Why conversion rate optimization matters in SEO with Jesse Ringer

I strongly believe that you cannot have great marketing whether that is SEO PPC social media you can't have that kind of presence and not have good cro because you can get a million people to your website and if zero of them buy from you because your experience sucks you don't have a good business if you generate 10,000 clicks tomorrow and four people bought for you that's a terrible Roi so you need to have conversion rate optimization thinking throughout your work like how do you get the

people that are taking the time to come to your website how do you get them to take action action I'm John Wright and you're listening to affiliate bi the business intelligence and affiliate marketing podcast brought to you by sta [music] welcome to the phbi podcast today we're chatting with Jesse ringer who is the founder of metric method and Metric which is an SEO agency based in Vancouver BC Canada Jesse's background covers it all from marketing social media PR and including video production Jesse welcome to the

show hey John thanks for having me so I listed off a ton of skills there that you've gained over the last 10 15 plus years how are those experiences shaping you to be an allround SEO and how does that make you operate differently than maybe what other people think about when it comes to SEO to SEO yeah I I think the first part that people often associate with SEO is that it's often very technical and very content focused there is a lot of jargon in our

industry but I think that in today's world of of SEO and optimizing for search engines and the landscape that looks like I think being a well-rounded marketer is hugely important so I think that my background in everything from content to video to PR and everything in between has really allowed me to look at problems that our clients face in a way that is not as straightforward or I don't know traditional in an SEO space so I think it gives me a huge opportunity to provide better

Solutions and better opportunities for our clients just from having a a long career in this space would you say that YouTube is something that you leverage quite a bit for your clients clients clients yes and no I think we use it a fair bit for the clients that do generate a lot of video content and things like that but for the most part our clients don't do enough of it and so we use YouTube to an extent for keyword research and strategy development especially on the

content side of things to help figure out how people are you know potentially searching for these topics in other mediums but at the end of the day most of our clients are really focused on generating traffic and revenue through their website their website so SEO is dead in 2025 and I want to ask you how's business it's probably like the 10th year that SEO has been dead and it's good it's good I think that as long as there continue to be search engines whether that is

Google or Bing or maybe perplexity or chat gbt there's always going to be a need for businesses to generate traffic from those channels yeah businesses great yeah my personal take on that is anyone who does podcasts or put themselves out there let's say for example you in showcasing your skills and experience that makes you the go-to guy so if you've hired an SEO agency and Google's messed up your site and they tank and your SEO agency is like just give us more money they're eventually going

to find people like you that says hey I'm not going to hoard all my SEO secrets I'm actually going to put myself up there yeah and that's been a guiding principle in my life and in my career in that like when I first started an SEO an SEO Twitter was where I found out about algorithm updates and figured out new strategies and and saw what other people were doing in this space as professionals and I feel that so much of my knowledge has been learned from

other people's experiences and my own experiences that I think sharing that for the next generation and for other practitioners is just better for our industry industry industry if more companies are working with quality agencies then it just means that all of the good agencies that are out there are just going to be valued that much more and we don't have to fight to prove that we're a good agency because it'll just be common knowledge that these agencies are good and the work that we do is

good yeah I guess it goes to saying it's better to have a case study of a site that looks amazing and ranks well rather than a site that looks like garbage and you manage to pull out magic and say wow I don't know how did that but that is also pretty magical right totally yeah absolutely and to your point like it's super easy to hide behind Shady tactics in the SEO world and it creates a lot of distrust for people who are looking for authentic and

quality SEO folks so do you think it's possible that people can just run businesses without actually setting up not just only a website but a website without content YouTube was one example example we've seen a lot of people they're selling their SEO strategies or agency work just by going on social media to be very honest I've done a ton on LinkedIn and if I can actually if I had to lose all my channels I'd be do not take LinkedIn away from me that's my goal yeah

yeah I've seen it I've seen businesses that do well with a very basic website a landing page with their value proposition the name of their business and an email address and yes certainly being a person that's grown up with the internet and being firsts in how effective your business can grow through digital channels it I would be very worried if you were a business in 2025 and beyond that didn't have a website that didn't use the website for lead generation or Business Development and obviously like

built a whole business and agency around the value that a I can bring to a business and yeah I yeah I think it would be nuts not to have a website and to your point too like LinkedIn is huge Channel I think it's underutilized and it has grown into a a feed that is not just about going hey I got a new job or hey I'm looking for work to like hey here are some ideas and strategies that I'm experimenting with or trying out or check

out this new case study or look at what these other brands are doing that's super impressive and so I think linkedin's really evolved into a way to communicate our value as thinkers and creators and marketers that wasn't there even five years ago yeah and I think uh similar to Twitter SLX it's also another channel for staying on top of whatever industry you're in it doesn't even matter if you're in a localized spot where it's okay I do I don't know dry cleaning and that's okay maybe

that doesn't sound interesting but follow the people that are in the space and if they ever have anything interesting to write about you least want to stay on top of it and go is this leading to business or are you missing out on some opportunity yeah I think staying in touch with your peers and your industry is huge for the success of any business and for a dry cleaning space like what if a new chemical came out that was like half the cost of the current

chemicals and clean twice as fast wouldn't you want to know about it and it's obviously an oversimplification of it all but that's real with SEO with Google like they're doing algorithm updates almost every week at this point there was one on Friday January 9th and all these people are idea like oh yeah I'm not paying attention to it all the time but then I go and look at the DAT I'm like oh yeah you can see there was an algorithm update and so you can start

to Pivot and adjust your strategies accordingly and make sure that your clients are not failing or your own business hasn't been hit hard by it so yeah I rely on the SEO Community for a ton of our work and ATT ton of our insights and stuff great so you just ruined my evening where now I'm going to spend uh one to two hours just going on hups going all right let's see which affiliate sites got got nailed really bad and that's like a great evening I'm

sure you have fun doing that no to be honest I actually enjoy doing it it's from my point of view because what we do as a company we're trying to stay on top of the trends for affiliate marketers especially in a particular niche in I gaming so the more I know about what's going on I'm surprised that how much people don't know what is happening around them and maybe there's just a market available for sharing this knowledge look at what's the guy's name Glenn alup who's

got detail.com like that article and Report it's even if you're not working in that space you're like I'm still going to digest it this is cool stuff yeah and I think to add to that it's just look at what's happening in other Industries as the world goes and as other Industries and markets go so to Le yours AI came in and like that was all over the place and it's impacting SEO folk now it's it's imp acting content writers it's not just for creating cool pictures

or writing crazy jargon it's used as a tool now and it impacts everyone's work and everyone's ability to generate money and yeah I think you have to have a pretty Broad worldview and see what's happening out there to know where you should focus your own energy down the road it's actually a real good strategy that I do every once in a while it's okay if I'm trying to rank something whether it's local or whatever I go give something that's similar but not in the same city

it's like trying to help someone with like their mixed martial arts gym and then go okay let's look at boxing in another similar small town you get a lot of great ideas that way and yeah it's just sounds like Common Sense market research but I like going to different Industries going what have they done that's an interesting way of leveraging content or platforms oh yeah I do the same I read a ton of different like entrepreneur magazines and then ideas around business and even just like

in Creative spaces like design or architecture and things like that because how they solve problems can very easily translate in certain aspects into like the work that we're doing and the problems we're trying to solve and it also makes it easier for me to connect with our clients and our prospects because I'll have a touch Point around the industry that they're in that we can be like this problem persists for you here's how this other company is solving that or or helping to alleviate some of

that pain point so yeah it makes just makes us better at connecting overall it makes us smarter and more engaged okay the next uh question it's a series of questions I'm putting you a bit on the hot seat but I'm doing it for a good cause so I've Got Friends that they're always asking me for help on their SEO stuff I don't do SEO Consulting anymore I haven't done it in a long time and to be honest I I didn't do the best job of it

but when I give them the strategies it's almost like they don't believe it and I think maybe they'd be better hearing it from a pro so who knows this might actually lead to some some referrals yeah maybe yeah okay so here's a a first case study what would you do for a website that does AI betting tips it has almost no content like it's got a homepage and a couple category pages and it almost has no links like the SEO visibility is basically zero with the

exception of some Twitter X content but it is an actually awesome product that just people aren't aware of yeah for contacts say how are they currently getting clients getting clients they're not that's the the actual bad part it's they're trying to get some through Twitter but I don't think the traffic volume is enough and I don't think people are catching on what I actually think might be hurting them is possibly a brand presence where if someone's actually following them on Twitter and it's look they're actually

you got a guy who's producing all these betting tips and it's it pretty much will W make money if you follow them but I think what happens is when people go on the links the site actually looks okay it could be better but I just think it's lacking content it's lacking that Authority that says how did we do this actually you know what it's like just you asking the question is like helping me solve their problem I think just for them explaining how they do it

like why are they different what makes it AI I think that would actually be a great start for them yeah yeah and to add to that that the thoughts around what is the value proposition what makes them worthy or worth the investment is it easy to sign up and in those cases too betting is a huge space AI is obviously a big black box of information demonstrating their expertise demonstrating like use cases demonstrating case studies examples of successful successful betting schemes and so forth but also

creating content around you know that audience what they care about you know why do they need AI why do they need this tool for our other software type clients we'll always make sure that they address addess the pain points who it's for and all the features that they have and if it is just going AI for beding that's pretty broad but if it is I don't know AI for nailing your basketball parlay or how do you win your pool for football like those types of things

are much more valuable like the person isn't just going to go I want to be better at beding beding that's not enough right like really it is about they're usually likely coming to you coming to this because they have identified that they are not good at choosing choosing man the winning teams or the point spread and show show those people like okay here's the tool for helping you pick point spread here's how you're going to do it for you your parlays and those types of things

and demonstrating that information and helping to prove that AIT out a bit more I think is where you go with it I don't know the industry well enough but those are just some ideas that I have from past experience with like software companies and yeah so sounds at least the common terms in betting so that's I watch a lot of sports sports I don't bet uh personally but I do see the odds and I see all the betting schemes and so forth yeah the odds are

just uh tossed down your throat whether you want to actually pay attention to them like every intermission is no the plus minus is that this and yeah this team looks more favorable anyway yeah it's overdone okay the next company is I've got a friend he builds or designs luxury lighting and it starts at $1,000 and goes up to 15K so it's not cheap stuff and when I started doing research I was like wow okay without a doubt there's not a lot of companies that kind of

put themselves in that space but he's looking to hire an SEO agency and I basically said these are some of the strategies you could do uh personally what I gave him as my advice was I thought digital PR and Link building could help quite a bit where it's such a unique topic that anyone that does anything in let's say architecture interior design looking for this content I don't even think you have to pay them for it so I think if uh he did stuff like that

it would help attract that eventual buyer that says I want to drop 50k and Lighting in my or whatever it is yeah my first question then to your friend would be like is it the interior designers that they're targeting or is it the homeowner good different experiences and on one hand having a e-commerce component would matter but I don't think people are going to drop a, plus dollars on a lighting fixture that they haven't seen up close in that sense going with interior designers or yeah

maybe a project like development firm that is lighting out all of the entryways for a new building or or something like that I would figure like align on what that that looks like and who that target audience is and then again it it really comes down to yeah PR and Link building I think in those visual spaces lighting architecture Furniture where it's very visual you need a lot of coverage in those things getting into yeah digital magazines or magazines that have a digital Edition matter a

great deal featured on Instagram featured on Pinterest those types of things play a big factor in it the challenge with a lighting company an individual one too is that you're up against big players like you're up against like in Vancouver we have Robinson Lighting like you're up against massive companies and a variety of other outlets that are also looking for that business I would say that the pr and that connection building is a bigger part than than speaking to trying to necessarily rank for luxury lighting

or whatever keywords they would want to Target so this could be like like the anti- SEO Playbook where you could actually say look just focus on Business Development if it's if the if your potential buyer is like a designer or an architect you can just find them on LinkedIn there's no SEO there with one exception that when you do the digital PR that might be the way they actually discover you in the first place yeah yeah and like this would require a bit of user research

and like customer research the design companies and stuff that I follow on interest Instagram and such like they are very much talking about the the locality of how they're made the products and the materials that they use they tell the story behind each fixture each product they design and the inspiration for it and using that as a a tool because I would say people on the west coast that are perhaps looking for to design their home in a traditional West Coast feel would want to have

light fixtures by folks who live on this side of the country and I think in this space to Awards and recognition go a long way and earning that and then presenting that on your website be a big part and then again I like I will probably recommend this for the all of the the case studies here but content like how do you and maybe it's visual content maybe it's YouTube content like how you design your products how you manufacture them what makes them special like where

what's the story behind it because I think at that price point too people want to be able to go look at this sculptural light that I just bought it's designed by S and St like it made from this stuff it uses the hair of a white Walsh and all that kind of stuff sells the product like yeah so being really articulated about that stuff goes a real way yeah and would you say that maybe even uh for an SEO Playbook here that e-commerce seems to be

getting a lot more attention these days when we look at affiliate marketing I think affiliate content is not ranking as much as e-commerce and I've know so many seos that they're like I'm pivoting hardcore in e-commerce so maybe this would be an actual Playbook because when I looked at some of the other places where you could buy lighting buy lighting buy lighting Etsy was a place that actually had some expensive lights in there like we're talking $1,000 plus type of lighting so the Beast spoke stuff

is on different platforms and it ranked I found it yeah and I think to your point like having just diverse channels yeah Etsy could be super effective Pinterest Google shopping if people know what they're looking for and they know what it is the the dimensions and things like that and that goes a long way but yeah there will be people that want to just buy like they saw you at a trade show and then okay I'm going to go online and buy it and make it

simple yeah with all of that like clear and transparent pricing and then Pathways to making a purchase yeah it it it feels like a no-brainer in a lot of Industries these days just have it there even if it's not a huge driver it still makes a big difference okay the next one every once in a while I like to ask a self-serving question so the next one is more to do with what we do as a company so I'll just give you a quick uh context

so we got assass tool for faic marketers that grabs all their data like their click data and the Revenue data in one place currently it's focused on I gaming but we plan to go outside of it and we've actually had a couple customers say hey John I'm looking for someone to buy either my affiliate accounts or my website do you know any buyers so we actually went through an experience many years ago do you know Flippa and Empire flippers I do I subscribed to there okay

perfect so I sold the site in flipa quite a few years ago and I went through the experience of going how do I validate my Revenue long story short they wouldn't accept our app as uh Revenue validation we now have that and we actually have customers that they're actually using SE access to show the Revenue data without compromising anything so we're thinking about actually building an m&a Marketplace like just something really basic like creating a page not making it super technical so what would you have

for strategy for us to to do this Beyond just making announcements saying hey here's a press release we're now launching this you just sign in and it's it's almost hand off yeah so we've done a lot of marketplaces over the years in a variety of spaces what generally works well like one you need to have traffic to show the people that are going to be paying you the money that you're worth their time so that has to take on its own entity and you can make

content that serves both sides of this Market especially in the blog space of yeah affiliate Market marting dues and don'ts all that kind of stuff getting into the business getting out of the business how to optimize that experience and you can write a lot of content around that stuff because that'll serve the whole audience that you're trying to Target your business Pages like your homepage can be split I would say but I would say that you would want to have the majority of your business Pages

at least 70% of it focus on the people that are going to pay you money whatever ever you decide is going to be where you get your money from whether that is the people selling the site you get a commission that way or the buy the people the buyers might have to like subscription fees whoever that is and I I'm not going to suggest which one it should be that's up to you that's who you should focus all of that content to because if you start

focusing on the people that don't have to pay and just have to create an account you're missing out on the opportunity to communicate your value proposition of why this website is important and why someone should give you money to list their website or their app with you okay so we we've seen it like so many times these double-ended markets where you need both sides to come to your website website the the free side of things will be a lot easier for traffic generation you can run

ads you can get sponsorships you can do all kinds of stuff join Reddit all that kind of stuff but who you really need are the businesses that are going to sell their their websites who have you make sure it's really clear to them what it is what the value is that your website is going to do for them okay then couple questions on top of that so the main app of what we have it's already got the homepage it's got the features who's this for so

I don't think we we would make that the homepage we could give it its own page but would you say that it's even worthwhile create a subdomain saying it's a special feature or even its own domain so to give you a quick uh context when I Googled Buy sell affiliate sites Flippa and Empire flippers are number one number two and the ones that rank after they don't look very compelling like when I click on them I'm like you might technically do this but there's nothing here

that's super profound in comparison to those top two and I'm not saying we're going to come in be number three instantly but I think we actually have an easy opportunity to rank and I'm just wondering do I rank for number three and four or just go for saw the number three regardless of paid subfolder subdomain my view of it is that third place still makes money you look at sports again to go back to that analogy we look at using a hockey example look at the

W gret Skies the avkin and the comic Davids of the world and they do well like people know them and they make money and they are their name is currency but then you could look at a second line person or a third line person and anyone that plays in the NHL is still making a good amount of money but you never have to win the Stanley Cup to be great you can still be like very good and make a ton of money and like tennis is

another example where like those people that are consistently ranking in the top 10 they're doing a good amount of money every time they may not be household names but they're still doing really well and in my mind is that's great you want to make money at this you don't need to be the greatest and best and remember through history for all time you just got to be better than the others than most and so being third is great and yeah to that point yeah having your

homepage be the marketplace and like selling that's great I caution against using subdomains and I caution against having separate domains because one it can create brand confusion to an extent but I would say more importantly from an SEO perspective there we gos dilute themselves and they don't you don't cultivate all of that link Equity from all the different links and all the trust and everything if you can keep it all on one domain it'll be better from an SEO perspective two it'll be a lot easier

to manage and just all that link Equity all that value that you'll build will go to one place rather than it being spread out across a bunch of different ones so it depends it depends yeah if there's a real use like I've seen it work well but I've also seen it where complete disaster in that all the subdomains for the brand that are paying this business are all a mess none of them rank particularly well when a person goes to click from a product on their

subdomain it takes them over to the primary domain and that's a weird experience it's a little bit jarring those types of things I would have a really good thought about what is the ROI or the lifetime value of the people that are selling the websites are they going to be selling multiples are they likely just to be selling one and never come back come back come back because if that's the case stick with like subfolders and individual pages but if they're going to be like building

an account building and flipping for a lot and all of like most of your business will come from people like that then maybe it makes sense to be on a subdomain so they can manage that separate experience separate experience okay lots to think about those are business questions those are not necessarily SEO questions yeah which I mean it goes with saying sometimes you need to ask the business questions before you give an SEO answer and looks yeah like I remember a guy um had started a

business giving small perks and bonuses to like hourly workers and it was called the perk and they got really deep into the building of the product and the they were really tied to this name and about four months down the road he was like I need a website and started researching it and every version of the perk or perk on a.c. co. was all taken and there was a business in the states with the exact same name doing the exact same thing and I'm an SEO

person but man just everyone listening just Google your business idea your business name first and make sure it's available make sure you can get the domain name because it really sucks when you have to get it's really hard to change once you realize you can't have that name not to mention trademarks as well yeah we years ago we had a company launch after us we were method and Metric we still are obviously but they were methods and metrics and we were getting a bunch of business

from people who they thought we were them and so I emailed him and told him the situation and he wrote back a few days later because he was also doing digital marketing he's we'll change our name yeah because we ranked number one we were ranking number one for their name and every variation of their name as well as ours so it would have been a very competitive situation otherwise yeah makes sense all right one more pseudo case study type of question so I've done a couple

case studies where I'm taking two slots affiliate websites they're a little different but I said they're not getting traffic one of them hasn't got off the ground properly the other one actually was just starting to get off the ground we're talking like April of 2024 and then another Google update and just put it back down one I actually think has a good USB but I think it's going to be difficult for for anyone to understand the USB so my suggestion to both of them was like

look one thing that I see work with slots Affiliates is both streaming and video and I said also when I did research because I love podcasts I I went on my phone I said okay let me see if there's actually any slots podcast and there's almost none there might be a couple and some that have started and then they stopped I I think would be this would be easy SEO rankings not to mention I think all the links you can generate from the podcast sphere are

strong signals that point in word to say hey if you're if you can't be the the top 10 streamer which is going to be difficult today you can at least be number one in a podcast what would you suggest to these guys if they're still not listening oh podcasts are huge they are a good source of content and opportunity they're hyper targeted I don't think many people outside of like affiliate industry will necessarily listen to this and now that it's great not great content it's just

not going to resonate with people right the same way and we have to I would definitely double down on that I think that podcasts are a great deal but to my earlier point of like you can still make a good living being third or fourth these Brands can be third or fourth in in streaming and stuff and by all means like I think that there's still a lot of money to be had in that space but they need to be really honest with themselves about it

and if they're small and they're still trying to figure out their revenue streams and like how to consistently generate Revenue Revenue this goes for SEO and this goes for every other kind of space like you got to start small and then grow it's not to say you can't grow for us in the early going it used to be like we would want to rank for SEO agency yeah great obviously like but that's super competitive every SEO agency wants to rank for SEO agency so we started

smaller like we I my first website J ringer.com today that's actually good now yeah I really yeah at the time as like yeah this is great I didn't really know what to do with the domain but that's a different story and like ranking like I'd be like SEO agency in downtown Vancouver SEO agency in yell toown and Target those these are neighborhoods in Vancouver yeah like just small areas to try and get that foothold and then you start to grow and that's how you can get

the like you go your big important head term whatever like affiliate marketing but then you could go you gota go near affiliate marketing for sports betting or affiliate marketing for podcasters or whatever go Niche go a bit smaller it's less competitive you can own that space a lot more and then you can start to build up to these other spaces and if you you start trying to compete with the big people that have already well established mean you're going to get your ass kicked and it's

going to be so humbling and it's not fun so start small get an audience and then start getting bigger yeah it's even worse when Google we don't even care about your website anyway so it doesn't even matter if you're on page four or just not index at all Google 10 websites in the whole internet like that's all the rest of us are just like lucky to be invited you know they just yeah Google makes money and that's all they really need to worry about yeah we

should just invest in Google they're they're just G to print more money with pmax and everything else right I got a call from the ads people today that's anyway that's a different story story yeah pivoting to cro which is conversion rate optimization one of my favorite topics what do you think people should be doing in terms of cro is this another example of okay they come here for SEO but they're like wait a minute we could actually potentially crank out an extra 50% Revenue just by

making some changes on your website absolutely you I strongly believe that you cannot have great marketing whether that is SEO PPC social media you can't have that kind of presence and not have good cro because you could get a million people to your website and if zero of them buy from you because your experience sucks you you don't have a good business if you generate 10,000 clicks tomorrow and four people bought from you that's a terrible Roi so you need to have conversion rate optimization thinking

throughout your work like how do you get the people that are taking the time to come to your website how do you get them to take action and that comes down to the marketing like the targeting and that experience but also studying what they click on and what they engage with and what kind of behav behaviors they take on your website we got a client years ago from the UK because they're like we're working with this Ad Agency and they just keep telling us to spend

more money but I don't trust them we're not getting any leads and so we went and looked at their website and their contact form was broken so no one could contact them and so this agency was like Hey if you double your ATS spend you will get double your leads and that's impossible if the form is broken and that's simple conversion rate optimizing you fix your form you're going to convert more if you take up the stop boards you make it like don't load your website

with popups and you make it really easy for people to like take action and you have a clear value proposition your checkout pages are fluid and smooth and it works well on mobile all that kind of stuff is great if you eliminate any unnecessary distractions those things go a long way and that's really what all of this is marketing is great branded awareness is great but if no one buys from you if no one gives you money you're not a business you're just a little passion

project so C is yeah it's hugely important like and cro clearly ties in with paid marketing where to be honest I've not done a lot of uh paid media for a long time because I've been very aware for whether it's SAS or affiliate marketing that it's pretty easy that when you don't pay attention to the little details you can just spend money you're waiting for the result at the end but some along the way there's optimization within and I think I think for a lot of

people just may be intimidating yeah yeah totally and Google makes it complex on purpose or seemingly complex so that people are deterred Google makes most of their revenue from Google ads and the more they blur they blur the work and make it harder for you to find stuff and harder for you to think that you're doing a good job and bombard you with warnings that your account sucks they make more money and yeah if you're running Google ads or really any paid Media stuff you got

to know all the ins and outs and you got to be really detailed about it because they will take your money they will gladly I worked for company that did a case study on uh the Domino's Pizza this was like before the pandemic and they had nothing to do with pizza they had nothing to do with abs really they were just talking about innovation but they let their ad campaign run on everything on their website and so they spent upwards of $10,000 on people searching for

Domino's Pizza because they let this blog post into beat and it was people like going Domino's near me Domino's phone number order Domino's online all these things Google show like 10 grand because it ran for a year he's just like yo like don't yeah yeah this is what I wish Google would actually fix cuz imagine if you're the user that goes to Google and this happens to you let's just imagine in a perfect world B actually never allows this to happen eventually in theory I'd think

that more people would gravitate towards place where this won't happen I hope this Futures around the corner but I'm not holding my breath for it yet because if you can spend ads on LinkedIn spend them on Facebook spend them on Google I've never had them say whoa John I see that you're clearly I could cut your ad spin in half they want me to double it yeah of course even if could show you how your ads could convert more they wouldn't no they wouldn't do it

like it's not happening yeah they're not economically incentivized to make us better at what we're doing next year or maybe there's going to be a chatbot version that's going to be I'm just gonna ask you the questions and then we'll figure it for you that' be great that that'd be cool app for someone to build last question is what do you see of the future of affiliate marketing as it intersects with business intelligence yeah I think that this is obviously the question I was like giving

most thought to when you send me the the question by the way I think that the internet is evolving in a way that meta's rules changing aside and things like that and Twitter becoming its own thing people still want connection and want to be able to take recommendations from people that they like no interest and I think affiliate marketing is an inval tool in that that if you are creating content that is authentic and sincere and truly helpful to people they will want to do business

and trust you when you recommend products like trust is such a rare thing on the internet these days that you have such an advantage just by being authentic about it and being strategic about the affiliate choices that you make and sharing that information and so in that sense I think that it's a massive underutilized channel for most businesses right like most businesses don't really offer affiliate programs unless they're of a certain size or maybe they're in the software space but like your tab it's it's in

my mind I think affiliate marketing is top tier version of influencer marketing and it's just it's just done differently it's done in such a hopefully authentic way that really helps create a good connection that when someone clicks that affiliate link and arrives on your product they know that they're in the right space they're in the place that they need to be because person that told them to be here cares about Their audience and knows that your product is great yeah that's a it's a great answer

because let's go to the opposite of that where you get like New York Times or fortune.com ranking for like best vpn's and you're like they have no business ranking for best VPN and you know what they're doing it basically it's just it's pure affiliate channnel they don't give a damn about who the best VPN they give a damn about who's the best paying VPN in order from one to 10 Fortune ranking for like best keeping gear oh my God this is nuts horrible I'm glad uh

Google fixed that one for us barely yeah solid answer you think people need to to understand it's almost like there's no course in trust there's courses to do affiliate marketing and they all say you got to build trust but it's almost like no one really doubles down on and go let's deconstruct what trust actually is and yeah that was well articulated Jesse thank you so much for doing this I want to pass it back to you how can people get a hold of you if you

want them to get a hold of you yeah I'd love to meet more people John thank you for having me first of all yeah I'm on LinkedIn Super Active there so Jesse ringer L light bulp there to keep the spam folk out of that request feed our website method metric.com we have tons of free resources there lots of content happy to connect there as well but yeah those are the two big channels LinkedIn and our website are really where I spend most of my time online

these days awesome and you can get that in the show notes Jesse thanks a lot for doing this yeah thank you John it was a great conversation thanks thank you for tuning in to the affiliate bi podcast I'd like to take this time to ask for a small favor to leave a raing and review wherever you listen to your podcast that helps [music] us expand our reach to rank higher in podcast directories and reach more listeners