracking to first party would you say there's

to first party would you say there's to first party would you say there's first party collection of data that's a

first party collection of data that's a first party collection of data that's a not just a possibility but something a

not just a possibility but something a not just a possibility but something a Philly should consider going hey before

Philly should consider going hey before Philly should consider going hey before we send you to this it's like let's we send you to this it's like let's we send you to this it's like let's pre-qualify you or maybe you're gonna

pre-qualify you or maybe you're gonna pre-qualify you or maybe you're gonna have like a lead capture for him are you have like a lead capture for him are you have like a lead capture for him are you seeing more of this or or would you say

seeing more of this or or would you say seeing more of this or or would you say that more philage should be thinking of

that more philage should be thinking of that more philage should be thinking of this I definitely think more philage

this I definitely think more philage this I definitely think more philage should be thinking the advertiser is not

should be thinking the advertiser is not should be thinking the advertiser is not buying leads really they want to buy

buying leads really they want to buy buying leads really they want to buy users so you know you might say well

users so you know you might say well users so you know you might say well we've sent them 100 leads and that's

we've sent them 100 leads and that's we've sent them 100 leads and that's great and to perhaps a unsophisticated

great and to perhaps a unsophisticated great and to perhaps a unsophisticated Advertiser Advertiser Advertiser that maybe look good for them because

that maybe look good for them because that maybe look good for them because they've got 100 lead but if only three

they've got 100 lead but if only three they've got 100 lead but if only three of those lead convert that's a waste of

of those lead convert that's a waste of of those lead convert that's a waste of everyone's time in terms of trying to

everyone's time in terms of trying to everyone's time in terms of trying to convert that lead back in So

convert that lead back in So convert that lead back in So pre-qualifying questions pre- targeting

pre-qualifying questions pre- targeting pre-qualifying questions pre- targeting that happens even prior to the click if

that happens even prior to the click if that happens even prior to the click if you're buying on Facebook or something

you're buying on Facebook or something you're buying on Facebook or something similar the end of the day like Philip

similar the end of the day like Philip similar the end of the day like Philip Cotler said you know a a a person

Cotler said you know a a a person Cotler said you know a a a person doesn't buy a drill or they buy the hole

doesn't buy a drill or they buy the hole doesn't buy a drill or they buy the hole you know and that's what people want

you know and that's what people want you know and that's what people want okay because maybe what you could also

okay because maybe what you could also okay because maybe what you could also do is like I mean S2s tracking would be

do is like I mean S2s tracking would be do is like I mean S2s tracking would be perfect for that lead form and then you

perfect for that lead form and then you perfect for that lead form and then you send the click over but if the user has

send the click over but if the user has send the click over but if the user has filled out a certain amount of filled out a certain amount of filled out a certain amount of information maybe you could either information maybe you could either information maybe you could either pre-qualify or maybe you realize they're

pre-qualify or maybe you realize they're pre-qualify or maybe you realize they're in a certain type of ICP you could

in a certain type of ICP you could in a certain type of ICP you could actually give them a not just an S2s

actually give them a not just an S2s actually give them a not just an S2s tracker but a whole different one that

tracker but a whole different one that tracker but a whole different one that says hey we think you're in this

says hey we think you're in this says hey we think you're in this different type of buyer Market or you're

different type of buyer Market or you're different type of buyer Market or you're this type of ICP maybe we can actually

this type of ICP maybe we can actually this type of ICP maybe we can actually give you a different link um I'm just

give you a different link um I'm just give you a different link um I'm just thinking out loud this could be

thinking out loud this could be thinking out loud this could be I I just believe that most Affiliates

I I just believe that most Affiliates I I just believe that most Affiliates don't do these things but I think the

don't do these things but I think the don't do these things but I think the ones that are top of the food chain are

ones that are top of the food chain are ones that are top of the food chain are the companies that think of things like

the companies that think of things like the companies that think of things like this or definitely definitely I mean we

this or definitely definitely I mean we this or definitely definitely I mean we we have like I said about a thousand

we have like I said about a thousand we have like I said about a thousand customers with ow and it's a very

customers with ow and it's a very customers with ow and it's a very disperate range of customers actually so

disperate range of customers actually so disperate range of customers actually so we have you know Banks we have finex we

we have you know Banks we have finex we we have you know Banks we have finex we have lots of gaming companies so people

have lots of gaming companies so people have lots of gaming companies so people like uh trading companies like trading

like uh trading companies like trading like uh trading companies like trading 212 and and things like this and then um

212 and and things like this and then um 212 and and things like this and then um yeah you know commonweal Bank of

yeah you know commonweal Bank of yeah you know commonweal Bank of Australia and so on and then we also

Australia and so on and then we also Australia and so on and then we also have because we completely uh have what

have because we completely uh have what have because we completely uh have what we call different instances within workf

we call different instances within workf we call different instances within workf flow completely separate ways of using

flow completely separate ways of using flow completely separate ways of using it but it's not a shared platform each

it but it's not a shared platform each it but it's not a shared platform each each customer had their own instance and

each customer had their own instance and each customer had their own instance and a standalone W Garden version of ml we

a standalone W Garden version of ml we a standalone W Garden version of ml we also have people that use ml for in fact

also have people that use ml for in fact also have people that use ml for in fact dating and things like that where um

dating and things like that where um dating and things like that where um they are very very sophisticated Market

they are very very sophisticated Market they are very very sophisticated Market at these agent because it's it's

at these agent because it's it's at these agent because it's it's complicated more like I gaming where you

complicated more like I gaming where you complicated more like I gaming where you might have different different landing might have different different landing might have different different landing pages for different states for example

pages for different states for example pages for different states for example you know if there's different rulings in

you know if there's different rulings in you know if there's different rulings in different states or different countes

different states or different countes different states or different countes then a user clicks on that they can then

then a user clicks on that they can then then a user clicks on that they can then be directed to that landing page

be directed to that landing page be directed to that landing page relevant for them so whether that's in

relevant for them so whether that's in relevant for them so whether that's in their local language for example well

their local language for example well their local language for example well not just a Spanish page but maybe you

not just a Spanish page but maybe you not just a Spanish page but maybe you have someone that's shown in b or

have someone that's shown in b or have someone that's shown in b or Catalan you know they're in Barcelona or

Catalan you know they're in Barcelona or Catalan you know they're in Barcelona or bbow whatever it is um yeah you can

bbow whatever it is um yeah you can bbow whatever it is um yeah you can start to use systems very cleverly for

start to use systems very cleverly for start to use systems very cleverly for that collect data and then again

that collect data and then again that collect data and then again depending on the vertical the usual

depending on the vertical the usual depending on the vertical the usual evolution of people that have multiple

evolution of people that have multiple evolution of people that have multiple buyings lead buyers is that they will

buyings lead buyers is that they will buyings lead buyers is that they will then usually sort of upgrade in the

then usually sort of upgrade in the then usually sort of upgrade in the evolution of that to something called

evolution of that to something called evolution of that to something called like a a lead management system got

like a a lead management system got like a a lead management system got familiar with so lmss where they can

familiar with so lmss where they can familiar with so lmss where they can they can then have a pin tree that goes

they can then have a pin tree that goes they can then have a pin tree that goes out to multiple buyers so let's say for

out to multiple buyers so let's say for out to multiple buyers so let's say for example you are company that's running

example you are company that's running example you are company that's running activity for insurance company one

activity for insurance company one activity for insurance company one Whatever someone comes in this is this

Whatever someone comes in this is this Whatever someone comes in this is this is a high value user that is interested

is a high value user that is interested is a high value user that is interested in getting a new insurance home

in getting a new insurance home in getting a new insurance home insurance form or something completed

insurance form or something completed insurance form or something completed you have one Advertiser and that works

you have one Advertiser and that works you have one Advertiser and that works well soon you realize well actually

well soon you realize well actually well soon you realize well actually there's two or three advertisers that there's two or three advertisers that there's two or three advertisers that want exactly that type of customer now

want exactly that type of customer now want exactly that type of customer now what you can do with other software is

what you can do with other software is what you can do with other software is you can say great so there's companies

you can say great so there's companies you can say great so there's companies like lead prosper and data ball and a

like lead prosper and data ball and a like lead prosper and data ball and a bunch of other guys um lead by is a very

bunch of other guys um lead by is a very bunch of other guys um lead by is a very good one in the UK where you can say

good one in the UK where you can say good one in the UK where you can say great now I've got one consumer I'm

great now I've got one consumer I'm great now I've got one consumer I'm going to send that consumer to buy a one

going to send that consumer to buy a one going to send that consumer to buy a one wait half an hour then same consumer to

wait half an hour then same consumer to wait half an hour then same consumer to buy a two buy a three and so on so often

buy a two buy a three and so on so often buy a two buy a three and so on so often that could be a way that an affiliate

that could be a way that an affiliate that could be a way that an affiliate agency adds more value and you know

agency adds more value and you know agency adds more value and you know grows and changes as a business now

grows and changes as a business now grows and changes as a business now we're talking about a lot of things that we're talking about a lot of things that we're talking about a lot of things that are very deep where you know you're

are very deep where you know you're are very deep where you know you're getting really deep into the buyer getting really deep into the buyer getting really deep into the buyer journey and I want to take a step back

journey and I want to take a step back journey and I want to take a step back when we started talking about how Google

when we started talking about how Google when we started talking about how Google was messing everything up uh would you

was messing everything up uh would you was messing everything up uh would you say that affiliate sites moving forward

say that affiliate sites moving forward say that affiliate sites moving forward need to be more focused as a product so

need to be more focused as a product so need to be more focused as a product so we're we're past the days of being just

we're we're past the days of being just we're we're past the days of being just another information portal because

another information portal because another information portal because anyone can set up an information portal anyone can set up an information portal anyone can set up an information portal I mean data in that sense is really

I mean data in that sense is really I mean data in that sense is really cheap but building a product like you

cheap but building a product like you cheap but building a product like you said like trying to be um sending

said like trying to be um sending said like trying to be um sending qualified leads to Insurance offers it's

qualified leads to Insurance offers it's qualified leads to Insurance offers it's like well what would the best way of like well what would the best way of like well what would the best way of doing that and to me the answer is

doing that and to me the answer is doing that and to me the answer is products like Credit Karma that give you

products like Credit Karma that give you products like Credit Karma that give you your credit score and then they

your credit score and then they your credit score and then they basically the perfect flow for saying

basically the perfect flow for saying basically the perfect flow for saying well since you've already made it here

well since you've already made it here well since you've already made it here and I've done it without SEO I now have

and I've done it without SEO I now have and I've done it without SEO I now have the ability to sell you because I mean

the ability to sell you because I mean the ability to sell you because I mean that's what credit Karm does I mean they

that's what credit Karm does I mean they that's what credit Karm does I mean they make pretty good money from just being a

make pretty good money from just being a make pretty good money from just being a lead magnet by offering an amazing

lead magnet by offering an amazing lead magnet by offering an amazing product yeah I mean in theory it sounds

product yeah I mean in theory it sounds product yeah I mean in theory it sounds a great idea right but the challenge is

a great idea right but the challenge is a great idea right but the challenge is getting found that's the difficult thing

getting found that's the difficult thing getting found that's the difficult thing and there's a lot of big big sites out

and there's a lot of big big sites out and there's a lot of big big sites out there that have huge budget to D that

there that have huge budget to D that there that have huge budget to D that aggregate lots of content Within

aggregate lots of content Within aggregate lots of content Within so I think kind of like for Affiliates

so I think kind of like for Affiliates so I think kind of like for Affiliates like the best thing that they can do and

like the best thing that they can do and like the best thing that they can do and it it it sounds sort of um an anatom to what

sounds sort of um an anatom to what sounds sort of um an anatom to what we're talking about really which is all we're talking about really which is all we're talking about really which is all about technology but I still think a big

about technology but I still think a big about technology but I still think a big thing that's that's missed is actually

thing that's that's missed is actually thing that's that's missed is actually creating relationships with people where

creating relationships with people where creating relationships with people where you can actually pick up the phone to you can actually pick up the phone to you can actually pick up the phone to someone that's not particularly scalable

someone that's not particularly scalable someone that's not particularly scalable and say hey if you're an operator or an

and say hey if you're an operator or an and say hey if you're an operator or an owner of a product I am an affiliate

owner of a product I am an affiliate owner of a product I am an affiliate Network what kind of users are you

Network what kind of users are you Network what kind of users are you looking and then there's there's a of

looking and then there's there's a of looking and then there's there's a of ways you can get get those audiences you

ways you can get get those audiences you ways you can get get those audiences you know whether it's through you know know whether it's through you know know whether it's through you know people with their own Tik Tok channels people with their own Tik Tok channels people with their own Tik Tok channels or influencers or whatever and then it's

or influencers or whatever and then it's or influencers or whatever and then it's kind of saying great I've got one

kind of saying great I've got one kind of saying great I've got one Advertiser that fit that bill these are

Advertiser that fit that bill these are Advertiser that fit that bill these are the icps that they're looking for now I

the icps that they're looking for now I the icps that they're looking for now I need to find another

need to find another need to find another adverti um and that's really un I mean

adverti um and that's really un I mean adverti um and that's really un I mean people talk about that and it sounds people talk about that and it sounds people talk about that and it sounds fluffy and maybe outside of what what

fluffy and maybe outside of what what fluffy and maybe outside of what what you know a lot of bi is about but that

you know a lot of bi is about but that you know a lot of bi is about but that personal relationship where you're personal relationship where you're personal relationship where you're actually saying like what what really

actually saying like what what really actually saying like what what really are you looking to

are you looking to are you looking to to acquire from us you know what what is

to acquire from us you know what what is to acquire from us you know what what is that kind of user and you can put

that kind of user and you can put that kind of user and you can put together like a package of actually

together like a package of actually together like a package of actually going out and trying to trying to find

going out and trying to trying to find going out and trying to trying to find them you know I think a lot of companies

them you know I think a lot of companies them you know I think a lot of companies they get lost on the concept of scale

they get lost on the concept of scale they get lost on the concept of scale where they forget like you know people where they forget like you know people where they forget like you know people want to buy from people we know this to

want to buy from people we know this to want to buy from people we know this to be true in the B2B space but I think

be true in the B2B space but I think be true in the B2B space but I think we're already seeing uh some proof of

we're already seeing uh some proof of we're already seeing uh some proof of that in the b2c space where it's like

that in the b2c space where it's like that in the b2c space where it's like why are video and streamers and

why are video and streamers and why are video and streamers and podcasters capturing more market share

podcasters capturing more market share podcasters capturing more market share or simply put why are they able to

or simply put why are they able to or simply put why are they able to create demand I mean affiliat have been

create demand I mean affiliat have been create demand I mean affiliat have been just sort of sitting back and capturing

just sort of sitting back and capturing just sort of sitting back and capturing it it's like you know bet 365 as an

it it's like you know bet 365 as an it it's like you know bet 365 as an example they just become a massive

example they just become a massive example they just become a massive company so naturally a lot of people are

company so naturally a lot of people are company so naturally a lot of people are searching for it but you know to create

searching for it but you know to create searching for it but you know to create demand is something else and I think demand is something else and I think demand is something else and I think that's where you're right it's to have

that's where you're right it's to have that's where you're right it's to have those relationships I don't think you're

those relationships I don't think you're those relationships I don't think you're going to AI or automate your way through

going to AI or automate your way through going to AI or automate your way through this and if anything I think you know

this and if anything I think you know this and if anything I think you know companies like Google with Gmail are

companies like Google with Gmail are companies like Google with Gmail are saying hey we don't really want this

saying hey we don't really want this saying hey we don't really want this spray and prey like all all the social

spray and prey like all all the social spray and prey like all all the social channels where you can actually get you

channels where you can actually get you channels where you can actually get you know connections happening um you I

know connections happening um you I know connections happening um you I think these days are kind of done most

think these days are kind of done most think these days are kind of done most yeah and and to Echo that actually and

yeah and and to Echo that actually and yeah and and to Echo that actually and kind of bring it back into to Google um

kind of bring it back into to Google um kind of bring it back into to Google um and that side like I think that one way

and that side like I think that one way and that side like I think that one way of bringing personality to scale I

of bringing personality to scale I of bringing personality to scale I remember speaking to a guy that I met

remember speaking to a guy that I met remember speaking to a guy that I met for our podcast who had a number of

for our podcast who had a number of for our podcast who had a number of different um website uh that he drove

different um website uh that he drove different um website uh that he drove traffic to so he was a very scaled

traffic to so he was a very scaled traffic to so he was a very scaled publisher and he said he's going to put

publisher and he said he's going to put publisher and he said he's going to put a lot more emphasis this was a year and

a lot more emphasis this was a year and a lot more emphasis this was a year and a half ago on video because like when

a half ago on video because like when a half ago on video because like when you present something of like the

you present something of like the you present something of like the benefits of using bet 365 for example as

benefits of using bet 365 for example as benefits of using bet 365 for example as a video that's hard to replicate you

a video that's hard to replicate you a video that's hard to replicate you know you can quickly get a track GPT and

know you can quickly get a track GPT and know you can quickly get a track GPT and kind of create a site that Google is

kind of create a site that Google is kind of create a site that Google is going to start searching for an in-depth

going to start searching for an in-depth going to start searching for an in-depth thing and be saying well actually you

thing and be saying well actually you thing and be saying well actually you know this seems to be machine generate

know this seems to be machine generate know this seems to be machine generate but if you John R are talking about the

but if you John R are talking about the but if you John R are talking about the benefits of 365 and R and all the rest

benefits of 365 and R and all the rest benefits of 365 and R and all the rest of it and then you start to create that

of it and then you start to create that of it and then you start to create that as an asset that's available Google will

as an asset that's available Google will as an asset that's available Google will start to favor that you know for for for

start to favor that you know for for for start to favor that you know for for for SEO stuff so it's harder to do I think

SEO stuff so it's harder to do I think SEO stuff so it's harder to do I think but um that's one of the ways that we

but um that's one of the ways that we but um that's one of the ways that we keep doing it and you know we everyone's

keep doing it and you know we everyone's keep doing it and you know we everyone's been talking about this for a very long been talking about this for a very long been talking about this for a very long time but more you know as an influencer

time but more you know as an influencer time but more you know as an influencer or as an affiliate you really want to be

or as an affiliate you really want to be or as an affiliate you really want to be like an inch wide and a mile deep in

like an inch wide and a mile deep in like an inch wide and a mile deep in terms of like this is all I do but I am

terms of like this is all I do but I am terms of like this is all I do but I am an expert driving traffic for becking

an expert driving traffic for becking an expert driving traffic for becking and gaming d or whatever B to be

and gaming d or whatever B to be and gaming d or whatever B to be whatever it is I I wish I had that

whatever it is I I wish I had that whatever it is I I wish I had that answer to give to all the people that do

answer to give to all the people that do answer to give to all the people that do Outreach I know you get pitched all day

Outreach I know you get pitched all day Outreach I know you get pitched all day long it's like hey I do all these things

long it's like hey I do all these things long it's like hey I do all these things and I mean I don't trust them yeah

and I mean I don't trust them yeah and I mean I don't trust them yeah exactly right yeah so let's talk about

exactly right yeah so let's talk about exactly right yeah so let's talk about personalization and I I know everyone

personalization and I I know everyone personalization and I I know everyone wants to do everything at scale I mean

wants to do everything at scale I mean wants to do everything at scale I mean that's just how we are in affiliate

that's just how we are in affiliate that's just how we are in affiliate marketing but uh what are you seeing in

marketing but uh what are you seeing in marketing but uh what are you seeing in the background of how people are able to

the background of how people are able to the background of how people are able to use smart ways of personalization I'm

use smart ways of personalization I'm use smart ways of personalization I'm assuming that the short answers you need

assuming that the short answers you need assuming that the short answers you need to get more data to be able to

to get more data to be able to to get more data to be able to personalize anything whether you want to

personalize anything whether you want to personalize anything whether you want to do it on scale like a large scale or

do it on scale like a large scale or do it on scale like a large scale or small scale yeah yeah so taking it from

small scale yeah yeah so taking it from small scale yeah yeah so taking it from the lens of let's say attribution and

the lens of let's say attribution and the lens of let's say attribution and tracking and one method that definitely

tracking and one method that definitely tracking and one method that definitely a lot of people use is something called

a lot of people use is something called a lot of people use is something called smart links we don't we more familiar

smart links we don't we more familiar smart links we don't we more familiar with this but this is the concept of

with this but this is the concept of with this but this is the concept of creating one link and then giving that

creating one link and then giving that creating one link and then giving that to your Affiliates and then nested

to your Affiliates and then nested to your Affiliates and then nested underneath that you might have a series

underneath that you might have a series underneath that you might have a series of different offers so that could be

of different offers so that could be of different offers so that could be different ways to AB test landing pages

different ways to AB test landing pages different ways to AB test landing pages for example so okay I'm going to give

for example so okay I'm going to give for example so okay I'm going to give you John a link to promote this and when

you John a link to promote this and when you John a link to promote this and when a user clicks on that link Now using the

a user clicks on that link Now using the a user clicks on that link Now using the targeting technology that we and other

targeting technology that we and other targeting technology that we and other companies use you can say great if this

companies use you can say great if this companies use you can say great if this user fits this criteria send this user

user fits this criteria send this user user fits this criteria send this user to this Landing P that might be language

to this Landing P that might be language to this Landing P that might be language it might be device type it might be

it might be device type it might be it might be device type it might be whatever it is um but you can um AB test

whatever it is um but you can um AB test whatever it is um but you can um AB test using smart links but you can also like

using smart links but you can also like using smart links but you can also like a lot of people have been quite clever a lot of people have been quite clever a lot of people have been quite clever in things like sending out emails so you

in things like sending out emails so you in things like sending out emails so you can send out a generic email let's say

can send out a generic email let's say can send out a generic email let's say it's for a gaming offer or I gaming or

it's for a gaming offer or I gaming or it's for a gaming offer or I gaming or something similar you send out an email

something similar you send out an email something similar you send out an email and embedded in that creative is a smart

and embedded in that creative is a smart and embedded in that creative is a smart link and what you can do within that is

link and what you can do within that is link and what you can do within that is you can say okay let's say I have a cap

you can say okay let's say I have a cap you can say okay let's say I have a cap for a certain operator certain number of

for a certain operator certain number of for a certain operator certain number of conversion that they want and then after

conversion that they want and then after conversion that they want and then after that cap is required I have another

that cap is required I have another that cap is required I have another operator that fulfills that so maybe

operator that fulfills that so maybe operator that fulfills that so maybe just in the UK for example we have a

just in the UK for example we have a just in the UK for example we have a very big race called be CH gold you know

very big race called be CH gold you know very big race called be CH gold you know within I and beon and so you might have

within I and beon and so you might have within I and beon and so you might have you know three or four people that have

you know three or four people that have you know three or four people that have given you an option for the CH gold car

given you an option for the CH gold car given you an option for the CH gold car you create a generic email you include a

you create a generic email you include a you create a generic email you include a smart link within it you send that out

smart link within it you send that out smart link within it you send that out as each of those advertisers hit their

as each of those advertisers hit their as each of those advertisers hit their cat the link just redirects users to

cat the link just redirects users to cat the link just redirects users to other buyers seamlessly so you know if I

other buyers seamlessly so you know if I other buyers seamlessly so you know if I open that email on a Tuesday come back

open that email on a Tuesday come back open that email on a Tuesday come back on a Thursday and think yeah we'll buy

on a Thursday and think yeah we'll buy on a Thursday and think yeah we'll buy that she I'm checking it my family now

that she I'm checking it my family now that she I'm checking it my family now I'm going to another provider seems know

I'm going to another provider seems know I'm going to another provider seems know so you can personalize it in lots of

so you can personalize it in lots of so you can personalize it in lots of ways like that never thought about that

ways like that never thought about that ways like that never thought about that before where you could actually say wait

before where you could actually say wait before where you could actually say wait a minute you clicked on this link Monday

a minute you clicked on this link Monday a minute you clicked on this link Monday and you you came back Wednesday um I I

and you you came back Wednesday um I I and you you came back Wednesday um I I think giving that user something

think giving that user something think giving that user something different or saying hey welcome back or

different or saying hey welcome back or different or saying hey welcome back or you know it's hey it sounds kind of

you know it's hey it sounds kind of you know it's hey it sounds kind of trivial but I mean these are things that

trivial but I mean these are things that trivial but I mean these are things that in my opinion without having any data in

in my opinion without having any data in in my opinion without having any data in front of me there's no way this doesn't

front of me there's no way this doesn't front of me there's no way this doesn't convert more yeah exactly so well I mean

convert more yeah exactly so well I mean convert more yeah exactly so well I mean as as as as we all know right and I'm

as as as as we all know right and I'm as as as as we all know right and I'm assuming that most people are listening assuming that most people are listening assuming that most people are listening kind of date to Geeks to to some way to

kind of date to Geeks to to some way to kind of date to Geeks to to some way to some extent like the British sort of

some extent like the British sort of some extent like the British sort of made a decision in their Olympic sort of

made a decision in their Olympic sort of made a decision in their Olympic sort of thing to sort of say okay we think we

thing to sort of say okay we think we thing to sort of say okay we think we can win a lot of medals within cycling

can win a lot of medals within cycling can win a lot of medals within cycling so we're going to put a lot of our eggs so we're going to put a lot of our eggs so we're going to put a lot of our eggs in those basket and all we're going to

in those basket and all we're going to in those basket and all we're going to do is to focus on like games you know so

do is to focus on like games you know so do is to focus on like games you know so they had the same the cycling team had

they had the same the cycling team had they had the same the cycling team had the same pillow every night even though

the same pillow every night even though the same pillow every night even though they were going to uh a hotel because

they were going to uh a hotel because they were going to uh a hotel because they realized that even this half a

they realized that even this half a they realized that even this half a percent increase in performance

percent increase in performance percent increase in performance compounded over time really adds there

compounded over time really adds there compounded over time really adds there and I think that's the big thing that

and I think that's the big thing that and I think that's the big thing that now a lot of marketeers want there's so

now a lot of marketeers want there's so now a lot of marketeers want there's so much data out there how can you automate

much data out there how can you automate much data out there how can you automate this process of optimizing things you

this process of optimizing things you this process of optimizing things you know um that big thing but it seems like

know um that big thing but it seems like know um that big thing but it seems like most Affiliates and we could even

most Affiliates and we could even most Affiliates and we could even probably find some large Affiliates that

probably find some large Affiliates that probably find some large Affiliates that would be guilty of this are not always

would be guilty of this are not always would be guilty of this are not always using smart links like I don't even know

using smart links like I don't even know using smart links like I don't even know what percentage of the space is but I

what percentage of the space is but I what percentage of the space is but I estimate that there's what three million

estimate that there's what three million estimate that there's what three million Affiliates globally if not more I mean

Affiliates globally if not more I mean Affiliates globally if not more I mean your your mom and your friend could be

your your mom and your friend could be your your mom and your friend could be an affiliate with one click of just

an affiliate with one click of just an affiliate with one click of just joining a referral program and uh yeah

joining a referral program and uh yeah joining a referral program and uh yeah it's there there's a whole sea of space

it's there there's a whole sea of space it's there there's a whole sea of space debris of tracking links and broken

debris of tracking links and broken debris of tracking links and broken links and yeah I mean one I mean

links and yeah I mean one I mean links and yeah I mean one I mean obviously this is we I got brows on this

obviously this is we I got brows on this obviously this is we I got brows on this but like one one Trend definitely that

but like one one Trend definitely that but like one one Trend definitely that we see is for example um we deal with a

we see is for example um we deal with a we see is for example um we deal with a lot of different types of company but

lot of different types of company but lot of different types of company but you know let's say you're an e-commerce

you know let's say you're an e-commerce you know let's say you're an e-commerce right so you're using a tracking right so you're using a tracking right so you're using a tracking platform you've got a good idea of like

platform you've got a good idea of like platform you've got a good idea of like these are my partners I'm working with

these are my partners I'm working with these are my partners I'm working with these Partners I want to F in Google

these Partners I want to F in Google these Partners I want to F in Google Facebook and so on what's the next stage

Facebook and so on what's the next stage Facebook and so on what's the next stage of growth and often like our team will

of growth and often like our team will of growth and often like our team will say well have you thought about turning

say well have you thought about turning say well have you thought about turning your customers into ambassadors or

your customers into ambassadors or your customers into ambassadors or referral sources and so you can do

referral sources and so you can do referral sources and so you can do things like turn a tracking link into a

things like turn a tracking link into a things like turn a tracking link into a QR code because if you're sending out

QR code because if you're sending out QR code because if you're sending out any physical product you own that real

any physical product you own that real any physical product you own that real estate you might as well turn that into

estate you might as well turn that into estate you might as well turn that into a QR code so whether that's on the uh

a QR code so whether that's on the uh a QR code so whether that's on the uh item itself in a letter that's included

item itself in a letter that's included item itself in a letter that's included within the item and you know that could

within the item and you know that could within the item and you know that could be anything you could be refer a friend

be anything you could be refer a friend be anything you could be refer a friend and get them sent off or whatever this

and get them sent off or whatever this and get them sent off or whatever this could be for software as well you know I

could be for software as well you know I could be for software as well you know I think a lot of people are forgetting

think a lot of people are forgetting think a lot of people are forgetting that the biggest referral sources

that the biggest referral sources that the biggest referral sources usually come from their own customer

usually come from their own customer usually come from their own customer base turning people from Happy customers

base turning people from Happy customers base turning people from Happy customers into tracked referrals so there lots of

into tracked referrals so there lots of into tracked referrals so there lots of different use cases for affiliate and as

different use cases for affiliate and as different use cases for affiliate and as you said anyone can become an affiliate

you said anyone can become an affiliate you said anyone can become an affiliate now so I I've been I'm always looking at

now so I I've been I'm always looking at now so I I've been I'm always looking at Stats and I think I've read something

Stats and I think I've read something Stats and I think I've read something that the affiliate marketing space today

that the affiliate marketing space today that the affiliate marketing space today is worth around close to 20 billion and

is worth around close to 20 billion and is worth around close to 20 billion and in 2030 it should be around 36 billion

in 2030 it should be around 36 billion in 2030 it should be around 36 billion um let's assume that people get Smarter

um let's assume that people get Smarter um let's assume that people get Smarter with optimizing everything like all the

with optimizing everything like all the with optimizing everything like all the things that we've been talking about things that we've been talking about things that we've been talking about before how much bigger do you think

before how much bigger do you think before how much bigger do you think affiliate marketing could be um using 36

affiliate marketing could be um using 36 affiliate marketing could be um using 36 billion and that's been kind of like a

billion and that's been kind of like a billion and that's been kind of like a 10 to 15% uh compounded growth per year

10 to 15% uh compounded growth per year 10 to 15% uh compounded growth per year do you think it could be bigger yeah for

do you think it could be bigger yeah for do you think it could be bigger yeah for sure and like I think it's very

sure and like I think it's very sure and like I think it's very difficult for people to get through

difficult for people to get through difficult for people to get through numbers on the size of total affiliate

numbers on the size of total affiliate numbers on the size of total affiliate EV I actually think it'd be a lot bigger

EV I actually think it'd be a lot bigger EV I actually think it'd be a lot bigger I can share with you like everflow is a

I can share with you like everflow is a I can share with you like everflow is a company that you know no one walking

company that you know no one walking company that you know no one walking around the street has heard of you know

around the street has heard of you know around the street has heard of you know a few people in our Industries just as a

a few people in our Industries just as a a few people in our Industries just as a small company with 100 staff we process

small company with 100 staff we process small company with 100 staff we process 4 billion um dollars of affiliate

4 billion um dollars of affiliate 4 billion um dollars of affiliate Revenue payout per year um so like I

Revenue payout per year um so like I Revenue payout per year um so like I think that number is like Way north of

think that number is like Way north of think that number is like Way north of that s 30 36 billion I think I think

that s 30 36 billion I think I think that s 30 36 billion I think I think it's it's actually maybe 10 times bigger

it's it's actually maybe 10 times bigger it's it's actually maybe 10 times bigger 20 times and I I think it will get

20 times and I I think it will get 20 times and I I think it will get bigger bigger bigger because like there's a lot of Focus to

because like there's a lot of Focus to because like there's a lot of Focus to previously to learn how to do affiliate

previously to learn how to do affiliate previously to learn how to do affiliate marketing like we're getting into the

marketing like we're getting into the marketing like we're getting into the weeds of it here but for for the average

weeds of it here but for for the average weeds of it here but for for the average person to to to learn how to do

person to to to learn how to do person to to to learn how to do affiliate marketing it's actually got

affiliate marketing it's actually got affiliate marketing it's actually got simpler in terms of like okay great you

simpler in terms of like okay great you simpler in terms of like okay great you want to work with me I want to work with

want to work with me I want to work with want to work with me I want to work with you I'll just generate you a tracking

you I'll just generate you a tracking you I'll just generate you a tracking link you can promote this however you

link you can promote this however you link you can promote this however you want on your Tik Tok re on your LinkedIn

want on your Tik Tok re on your LinkedIn want on your Tik Tok re on your LinkedIn posts whatever it is and the audience

posts whatever it is and the audience posts whatever it is and the audience that you can reach very quickly is you

that you can reach very quickly is you that you can reach very quickly is you know is is much more scale scalable so

know is is much more scale scalable so know is is much more scale scalable so yeah I I think obviously I'm biased but

yeah I I think obviously I'm biased but yeah I I think obviously I'm biased but I do think it will grow and I do think

I do think it will grow and I do think I do think it will grow and I do think that people now are um seeing themselves

that people now are um seeing themselves that people now are um seeing themselves as influencers you know more and more

as influencers you know more and more as influencers you know more and more professional to seeing themselves as

professional to seeing themselves as professional to seeing themselves as influencers and to track all of this and

influencers and to track all of this and influencers and to track all of this and this you know you touched upon crms

this you know you touched upon crms this you know you touched upon crms maybe you track some of this like you

maybe you track some of this like you maybe you track some of this like you can do it not just through um affiliate

can do it not just through um affiliate can do it not just through um affiliate links and so on but you can also link to

links and so on but you can also link to links and so on but you can also link to a CRM for when introductions are made or

a CRM for when introductions are made or a CRM for when introductions are made or email is made and something that okay

email is made and something that okay email is made and something that okay then that goes right into the next

then that goes right into the next then that goes right into the next question of like do you think we don't

question of like do you think we don't question of like do you think we don't really have any proper crms for both

really have any proper crms for both really have any proper crms for both Affiliates SL Publishers as well as

Affiliates SL Publishers as well as Affiliates SL Publishers as well as operators because I mean when we think

operators because I mean when we think operators because I mean when we think of CRM we think of HubSpot and pipe

of CRM we think of HubSpot and pipe of CRM we think of HubSpot and pipe drive and Salesforce and those things

drive and Salesforce and those things drive and Salesforce and those things are great on their own but I feel like

are great on their own but I feel like are great on their own but I feel like we need our own customized version that

we need our own customized version that we need our own customized version that lives and breathes our

lives and breathes our lives and breathes our space well I hate to sound like an

space well I hate to sound like an space well I hate to sound like an advert here and just shut me off but

advert here and just shut me off but advert here and just shut me off but like essentially yeah everflow is is

like essentially yeah everflow is is like essentially yeah everflow is is like a CRM for affiliate and there are

like a CRM for affiliate and there are like a CRM for affiliate and there are other companies out there so really good

other companies out there so really good other companies out there so really good companies as well so like when you start

companies as well so like when you start companies as well so like when you start searching if you're looking for this the

searching if you're looking for this the searching if you're looking for this the problems that these companies as a whole

problems that these companies as a whole problems that these companies as a whole sort of solve are the administrative

sort of solve are the administrative sort of solve are the administrative elements of running an affiliate so that

elements of running an affiliate so that elements of running an affiliate so that can be okay I want to organize all my

can be okay I want to organize all my can be okay I want to organize all my Partners I want to organize all my

Partners I want to organize all my Partners I want to organize all my creative assets I want to make sure

creative assets I want to make sure creative assets I want to make sure these are all tra I want to pay partners

these are all tra I want to pay partners these are all tra I want to pay partners with invoicing I want to give them a

with invoicing I want to give them a with invoicing I want to give them a login they're definitely companies that

login they're definitely companies that login they're definitely companies that can do this so like if you are finding

can do this so like if you are finding can do this so like if you are finding that managing your affiliate program is

that managing your affiliate program is that managing your affiliate program is causing you more headaches to scale than

causing you more headaches to scale than causing you more headaches to scale than it were which is often the case

it were which is often the case it were which is often the case sometimes the affiliate program will be sometimes the affiliate program will be sometimes the affiliate program will be doing very well and the person that's

doing very well and the person that's doing very well and the person that's running that would be I don't want to

running that would be I don't want to running that would be I don't want to scale this anymore because I'm managing

scale this anymore because I'm managing scale this anymore because I'm managing it on spreadsheets you know all the rest

it on spreadsheets you know all the rest it on spreadsheets you know all the rest of it and it's just not working for me

of it and it's just not working for me of it and it's just not working for me so there are a bunch of companies out

so there are a bunch of companies out so there are a bunch of companies out there that can really help with that to

there that can really help with that to there that can really help with that to really be a CRM to manage all of that

really be a CRM to manage all of that really be a CRM to manage all of that and of course it can plug into the more

and of course it can plug into the more and of course it can plug into the more traditional crms because let's say for

traditional crms because let's say for traditional crms because let's say for example you are running an affiliate

example you are running an affiliate example you are running an affiliate program on a B2B for example let's say

program on a B2B for example let's say program on a B2B for example let's say you are a software as a service that's

you are a software as a service that's you are a software as a service that's maybe doing or we mentioned accounting

maybe doing or we mentioned accounting maybe doing or we mentioned accounting soft accounting software earlier like

soft accounting software earlier like soft accounting software earlier like you want not only to be buying or giving

you want not only to be buying or giving you want not only to be buying or giving out a tracking link that just goes to

out a tracking link that just goes to out a tracking link that just goes to someone to book a demo you want to

someone to book a demo you want to someone to book a demo you want to understand what that user's doing and

understand what that user's doing and understand what that user's doing and the value of those users as they go

the value of those users as they go the value of those users as they go through that user flow now and that is

through that user flow now and that is through that user flow now and that is super super important so like we link to

super super important so like we link to super super important so like we link to HubSpot Salesforce for example and so

HubSpot Salesforce for example and so HubSpot Salesforce for example and so you know for beta beans it's essential

you know for beta beans it's essential you know for beta beans it's essential for them to see okay you know postback

for them to see okay you know postback for them to see okay you know postback is firing what and an electronic signal

is firing what and an electronic signal is firing what and an electronic signal is sending back that the consumer's done

is sending back that the consumer's done is sending back that the consumer's done something so they booked a demo maybe

something so they booked a demo maybe something so they booked a demo maybe they've had the follow-up call with the they've had the follow-up call with the they've had the follow-up call with the sales bre maybe uh information is being

sales bre maybe uh information is being sales bre maybe uh information is being sent out trial upgrade Enterprise

sent out trial upgrade Enterprise sent out trial upgrade Enterprise upgrade you want to track all of that so

upgrade you want to track all of that so upgrade you want to track all of that so that you can reward that referral source

that you can reward that referral source that you can reward that referral source and also learn more about okay these

and also learn more about okay these and also learn more about okay these type of users go much deeper into the

type of users go much deeper into the type of users go much deeper into the user flow I don't just sign up to become

user flow I don't just sign up to become user flow I don't just sign up to become do a demo where it's not relevant you

do a demo where it's not relevant you do a demo where it's not relevant you want to really link that ICP right way

want to really link that ICP right way want to really link that ICP right way through to someone that is upgrading and

through to someone that is upgrading and through to someone that is upgrading and becoming a paid

becoming a paid becoming a paid for next I want to jump into Data

for next I want to jump into Data for next I want to jump into Data literacy uh because I know you have uh

literacy uh because I know you have uh literacy uh because I know you have uh the everflow certification program so I

the everflow certification program so I the everflow certification program so I want to ask what's in the course and

want to ask what's in the course and want to ask what's in the course and what is your take on where we are as an

what is your take on where we are as an what is your take on where we are as an industry of trying to make people not

industry of trying to make people not industry of trying to make people not just understand the basic but level up I

just understand the basic but level up I just understand the basic but level up I I believe that affiliate managers are

I believe that affiliate managers are I believe that affiliate managers are one of the the areas where if they

one of the the areas where if they one of the the areas where if they understood data better then they could

understood data better then they could understood data better then they could be do more of just being

be do more of just being be do more of just being salespeople yeah yeah definitely well

salespeople yeah yeah definitely well salespeople yeah yeah definitely well probably like your goodself right I am a

probably like your goodself right I am a probably like your goodself right I am a champion of affiliate managers I they

champion of affiliate managers I they champion of affiliate managers I they they're unsung heroes within our

they're unsung heroes within our they're unsung heroes within our industry you know because they're often

industry you know because they're often industry you know because they're often juggling a lot and sometimes within a

juggling a lot and sometimes within a juggling a lot and sometimes within a big organization the affiliate manager

big organization the affiliate manager big organization the affiliate manager can occupy quote unquote relatively

can occupy quote unquote relatively can occupy quote unquote relatively lowly position because often Affiliates

lowly position because often Affiliates lowly position because often Affiliates as a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be

as a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be as a whole might make up 10 or 20% of be doing very well within the program but

doing very well within the program but doing very well within the program but usually it's something something like usually it's something something like usually it's something something like 10% so often they'll report into VP of

10% so often they'll report into VP of 10% so often they'll report into VP of growth or Performance Marketing C and

growth or Performance Marketing C and growth or Performance Marketing C and all the rest of it and I think the all the rest of it and I think the all the rest of it and I think the challenged often those people are quite

challenged often those people are quite challenged often those people are quite data lit up thing sometimes it's just

data lit up thing sometimes it's just data lit up thing sometimes it's just about getting access to that information

about getting access to that information about getting access to that information just and and automating it just so you

just and and automating it just so you just and and automating it just so you can say because often affiliate managers

can say because often affiliate managers can say because often affiliate managers have to have this kind of dual aspect of

have to have this kind of dual aspect of have to have this kind of dual aspect of them would being okay I've got to be the

them would being okay I've got to be the them would being okay I've got to be the sort of person that can get on a phone

sort of person that can get on a phone sort of person that can get on a phone call and maybe deal with some issue that

call and maybe deal with some issue that call and maybe deal with some issue that the client having and resolve it in a

the client having and resolve it in a the client having and resolve it in a you know with using all the kind of soft

you know with using all the kind of soft you know with using all the kind of soft skills and emotional intelligence and

skills and emotional intelligence and skills and emotional intelligence and everything like that but then I need to

everything like that but then I need to everything like that but then I need to maybe write SQL queries on the back of

maybe write SQL queries on the back of maybe write SQL queries on the back of that to Crunch the num to run a report

that to Crunch the num to run a report that to Crunch the num to run a report to understand what went wrong and why

to understand what went wrong and why to understand what went wrong and why and I think I think yeah you've hit that

and I think I think yeah you've hit that and I think I think yeah you've hit that on the head what a lot of people looking on the head what a lot of people looking on the head what a lot of people looking for is for computers software to solve

for is for computers software to solve for is for computers software to solve and automate that problem so that they

and automate that problem so that they and automate that problem so that they can focus on things that machines can't

can focus on things that machines can't can focus on things that machines can't do very well which is have these

do very well which is have these do very well which is have these converstion take take that affiliate

converstion take take that affiliate converstion take take that affiliate Source out for lunch you know all the

Source out for lunch you know all the Source out for lunch you know all the good stuff that you want to do but you good stuff that you want to do but you good stuff that you want to do but you need the system to be automating this

need the system to be automating this need the system to be automating this stuff so you don't have to run reports

stuff so you don't have to run reports stuff so you don't have to run reports uh or uh have the system blocking sub

uh or uh have the system blocking sub uh or uh have the system blocking sub IDs like at click level if there's

IDs like at click level if there's IDs like at click level if there's problems happening whether the signature

problems happening whether the signature problems happening whether the signature of the traffic looks wrong you need

of the traffic looks wrong you need of the traffic looks wrong you need these stipulations and signatures in

these stipulations and signatures in these stipulations and signatures in place at the tracking platform level so

place at the tracking platform level so place at the tracking platform level so that you're not basically spending your

that you're not basically spending your that you're not basically spending your day fighting fires with you know the The

day fighting fires with you know the The day fighting fires with you know the The Operators or the owners of the office

Operators or the owners of the office Operators or the owners of the office and so on I think i' I've just realized

and so on I think i' I've just realized and so on I think i' I've just realized that maybe affiliate managers have the

that maybe affiliate managers have the that maybe affiliate managers have the one of the biggest burdens in affiliate

one of the biggest burdens in affiliate one of the biggest burdens in affiliate marketing because they have to be the marketing because they have to be the marketing because they have to be the salese they have to be the relationship

salese they have to be the relationship salese they have to be the relationship manager they have to quite often build

manager they have to quite often build manager they have to quite often build the program they have to make the

the program they have to make the the program they have to make the decisions of how they're going to grow decisions of how they're going to grow decisions of how they're going to grow the program where there's not really a

the program where there's not really a the program where there's not really a lot of documentation behind and then

lot of documentation behind and then lot of documentation behind and then we're basically asking them on the flip

we're basically asking them on the flip we're basically asking them on the flip side be really good at data and reports

side be really good at data and reports side be really good at data and reports and the finances and all that stuff I

and the finances and all that stuff I and the finances and all that stuff I mean this is actually I I think no

mean this is actually I I think no mean this is actually I I think no wonder why you know this is actually my

wonder why you know this is actually my wonder why you know this is actually my personal opinion affiliate managers are

personal opinion affiliate managers are personal opinion affiliate managers are one bottleneck in the industry where

one bottleneck in the industry where one bottleneck in the industry where we're asking them to do everything and

we're asking them to do everything and we're asking them to do everything and they're the ones that actually go to the they're the ones that actually go to the they're the ones that actually go to the owner of the the company and say we're

owner of the the company and say we're owner of the the company and say we're going to pick this software for this going to pick this software for this going to pick this software for this reason it's like you're asking them to

reason it's like you're asking them to reason it's like you're asking them to do all of it yeah exactly exactly and

do all of it yeah exactly exactly and do all of it yeah exactly exactly and often why the case is that those

often why the case is that those often why the case is that those affiliate managers when they they they

affiliate managers when they they they affiliate managers when they they they either move away from affiliate into

either move away from affiliate into either move away from affiliate into something kind of easier like brand or

something kind of easier like brand or something kind of easier like brand or something similar or just focusing on

something similar or just focusing on something similar or just focusing on Google or they set up their own agency

Google or they set up their own agency Google or they set up their own agency right you know and there's there does

right you know and there's there does right you know and there's there does seem to be kind of like within like an

seem to be kind of like within like an seem to be kind of like within like an affiliate agency um you know maybe up to

affiliate agency um you know maybe up to affiliate agency um you know maybe up to 10 people is is kind of the level it

10 people is is kind of the level it 10 people is is kind of the level it gets to and then it sometimes scales up

gets to and then it sometimes scales up gets to and then it sometimes scales up and down and things like that because and down and things like that because and down and things like that because you've got smart people that come in and

you've got smart people that come in and you've got smart people that come in and realize well I can do this myself you

realize well I can do this myself you realize well I can do this myself you know I'm I'm I'm G to go and

know I'm I'm I'm G to go and know I'm I'm I'm G to go and dur um what of your articles on your

dur um what of your articles on your dur um what of your articles on your website talks about agencies and I

website talks about agencies and I website talks about agencies and I forget what the context was but it was

forget what the context was but it was forget what the context was but it was something that agencies are going to

something that agencies are going to something that agencies are going to suffer where there's a lot of them and I

suffer where there's a lot of them and I suffer where there's a lot of them and I think maybe the margins are going to get think maybe the margins are going to get think maybe the margins are going to get tighter so I want to just get your take

tighter so I want to just get your take tighter so I want to just get your take on what do you see as agencies today or

on what do you see as agencies today or on what do you see as agencies today or moving forward what do they have to to

moving forward what do they have to to moving forward what do they have to to be good at to not just survive but you

be good at to not just survive but you be good at to not just survive but you know to to grow yeah and I think

know to to grow yeah and I think know to to grow yeah and I think agencies need to add value right we we

agencies need to add value right we we agencies need to add value right we we all can think of agencies as and for us

all can think of agencies as and for us all can think of agencies as and for us like agencies are a central part of our

like agencies are a central part of our like agencies are a central part of our strategy sort of ongoing because they

strategy sort of ongoing because they strategy sort of ongoing because they can help um

can help um can help um you know everflow we provide a software

you know everflow we provide a software you know everflow we provide a software as a service as a CRM and manage all of

as a service as a CRM and manage all of as a service as a CRM and manage all of this affili in the to what we present

this affili in the to what we present this affili in the to what we present we've got some tools to help people we've got some tools to help people we've got some tools to help people scale like a Marketplace and so on but

scale like a Marketplace and so on but scale like a Marketplace and so on but agencies really will then take that

agencies really will then take that agencies really will then take that program forward so they can come up with

program forward so they can come up with program forward so they can come up with ideas of like well let's turn these QR

ideas of like well let's turn these QR ideas of like well let's turn these QR codes into adverts on bus stops or in

codes into adverts on bus stops or in codes into adverts on bus stops or in print or wherever it is um and I think

print or wherever it is um and I think print or wherever it is um and I think the challenges that a lot of agencies

the challenges that a lot of agencies the challenges that a lot of agencies has from a pricing perspective is you

has from a pricing perspective is you has from a pricing perspective is you you and I were talking about be being a

you and I were talking about be being a you and I were talking about be being a very big space postco you know that with

very big space postco you know that with very big space postco you know that with all the you know um let's say inflation

all the you know um let's say inflation all the you know um let's say inflation and moving away from a zero interest

and moving away from a zero interest and moving away from a zero interest rate world where suddenly these software

rate world where suddenly these software rate world where suddenly these software as a service have got to be earning

as a service have got to be earning as a service have got to be earning money God forbid you know rather than

money God forbid you know rather than money God forbid you know rather than just raising BC money building a Bru and

just raising BC money building a Bru and just raising BC money building a Bru and hoping you know the world comes to them

hoping you know the world comes to them hoping you know the world comes to them it's kind of like most growth managers

it's kind of like most growth managers it's kind of like most growth managers now are viewed through like a

now are viewed through like a now are viewed through like a performance lens of like okay we're

performance lens of like okay we're performance lens of like okay we're buying users we can't just be afford to

buying users we can't just be afford to buying users we can't just be afford to be buying users that don't go on and do

be buying users that don't go on and do be buying users that don't go on and do something so they need to be again

something so they need to be again something so they need to be again deeper into that user flow and that is

deeper into that user flow and that is deeper into that user flow and that is then pushed forward to the agencies

then pushed forward to the agencies then pushed forward to the agencies where it's like we don't want brand

where it's like we don't want brand where it's like we don't want brand campaign we need kind of users like and

campaign we need kind of users like and campaign we need kind of users like and you know we we are happy to pay you but

you know we we are happy to pay you but you know we we are happy to pay you but you know we haven't got that kind of you know we haven't got that kind of you know we haven't got that kind of money now because that VC money is dried

money now because that VC money is dried money now because that VC money is dried up and you know the dragons further up

up and you know the dragons further up up and you know the dragons further up up the chain are kind of breathing and

up the chain are kind of breathing and up the chain are kind of breathing and saying like when is this coming s make

saying like when is this coming s make saying like when is this coming s make Mone going back to QR codes because you

Mone going back to QR codes because you Mone going back to QR codes because you mentioned that a few times and I mentioned that a few times and I mentioned that a few times and I actually don't think I spent much time

actually don't think I spent much time actually don't think I spent much time talking about that in any with any of

talking about that in any with any of talking about that in any with any of the previous guests so what would you

the previous guests so what would you the previous guests so what would you say are like how do operators and

say are like how do operators and say are like how do operators and Affiliates need to look at QR code in

Affiliates need to look at QR code in Affiliates need to look at QR code in terms of we know they're growing we see

terms of we know they're growing we see terms of we know they're growing we see these QR code companies just they're

these QR code companies just they're these QR code companies just they're they're flying they're they're just they're flying they're they're just they're flying they're they're just printing money uh what are we not doing

printing money uh what are we not doing printing money uh what are we not doing to integrate QR code yeah I I I think

to integrate QR code yeah I I I think to integrate QR code yeah I I I think kind of um QR code the sort of like you

kind of um QR code the sort of like you kind of um QR code the sort of like you know the sort of uh The Unwanted

know the sort of uh The Unwanted know the sort of uh The Unwanted stepchild of kind of like you know they

stepchild of kind of like you know they stepchild of kind of like you know they get overlooked because it seems like

get overlooked because it seems like get overlooked because it seems like oldfashioned technology to turn a track

oldfashioned technology to turn a track oldfashioned technology to turn a track of into a QR code and that was in the

of into a QR code and that was in the of into a QR code and that was in the days where it was like a real F to you

days where it was like a real F to you days where it was like a real F to you know uh oh there's a QR code I need to

know uh oh there's a QR code I need to know uh oh there's a QR code I need to get my app to read it and all the rest

get my app to read it and all the rest get my app to read it and all the rest of it now people can do that and it

of it now people can do that and it of it now people can do that and it Bridges the gap between very cheap

Bridges the gap between very cheap Bridges the gap between very cheap offline media like newspapers like

offline media like newspapers like offline media like newspapers like leaflet like letters that you can

leaflet like letters that you can leaflet like letters that you can include when you send a product to a

include when you send a product to a include when you send a product to a consumer like the um QR code that could

consumer like the um QR code that could consumer like the um QR code that could sit on a bottle of nutrition you know

sit on a bottle of nutrition you know sit on a bottle of nutrition you know supplements or whatever it is that's

supplements or whatever it is that's supplements or whatever it is that's three real estate you can advertise in

three real estate you can advertise in three real estate you can advertise in bridges that gap between very expensive

bridges that gap between very expensive bridges that gap between very expensive and very and very and very competitive um online media you know and

competitive um online media you know and competitive um online media you know and so I think QR codes can be used in lots

so I think QR codes can be used in lots so I think QR codes can be used in lots of different ways whether it's through

of different ways whether it's through of different ways whether it's through referral sources for a B2B let's say um

referral sources for a B2B let's say um referral sources for a B2B let's say um one of my clients is like a credit

one of my clients is like a credit one of my clients is like a credit Checker uh in the UK so people are

Checker uh in the UK so people are Checker uh in the UK so people are buying a home um they need to get their

buying a home um they need to get their buying a home um they need to get their credit checked right and so their

credit checked right and so their credit checked right and so their affiliate program this company uh is

affiliate program this company uh is affiliate program this company uh is basically mortgage advisors and they

basically mortgage advisors and they basically mortgage advisors and they will use things like QR codes on their

will use things like QR codes on their will use things like QR codes on their business cards to say Hey you know

business cards to say Hey you know business cards to say Hey you know you're in my office we're talking about

you're in my office we're talking about you're in my office we're talking about you buying a house you there you go

you buying a house you there you go you buying a house you there you go there you go right and you that can all

there you go right and you that can all there you go right and you that can all be tracked back to that individual

be tracked back to that individual be tracked back to that individual mortgage advisor um as a partner within

mortgage advisor um as a partner within mortgage advisor um as a partner within the program and you can use it in kind

the program and you can use it in kind the program and you can use it in kind of strange ways like that that people

of strange ways like that that people of strange ways like that that people are not necessarily thinking of you know

are not necessarily thinking of you know are not necessarily thinking of you know it's all about bridging that that Gap

it's all about bridging that that Gap it's all about bridging that that Gap you know so I I I think they kind of

you know so I I I think they kind of you know so I I I think they kind of unlove QR codes at some

unlove QR codes at some unlove QR codes at some debate we won't get into the

debate we won't get into the debate we won't get into the conversation yet about broken links in

conversation yet about broken links in conversation yet about broken links in QR codes that's that's definitely going

QR codes that's that's definitely going QR codes that's that's definitely going to be a thing in the future if we to be a thing in the future if we to be a thing in the future if we already have broken tracking links as

already have broken tracking links as already have broken tracking links as being a major problem in affiliate being a major problem in affiliate being a major problem in affiliate marketing then uh this will become a

marketing then uh this will become a marketing then uh this will become a problem

problem problem later I

later I later I ask yeah it it's there so what do you

ask yeah it it's there so what do you ask yeah it it's there so what do you seeing in the igaming space uh because I

seeing in the igaming space uh because I seeing in the igaming space uh because I know everflow uh has some clients in

know everflow uh has some clients in know everflow uh has some clients in igaming and uh you're looking to B in

igaming and uh you're looking to B in igaming and uh you're looking to B in there uh what do you see coming from my

there uh what do you see coming from my there uh what do you see coming from my opinion of the outside affiliate opinion of the outside affiliate opinion of the outside affiliate marketing world going in this uh unique

marketing world going in this uh unique marketing world going in this uh unique space yeah definitely well you and I got

space yeah definitely well you and I got space yeah definitely well you and I got connected because um through you know

connected because um through you know connected because um through you know your other interest you help aggregate a

your other interest you help aggregate a your other interest you help aggregate a lot of that information right from The

lot of that information right from The lot of that information right from The Operators and things like that um and

Operators and things like that um and Operators and things like that um and one challenge that we saw when we looked

one challenge that we saw when we looked one challenge that we saw when we looked at this industry maybe three years ago

at this industry maybe three years ago at this industry maybe three years ago was that the player data often uh

was that the player data often uh was that the player data often uh arrives in unusual ways whether that's

arrives in unusual ways whether that's arrives in unusual ways whether that's flat FTP files or something like that

flat FTP files or something like that flat FTP files or something like that that been sent through and there seemed

that been sent through and there seemed that been sent through and there seemed to be for commercial reasons as well as

to be for commercial reasons as well as to be for commercial reasons as well as technical reasons a reluctance to place

technical reasons a reluctance to place technical reasons a reluctance to place postbag at the point at which a consumer

postbag at the point at which a consumer postbag at the point at which a consumer does something and so we kind of looked

does something and so we kind of looked does something and so we kind of looked at it and then we thought well there's

at it and then we thought well there's at it and then we thought well there's other tangential markets that we can

other tangential markets that we can other tangential markets that we can serve that that are better but what

serve that that are better but what serve that that are better but what seems to have changed in those last

seems to have changed in those last seems to have changed in those last three years is and you probably know

three years is and you probably know three years is and you probably know this better than me John is that there this better than me John is that there this better than me John is that there seems to be more of an Acceptance Now

seems to be more of an Acceptance Now seems to be more of an Acceptance Now from operators to be at least willing to

from operators to be at least willing to from operators to be at least willing to place postback where something happens

place postback where something happens place postback where something happens so that might be a registration or an

so that might be a registration or an so that might be a registration or an install or deposit or something similar

install or deposit or something similar install or deposit or something similar and what we're seeing and it's really

and what we're seeing and it's really and what we're seeing and it's really kind of early days in terms of you know

kind of early days in terms of you know kind of early days in terms of you know the number of run up and running

the number of run up and running the number of run up and running customers scaled customers thing have

customers scaled customers thing have customers scaled customers thing have but definitely noticeable is that media

but definitely noticeable is that media but definitely noticeable is that media buyers are using errow flow to link

buyers are using errow flow to link buyers are using errow flow to link things like Facebook directly to the

things like Facebook directly to the things like Facebook directly to the operators so they're media buying and

operators so they're media buying and operators so they're media buying and they're maybe running traffic to pad pal

they're maybe running traffic to pad pal they're maybe running traffic to pad pal or or or someone similar and they're

or or or someone similar and they're or or or someone similar and they're using everflow specifically for

using everflow specifically for using everflow specifically for that

that that excellent yeah it's um I just think with

excellent yeah it's um I just think with excellent yeah it's um I just think with the S2s space uh what I believe to be

the S2s space uh what I believe to be the S2s space uh what I believe to be true is that as Affiliates integrate the

true is that as Affiliates integrate the true is that as Affiliates integrate the stuff on their side and say okay we're stuff on their side and say okay we're stuff on their side and say okay we're going to go from regular tracking to S2s

going to go from regular tracking to S2s going to go from regular tracking to S2s with postbacks I think once they realize

with postbacks I think once they realize with postbacks I think once they realize how they're able to learn from their

how they're able to learn from their how they're able to learn from their mistakes and like you said very early on

mistakes and like you said very early on mistakes and like you said very early on about the incremental gains I think

about the incremental gains I think about the incremental gains I think operators they might be seeing it in a

operators they might be seeing it in a operators they might be seeing it in a different way but they see it in the different way but they see it in the different way but they see it in the wrong sense the wrong sense is you got

wrong sense the wrong sense is you got wrong sense the wrong sense is you got to feel it saying we will not send you a

to feel it saying we will not send you a to feel it saying we will not send you a single click of traffic unless you give

single click of traffic unless you give single click of traffic unless you give me a post back so affiliate operators

me a post back so affiliate operators me a post back so affiliate operators are being um kind of like drawn to the

are being um kind of like drawn to the are being um kind of like drawn to the water so to speak and I think this is

water so to speak and I think this is water so to speak and I think this is where we're going to change and of

where we're going to change and of where we're going to change and of course it goes with saying I think if course it goes with saying I think if course it goes with saying I think if operators can see any data that support

operators can see any data that support operators can see any data that support growth from having S2s tracking um

growth from having S2s tracking um growth from having S2s tracking um either they're going to do it or they're either they're going to do it or they're either they're going to do it or they're going to fade out or be acquired by a

going to fade out or be acquired by a going to fade out or be acquired by a company that's H that's done those

company that's H that's done those company that's H that's done those incremental incremental incremental gains yeah and and you know this is

gains yeah and and you know this is gains yeah and and you know this is always the tension that exists between

always the tension that exists between always the tension that exists between you know advertisers and Publishers

you know advertisers and Publishers you know advertisers and Publishers right is that transparency of like okay

right is that transparency of like okay right is that transparency of like okay I'm going to send you a thousand clicks

I'm going to send you a thousand clicks I'm going to send you a thousand clicks what's actually happened to those users

what's actually happened to those users what's actually happened to those users you know and you got this kind of again

you know and you got this kind of again you know and you got this kind of again this this sort of tension that exists

this this sort of tension that exists this this sort of tension that exists where the advertiser might sort of say

where the advertiser might sort of say where the advertiser might sort of say well actually you know 800 of those

well actually you know 800 of those well actually you know 800 of those clips are rubbish you know but you know

clips are rubbish you know but you know clips are rubbish you know but you know 200 of them will go on to do something

200 of them will go on to do something 200 of them will go on to do something unless one side talks to another and

unless one side talks to another and unless one side talks to another and post back do allow that then you know

post back do allow that then you know post back do allow that then you know it's it's it's that mistrust continues

it's it's it's that mistrust continues it's it's it's that mistrust continues and and it's not in the benefit of any

and and it's not in the benefit of any and and it's not in the benefit of any of either party I don't think because

of either party I don't think because of either party I don't think because yes there are fraudulent companies out

yes there are fraudulent companies out yes there are fraudulent companies out there that are going to try and you know

there that are going to try and you know there that are going to try and you know run traff but postbacks can you know

run traff but postbacks can you know run traff but postbacks can you know solve that quite quickly as well where

solve that quite quickly as well where solve that quite quickly as well where you can see traffic adents coming in and

you can see traffic adents coming in and you can see traffic adents coming in and you can block sub IDs that don't meet

you can block sub IDs that don't meet you can block sub IDs that don't meet criteria that you know you want whether

criteria that you know you want whether criteria that you know you want whether too high conversion ratees or if you use

too high conversion ratees or if you use too high conversion ratees or if you use something like apps fer there 360 tool

something like apps fer there 360 tool something like apps fer there 360 tool you can link that to tracking platform

you can link that to tracking platform you can link that to tracking platform like everflow and just block that up a

like everflow and just block that up a like everflow and just block that up a click level so as these clicks are

click level so as these clicks are click level so as these clicks are happening if let's say the fraud level

happening if let's say the fraud level happening if let's say the fraud level on M 360 is over 3% or whatever this can

on M 360 is over 3% or whatever this can on M 360 is over 3% or whatever this can automatically start blocking those sub

automatically start blocking those sub automatically start blocking those sub be because it's all about pruning the

be because it's all about pruning the be because it's all about pruning the tree rather than chopping the whole tree rather than chopping the whole tree rather than chopping the whole thing down right um because there there

thing down right um because there there thing down right um because there there is kind of gold in those Hills as it

is kind of gold in those Hills as it is kind of gold in those Hills as it were but uh you don't want to just and

were but uh you don't want to just and were but uh you don't want to just and shut the door no and and I think that

shut the door no and and I think that shut the door no and and I think that could be another conversation for just

could be another conversation for just could be another conversation for just talking about uh blocking of clicks and

talking about uh blocking of clicks and talking about uh blocking of clicks and filtering things out on both the

filtering things out on both the filtering things out on both the affiliate side as well as the

affiliate side as well as the affiliate side as well as the operator yeah sure and then last

operator yeah sure and then last operator yeah sure and then last question which is what do you see of the

question which is what do you see of the question which is what do you see of the future of a marketing as it intersects

future of a marketing as it intersects future of a marketing as it intersects with business

with business with business intelligence yeah well I think as we

intelligence yeah well I think as we intelligence yeah well I think as we sort of initially discussed and I I

sort of initially discussed and I I sort of initially discussed and I I guess the theme of this conversation is

guess the theme of this conversation is guess the theme of this conversation is help online marketers need tools to help

help online marketers need tools to help help online marketers need tools to help them optimize all of the the Myriad of

them optimize all of the the Myriad of them optimize all of the the Myriad of of data that they get about consumers

of data that they get about consumers of data that they get about consumers you know it's becoming more competitive

you know it's becoming more competitive you know it's becoming more competitive to buy a consumer to do something it

to buy a consumer to do something it to buy a consumer to do something it becomes more there's more impera of

becomes more there's more impera of becomes more there's more impera of getting things like lifetime value of

getting things like lifetime value of getting things like lifetime value of that user and increasing the average

that user and increasing the average that user and increasing the average revenue per user and so on and so I

revenue per user and so on and so I revenue per user and so on and so I think as we you know as there's more and

think as we you know as there's more and think as we you know as there's more and more data that's just being generated

more data that's just being generated more data that's just being generated just generally you know on the internet

just generally you know on the internet just generally you know on the internet I mean if you think since May chat GPT

I mean if you think since May chat GPT I mean if you think since May chat GPT launch for you know January of when it

launch for you know January of when it launch for you know January of when it last year you know can you imagine how

last year you know can you imagine how last year you know can you imagine how quickly the internet grown in terms of

quickly the internet grown in terms of quickly the internet grown in terms of just the sheer number of actual physical

just the sheer number of actual physical just the sheer number of actual physical sites and all the rest of it that and sites and all the rest of it that and sites and all the rest of it that and all the data point so I think within all

all the data point so I think within all all the data point so I think within all that noise people need tools to help

that noise people need tools to help that noise people need tools to help them distill data to its essence of like

them distill data to its essence of like them distill data to its essence of like okay we understand these consumers are

okay we understand these consumers are okay we understand these consumers are coming in and these users have a higher

coming in and these users have a higher coming in and these users have a higher lifetime value than these users where

lifetime value than these users where lifetime value than these users where are they coming from what are the

are they coming from what are the are they coming from what are the features that make that user value as a

features that make that user value as a features that make that user value as a user high value users and then how do we

user high value users and then how do we user high value users and then how do we get more of that and how do we strip

get more of that and how do we strip get more of that and how do we strip that stuff out but what people don't

that stuff out but what people don't that stuff out but what people don't want is to log into 550 different

want is to log into 550 different want is to log into 550 different systems Stitch data together and try and

systems Stitch data together and try and systems Stitch data together and try and work it out they want like aggregated

work it out they want like aggregated work it out they want like aggregated views of all of that data and they want

views of all of that data and they want views of all of that data and they want the system to start making those

the system to start making those the system to start making those suggestion back to them of like hey this

suggestion back to them of like hey this suggestion back to them of like hey this is what we're starting to see you know

is what we're starting to see you know is what we're starting to see you know there's a lot of kind of um intelligence

there's a lot of kind of um intelligence there's a lot of kind of um intelligence and AI that that that that there and

and AI that that that that there and and AI that that that that there and lots of stuff that we you know interface

lots of stuff that we you know interface lots of stuff that we you know interface with we need that kind of

with we need that kind of with we need that kind of ched um distillation data that comes

ched um distillation data that comes ched um distillation data that comes back to onl Market say hey we've noticed

back to onl Market say hey we've noticed back to onl Market say hey we've noticed this micro Trend that Happ you know

this micro Trend that Happ you know this micro Trend that Happ you know because sometimes within all the noise

because sometimes within all the noise because sometimes within all the noise it's difficult to see particular if it's

it's difficult to see particular if it's it's difficult to see particular if it's residing in lots of different

residing in lots of different residing in lots of different spaces and that's a sum a good Summary

spaces and that's a sum a good Summary spaces and that's a sum a good Summary of why you know we wanted to have this

of why you know we wanted to have this of why you know we wanted to have this affiliate bi podcast to talk about these

affiliate bi podcast to talk about these affiliate bi podcast to talk about these things and going how do we optimize

things and going how do we optimize things and going how do we optimize automate standardize things and uh I

automate standardize things and uh I automate standardize things and uh I think it it starts with these think it it starts with these think it it starts with these conversations so Zach uh you're welcome

conversations so Zach uh you're welcome conversations so Zach uh you're welcome on as another guest I have way more

on as another guest I have way more on as another guest I have way more questions that I could easily do for a

questions that I could easily do for a questions that I could easily do for a second episode uh how can people get a

second episode uh how can people get a second episode uh how can people get a hold of you sure yeah I mean they can

hold of you sure yeah I mean they can hold of you sure yeah I mean they can connect with me on LinkedIn so Zach

connect with me on LinkedIn so Zach connect with me on LinkedIn so Zach measures is my name think it's made up

measures is my name think it's made up measures is my name think it's made up that I work in attribution with the name

that I work in attribution with the name that I work in attribution with the name measures and

measures and measures and but Google me uh and then you can reach

but Google me uh and then you can reach but Google me uh and then you can reach me at Zach everflow doio and happy to

me at Zach everflow doio and happy to me at Zach everflow doio and happy to answer any questions or share like case

answer any questions or share like case answer any questions or share like case studies that that that we've seen so

studies that that that we've seen so studies that that that we've seen so like um I think it's kind of important

like um I think it's kind of important like um I think it's kind of important to uh yeah share the knowledge I'm I'm

to uh yeah share the knowledge I'm I'm to uh yeah share the knowledge I'm I'm very happy to do that and thank you for

very happy to do that and thank you for very happy to do that and thank you for again letting me on the program today

again letting me on the program today again letting me on the program today once again uh your uh podcast what is

once again uh your uh podcast what is once again uh your uh podcast what is the name of it for the guest I the

the name of it for the guest I the the name of it for the guest I the everflow podcast you just SE search for

everflow podcast you just SE search for everflow podcast you just SE search for everflow um within um Apple you'll find

everflow um within um Apple you'll find everflow um within um Apple you'll find it uh we've got we've got a podcast

it uh we've got we've got a podcast it uh we've got we've got a podcast there we call it fireside chat I believe

there we call it fireside chat I believe there we call it fireside chat I believe but if you search everflow you'll be

but if you search everflow you'll be but if you search everflow you'll be able to find that great we'll include

able to find that great we'll include able to find that great we'll include that in the show note thanks again no

that in the show note thanks again no that in the show note thanks again no worries pleasure

thank you for tuning in to the affiliate thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to

bi podcast I'd like to take this time to bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a Reading

ask for a small favor to leave a Reading ask for a small favor to leave a Reading and Review wherever you listen to your

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